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#101 Posted by GhostRavage (9017 posts) - - Show Bio

I already told you how he'd put him Down TK KI = off with his head. You never answered how he gets around that. Even when he beat that fish man fodder he had to stop to summon up gear 2. So let's not act like it's on deck all the time, cut that out. You still haven't told me how he get's around Ken's Battle aura field when other KI couldn't In HNK you can't punch through KI you have to blast through it. Again answer how does he avoid TK KI= head explode and don't say he doesn't use it often cause I've posted scans where EOS Ken explodes people and things from a distance repeatedly. I don't care how fast ya boy is or how hard he hits he get's caught with the Touki field and he dies. Plus that Hody Jones match was weak, Hody isn't anything better than Ken faces on a regular basis with all the mutants running around. Look at the Devil reverse fight, Look at the Glenn Fight, look at the Frankenstein fight in the Kouketsu arc. And Logia soloing HNK universe? That's real funny call me when they can avoid the Anryu Tenha which several characters that Ken has beaten posses. An ability I posted in the HNK vs Admirals fight which is stated by Ken in the fight to Warp reality and space. And No I won't post it again because you should've looked at it before. IMO Luffy is the heir to Kenshrio, good hearted, honest and winning in the face of unbeatable odds but he has a bit to go before he surpasses the master.


Even when he beat that fish man fodder he had to stop to summon up gear 2.

  • Luffy in the Manga does not need to pump his body in order to summon Gear Second, the fact that he does it in the Anime is just for animation purposes. Same as the representation of Conqueror's Haki... In the manga people just start fainting without the need of a psionic wave to come out of Luffy's head.
  • How does the exploding head works? Because Luffy is made out of rubber, he has made his head become exponentially bigger more than once. Not to mention, i haven't seen anything on Ken to suggest he can keep up with Luffy in the speed department, adding on that mountain busting punches is going to be a solid win for Luffy IMO.
#102 Posted by Nelomaxwell (10550 posts) - - Show Bio

@nelomaxwell said:

I already told you how he'd put him Down TK KI = off with his head. You never answered how he gets around that. Even when he beat that fish man fodder he had to stop to summon up gear 2. So let's not act like it's on deck all the time, cut that out. You still haven't told me how he get's around Ken's Battle aura field when other KI couldn't In HNK you can't punch through KI you have to blast through it. Again answer how does he avoid TK KI= head explode and don't say he doesn't use it often cause I've posted scans where EOS Ken explodes people and things from a distance repeatedly. I don't care how fast ya boy is or how hard he hits he get's caught with the Touki field and he dies. Plus that Hody Jones match was weak, Hody isn't anything better than Ken faces on a regular basis with all the mutants running around. Look at the Devil reverse fight, Look at the Glenn Fight, look at the Frankenstein fight in the Kouketsu arc. And Logia soloing HNK universe? That's real funny call me when they can avoid the Anryu Tenha which several characters that Ken has beaten posses. An ability I posted in the HNK vs Admirals fight which is stated by Ken in the fight to Warp reality and space. And No I won't post it again because you should've looked at it before. IMO Luffy is the heir to Kenshrio, good hearted, honest and winning in the face of unbeatable odds but he has a bit to go before he surpasses the master.

Even when he beat that fish man fodder he had to stop to summon up gear 2.

  • Luffy in the Manga does not need to pump his body in order to summon Gear Second, the fact that he does it in the Anime is just for animation purposes. Same as the representation of Conqueror's Haki... In the manga people just start fainting without the need of a psionic wave to come out of Luffy's head.
  • How does the exploding head works? Because Luffy is made out of rubber, he has made his head become exponentially bigger more than once. Not to mention, i haven't seen anything on Ken to suggest he can keep up with Luffy in the speed department, adding on that mountain busting punches is going to be a solid win for Luffy IMO.

He uses your bodies internal energy to blow you away. And have you read the Whole fist of the north star manga to make these statements about him not being able to keep up?

