Guys/Girls cool down a bit. I put KC Flash in this to Fight. And Ion to fight. Its all about Skills and power not about Time traveling or demensions. They ALL have to fight. Soooo try telling who wins, how they win, and try to keep the respect. Thanks "
Guys/Girls cool down a bit. I put KC Flash in this to Fight. And Ion to fight. Its all about Skills and power not about Time traveling or demensions. They ALL have to fight. Soooo try telling who wins, how they win, and try to keep the respect. Thanks "
So time traveling isn't allowed? "
No Time Traveling. Its stupid if thats the only way one character can win. Ion can't change time, and Flash can't go through time to erase Kyles birth or whatever. KC Flash is theoretically a top tier character in the DCU. I just recently read about him must say the End of KC was stupid. The whole idea they created about him and everything until the end was great then in the end it was MAJOR PIS. Quote me, argue, or complain IDC but any character that was soooo power, talked about being as intelligent as Solar the sun eater and keeps the city in absolute Paradise. In the end gets tagged by Thunder and Lightening and Jobbers in the jail scene wtf? It was major stupidity. But the story wasn't about him it was about Supes mental and Physical trials and tribulations and Cap Marvel sacrifice and blah blah. Anyways were going by "Theoretical" or "Assumed Power" obviously each character has an immense amount of power but boths feats are frankly subject to discussion/debate of authenticity.
Therefore it is a Theoretical fight, with KC Flash's theoretical abilities and moves without PIS, vs Original Ion Kyle Rayner whom has FULL control over the Ion entity and just like in Hand of God has the full energies of the Green Light, vs Superman Prime after the guardian sacreficed his life to destroy prime but in effect made him far more powerful. So what could prime have achieved after kicking mxy around (kinda pis too but it made a lil more sense since he had no power) and JUST before he fought Monarch.
Those are the 3 characters I want FIGHTINGin this battle. NO bs BFR, NO Time traveling into the past for a future victory, and NO lame excused for why a character wins, use at least some good logic and reason. THanks.
JediXMan seems to be pretty logical in most of his posts so I thank your for clearing this all up.
@Silver man: Kingdom Come Flash IS Wally West. He basically moves constantly and can't be seen, though some felt his presence... Kingdom Come had a really crappy ending though. They completely ruin the idea of the Flash that they created. BUT Wally has become a multi-dimensional being that is in constant motion, can steal and give speed and can even find the spectre when he wants (in the spectres dimension)... I personally think KC Flash wins. Since Wally has broken green lantern restraints.
" I personally think KC Flash wins. Since Wally has broken green lantern restraints. "
I don't understand how that matters. This isn't Kyle Rayner with Lantern Ring vs KC Superman. This is Kyle as classic Ion, the near-omnipotent, near-omniscient, and near-omnipresent entity.
" I personally think KC Flash wins. Since Wally has broken green lantern restraints. "
I don't understand how that matters. This isn't Kyle Rayner with Lantern Ring vs KC Superman. This is Kyle as classic Ion, the near-omnipotent, near-omniscient, and near-omnipresent entity. "
I think your misunderstanding. I read Hand of God and Ion Kyle is one of my favorite characters I more often than not choose him to win. Ion Kyle did have a lot of power but I don't think that helps him in this fight. KC Flash Is an Interdimensional Being. "can't be contained on one plane of existance.." AND remember this is without PIS not like the ending of KC this is going off of what the spectre said and parts of the story. Not the completely stupid ending that made utterly no sense. Wally has vibrated his molecules through green lantern restraints/energy before without trouble. This Is the most powerful version of Wally that can do all the same things pretaining to time travel that Kyle could do. I just think KC Flash wins before the fight is started. And I didn't say anything about KC Superman? Kyle couldn't do anything to the Ths version of the Flash. Flash wins after a long fight with Ion, then takes out Prime. (My opinion)
Omnipresence- To be present everywhere at the same time.
@JediXMan said:
" @difficlus said:
" So excatly how powerful is kingdon come flash? "
He was able to be everywhere in Central City at once, stopping crimes before they happened. He was also able to rip someone out of a hidden dimension. He is not near-omnipotent, near-omniscient, or near-omnipresent - that'd be Kyle as Ion. "
You just said he could be everywherethan u said he's not nigh-omnipresent...
