KOTOR vs KOTOR 2

Team 1: Bastila Shan, Darth Malak, Darth Revan
Team 2: Darth Sion, Darth Traya, Darth Nihilus

Morals off, Bloodlusted etc.

Round 1: Nihilus can use his signature attack.
Round 2: Nihilus can't use his signature attack.

Kotor 2 wins both times. Darth Traya can rip the force form people, instantly killing them. she did this to 3 members of the jedi council, so im sure she can do it here

Yeah but wheren't those just some regular Jedi Masters? I'm pretty sure that Revan/Malak>>unknown Jedi Masters.

still, i think she could do it if she focused enough

Gonna wait to see what others have to say about this battle, if others also say that Traya can imobilize the whole team like you said then i can limit Traya or add another Jedi like Meetra to team 1 if it helps, if not sorry for the spite match :)

its just that one power she has. take away that power, and the fight could be more interesting.

btw, what is "Nilllus' signature attack"

Nihilus drain abilitiy

Bump

ummm... nihilus is the problem. malak and revan can drain force energy. malak did it on the star forge and revan is far more skilled than malak.

round 1 team 2

round 2 team 1

i can be swayed though

Do you think what KnightZero (see comment above) said about Traya being able to strip them from the Force like she did against those 3 Jedi Masters?

i think she would be able to do it. she did ti to the masters in seconds which resulted in them being killed instantly

She might be able to but the Masters were the strongest she used it on so logic dictates anyone stronger it wouldn't work on.

Anyone Team 2 stomps round 1, Team 1 7/10 round 2

Traya could never turn against Revan, she has a near religious adoration of him. To Traya, Revan was as a god. He was more powerful than she ever was. He mastered everything the Jedi had to teach him, then moved on and won the Mandalorian War.

Traya also states that Revan deeply studied Force Bonds, which Meetra Surik (The Exile) could form easily. Revan also stood against a being more powerful than the Sith Triumverate; The Sith Empror, Darth Vitiate. Pretty much every Force Ability the Trimverate possessed (sans Draining a Planet), Revan already knew.

According to the Black Rakata tribe, when the Revan came, he killed scores of their warriors with a storm of lightning from his hands. He also reached into their minds, stole their language and gifted them with the understanding of Galactic Basic so they could communicate.

Traya not turning against Revan because she adores him? That really doesn't matter in a battle does it, its a fantasy battle, how Traya feels about Revan doesn't apply here. As i heard it Vitiate isn't that much different from Nihilus. Vitiate as i heard could also drain but he needs some sort of ritual in order to do what Nihilus did, correct me if i'm wrong. You say that he stood against Vitiate, did he won in his fight or did the Sith Emperor won.

Anyone else?

@nibbit: It does matter if PIS are part of the equation. Either way, she's not in his league Revan is also the greatest duelist of his age. We know Meetra defeated both Sion and Traya by herself, and she has admitted to being weaker than Revan, still looking up to and idolizing him.

As for Nihilus, he's forced to because of his condition. He's little more than a spirit in a suit of armor, the only thing holding his form together, and unless he can consume large amounts of Force Energy, he'll wither and die off on his own. Vitiate didn't have that issue, because he did use a form of ritual which not only turned a planet into a Void in the Force, but made him immortal. He could also divide his essence among multiple bodies.

Revan can create force barriers to block the effects of Force Attacks, including Force Drain. Bastila can enhance both Revan and Malak with her Battle Meditation, which leaves her vulnerable, but Revan's already capable of doing most of the work on his own. He stomped Malak when Malak first challenged him, he smacked down Mandalore the Ultimate, and outmatched Echani General Yusanis (Traya's husband).

As for who won between Revan and Vitiate, the answer was quite obvious. Vitiate one, in part due to Scourge betraying Revan and Meetra. Scourge ran Meetra through the back, distracting Revan and giving Vitiate an opening to unload on him fully, such that Revan's mask left burn marks on his face. Scourge followed a vision that someone, someday, would kill the Emperor. Revan's battle with Vitiate that day was an uncertain one, the future unknown, a 50/50 chance that they could still fail an the galaxy would be destroyed.