#103 Edited by Nelomaxwell (10550 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: Also I'm gonna need scan's of his head getting exponential bigger because even balloons have points of breaking.

#104 Posted by GhostRavage (9017 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage said:
@nelomaxwell said:

I already told you how he'd put him Down TK KI = off with his head. You never answered how he gets around that. Even when he beat that fish man fodder he had to stop to summon up gear 2. So let's not act like it's on deck all the time, cut that out. You still haven't told me how he get's around Ken's Battle aura field when other KI couldn't In HNK you can't punch through KI you have to blast through it. Again answer how does he avoid TK KI= head explode and don't say he doesn't use it often cause I've posted scans where EOS Ken explodes people and things from a distance repeatedly. I don't care how fast ya boy is or how hard he hits he get's caught with the Touki field and he dies. Plus that Hody Jones match was weak, Hody isn't anything better than Ken faces on a regular basis with all the mutants running around. Look at the Devil reverse fight, Look at the Glenn Fight, look at the Frankenstein fight in the Kouketsu arc. And Logia soloing HNK universe? That's real funny call me when they can avoid the Anryu Tenha which several characters that Ken has beaten posses. An ability I posted in the HNK vs Admirals fight which is stated by Ken in the fight to Warp reality and space. And No I won't post it again because you should've looked at it before. IMO Luffy is the heir to Kenshrio, good hearted, honest and winning in the face of unbeatable odds but he has a bit to go before he surpasses the master.

Even when he beat that fish man fodder he had to stop to summon up gear 2.

  • Luffy in the Manga does not need to pump his body in order to summon Gear Second, the fact that he does it in the Anime is just for animation purposes. Same as the representation of Conqueror's Haki... In the manga people just start fainting without the need of a psionic wave to come out of Luffy's head.
  • How does the exploding head works? Because Luffy is made out of rubber, he has made his head become exponentially bigger more than once. Not to mention, i haven't seen anything on Ken to suggest he can keep up with Luffy in the speed department, adding on that mountain busting punches is going to be a solid win for Luffy IMO.

He uses your bodies internal energy to blow you away. And have you read the Whole fist of the north star manga to make these statements about him not being able to keep up?


I saw your Respect Thread contribution... Still i don't see how Ken is keeping up with Luffy since even WAY before Time Skip Luffy could keep up with higly supersonic foes... Nowadays even beams are too slow for Luffy, arguably they move at lightspeed since those beams are the same as Borsalino's.

@ghostravage: Also I'm gonna need scan's of his head getting exponential bigger because even balloons have points of breaking.

Do you want me to post the video since it seems it was only exclusively for animation purposes. Anyway, Luffy has several instances where he can grow his limbs exponentially, that's the whole Gear3rd... So i don't know how touching his forehead with the index is going to blow Luffy's head if he can grow pretty much every part of his body with a limit that is quite hard to reach... Not to mention, even his organs are made out of rubber.

#105 Posted by Nelomaxwell (10550 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: My respect thread doesn't have half the stuff Ken can do on it. When you read the Manga then we can talk. Where did you see ken touching anyone? This is TK, stick with the facts. I know gear 3. He increases his body parts one at a time not all of them at the same time. In the video you saw how Ken exploded that guys whole body, now with out conjecture or hyperbole has Luffy successfully expanded his whole body? Can he even?

#106 Edited by GhostRavage (9017 posts) - - Show Bio

@nelomaxwell: I mean... Luffy uses his whole body as a balloon to ricochet canon balls against marines... It happened even in the East Blue Saga... The very first episodes. I mean... Why using a technique which is pretty much likely to fail against someone who is made out of rubber? You're just, Luffy is going to explode because Ken has done it... But no one had the attributes Luffy had... Hell, you can't even harm Luffy with blunt attacks if you don't have Haki... He's been literally splattered by buildings and nothing happened.

