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#1 Posted by ghost_rider1 (3420 posts) - - Show Bio

No morals

Both bloodlusted

Fight takes place on the beach

Who wins?

#2 Posted by morgrim (1020 posts) - - Show Bio

id go with jimbei

#3 Posted by saiyan_earthling (5379 posts) - - Show Bio

Jinbe

Online
#4 Posted by maesterwar (28 posts) - - Show Bio

Fishman Karate for the win as much as I like Kisame.

#5 Posted by PlasticBag (1222 posts) - - Show Bio

Jimbei kills Kisame.

#6 Posted by Simon_the_digger (2853 posts) - - Show Bio

Jimbei.

#7 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16129 posts) - - Show Bio

Can anyone post feats of Jimbei? I kind of need refreshing on him..

@ghost_rider1: Kisame's chakra sucking is compatible with One piece for the battle?

#8 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (7213 posts) - - Show Bio

Jinbei doesn't have chakra so allot of Kisame jutsus will not work.

#9 Posted by kagetaicho (1991 posts) - - Show Bio

Jinbei. Even If chakra does transfer over to One Piece, it would only matter when they are close so that Kisame can absorb his chakra, but I don't see that happening as Jinbei is far more devastating in H2H.

#10 Posted by Dredeuced (5353 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

Jimbei doesn't have chakra so allot of Kisame jutsus will not work.

I hate people using this argument. You assume characters powers work in cross universe battles, otherwise flash would never have the speed force and green lantern rings wouldn't have a central battery blah blah.

#11 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (7213 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced said:

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

Jimbei doesn't have chakra so allot of Kisame jutsus will not work.

I hate people using this argument. You assume characters powers work in cross universe battles, otherwise flash would never have the speed force and green lantern rings wouldn't have a central battery blah blah.

It's not an argument. Kisame jutsus are based around energy stealing. And for that matter he cannot steal energy that is not present.

You cannot take something from nothing.

#12 Posted by Dredeuced (5353 posts) - - Show Bio

Then just assume he takes his vitality, even if he can't hard counter his techniques. Chakra is not lacking in analogous status in other comics/manga. It's silly to nerf characters because you're making a fight cross universal.

#13 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (7213 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced: Now I can understand genjutsu because it can be equalized with telepathy or any other anti illusion powers. But this is like stealing the Power Cosmic form the Spectre.

#14 Posted by dondave (34581 posts) - - Show Bio

Jimbei

Online
#15 Posted by Dredeuced (5353 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

@Dredeuced: Now I can understand genjutsu because it can be equalized with telepathy or any other anti Illinois powers. But this is like stealing the Power Cosmic form the Spectre.

No, it's like saying Surfer can't use his power cosmic in a fight with a DC character to do all the things Power Cosmic is capable of. He can absorb energy, Narutoverse's energy is called Chakra, just assume his powers work.

Even then Jinbei would stomp him so it doesn't really matter.

#16 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (7213 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced said:

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

@Dredeuced: Now I can understand genjutsu because it can be equalized with telepathy or any other anti Illinois powers. But this is like stealing the Power Cosmic form the Spectre.

No, it's like saying Surfer can't use his power cosmic in a fight with a DC character to do all the things Power Cosmic is capable of. He can absorb energy, Narutoverse's energy is called Chakra, just assume his powers work.

Even then Jinbei would stomp him so it doesn't really matter.

Surfer Power is energy manipulation same as genjutsu (although genjutsu is one type of manipulation) not stealing.

#17 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16129 posts) - - Show Bio

Someone Just post Jimbei feats..

#18 Posted by Rumble Man (11119 posts) - - Show Bio

Kisame uses water, Jinbe gets stronger with water. Kisame sucks chakra which is nonexistent, he gets handily whupped.

@PrinceAragorn1: So long as you wont downplay them

#19 Posted by Rumble Man (11119 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced said:

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

Jimbei doesn't have chakra so allot of Kisame jutsus will not work.

