what can i say. every once in a while i like to get a good ole fashioned butt whooping! naw but seriously i have some thing that resembles a strategy here
what can i say. every once in a while i like to get a good ole fashioned butt whooping! naw but seriously i have some thing that resembles a strategy here
what i think i have a real shot her----- ha ha lol lol i couldnt even finish that sentence without laughing. but no seriously i wouldnt do it without a strategy!
Typically, one could say with two telepaths of both Betsy and Emma's caliber, I could just say "mental shutdown" and walk away. But while I do believe they can do so between the two of them, I have a different route to take. One much more fun and a bit more direct.
Emma here is the worst fighter. It's really that simple. I'll admit it. But is she really that bad? No. Emma I find to be an underrated h2h fighter because some people think she is just a powerful telepath. She relies on her powers, that is her bread and butter. She isn't as extensive in h2h as Pyslocke or even Gambit. Gambit's good with his stick, agility, and Savate, but h2h alone he is kind of lacking. You do have the one off statements though of Nick Fury saying he's one of the most dangerous fighters, but I have never seen the actual on panel of that being said.
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Scans:
1. Emma just showing a bit of rough play with Banshee. Not a huge feat but kind of funny.
2. Emma is seen fending off a lizard turned human with just her h2h ability. So she doesn't need her powers against enhanced beings just because of stats.
3. In her diamond form, Emma is seen defending herself against a lizard turned Wolverine, Storm, and Gambit. She doesn't beat them because she is helped by Spider-Man. Her diamond form is just an added insurance policy in her own protection.
4-5: Defeats a group of Sinister clones after having her arm reattached for a training session. Just fodder, but still gets my point across about not being able to defend herself without her powers.
6-9: In diamond form, Emma is capable of holding her own against both Bishop and Sage. They realized the only way to get beat her was through BFR. Also a nice durability feat considering her body was blasted quite the distance.
And Psylocke has been getting some solid skill feats over the past couple of years.
While she admits to not being able to beat him in straight up hand to hand combat, between some cunning ability and playing to Daredevil's morals, she manages to give him a solid fight and had him at the end, but didn't follow through. I still find it dumb how her powers didn't work because he has enhanced senses, but Remender had to do something I guess to make the fight go on.
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She also holds her own against Wolverine quite well when he went berserk and he was mentally overpowering her at the same time, so she wasn't completely focused.
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And I know she can deflect bullets. She does so in one of the scans I'm sure you'll post when both her and Gambit are deflecting them. She can also strike faster than the eye can follow, and her agility and reflexes are also incredibly impressive. She dodges an onslaught of debris from Magneto and manages to stab him with a poison.
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So Psylocke can do things both of your characters can do respectively. Insane agility feat? Check. Deflect bullets? Check. Attack faster than the eye can see? Check. Nerve strikes? Check.
But what about Emma? Bullet proof. Her transformation between diamond form is also said to happen within one hundredth of a second. Her diamond form is also able to chip Daken's claws. Daken's bone claws were sharp enough to slice Skaar, Hulk's son. I had to throw it up in large. It always gets screwy when I upload it.
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And I have a plethora of blunt force feats for Emma. Basically if she goes diamond, there isn't anything you can do to hurt her. I'll put them up later if need be.
And I won't need the brain shut downs either. Remember, these feats are physical ones. I haven't delved too much into their main powers except just a little bit of Emma's diamond form.
And just a tip for the future of this debate; the same applies here, but they can read minds.
@god_spawn: ok obviously i want to do my best to remove your TP advantage and i will here!
for Gambit
and for Elektra
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bonus feat here is she beats the tar out of wolverine.
now I have maybe 2 advantages here (MAYBE!) one is for sure speed!
Gambit
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Elektra
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Elektra being the fastest one here.
My Second Advantage is that Gambits ability to charge things works on everything even people. all Gambit has to do is get a good touch on emma and he can damage her in her diamond form the trick is getting that touch i think his cards provide the distraction needed
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a full deck is catastrophic but usually three cards is enough now you may ask how fast are these cards
fast enough to tag spidey (if it werent for that damn spider sense of his...)