#107 Edited by Nelomaxwell (10550 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage said:

@nelomaxwell: I mean... Luffy uses his whole body as a balloon to ricochet canon balls against marines... It happened even in the East Blue Saga... The very first episodes. I mean... Why using a technique which is pretty much likely to fail against someone who is made out of rubber? You're just, Luffy is going to explode because Ken has done it... But no one had the attributes Luffy had... Hell, you can't even harm Luffy with blunt attacks if you don't have Haki... He's been literally splattered by buildings and nothing happened.

Kenshiro still has long range slashing attacks and all I keep hearing is "he can't tag him." How did Jinbe tag him? Why is it that no one looks at Ken's other moves besides his pressure point techs. He's cut men in half from a distance too. And Kenshiro's style is described as a soft style, there's nothing blunt about it.Why does everyone keep confusing that?

#108 Posted by GhostRavage (9017 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage said:

@nelomaxwell: I mean... Luffy uses his whole body as a balloon to ricochet canon balls against marines... It happened even in the East Blue Saga... The very first episodes. I mean... Why using a technique which is pretty much likely to fail against someone who is made out of rubber? You're just, Luffy is going to explode because Ken has done it... But no one had the attributes Luffy had... Hell, you can't even harm Luffy with blunt attacks if you don't have Haki... He's been literally splattered by buildings and nothing happened.

Kenshiro still has long range slashing attacks and all I keep hearing is "he can't tag him." How did Jinbe tag him? Why is it that no one looks at Ken's other moves besides his pressure point techs. He's cut men in half from a distance too. And Kenshiro's style is described as a soft style, there's nothing blunt about it.Why does everyone keep confusing that?

I can use the entire Ennies Lobby saga to counter this argument... Hypersonic foe having a hard time dodging Gear2nd Luffy+Hypersonic foe whose kicks are so powerful they fire slashes that can cut through buildings like a hot knife cuts butter+DBZ-like moment more than once...+Luffy actually hitting so fast he seems to grow 5 arms in >slowmotion<... Lucci was by far one of the hardest fights Luffy had all because they pretty much had the same perks.

It doesn't matter if Kenshiro's style is called soft... it doesn't mean that he is a brute fighter... It means anything that doesn't involve cutting or slashing its called blunt... Like a hammer, like a punch, like pressure points, like a kick... See my point?

Im having this feeling i may want to CaV you mate :P

#109 Posted by Nelomaxwell (10550 posts) - - Show Bio

@nelomaxwell said:

@ghostravage said:

@nelomaxwell: I mean... Luffy uses his whole body as a balloon to ricochet canon balls against marines... It happened even in the East Blue Saga... The very first episodes. I mean... Why using a technique which is pretty much likely to fail against someone who is made out of rubber? You're just, Luffy is going to explode because Ken has done it... But no one had the attributes Luffy had... Hell, you can't even harm Luffy with blunt attacks if you don't have Haki... He's been literally splattered by buildings and nothing happened.

Kenshiro still has long range slashing attacks and all I keep hearing is "he can't tag him." How did Jinbe tag him? Why is it that no one looks at Ken's other moves besides his pressure point techs. He's cut men in half from a distance too. And Kenshiro's style is described as a soft style, there's nothing blunt about it.Why does everyone keep confusing that?

I can use the entire Ennies Lobby saga to counter this argument... Hypersonic foe having a hard time dodging Gear2nd Luffy+Hypersonic foe whose kicks are so powerful they fire slashes that can cut through buildings like a hot knife cuts butter+DBZ-like moment more than once...+Luffy actually hitting so fast he seems to grow 5 arms in >slowmotion<... Lucci was by far one of the hardest fights Luffy had all because they pretty much had the same perks.

It doesn't matter if Kenshiro's style is called soft... it doesn't mean that he is a brute fighter... It means anything that doesn't involve cutting or slashing its called blunt... Like a hammer, like a punch, like pressure points, like a kick... See my point?