Vitiate's ultimate goal was to cause the death of trillions at once, completing a ritual that would enable him to consume the Force of the entire galaxy, leaving it a complete dead zone, and transforming himself into a literal Force God to traverse the rest of the infinite universe and learn all things until the end of time. Safe to say this never comes to pass.

Vitiate sounds pretty powerfull. Another question how is Revan supossed to destroy Nihilus? as i understand it it took a wound in the force to stop him + he was weakend when Meetra and gang fought him. I heard that Nihlus can't be killed in normal ways.

KOTOR II stomps. Each and every one of team 2 is more powerful than team 1, the only exception being that Revan could be stronger than Kreia. That's it.

None of them can put down Sion. Nihilus is stronger than those in team 1.

When? Show me. Show me when Revan resisted Force Drain. And no, resisting Vitiate for 300 years does not count, because he was aided by Meetra's spirit.

Do you think that Kreia is able to strip them from the force like she did against those 3 Jedi Masters?

Eh. He's stronger than they were. There's the possibility, but I doubt it.

@nibbit: Nihilus is a force wound, and while that makes him tougher than most other force users, it also makes him more vulnerable. Unlike others like Vitiate, Sidious and co, Nihilus doesn't have control over his ability. All he can do is suppress his hunger a bit, but he still needs to feed on large amounts of Force/Life energy to maintain his existence.

Traya had tricked him into going to Telos, that was still a ruined world and incapable of giving him the amount of FE he needed to sustain himself, and so when Nihilus tried to drain an already deathly-ill planet, it only weakened him further because not only was there not any power for him to consume, but his hunger was in full swing when he stopped suppressing it, so his power was diminishing rapidly.

Nihilus' greatest weakness is his inability to sustain his own existence without an outside power. What affected him moreso was accidentally forming a Force Bond with Visas Marr, and killing her would drastically affect him as well. However, when fighting, Meetra refused to sacrifice Visas to stop Nihilus, and eventually he just became too weak to sustain himself.

It's an ability acquired while in game, also part of SW lore. And just about everyone and their grandma in SW, Jedi and Sith alike, can create Force Barriers. It's nothing new. All of them, in fact, create smaller ones around their hands to keep other Force Users from flinging their lightsabers out of their hands. Those that can't do this are either took weak or their opponent is more powerful than they are. Much like how Yoda yoinked Ventress' sabers from her hands in the 1st season of TCW.

You know, Nihilus did use his drain on Sion and it didn't kill him. Sion tried to break their alliance and failed, but it came down to either Nihilus still needed him, or didn't possess the power needed to actually kill him.

Traya had also described Revan as the "Heart of the Force itself", more as a statement of his power. Yet during his stint as Darth Revan as he conquered the Republic, Revan had turned worlds into Nexus Points of Dark Side power and used them to influence others, turned Jedi to the dark side, put them under his power, and brought many more to heel before him, making them turn against the Republic and joining his forces against their former compatriots.

Revan wields tremendous influence and power. Even before turning to the Dark Side, he was already more powerful than any of the Jedi Masters and Council members. He learned at a frightening pace, and even after the entire Council managed to erase his memory while he was near-death, and replace it with a new persona, he still recovered his Force potential, which had been stated to be limitless, and he was doing in weeks what had taken other Padawan's years to do.

Even with memory gone, Revan's combat skills were grades above even the toughest Republic Commando's, killing Sith Troopers, the BH Bendak Starkiller, and Sith/Dark Jedi on Taris before going to Dantooine to relearn the Force. One of the things that made Revan and Meetra Surik so dangerous in the KotoR games was their ability to fight, survive, live and win without the Force, something other Jedi/Sith are incapable of because they'd never been without the Force before. Never been without the foresight, the reflexes, the extra oomph that the Force gives.