" Omnipresence- To be present everywhere at the same time.
@JediXMan
said:
" @difficlus said:
" So excatly how powerful is kingdon come flash? "
He was able to be everywhere in Central City at once, stopping crimes before they happened. He was also able to rip someone out of a hidden dimension. He is not near-omnipotent, near-omniscient, or near-omnipresent - that'd be Kyle as Ion. "
You just said he could be everywherethan u said he's not nigh-omnipresent... "
Everywhere in CENTRAL CITY. He was not everywhere in the universe. Kyle was.
Omnipresence = everywhere, not being able to be everywhere within a small space,
KC Flash wins after the Convincing and Valid argument made by Mainline.
@greenlanterntat: Fans like you are what make this site unbearable at times.
Some top debaters came on here and in my opinion were simply outclassed by Mainline. Then the OP came on and made valid points to how he can win this battle w.o time travel and then someone foolishly uneducated by someone who showed he was smarter used a defense for Ion that was as flawed as what he originally posted.
Sucks to say because I love Ion but KC Flash wins. Still Ion looks cooler :)
@ThaMessenger07: his only defense for kc flash winning was he'd kill baby kyle which a scan proved was ineffective and he not going to be able to get through ions constructs this isn't just a regular lantern as for my post i like scans and dont find it pirating at all and expressed that i never said any one was stupid or their points invalid u need to learn to take a joke im a military police in the us army not some 12 year old to be talked down to i enjoy lighting the mood with jokes lol
" @Mainline: 1. Um... if you're everywhere, then you exist. Period. You exist everywhere; every time and place. And I know what omniscience is; and I believe Kyle is also omniscient. 2. Barry wasn't instant. He was running for at least a few seconds before he time traveled. And as he said, it's not perfect timing. I believe he said he could go ahead ten seconds (his intention) or ten years. 3. No, KC is Wally in another reality. There is no proof that Kyle even existed in the Kingdom Come timeline. The only GL we saw was Alan Scott. Again, different timeline. Your acting like New Earth Wally would know the same thing as KC Flash. 4. There's a difference. KC is a self-contained series. If you don't want plot holes like that, don't make new characters. In Kyle's case, he already existed. Now if it was an alternate reality (self-contained in a single series), then your case would make sense. "
1. You've lost the plot. Omnipresence is not omnitemporal. Every place is not every when. And whatever you believe is irrelevant, your burden is to prove it. You've not proven he's omniscient though it's irrelevant. 2. Barry's also the slowest and comporting to the demands of the plot; once again battles have different parameters then plots otherwise Kyle loses because he feels insecure and unworthy. 3. Again, read The Kingdom. Kyle wasn't in it because Ross hates next generation characters, but the succession is clear in the Absolute Edition. And again, it's irrelevant because KCF can time travel to give himself all the time he needs to do all the research warranted.4. Wrong. KC has crossed over into mainstream DCU on several occasions namely in JSA and The Legion "
1. There is a scan of him commenting on his powers. I'm looking for it. 2. Show me when a Flash did it instantly. 3. See #2. 4. Not the point. I didn't say he couldn't go to New Earth. I said KC Flash (Earth-22) isn't the same person as New Earth Wally (New Earth). Just like KC Superman (Earth-22) isn't the same person as New Earth Superman (New Earth). Different experiences, different life, different powers (though not too different).
This isn't the scan I wanted, but it proves my point.
THAT is what Ion is. "
This clearly Pokes every hole in Mainlines Argument. "O he can Time travel and kill Baby Kyle" While Clearly stated before hand by either Jedixman. OR Silver. He cannot, ION will just warp the Time Stream and make him go into a supernova. Im very confused as to how people get the words Omnipotent and omnipresent. And still think Flash wins.