I hate people using this argument. You assume characters powers work in cross universe battles, otherwise flash would never have the speed force and green lantern rings wouldn't have a central battery blah blah.

No - fights are on 'neutral' battlefield

Flash does not depend on others having speedforce for power to work

SS does not depend on others having power cosmic to work

#20 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (7213 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rumble Man: Completely forgot Jinbei was fast. Who would have thought.

#21 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16129 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rumble Man: I thought it was chakra given a nature transformation.. like, you don't expect him to spout that much of water, do you? Chakra sounds more likely..

The feats are good, but I'm pretty sure kisame could handle those. He's pretty strong himself. Like if he uses the giant shark missile.. or something similar..

And if we're going to cross universes, we should take chakra as energy, as it's just mixture of physical energy (which, of course is present), and spiritual (the part we generally discuss about, most people say it exists in all living things, and some say no it doesn't. But taking chakra out is like putting flash in a battle without speed force, Auto lose.

#22 Posted by Mortein (2724 posts) - - Show Bio
#23 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (7213 posts) - - Show Bio

@PrinceAragorn1: No one said he cannot manipulate his own store of chakra we are against taking energy form a non applicable source.

#24 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (16129 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr_Ingenuity: Well, he could still suck out the physical energy, even if op guys don't have spirit energy as you say, they still have physical strength. (If he can suck a mixture of both, he can suck one of them) And he's shown he can absorb energies of stuff like explosion (Ten ten's explosion tags's exploded point blank, but didn't do jack to him)

#25 Posted by Dredeuced (5353 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rumble Man said:

@Dredeuced said:

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

Jimbei doesn't have chakra so allot of Kisame jutsus will not work.

I hate people using this argument. You assume characters powers work in cross universe battles, otherwise flash would never have the speed force and green lantern rings wouldn't have a central battery blah blah.

No - fights are on 'neutral' battlefield

Flash does not depend on others having speedforce for power to work

SS does not depend on others having power cosmic to work

Flash's powers depend on the other character having speed. People are just caught up on the semantics of the word chakra because that's how Narutoverse explains people using supernatural powers. It's silly.

#26 Posted by Rumble Man (11119 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr_Ingenuity: People do not get turned into shichibukai for being wimps

@PrinceAragorn1 said:

@Rumble Man:

And if we're going to cross universes, we should take chakra as energy, as it's just mixture of physical energy (which, of course is present), and spiritual (the part we generally discuss about, most people say it exists in all living things, and some say no it doesn't. But taking chakra out is like putting flash in a battle without speed force, Auto lose.

Jinbei can remold the missile or take it and amp up, nature transformation? as in molding water (Which jimbei can do). It is water as when Kisame fused with his samehada to fight killa be.

Nope, in neutral universe flash gets speed force (enemy does not get)

In neutral universe Kisame gets chakra (he was designed that way), Jimbei does NOT get chakra

Physical energy? Might Guy and Rock Lee kick ass w/o that wimpy chakra stuff

#27 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16129 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced said:

@Rumble Man said:

@Dredeuced said:

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

Jimbei doesn't have chakra so allot of Kisame jutsus will not work.

I hate people using this argument. You assume characters powers work in cross universe battles, otherwise flash would never have the speed force and green lantern rings wouldn't have a central battery blah blah.

No - fights are on 'neutral' battlefield

Flash does not depend on others having speedforce for power to work

SS does not depend on others having power cosmic to work

Flash's powers depend on the other character having speed. People are just caught up on the semantics of the word chakra because that's how Narutoverse explains people using supernatural powers. It's silly.

And chakra is just a name given for mixture of physical and spiritual energy.. even if it's assumed that op guys don't have spirit energy, how can a guy not have physical energy? lol he won't move, eat, drink, much less fight..

#28 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (7213 posts) - - Show Bio

@PrinceAragorn1: Well Morning Tiger finished Kisame off so a big enough blow can kill him if he is incapable of absorbing it.

#29 Posted by Rumble Man (11119 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced:

Flash's powers depend on the other character having speed. People are just caught up on the semantics (explain) of the word chakra because that's how Narutoverse explains people using supernatural powers. It's silly.