Im having this feeling i may want to CaV you mate :P

He was but Lucci didn't have Musou Tensei or Ki blasts. I'll settle for the fact that Lucci's style was somewhat an Homage to HNK. But He didn't have the powers that Ken had and he was hurting Luffy badly. I remember that fight vividly and wondered how in the hell Luffy was going to win. (Gear 3 answered that) But Lucci doesn't have ken's arsenal. After mastering Hokuto Sōke no Ken Ken was able to hit Kaioh's breathing pressure points without touching him. I think it was in chapter 192 or somewhere about there. Ken has weapons that don't even need to hit Luffy to land including Several Nanto Seiken attacks which are all long range fast cutting attacks, like Rei's slices or Juda and Shuu's sweeping Ki. I couldn't do a CAV to save my life, the time it takes to recall and hunt down all the stuff I've seen and read since I've been in Middle school (I started watching HNK in 6th grade and I'm 27 now.) would take up too much time and because most people have never read or watched the series they'd need context, meaning chapter numbers or full eps.

#110 Posted by GhostRavage (9017 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage said:
@nelomaxwell said:

@ghostravage said:

@nelomaxwell: I mean... Luffy uses his whole body as a balloon to ricochet canon balls against marines... It happened even in the East Blue Saga... The very first episodes. I mean... Why using a technique which is pretty much likely to fail against someone who is made out of rubber? You're just, Luffy is going to explode because Ken has done it... But no one had the attributes Luffy had... Hell, you can't even harm Luffy with blunt attacks if you don't have Haki... He's been literally splattered by buildings and nothing happened.

Kenshiro still has long range slashing attacks and all I keep hearing is "he can't tag him." How did Jinbe tag him? Why is it that no one looks at Ken's other moves besides his pressure point techs. He's cut men in half from a distance too. And Kenshiro's style is described as a soft style, there's nothing blunt about it.Why does everyone keep confusing that?

I can use the entire Ennies Lobby saga to counter this argument... Hypersonic foe having a hard time dodging Gear2nd Luffy+Hypersonic foe whose kicks are so powerful they fire slashes that can cut through buildings like a hot knife cuts butter+DBZ-like moment more than once...+Luffy actually hitting so fast he seems to grow 5 arms in >slowmotion<... Lucci was by far one of the hardest fights Luffy had all because they pretty much had the same perks.

It doesn't matter if Kenshiro's style is called soft... it doesn't mean that he is a brute fighter... It means anything that doesn't involve cutting or slashing its called blunt... Like a hammer, like a punch, like pressure points, like a kick... See my point?

Im having this feeling i may want to CaV you mate :P

He was but Lucci didn't have Musou Tensei or Ki blasts. I'll settle for the fact that Lucci's style was somewhat an Homage to HNK. But He didn't have the powers that Ken had and he was hurting Luffy badly. I remember that fight vividly and wondered how in the hell Luffy was going to win. (Gear 3 answered that) But Lucci doesn't have ken's arsenal. After mastering Hokuto Sōke no Ken Ken was able to hit Kaioh's breathing pressure points without touching him. I think it was in chapter 192 or somewhere about there. Ken has weapons that don't even need to hit Luffy to land including Several Nanto Seiken attacks which are all long range fast cutting attacks, like Rei's slices or Juda and Shuu's sweeping Ki. I couldn't do a CAV to save my life, the time it takes to recall and hunt down all the stuff I've seen and read since I've been in Middle school (I started watching HNK in 6th grade and I'm 27 now.) would take up too much time and because most people have never read or watched the series they'd need context, meaning chapter numbers or full eps.

Luffy wasn't that harmed while fighting Lucci, it was right after Sai Dai Rin Rokuogan that Luffy was pushed to the limits. And its an attack that works the same way as Gyojin Karate, the same way as Haki affects Luffy, showed by Sentomaru in Sabaody. It's arguable that Lucci had some degree of Haki usage... He avoided Luffy's Gatling without trouble and even managed to grab his hands, same as Enel who was using Mantra. Luffy wasn't bleeding until Lucci began using his Cheetah form... You know... he has claws in that form and claws cut... Let alone Rankyaku.