So in summary
trying to Tp my team is a way to go but that is time consuming and there is a significant chance that you wont get through in time! or you could try to fight my team which might give you the better shot although Emma is severely outclassed in H2H by these 3 although i am impressed by the scans you just showed me (she is definitely better thant i thought she would ever be!)
ok obviously i want to do my best to remove your TP advantage and i will here!
for Gambit
Xavier said it was uncomfortable for him, not that he couldn't. Now I actually do know full well Gambit has some feats against resisting telepaths. But most of the time they are against mind reading, not total immunity to telepathy. Gambit was tracked with Cerebro in Messiah Complex. When Input got in his head during the mission to destroy the Omega Machine Chair, he got in his head and nudged the Death persona. Input also said he wasn't as powerful as someone like Emma Frost. So what I figure is that a powerful enough telepath can get in, albeit there being some resistance. So if Xavier has issues getting, but can, then 2 Omega class telepaths can. They may not do the shut down, but they most likely would definitely find out who is in the building to know who they are fighting and track them.
Quote by Rick Remender about Psylocke since her upgrade in UXF volume 1
The Jean Grey of the "Age of Apocalypse" reality opened Betsy's mind up (See Uncanny X-Force #17). She unlocked a lot of stuff. In this issue, you saw the giant, Phoenix-like butterfly effect Betsy generated when she was fighting Archangel. She knocked him down with that. No one had accomplished that to this point -- she hadn't been able to get into his mind before that either. He had just been this thing that was way, way beyond her. Whatever Jean Grey did when she was inside Betsy's head unlocked some potential.
We're going to be seeing a lot of that. She is an Omega level. One thing we wanted to accomplish with this story was that Betsy comes out a full fledged Omega level mutant, on par with Xavier or Jean. In my mind, that's what was accomplished when Jean unlocked the powers in her head.
And Emma is considered an Omega class telepath, which is the same classification as Xavier.
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With this in mind, Emma has a habit of scanning for opponents and she can sense telepaths thousands of miles away. It doesn't necessarily have to a conscious thing.
Just another example of being able to track someone with psychic defenses. Even unintentionally doing so.
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Wolverine does have them.
Now Emma picked up on Xavier thousands of miles away. Despite being stronger than Elektra, the point is Emma picked up on him regardless. Elektra is a telepath and weaker than Emma, but is in much closer proximity. This kind of goes for Gambit too. He does have resistance showings from mental invasions, but he can be picked up on. Emma has a habit of scanning areas and both of them should at least give off some kind of signature. Gorgon read her like a book in Enemy of the State. Both her and Wolverine needed psi-blockers to keep him out of their heads and he did nothing to suggest he was as powerful as Emma.
Emma's gotten in Logan's head anyway multiple times. She did so in Whedon's run when she made him and Beast stop fighting and bow to each other. She got in his head to fight demons in Wolverine goes to Hell arc. Not to mention the multiple times she's talked with him on team missions.
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So physic defenses aren't infallible.
bonus feat here is she beats the tar out of wolverine
Elektra actually isn't in too much of Wolverine's league. Still some context to that fight, I just can't remember it. Actually, a lot of their fights are circumstantial come to think of it.
A post by me in regards to Elektra vs Wolverine.
If you want to go higher on the food chain, her fights with Wolverine were circumstantial for the most part. Bone claw Wolverine had a training session with her and Elektra suckerpunched Wolverine and began an attack. Wolverine didn't want a fight and while she manages to disarm him of a sword she gave him, he in return manages to parry her attacks, grabs her sword, vanishes, and sheathes it and tells her he isn't in the mood. Another Logan barely had a healing factor (I can't remember the full context). Another fight where a just back from the dead Logan with one eye, 90% of his body burnt, no hair, and was found in a ditch and was brought into a SHIELD med-bay and entirely bandaged from head to toe. He was still physically healing and roughed up and he awakens with his mind not entirely his own thanks to the Hand and he gets dogpiled by SHIELD agents and stabbed in the back with sais. He waits for an explosion to go off and he briefly engages Elektra and breaks her sais. She manages to stab him again in the neck, but Logan once again timed the events again and waited for the area to flood before swimming away. And another where she was controlled by the Hand and attacks Wolverine with him just blocking her swords before she manages to communicate without sound or language and ends up breaking the mind control.