@ThaMessenger07: As for Jedi and Silver being "outclassed" it was clearly the opposite. They both got bored with his "Big smart Snobby" Ignorant comments and being insulted. They poked every hole in his logic. Yet he still came with the same bs comeback "time travel" Im a huge flash fan boy and that is a clear "Honor system" rule here as to not use for a ways of winning. Clearly the character isnt strong enough if u have to resort to that. Jedi and Silver Were the most Logical ones here if u ask me. I dont blame for leaving at all, u cant win an argument against an ignorant man.
Now where in White Lanterns Debate did he every say he could win without time travel? Breaking out of a Regular GL's constructs? Right, because every lantern's constructs are the same as ION's? Please...White Lantern even said in the beginning that ION would win. But then changed his mind after hearing Time Travel. He chose to follow the uncorrect bandwagon as to sticking to his guns and common sense like everyone else on here. I E Jedi and Silver. "No offense White Lantern". Big ups for the Pic bro :P lol.
All in all, Mainline made a PB&J sound like a T bone steak. When in reality, its just a damn PB&J. with time traveling abilities...who can go back in time and make the Steak non existent anymore and say " I WIN, THE STEAK IS NO MORE!!!" Again, Please...
Mainline is Clearly Well educated, but as for Social Skills, Insulting 2 great debaters for no reason, is uncalled for. Using big fancy words still doesnt make it right.
" @Jezer: i'm no law student but you're right he/she backed his/her arguments with conviction, he/she convinced me i think flash takes this "
It's not about conviction. Everyone debating had conviction. He/she backed up almost every little point with logic and evidence. Even the delivery was on point. Figuratively, in my opinion, he spoonfed it up the asses of the masses. Reason rape? Rape of reason? Whatever it deserves to be called, it was fun to read.
However, since the O.P. specified that time travel doesn't count, Ion probably takes it. I say "probably", because I don't know the specifics/limits of Ion's powers. Basically, if Ion is killable through anything the Flash can do, the Flash wins. If Ion can survive everything the Flash can do or think of, then Ion wins by blinking Flash out of existence.
@greenlanterntat: The scan proved nothing and was analyzed to the point that shows Kyles thought is still not faster then what KC Flash can move. I would never have thought him winning but in reading the arcs that I have and truly embracing what he wrote with un-biased eyes I can see his point is valid. Now if time travel and reality Manipulation is not allowed then it's a little different but still a hard battle to call.
Humor is fine but insulting someone or talking in that manor towards someone who debated like a true gentlemen and knew his stuff is unreasonable and something this site suffers from. I respect the you are an MP and all the service you put in for our country but your not being talked down too, you are being told that something you said was unnecessary and out of line. I didn't flag you nor did I claim you were a child I called you out on it because I disagree with your action. No authority but God is above being disciplined.
P.S. I Have No Problem with Scans as well. It is Pirating but I still have tons of scan. Mostly of Namor, Daredevil, Aquaman, & Captain America.
@TheFlash4740: Don't get me wrong, I would never come on here and Say Flash wins by time Travel. The difference is, Mainline did in a battle that had no specifications. If it falls into the characters mindset to do something in battle then he will. If you want to keep stroking Debaters on here that are considered some of the best (which I agree they are) then that is you. Yet if you actually read, you see that he stayed on subject, answered all there questions, analyzed there scan, and backed his belief with facts. Ion is like Midnighter, he wins in most peoples eyes because the majority agree. Well that is not how it works and Mainline debated an opinion that went against the masses, he had logical reasoning, he didn't resort to calling anyone a fanboy, till he himself was attacked, he was compared to other Viners who I guess in some way were frustrating. All for what? Having an Opinion and backing it with Solid Evidence? Truly pathetic how the easily influenced Hive mind works.
He was insulted first and the only ignorance is to not see that when reading through the debate. He presented a PB&J and showed that it is still a meal that can satisfy your hunger, has nutritional value and not just to grab the steak because that's what everyone else ordered.
Oh bump this for fun. Lol Mainline and Jedi had some fun!! One argued based off of Logical deduction via time Travel, the other argued about Kyle stopping Flash before this could happen. Lol then the OP comes in and says NO Time travel. Which should end the argument right? NO! Haha MORE people jump on KC Flashes side. The idea of him not being held on one plane of existance, interdimensional being, no PIS ending counting... lol vs Hand of God Kyle Rayner Ion that waived off and Armada like he was shoeing a fly away.