Not really, Infinite mass punches happen regardless of whether the enemy is moving or not . Speed force works even if opponent does not have speed force.

#30 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (7213 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rumble Man: You speak the truth.

So I wounder how strong Buggy has gotten.

#31 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16129 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

@PrinceAragorn1: Well Morning Tiger finished Kisame off so a big enough blow can kill him if he is incapable of absorbing it.

He was standing idiot-like, "o yea, my attack absorbs chakra and gets bigger." Of course he was going to be beat lol.

But still, he has dealt with freaking jinchuriki alone.. I'd rather not take him lightly.

#32 Posted by Rumble Man (11119 posts) - - Show Bio

@PrinceAragorn1: Spiritual Energy =/= Soul, and every fiction has different mechanism (like anime/comics). Does every character have 'Innocence' like in D-Gray man? Does every character have 'Dying Will Flames' like in Katekyo Hitman Reborn? Does every character have 'Stands' like in JJBA? Does every character have ' Nen' like in Hunter x Hunter? Does every character have 'Haki' like in one piece?

it is NOT the same

#33 Posted by Rumble Man (11119 posts) - - Show Bio

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

@Rumble Man: You speak the truth.

So I wounder how strong Buggy has gotten.

Must be his troops of inmates freed from Impel down (he has mad charisma, would not be surprised if he has king's haki or a HAX application of bara-bara no mi.) Arguably he would be a good challenge to Law

#34 Posted by Dredeuced (5353 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rumble Man said:

@Dredeuced:

Flash's powers depend on the other character having speed. People are just caught up on the semantics (explain) of the word chakra because that's how Narutoverse explains people using supernatural powers. It's silly.

Not really, Infinite mass punches happen regardless of whether the enemy is moving or not . Speed force works even if opponent does not have speed force.

You're way missing the point.

My explanation of the semantics is, everytime a naruto character comes up, everyone and their mothers go "BUT people who aren't in the naruto universe don't have any chakra!!!" Which is A: False, as chakra is just bog standard life energy that everyone has and B: silly because you'd assume certain powers work cross universally, like One Piece characters ability to hit intangible opponents with Haki. Kisame's main power is sucking the energy out of attacks, while he obviously specializes in chakra because that's Narutoverse's main energy source, he's sucked explosions and physical attacks.

He has been beaten by powerful enough physical blows from Gai, Bee, and the Raikage, which Jinbei can easily recreate and outdo by an enormous margin, so it's not a very close fight in the slightest, but I don't think the go to reason should be that Kisame's powers just don't work because Jinbei isn't a naruto character.

#35 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16129 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rumble Man said:

@Mr_Ingenuity: People do not get turned into shichibukai for being wimps

@PrinceAragorn1 said:

@Rumble Man:

And if we're going to cross universes, we should take chakra as energy, as it's just mixture of physical energy (which, of course is present), and spiritual (the part we generally discuss about, most people say it exists in all living things, and some say no it doesn't. But taking chakra out is like putting flash in a battle without speed force, Auto lose.

Jinbei can remold the missile or take it and amp up, nature transformation? as in molding water (Which jimbei can do). It is water as when Kisame fused with his samehada to fight killa be.

Nope, in neutral universe flash gets speed force (enemy does not get)

In neutral universe Kisame gets chakra (he was designed that way), Jimbei does NOT get chakra

Physical energy? Might Guy and Rock Lee kick ass w/o that wimpy chakra stuff

Not "moulding water". It's still chakra given an elemental transformation, sometimes, they've even directly used natural elements. And I don't get how kisame fusing with samehada to fight meant that the water was ordinary water.. (The fight is a little blurry though)

Yet, flash's speed force powers are allowed to work on every character, assuming their speed is compatible with speed force.

Might guy is good.. Madara/Tobirama/Hashi/Kyubi/Pein/So6p all use chakra though, and any of these can lolstomp guy. Talk about wimpy..