Elektra has a lot of statements, but a lot of showings contradict her. One example being how Wolverine said if she lost how could he beat the Gorgon? Funnily enough is Wolverine did end up beating Tomi, due to his arrogance, but in the initial exchange of sword vs claws, Wolverine was able to repeatedly tag him. Elektra couldn't even hit Tomi when he was toying with her. His track record is also better than hers and a lot longer when it comes to skilled opponents.
Elektra vs Daredevil usually has some context IIRC, Matt has been out of it or kind of held back because he cares about her. They both have at certain times just because they cared for each other at some point. It's been awhile since I read their fights, though I do remember one in the scans you posted. The one where she subdues him is Dardevil 78. Matt's mind was elsewhere since the Kingpin leaked the Murdock papers to the FBI. He also got more hits on her and she came out with a bloody nose, he had no scratches on him. He did get the first hit, but she never really got that hit back until she wrenched his arm back. And since the series was being written by Bendis at the time, she actually went on to do poorly against Bullseye, and Matt ended up beating him a few times in that series IIRC.
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Elektra has had trouble with Bullseye on multiple occasions. Matt has gone on to beat him handily, and has done so with even a broken arm before. This is spanning years while Elektra still struggles. Elektra also stalemated Black Widow, and Murdock has beaten her on more than occasion. Bucky has beaten Widow, and at his best, he could not beat a slightly holding back Daredevil. Daredevil has also been one upped by Wolverine before and has better skill showings, but that is a different debate for another thread..
In short: Wolverine>>Daredevil>>>Elektra/Bullseye/Widow.
Speed
Agility and overall speed, sure, but not to the point my characters can't tag you. Psylocke's already fought the berserk Wolverine and she managed to tag Sabretooth a few times despite his fairly marginal superior physical advantage.
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Gambit's actually only done so well against the likes of Sabretooth when he was sick and once when he was shackled IIRC? Unless they So not 100%. Sabretooth has admired Gambit for his reflexes, but nothing he couldn't handle. Gambit has also beaten up an ailing Wolverine and had to use a distraction via hologram of Lady Deathstrike. Wolverine's punked Gambit quite easily before like when he was under mind control.
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So when you compare showings overall, I do think Psylocke has better showings against Wolverine and Sabretooth than Gambit has, who needed special circumstances to do as well as he did. Elektra could be argued to be better, but she is close enough to Psylocke as is. She has the speed and skill to take on Elektra and Gambit respectively+powers. Emma can engage them as well with her diamond form or some other psychic attacks, which I will get to later.
My Second Advantage is that Gambits ability to charge things works on everything even people. all Gambit has to do is get a good touch on emma and he can damage her in her diamond form the trick is getting that touch i think his cards provide the distraction needed
That would be out of character. Gambit may be willing to charge bad guys, but Emma and Psylocke aren't bad guys. Morals are on so it he wouldn't do it here.
a full deck is catastrophic but usually three cards is enough now you may ask how fast are these cardsast enough to tag spidey (if it werent for that damn spider sense of his...)
Not necessarily true. You kind of took the scan out of context. Spider-Man was sneaking into the building and got the warning something was there. If you pay attention, he is surprised to see Gambit. If it would have tagged him, it would have been no better than a cheap shot since he didn't know nothing was there until the attack was launched. And Psylocke is fast enough to deflect bullets and dodge a barrage from a mind controlled Magneto. Emma's diamond form was fast enough to block bullets from Bishop since she was flesh when he fired.
Given her durability allows her to do this:
Survive plane crashes unharmed. She was perfectly fine when Genosha collapsed. She was also able to tank hits from WWH. Go back to the Bishop one and he blasted her hundreds of feet and she was unharmed. Whatever your team has, they can't hurt her in this form.
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She's also fireproof, and a good speed transformation feat as well.
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So aside from all these counters, what can my team do?
So Psylocke will most likely engage in physical combat. That is her style. She could have TK'd Wolverine around but instead used it to grab her sword. She could have TK'd Daredevil but didn't. She normally goes melee with some telepathy added, but then she finishes with her psy-blade. But as of late, she's been using new TK constructs like bows, morningstars, crossbows, just energy blasts, and her sword again.