Anyways because this is KC Flash with all his abilities without the PIS ending as stated by the OP. I'll take him. Simply because what could Kyle do to him? Can't mind control him, can't use the constructs (already stated Wally has phased through them), Can't react fast enough to defend himself, Can't use time travel himself, can't hide in another dimension because KC Flash was interdimensional... Soo...
I'ma say KC Flash > Ion Kyle (Hand of God) >>>>> Superman Prime with Oan upgrade, (wtf is he in this fight for)
Also on a seperate issue. I know Ion was retconned the second time (After Hand of God) to be more powerful than the first but actually had much lower feats and wasn't as powerful right? So who is officially supposed to be more powerful: Ion Kyle (Hand of God), Ion Kyle (12 part miniseries), or Ion Sodam Yat?
Mainline may have backed up everything he said with lawyer like conviction, his wordplay may have been impressive ( even if he was coming off as a snob. Seriously, this is a battle thread lol no need to get all Harvard in here) but it doesnt mean he's not wrong.
Speed means nothing to somebody with power like Ion Kyle.
Flash won't be seen. Prime can't be effected by Kyles reality warping or matter manipulation.and Kyle is just a beast.
So it comes down to Ion vs Flash = Probably Ion. Whoever wins that Deals with Prime = If its Flash, I think he wins. If it's Ion, I think Prime wins only because Kyles biggest asset is irrelevant in this fight. And we don't have any feats of him battling someone.
I cannot believe people think KC flash can defeat Classic ION...that's like saying he can defeat the likes of the infinity gauntlet simply because he can time travel...I do not see how flash's control over time is greater than ION's. Speed is a nonfactor in this battle...ION after all can change the past without changing the future. therefore what ever flash does in the past could be negated by ion. In addition, flash is not omniscient, so he wouldn't even know which point in the timeline to travel to.
I cannot believe people think KC flash can defeat Classic ION...that's like saying he can defeat the likes of the infinity gauntlet simply because he can time travel...I do not see how flash's control over time is greater than ION's. Speed is a nonfactor in this battle...ION after all can change the past without changing the future. therefore what ever flash does in the past could be negated by ion. In addition, flash is not omniscient, so he wouldn't even know which point in the timeline to travel to.
All of your points were addressed and dismissed earlier in this thread.
No...I believe that no one has addressed the fact that ION can alter the past without changing the future.
Also...I find it extremely unbelievable that people think someone who has the power of time travel and speed can defeat a being on par with spectre and eternity. From the looks of this thread I do see flash being extremely overrated in argument. His feats are being interpreted too literally. ION easily has more control over time than flash, and flash can't be faster in terms of speed since ION is already omnipresent. As fast as the flash is would still take time for him to travel, but it would take zero time for someone omnipresent to do so.
No...I believe that no one has addressed the fact that ION can alter the past without changing the future.
Also...I find it extremely unbelievable that people think someone who has the power of time travel and speed can defeat a being on par with spectre and eternity. From the looks of this thread I do see flash being extremely overrated in argument. His feats are being interpreted too literally. ION easily has more control over time than flash, and flash can't be faster in terms of speed since ION is already omnipresent. As fast as the flash is would still take time for him to travel, but it would take zero time for someone omnipresent to do so.
Point was already addressed when the guy pointed out that he isn't omni-temporal, which is why it wouldn't matter if he was omnipresent.
However, I don't see the significance of the fact that "ION can alter the past without changing the future" - as the scan said he had to willfully hold down the threads of time to change the past without changing the future. Nonetheless, if Flash travels faster than he can think, and present time becomes irrelevent once he travels to the past, he could unravel the timeline before ION can hold down the threads of time to keep it from unraveling and keep his future set. That's what Mainline was arguing. The rest of what you said was already addressed; you could probably inbox ummm Mainline your questions if you want his actual response.
Sorry for the bump, but I must have been an idiot last year. Mainline destroyed this thread and it kind of embarrasses me that I didn't grasp it at first. I guess all my reading and writing has payed off lol
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