Anyway, even if any of the techniques of Ken would work on Luffy (Im quite doubtful about it)... He still has Precognition and Speed by his side. Let lone sufficient striking power to put Ken down, unless you can show me Ken having Mountain lvl durability, since Luffy has punches that are already compared to Garp's punches.

#111 Edited by Nelomaxwell (10550 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage said:

@nelomaxwell said:

@ghostravage said:
@nelomaxwell said:

@ghostravage said:

@nelomaxwell: I mean... Luffy uses his whole body as a balloon to ricochet canon balls against marines... It happened even in the East Blue Saga... The very first episodes. I mean... Why using a technique which is pretty much likely to fail against someone who is made out of rubber? You're just, Luffy is going to explode because Ken has done it... But no one had the attributes Luffy had... Hell, you can't even harm Luffy with blunt attacks if you don't have Haki... He's been literally splattered by buildings and nothing happened.

Kenshiro still has long range slashing attacks and all I keep hearing is "he can't tag him." How did Jinbe tag him? Why is it that no one looks at Ken's other moves besides his pressure point techs. He's cut men in half from a distance too. And Kenshiro's style is described as a soft style, there's nothing blunt about it.Why does everyone keep confusing that?

I can use the entire Ennies Lobby saga to counter this argument... Hypersonic foe having a hard time dodging Gear2nd Luffy+Hypersonic foe whose kicks are so powerful they fire slashes that can cut through buildings like a hot knife cuts butter+DBZ-like moment more than once...+Luffy actually hitting so fast he seems to grow 5 arms in >slowmotion<... Lucci was by far one of the hardest fights Luffy had all because they pretty much had the same perks.

It doesn't matter if Kenshiro's style is called soft... it doesn't mean that he is a brute fighter... It means anything that doesn't involve cutting or slashing its called blunt... Like a hammer, like a punch, like pressure points, like a kick... See my point?

Im having this feeling i may want to CaV you mate :P

He was but Lucci didn't have Musou Tensei or Ki blasts. I'll settle for the fact that Lucci's style was somewhat an Homage to HNK. But He didn't have the powers that Ken had and he was hurting Luffy badly. I remember that fight vividly and wondered how in the hell Luffy was going to win. (Gear 3 answered that) But Lucci doesn't have ken's arsenal. After mastering Hokuto Sōke no Ken Ken was able to hit Kaioh's breathing pressure points without touching him. I think it was in chapter 192 or somewhere about there. Ken has weapons that don't even need to hit Luffy to land including Several Nanto Seiken attacks which are all long range fast cutting attacks, like Rei's slices or Juda and Shuu's sweeping Ki. I couldn't do a CAV to save my life, the time it takes to recall and hunt down all the stuff I've seen and read since I've been in Middle school (I started watching HNK in 6th grade and I'm 27 now.) would take up too much time and because most people have never read or watched the series they'd need context, meaning chapter numbers or full eps.

Luffy wasn't that harmed while fighting Lucci, it was right after Sai Dai Rin Rokuogan that Luffy was pushed to the limits. And its an attack that works the same way as Gyojin Karate, the same way as Haki affects Luffy, showed by Sentomaru in Sabaody. It's arguable that Lucci had some degree of Haki usage... He avoided Luffy's Gatling without trouble and even managed to grab his hands, same as Enel who was using Mantra. Luffy wasn't bleeding until Lucci began using his Cheetah form... You know... he has claws in that form and claws cut... Let alone Rankyaku.

Anyway, even if any of the techniques of Ken would work on Luffy (Im quite doubtful about it)... He still has Precognition and Speed by his side. Let lone sufficient striking power to put Ken down, unless you can show me Ken having Mountain lvl durability, since Luffy has punches that are already compared to Garp's punches.