#36 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (7213 posts) - - Show Bio

@PrinceAragorn1 said:

@Mr_Ingenuity said:

@PrinceAragorn1: Well Morning Tiger finished Kisame off so a big enough blow can kill him if he is incapable of absorbing it.

He was standing idiot-like, "o yea, my attack absorbs chakra and gets bigger." Of course he was going to be beat lol.

But still, he has dealt with freaking jinchuriki alone.. I'd rather not take him lightly.

How is Kisame suppose to know Jinbei isn't hitting with chakra? Because Kisame clearly can't distinguish it from attacks.

#37 Posted by The Stegman (23158 posts) - - Show Bio

I swear, these Naruto vs One Piece battles always end in "What is Chakra anyway?" debates.

#38 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16129 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rumble Man said:

@PrinceAragorn1: Spiritual Energy =/= Soul, and every fiction has different mechanism (like anime/comics). Does every character have 'Innocence' like in D-Gray man? Does every character have 'Dying Will Flames' like in Katekyo Hitman Reborn? Does every character have 'Stands' like in JJBA? Does every character have ' Nen' like in Hunter x Hunter? Does every character have 'Haki' like in one piece?

it is NOT the same

Course not. But every anime states that 'every living being has xyz energy'. So even if other anime members don't know how to use it, doesn't mean it won't exist. And anyway, for battle forums, what's the point if a we have a nigh-invincible genjutsu based character, and put in battle, he'll lose because none of his attacks work? We discuss mainly what kind of attacks are better etc.. giving a character auto defense because they're from different anime rather take away the point.

And imagine yourself. If they decide to make a naruto-op or bleach crossover, will any character just stand there and say "lol nope I don't have chakra so genjutsu doesn't work?"

#39 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16129 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Stegman said:

I swear, these Naruto vs One Piece battles always end in "What is Chakra anyway?" debates.

Seconded. It gets so damn tiresome I sometimes forget which characters we're debating about lol

#40 Posted by Rumble Man (11119 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced: lets do this in short sentences

A: False, as chakra is just bog standard life energy that everyone has

Incorrect, chakra has its own specific mechanisms. Chakra coils are not ubiquitous in all of fiction nor is the chakra circuits within the body. Even the diagram differs from that of normal understanding.

B: silly because you'd assume certain powers work cross universally, like One Piece characters ability to hit intangible opponents with Haki. Kisame's main power is sucking the energy out of attacks, while he obviously specializes in chakra because that's Narutoverse's main energy source, he's sucked explosions and physical attacks.

I never said anything in THIS thread about Haki usage, only that Jimbe will win and that chakra is exclusive to narutoverse (which I have been pressing on).

when and where? (explosion)

but I don't think the go to reason should be that Kisame's powers just don't work because Jinbei isn't a naruto character.

Of course his power works, samehada slashes work, punches work, and water bullets work. But is it effective?

an analogy to the chakra thing is Ghost Rider's penance stare against kid goku who has 100% innocence (proven by the nimbus cloud). Unless one wishes to screw up with his character by instilling sin and stuff.

@PrinceAragorn1:

Not "moulding water". It's still chakra given an elemental transformation, sometimes, they've even directly used natural elements. And I don't get how kisame fusing with samehada to fight meant that the water was ordinary water.. (The fight is a little blurry though)

Not really, he uses chakra to summon water and in that area he can absorb charkra. The dome moves with him at the center, so wherever he moves the dome follows. Oxtail used ink to escape from the fusion. Or alternatively 'chakra' used to mold water.

Yet, flash's speed force powers are allowed to work on every character, assuming their speed is compatible with speed force.

Do explain

Might guy is good.. Madara/Tobirama/Hashi/Kyubi/Pein/So6p all use chakra though, and any of these can lolstomp guy. Talk about wimpy..