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With her crossbow, she made a TK rope that helped hold up a plane when one of its engines failed. So her TK is strong, but she will most likely go for melee. Emma on the other hand could try the shut down, but may give combat a try. Not h2h unless she has to and I can back up her alternating powers mid combat just fine.
But one power Emma does like to use is the psi-bolt. The hax move that is a beam of psionic energy that Emma has that can be used for a variety of effects, such as: physical pain, illusion casting, flinging opponents around, so like simulated telekinesis, and many others. This allows the telepath to bypass defenses. If she can't get in, she has this as a means to attack.
Just a few psi bolt examples. And I have a whole mess of these scans, so they are in character.
@god_spawn: what the heck i had a post here and its gone now? ugg fine i guess ill start over. (it didnt even eat it its like it never existed!)
Gambit's actually only done so well against the likes of Sabretooth when he was sick and once when he was shackled IIRC? Unless they So not 100%. Sabretooth has admired Gambit for his reflexes, but nothing he couldn't handle. Gambit has also beaten up an ailing Wolverine and had to use a distraction via hologram of Lady Deathstrike. Wolverine's punked Gambit quite easily before like when he was under mind control.
and hes done just fine against people like Blade
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Survive plane crashes unharmed. She was perfectly fine when Genosha collapsed. She was also able to tank hits from WWH. Go back to the Bishop one and he blasted her hundreds of feet and she was unharmed. Whatever your team has, they can't hurt her in this form.
can she tank "the full deck" though because Gladiator couldnt?
So Psylocke will most likely engage in physical combat. That is her style. She could have TK'd Wolverine around but instead used it to grab her sword. She could have TK'd Daredevil but didn't. She normally goes melee with some telepathy added, but then she finishes with her psy-blade. But as of late, she's been using new TK constructs like bows, morningstars, crossbows, just energy blasts, and her sword again.
this would actually work in Elektra's favor
her sonic scream would certainly stop Psylocke. and as she said its a simple technique
Elektra is fast enough to dodge Cyclops' blasts
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rest of that fight and she actually stabs DD skrull in the chest after words. so this is a great durability feat also. but notice she gets hit and then moves fast enough to quickly get around and behind Skrullverine!
But one power Emma does like to use is the psi-bolt. The hax move that is a beam of psionic energy that Emma has that can be used for a variety of effects, such as: physical pain, illusion casting, flinging opponents around, so like simulated telekinesis, and many others. This allows the telepath to bypass defenses. If she can't get in, she has this as a means to attack.
She might be able to do this maybe once but if Gambit gets close and she decides to switch shes done. (i know she can switch fast but i dont think that fast!) like he has done before
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also Gambit has some incredible speed feats
Dodges many bullets fired from a ship that was stated to have Celestial tech!
@kidman560: How many more posts do you want to do? Do you want to get in one more each (after this response of course) and get voting, or do you think we have enough for a solid debate and get to voting sooner?
and hes done just fine against people like Blade
Stalemated him, but doesn't necessarily make his chances against my character any better. He was still matching blows with Daredevil, and has been tagged by Wolverine. Psylocke was able to tag DD and Logan both herself. Gambit has more reflex feats that put him in an upper tier than Psylocke, but considering how Psylocke did against opponents Gambit has, it doesn't make much of a difference when she also has a big edge in her psy weapons. She's just not restricted to one type of weapon.
can she tank "the full deck" though because Gladiator couldnt?
Considering she has tank Genosha collapsing and hits from class characters, I would say yes. It's incredibly hard and circumstantial to damage her. And Gladiator did tank the full deck. He got thrown around, but was back up fine.
this would actually work in Elektra's favor
Elektra has only used her silent scream in that same series IIRC. If not maybe one time more after. It's mostly out of character for her to resort to her powers like her silent scream. It's been shown less often than Thor going godblast or Cyclops lawn blasting everything. They don't do it often enough that in character it becomes a standard practice. And even if she did, Psylocke is still a stronger in her attacks, that she can get off a type of attack just as fast and more powerful. And unlike Elektra with her powers, Psylocke is almost always seen using them, but she prefers to use them in a melee approach. Elektra virtually omits her abilities. She hasn't used them against Bullseye. Not against Daredevil. Not against Wolverine. And this continues on. And what's even worse is her power KO'd a normal guy and sent him through a window. I don't think my girls will be that worried.