What constitutes as mountain level durability? Why wouldn't cutting techs work on Luffy? I've posted scans of Ken slicing people in half. Why wouldn't cutting work, if it worked with other people? The Fishman Karate produces shockwaves yes? Ken's brother Raoh has produced shock waves with Gosho Ha a technique Ken was able to replicate in his battle with Han.

Watch till about 7:25.

Does surviving this count as mountain level durability? watch till 11: 46.

Also he's fought people with Precog before. Look how he wins. This dude is not fodder and this is young ken.

#112 Posted by Nelomaxwell (10550 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage:

I'd also wager to say that Souther's pretty damn fast and Ken caught him, he vanishes right in front of Ken's punch. That's not inang btw It's an after image.

#113 Edited by GhostRavage (9017 posts) - - Show Bio

@nelomaxwell:

What constitutes as mountain level durability?

Well, it constitutes being able to keep up after receiving an attack that would pretty much bust a mountain, i think the name its self explanatory. You don't have mountain busting durability if you're KO'd after receiving the attack, more likely you're able to >survive< the attack rather than tank it.

Something like this...

Hody has mountain durability since he received the attack and kept fighting afterwards, even becoming stronger.

Why wouldn't cutting techs work on Luffy? I've posted scans of Ken slicing people in half. Why wouldn't cutting work, if it worked with other people?

Who said it wouldn't work? However, Luffy managed to improve his Armament of Colors Haki way beyond average... His skin can turn significantly tougher than reinforced Iron, which is quite impressive for someone made out of rubber. Luffy's weakness are piercing attacks, however, the attacks need to be able to cut through metal if they want to cut Luffy because of Armament of Colors Haki.

The Fishman Karate produces shockwaves yes?

Nope... The Gyojin Karate works with the water of your body, it doesn't produce shockwaves, but as seen by Jinbe in Marine Fort, he has techniques that control the water, which are applied to the Gyojin Karate explained by Jinbe himself.

Ken's brother Raoh has produced shock waves with Gosho Ha a technique Ken was able to replicate in his battle with Han.

Good for him, however, Luffy already tanked an attack similar to that Pre-Timeskip. Nonetheless, Ken would need to tag him in the first place in order to perform such technique. Which is the main thing i don't see him doing.

As for the 2nd video. Nope, i don't consider surviving that fall a mountain durability feat, nonetheless, i think that video does not help your case at all. Ken seemed pretty weak in the video, a lot weaker than i pictured him.

#114 Edited by Nelomaxwell (10550 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: When did Luffy tank this attack? Kenshiro has been shown to be able to cut through steel, hell he's atomized steel. On the speed feat, I'm gonna agree to disagree with you. I've kept up with OP and I don't think Luffy is faster than Ken. Dodging Lasers doesn't mean much Nightwing has dodged lasers, does that make him faster than Ken? I'm still wondering how Luffy doesn't get shredded trying to attack Ken using Musou tensei.

#115 Edited by GhostRavage (9017 posts) - - Show Bio
@nelomaxwell said:

@ghostravage: When did Luffy tank this attack? Kenshiro has been shown to be able to cut through steel, hell he's atomized steel. On the speed feat, I'm gonna agree to disagree with you. I've kept up with OP and I don't think Luffy is faster than Ken. Dodging Lasers doesn't mean much Nightwing has dodged lasers, does that make him faster than Ken?

When did Luffy tank this attack?

He took it from Lucci, i told you didn't i?

On the speed feat, I'm gonna agree to disagree with you. I've kept up with OP and I don't think Luffy is faster than Ken. Dodging Lasers doesn't mean much Nightwing has dodged lasers, does that make him faster than Ken?