Wow Madara as i the guy who got tagged by Rock Lee with kyuubi chakra? they overdepend on that power

#41 Posted by Rumble Man (11119 posts) - - Show Bio

@PrinceAragorn1:

Course not. But every anime states that 'every living being has xyz energy'. So even if other anime members don't know how to use it, doesn't mean it won't exist. And anyway, for battle forums, what's the point if a we have a nigh-invincible genjutsu based character, and put in battle, he'll lose because none of his attacks work? We discuss mainly what kind of attacks are better etc.. giving a character auto defense because they're from different anime rather take away the point.
And imagine yourself. If they decide to make a naruto-op or bleach crossover, will any character just stand there and say "lol nope I don't have chakra so genjutsu doesn't work?"

I can give lists of animes without 'xyz energy' , not everything is shonen you know

It does mean, do robots/cyborgs and aliens fall under that rule

now why the heck would one put a nigh-invincible character in the first place to stomp?

Giving a character a new 'weakness' is also weird

Equivalency (as in no-reiatsu crush, no-haki crush and no-insta genjutsu then stab to the throat)

its a battle thread and not a curbstomp thread.

@PrinceAragorn1 said:

@The Stegman said:

I swear, these Naruto vs One Piece battles always end in "What is Chakra anyway?" debates.

Seconded. It gets so damn tiresome I sometimes forget which characters we're debating about lol

OP should explicitly state equivalency then and make it so that both parties can fight on good terms

#42 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16129 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rumble Man said:

@PrinceAragorn1:

Not "moulding water". It's still chakra given an elemental transformation, sometimes, they've even directly used natural elements. And I don't get how kisame fusing with samehada to fight meant that the water was ordinary water.. (The fight is a little blurry though)

Not really, he uses chakra to summon water and in that area he can absorb charkra. The dome moves with him at the center, so wherever he moves the dome follows. Oxtail used ink to escape from the fusion. Or alternatively 'chakra' used to mold water.

Yet, flash's speed force powers are allowed to work on every character, assuming their speed is compatible with speed force.

Do explain

Might guy is good.. Madara/Tobirama/Hashi/Kyubi/Pein/So6p all use chakra though, and any of these can lolstomp guy. Talk about wimpy..

Wow Madara as i the guy who got tagged by Rock Lee with kyuubi chakra? they overdepend on that power

I'm not sure about that. Because it's implied that chakra undergoes "nature transformation".. not like chakra used for "elemental summoning"

And, speed force allows flash to steal speeds of every DC character, right? Does that mean he should do it to every marvel character also?

Yeah. Giving chakra does make the difference (lol). And not like they made some significant damage..

#43 Posted by ghost_rider1 (3420 posts) - - Show Bio
@PrinceAragorn1

Can anyone post feats of Jimbei? I kind of need refreshing on him..

@ghost_rider1: Kisame's chakra sucking is compatible with One piece for the battle?

Yes....chakra and haki are always compatible when I make a crossover anime thread.
#44 Posted by Rumble Man (11119 posts) - - Show Bio

@PrinceAragorn1:

And, speed force allows flash to steal speeds of every DC character, right? Does that mean he should do it to every marvel character also?

why not, flash has stolen speed from those lacking speed force

@ghost_rider1:

Should also include no haki crush and chakra crush (as in genjutsu/stab)

#45 Posted by BlackWind (5558 posts) - - Show Bio

Jinbei can react to G2 Luffy, post time skip, easily. So Kisame even touching him isn't happening. His physical strength is easily on par with Luffy's, considering he sent a massive, enlarged Wadatsumi on his ass.

And no, Samehada won't be stealing energy from Jinbei, he has no chakra equivalent, at all.

#46 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16129 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rumble Man said:

@PrinceAragorn1:

Course not. But every anime states that 'every living being has xyz energy'. So even if other anime members don't know how to use it, doesn't mean it won't exist. And anyway, for battle forums, what's the point if a we have a nigh-invincible genjutsu based character, and put in battle, he'll lose because none of his attacks work? We discuss mainly what kind of attacks are better etc.. giving a character auto defense because they're from different anime rather take away the point.
And imagine yourself. If they decide to make a naruto-op or bleach crossover, will any character just stand there and say "lol nope I don't have chakra so genjutsu doesn't work?"