Revan and Meetra have. They had to overcome these deficiencies themselves. Revan defeated some of the most skilled fighters in the known galaxy without his memories, and Meetra defeated the Six Echani Handmaidens in the Telos Academy, while only just beginning to rediscover her powers, and was not permitted to use Force Powers during all of the fighting until the final round, when they all stopped holding back.

Yeah, I... didn't read the rest of that post, since it was just relating to Star Wars lore and the stories (which I already know), and not actual feats.Also, in-game gameplay is not canon.

Not what I asked. I asked when Revan has shown the ability to resist Force Drain. Go ahead - show me. And I don't want the "he's powerful! He can do it!" excuse that your posts imply. Hard facts - I want actual evidence that Revan can resist Force Drain. Unless you can supply that, then this debate has ended.

Also, stick to just posting feats. Do not try to educate me on Star Wars lore.

You mean to tell me that a character who can't die unless his will is broken actually survived Force Drain? I'm shocked. Utterly floored.

That means nothing. If you're trying to say that Nihilus is incapable of killing via Force Drain... heh. That's really funny.

@jedixman: Actually the events of KotoR are canon, stated so by Drew Karypyshyn who wrote it. Reason why he didn't repeat those events in the SWTOR "Revan" novel was simply because "we already know that story", so there was no need to repeat things we already knew.

Also I never stated that Nihilus can't kill with Force Drain, only he failed to do so with Sion. You're also forgetting that the only reason Ninilus was able to drain Katarr was because of the number of Force Sensitives there, along with Jedi Masters who gathered there. It was a Requirement for his draining the planet. Without the power needed to fuel the draining, he'd have just burnt himself out on the attempt. Nihilus' Mass Drain is Situational, not something he can perform at a whim, because the ability itself places a strain on himself in the process.

This something Darth Bane has noted in using Death Field. Ultimately fueled by the people getting caught in it, but maintaining it puts a substantial drain on his own reserves. What Nihilus did was also unexpected and surprise, thus no one knew it was coming, so they had no defenses ready for it.

Revan can also absorb Force Energy. Not only this, but combines the taken energy with his own to retaliate with an even more powerful attack. It's almost too bad this isn't Reborn Revan. Because he could trounce the Sith Triumverate by himself. In his own words; "I am Revan Reborn. And before me, you are nothing."

I never said that KOTOR wasn't canon. Again: do not think I am ignorant on Star Wars continuity. To think as such would be a fallacy. What I said was that gameplay is not canon. The events are canon. Gameplay feats, not cinematic feats, are non-canon. So the abilities that Revan has or does not have in the game are not canon, because they are purely up to the player, and not a set rule. Clear? Good.

Not really. It's more that training a planet without Force Sensitives would not do anything for him. Draining Telos would have done nothing; it would have weakened him more.

This still has nothing to do with this thread...

I like how you still cannot prove that Revan is capable of resisting drain. You're trying to prove that you know about Star Wars, but you're not actually stating anything that is in the least substantial or relevant.

If, in your next reply, you cannot put forth evidence that Revan can resist the effects of Force Drain, then this debate is over due to lack of proper feats. Yes, it really is that simple, because nobody on Team 1 can utilize Force Drain (except Darth Malak, who is only shown to have used it on defenseless prisoners) or has shown the ability to resist its affects, while two people on team 2 can use Force Drain in a rather impressive fashion.

PS: Revan redirecting Lightning projected by a Sith Lord who has very few feats is not in the last comparable to resisting Force Drain.

That is the same as saying Revan has no Force Powers in KotoR because they were all "mechanics", when we know this isn't true. What Revan has, what he learns, and what he uncovers as part of the game, is canon. That includes force abilities such as Force Shield and Force Absorption. That in itself corresponds with the lore and Kreia/Traya stating "Revan had learned all the Jedi had to teach", a statement which would include such force abilities, which're not uncommon during this era.

Not really. It's more that training a planet without Force Sensitives would not do anything for him. Draining Telos would have done nothing; it would have weakened him more.

This still has nothing to do with this thread...