Who said dodging lasers was his best speed feat? No no no... The feat is used to look at what he says after dodging lightspeed lasers... "Too slow" which means he can dodge things that fast. The fight against Hody proves he can move at very high hypersonic speeds, probably mach 10-11 with some simple calculations. Ken doesn't move that fast, unless you can prove it.

Against Hody he managed to disappear in front of his eyes, i mean, literally, then moves so fast he literally reappears while hitting Hody and he didn't even notice him once... And on top of that, it took 10-11 seconds for the sound of Luffy's movement to get to him. As you know, while he uses Gear Second, the fact that his moves have that SFX its making a reference of breaking the sound barrier. And before you say Hody's reflexes are bad, he did the same against a Pacifista whose reflexes are monitored by a computer, WAY greater than a human.

Also, we have Caesar's instance, where Luffy literally avoids an instant transmission attack 7-8 times in the entire story arc, even Franky asks "How fast can he move" afterwards. Nonetheless, the 2nd time Caesar used it, it created an explosion of almost 100-150 meters, and Luffy dodge it at point blank... Ken has nothing on Luffy's speed.

Hell even if we take that small part in Lucci vs Luffy's fight... Luffy's punches move so fast he looks like he has grown 10 arms... in slowmotion! His punches are not even visible, and judging by the pressured air that its coming out of each punch after launched, its quite assumable each one of them is breaking greatly the sound barrier. That was Pre-Time Skip Luffy, current Luffy is WAY above this Luffy, he's faster, stronger, a better fighter, more durable, has Observation and Armament Haki mastery, along with Conqueror's (but i see that one as a non-factor)

Kenshiro has been shown to be able to cut through steel, hell he's atomized steel.

So he can cut through steel? Well, he has what it takes to cut Luffy, now, he needs to deal with the speed/precognition department. Scans though, i need to make my POV about it. :)

#116 Posted by Nelomaxwell (10550 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: The video doesn't play. I've posted vids of how Ken deals with precogs. He has an ability to mask his muscle and aura movements, so that ain't gonna work. Kenshiro has moved so fast the eyes couldn't see against Urighr and against Souther. He's also caught an an attack it would hit 1,109 pressure points in seconds and attacked the same fighter (his deranged brother Hyoh) so quickly that he no one saw.

#117 Posted by GhostRavage (9017 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: The video doesn't play. I've posted vids of how Ken deals with precogs. He has an ability to mask his muscle and aura movements, so that ain't gonna work. Kenshiro has moved so fast the eyes couldn't see against Urighr and against Souther. He's also caught an an attack it would hit 1,109 pressure points in seconds and attacked the same fighter (his deranged brother Hyoh) so quickly that he no one saw.

I edited the post, i chose another one hopefully its visible.

Moving on...

I've posted vids of how Ken deals with precogs. He has an ability to mask his muscle and aura movements, so that ain't gonna work.

Ken himself told him how his precognition works. It doesn't work the same way as Luffy's. Luffy has Observational Haki, it senses beings, he will know everything that is going to interact with him since he can sense them, it's not like mind reading nor muscle reading... he doesn't even need to look at the opponent, not the case with the Colonel, which ability work my looking at Ken's eyes and by reading his muscles. The only thing Ken can do to avoid Luffy from sensing him is die.

Should i post the scans/video where Rayleigh explains how Observational Haki works? Humble opinion though.

Kenshiro has moved so fast the eyes couldn't see against Urighr and against Souther.

How? Scans pls? Anyway, that wont be a problem for Luffy since he can handle highly hypersonic foes. While i haven't seen Ken fighting someone as fast as Luffy nor him fighting as fast as Luffy. Hell, Luffy is faster, has precognition, and can harden his body even harder than reinforced iron. The video you showed was against someone lightyears slower than Luffy. Again, videos like that wont help you case.

He's also caught an an attack it would hit 1,109 pressure points in seconds and attacked the same fighter (his deranged brother Hyoh) so quickly that he no one saw.