I can give lists of animes without 'xyz energy' , not everything is shonen you know

It does mean, do robots/cyborgs and aliens fall under that rule

now why the heck would one put a nigh-invincible character in the first place to stomp?

Giving a character a new 'weakness' is also weird

Equivalency (as in no-reiatsu crush, no-haki crush and no-insta genjutsu then stab to the throat)

its a battle thread and not a curbstomp thread.

@PrinceAragorn1 said:

@The Stegman said:

I swear, these Naruto vs One Piece battles always end in "What is Chakra anyway?" debates.

Seconded. It gets so damn tiresome I sometimes forget which characters we're debating about lol

OP should explicitly state equivalency then and make it so that both parties can fight on good terms

Yes, You can give a list of animes that shown never to use xyz energy. That doesn't mean they don't have it, they don't realise/utilise it. Because many animes explain that "If you live, you have xyz". Some shows, like avatar, have the specific powers though. Like not every living character has bending powers.. unlike chakra/chi/reiatsu.

Robots etc don't really fall under the rule. But aliens, if they are living are shown to have the energies. (DBZ: chi is sensed for every alien, but androids can't be sensed)

*facepalm*. I'm saying he's got insanely strong genjutsu. (Give a character Tsukuyomi, and Shisui's genjutsu at once). Putting him in a battle forum, the most powerful weapons are made useless because he fights battle against other animes. Itachi, for example. Taking out tsukuyomi/totsuka sword to keep things fair is ok. But taking out every kind of Genjutsu? doesn't sound fair to him.

But op should mention it. I 100% agree to it. It saves this tiresome debate.

#47 Posted by Dredeuced (5353 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rumble Man said:

@PrinceAragorn1:

And, speed force allows flash to steal speeds of every DC character, right? Does that mean he should do it to every marvel character also?

why not, flash has stolen speed from those lacking speed force

@ghost_rider1:

Should also include no haki crush and chakra crush (as in genjutsu/stab)

Everyone in the DC multiverse is affected by the speed force. Anyone who uses kinetic energy has the speed force, they just don't manipulate it like the Flash. Flash's has never speed stolen a ghost who lacks kinetic energy, has he?

#48 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16129 posts) - - Show Bio

@Rumble Man said:

@PrinceAragorn1:

And, speed force allows flash to steal speeds of every DC character, right? Does that mean he should do it to every marvel character also?

why not, flash has stolen speed from those lacking speed force

@ghost_rider1:

Should also include no haki crush and chakra crush (as in genjutsu/stab)

Well.. then why shouldn't chakra based techniques work?

And Haki can be simply resisted by strong will.. Genjutsu's key is not brute force, it's calming down to stop the chakra flow/simply disturbing it. It's not necessary to learn defense against haki. But it's a must to learn defense against genjutsu.. and extreme high level genjutsu are nearly impossible to resist.. like shown by itachi to naruto..

#49 Posted by ghost_rider1 (3420 posts) - - Show Bio
@Rumble Man

@PrinceAragorn1:

And, speed force allows flash to steal speeds of every DC character, right? Does that mean he should do it to every marvel character also?

why not, flash has stolen speed from those lacking speed force

@ghost_rider1:

Should also include no haki crush and chakra crush (as in genjutsu/stab)

I don't think kisame have any genjutsu feats at all.
#50 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16129 posts) - - Show Bio

@Dredeuced said:

@Rumble Man said:

@PrinceAragorn1:

And, speed force allows flash to steal speeds of every DC character, right? Does that mean he should do it to every marvel character also?

why not, flash has stolen speed from those lacking speed force

@ghost_rider1:

Should also include no haki crush and chakra crush (as in genjutsu/stab)

Everyone in the DC multiverse is affected by the speed force. Anyone who uses kinetic energy has the speed force, they just don't manipulate it like the Flash. Flash's has never speed stolen a ghost who lacks kinetic energy, has he?

Exactly. But other verse which have no concept of speed force, we still say flash will be able to steal the kinetic energy..