Elektra is fast enough to dodge Cyclops' blasts
Skrulls, so not the real thing.
A standard Cyclops optic blast is generally shown as such:
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So more often than not it is thicker than just two separate eye beams. Skrulls copy abilities but more often than not don't stack up to the originals. Veranke, so Skrull Spider Woman, was pulling out the best feats that even the real Jessica never did. Black Panther in Secret Invasion defeated a super skrull with the abilities of Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Wolverine, and Bullseye. Iron Fist and Wolverine alone can arguably defeat him by themselves. If something had their abilities along with Cage's powers and Bullseye's aim, he realistically should have been in trouble. And to be fair to Cyclops, he's tagged faster and more agile opponents than Elektra and the guy can casually shred through tanks. If the skrull was hell bent on beating her, the thing could have taken her out in one hit. She was eventually tagged anyway when he bamfed, and she even turned to look at him.
She might be able to do this maybe once but if Gambit gets close and she decides to switch shes done. (i know she can switch fast but i dont think that fast!) like he has done before
But she has shown the speed to do so if he does throw the card. She's changed when Bishop fired at her and when Firestar blasted her near point blank. If she stays in diamond form, she won't come out until she has an opening. Emma is far from being an idiot.
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Case and point when dealing with Shaw. Shaw at this point fell from a plane and absorbed all the kinetic energy of the fall. He was amped up to the point of tanking of explosive rounds. And here is the kicker. See how Emma can't get in his head? What does she do?
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She casts an illusion instead to get around his mental defenses and then mindwipes him. Illusions and psychic surgery are a big forte.
She defeats Rachel ( a stronger telepath than Emma btw) by goading her and using her superior skill. She psi bolts Nate Grey and uses an illusion.
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She uses her psychic surgery to make a man go blind. She uses an illusion to make Ms. Marvel know their pain.
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Mentally messes with Scott.
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Uses psychic surgery on a Fury to just make it go away.
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In Summary: The big difference between my points is that in character, my characters have ways to beat your advantages. Your team's advantage is skill and mostly physical abilities. But I have defense and offense on my side. Emma can shift between her diamond form and telepathy to provide perfect defense and an offense you can't really defend against. Even if she stays diamond, she doesn't get tired, has no need to eat, feels no pain, and that gives me the edge. Eventually your team would gas out and their only way to win is to start pushing boundaries. Elektra may not have an issue with that, but Gambit and his friends will. Psylocke is skilled enough to hang with either opponent, and a good blow from her psy blade is all that is needed to turn the tide or a good TK blade to defend against ya. Emma has her psi bolts and diamond form to deal with any mental defenses instead of just going for a shut down.
@god_spawn: (i think i am slowly getting my butt kicked but hey ill try one more! and then you can do one more. if you want. i am on lunch and i work till 11 again so we can probably finish this tomorrow sorry about the delay!)
@kidman560: Cap isn't exactly friends with Gambit, and Gambit charged the armor in an attempt to only KO him. Still, charging an opponent that happens to be a friend has never happened before. So he won't charge Emma or Psylocke in case of that. If he charges Emma, she explodes. She is then a pile of diamonds. Psylocke might lose a limb. It's just not something he would risk on a friend. It's something he would do against enemy, though, ala Cap or Daken. And even then, he undercharged Cap. So say he does, and I'll throw you a bone here, it might not even do much. It didn't do much to Cap, and McNiven certainly overexaggerated the explosions, and didn't do his research on Gambit. He should have technically won there. But his morals cost him and so did lack of research by McNiven.
As for Elektra getting Taskmaster, it was Taskmaster being cocky. This has cost him many fights like against Daredevil, Moon Knight, and Elektra, and he ended beating her using Matt's style prior to that. So he knows he can beat her, but just kind of toyed with her. If you get away from his ego, he beat Black Widow and Headsman with his hands tied. He was holding his own against both Bucky and Steve Rogers at the same time. If Elektra at best stalemated Widow when Taskmaster is capable of destroying Widow, beating Taskmaster when he gets cocky isn't exactly a huge notch in her belt.
With that said, it still doesn't counter my points :P.
@god_spawn: ehh believe it or not but you have me in a position where i am out of relevant scans that could even tip the balance in my favor! and i can open it to voting also if it would be easier.
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