Actually it does, because it's already been stated and noted that Nihilus can't really control this ability. With him it's all-or-nothing. Trying to drain three individuals as opposed to a planetary population will prove more draining on him because of that lack of supply.

I like how you still cannot prove that Revan is capable of resisting drain. You're trying to prove that you know about Star Wars, but you're not actually stating anything that is in the least substantial or relevant.

You should also try and remember than Malak, in the last fight, was Force Draining multiple Jedi to sustain his power while fighting Revan. One would think if Malak already had that ability, why not use it on Revan? The simple answer is; he tried, but it wasn't effective and could not breach Revan's defenses.

Despite the fact Malak had the Dark Side aligned Star Forge bolstering his powers, and up to 10 Jedi in the room he was draining to revitalize himself everytime Revan beat him down, Revan still came out on top. And this wasn't just some mechanic. We do get a short cutscene where Malak runs off to Force Drain one of the Jedi captives, spouting nonsense about how weak Revan is and how he'll destroy him and blah blah blah. Revan kicked the crap out of him regardless.

PS: Revan redirecting Lightning projected by a Sith Lord who has very few feats is not in the last comparable to resisting Force Drain.

Revan did not "redirect" lightning, he Absorbed it from a Dark Council member, who was slapping around Meetra Surik and Scourge, then amplified the power and blasted it back at her, with such force it ripped through her defenses as if they weren't there and left her a scorched husk.

Meetra has been made out to be quite strong, defeating both Traya and Sion by herself, and had the potential to become infinitely more powerful as everyone who died close to her, made her a little bit stronger as she took in part of their force essence. The more she killed, the more powerful she'd become. She defeated the Sith Triumverate, and yet was still considered weaker than Revan.

So your entire argument surrounds around assumptions. I knew as much, but it's good for you to admit it. I know full well that Malak used Drain on the prisoners, which I mentioned. Prove, do not assume, that Malak used it on Revan, without using gameplay videos as your "evidence."

I do not appreciate your condescending attitude that revolves around trying to educate me on matters I am quite well versed in (which anyone can attest to). There is no evidence that he did, and there's really nothing you can put forth to prove that Revan can resist Drain - I would be quite interested if you could, but you can't. I will not continue this pointless debate until somebody can actually provide solid evidence. I recommend reading up on how debates work prior to engaging in one in the future: it involves solid facts, not making up information and using in-game feats to improve your argument.

Done.

@jedixman: I have given no such attitude, only giving what information is available and consists as part of the story. Saying things like "it doesn't happen" when the creators of the game state that it is canon, pretty much says on its own that it does happen. Malak uses Force Drain on Revan in the game during battle. We know the fight happens. Mechanics or not we know it's there, and DK himself has stated these events as canon.

While the specifics of each fight are not known, simply dismissing them because you don't believe it happened as suggested is more foolish than believing it could never happen. The fact remains that Malak has that ability, and to suggest he would not use it when it was clear he was outmatched, is just absurd.

We know the abilities of those involved. We also know that Revan was more versed in the Force than everyone else here put together. This is proven in the Darth Bane trilogy. Bane found more knowledge in Revan's holocron than had been collected in the Libraries of the Sith Academy on Korriban, and most of that knowledge and Force Rituals went completely over Bane's head. Some things so dangerous that Revan himself would not use them, such as the Thought Bomb ritual.

You should also try and be aware that I'm not trying to educate you, I'm giving this information so that Everyone can read it, so there are fewer questions that need be asked. And if you wanted attitude, the fact remained that Nihilus got beat by people who weren't planet-killers.

It is something I have said time and again, especially for SW related matchups; Plot and Circumstance can Kill Anyone.

In that respect, you claim that Nihilus' One ability makes the win, when conversely, he has shown no resistance himself to Mental attacks, nor skill in saber combat that'd allow him to even defend himself. We have story and evidence that Revan could reach into peoples minds and extract information forcefully. That he turned entire worlds into Nexuses of Dark Side power, and that he influenced and corrupted hundreds to thousands of Jedi.

Revan takes this.