So he caught something like Luffy's jet gatling? Not so impressive although it should be a faster attack than Gatling... Not that Luffy fights that way anyways, he prefers to deliver single blows in combination with movement speed, something i see Ken lacking of.

#118 Edited by Nelomaxwell (10550 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage:
Those two attacks aren't even comparable, Raoh blew a building in half, with a punch. Lucci put a dent in a wall and that hurt Luffy. Souther vanished in front of a punch, twice. That's a significant speed feat and how again how is Luffy getting passed this below with out getting shredded you still haven't answered that. Haki, Gear 10000, it don't matter, He touches Musou Tensei ken and he gets hurt. The only way to defeat it is a Hokuto technique which distorts space, now if Haki can do that then you got it. Also notice the cutting damage with Musou tensei, just so you know what kind of damage it inflicts. Speed is irrelevant here.

#119 Posted by GhostRavage (9017 posts) - - Show Bio
#120 Edited by Nelomaxwell (10550 posts) - - Show Bio
#121 Posted by GhostRavage (9017 posts) - - Show Bio
#122 Edited by Nelomaxwell (10550 posts) - - Show Bio
#123 Posted by GhostRavage (9017 posts) - - Show Bio

@nelomaxwell: Hahahaha happened the same wtf?

Anyway...

Those two attacks aren't even comparable, Raoh blew a building in half, with a punch. Lucci put a dent in a wall and that hurt Luffy. Souther vanished in front of a punch, twice. That's a significant speed feat and how again how is Luffy getting passed this below with out getting shredded you still haven't answered that. Haki, Gear 10000, it don't matter, He touches Musou Tensei ken and he gets hurt. The only way to defeat it is a Hokuto technique which distorts space, now if Haki can do that then you got it. Also notice the cutting damage with Musou tensei, just so you know what kind of damage it inflicts. Speed is irrelevant here.

Those two attacks aren't even comparable, Raoh blew a building in half, with a punch. Lucci put a dent in a wall and that hurt Luffy.

Raoh blew a hole in a highly damaged building after nuclear warfare. While Lucci's broke a wall. Not that it matters since i wasn't comparing the power output but that Luffy managed to overcome such thing before. Nonetheless, Lucci's attack doesn't work with shockwaves.

Souther vanished in front of a punch, twice. That's a significant speed feat and how again how is Luffy getting passed this below with out getting shredded you still haven't answered that.

Vanishing from people is a very average thing to do in OPverse. Luffy is leagues above vanishing from people, he actually moves faster than perception itself as proven while fighting Hody when he totally disappear without any sign of presence, all by moving fast.

What do you mean by getting shredded?

Haki, Gear 10000, it don't matter, He touches Musou Tensei ken and he gets hurt. The only way to defeat it is a Hokuto technique which distorts space, now if Haki can do that then you got it.

How does Musou Tensei works? What do you mean by disrupting space?

Also notice the cutting damage with Musou tensei, just so you know what kind of damage it inflicts. Speed is irrelevant here.

Speed is always relevant, how is Ken touching Luffy in the first place? While Luffy has Legendary Stamina/durability, i believe its not the same case with Kenshiro, so does Kenshiro tires? Also, can he state in the "force field" like type of attack forever? If not, Luffy wins by waiting for him to get tier then nuke him.

#124 Posted by Nelomaxwell (10550 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: Did you see the scan. Do you see the slices on Raoh's Body. Exactly what I meant distorting space, Anryu tenha distorts the space around a target. I realize you have no knowledge of HNK. Kenshiro is the gold standard for stamina, are you kidding me? Dude you need to read HNK then make judgements because I feel like I have to explain simple things about the character to you and honestly It's becoming exhausting. I concede due to exhaustion, I feel like I'm having the same conversation I had with Ratava explaining the same stuff I've explained earlier in the thread. The only thing I can tell you is what I told him, read the manga (Which he still hasn't done) then make judgements, cause when you say Kenshiro's stamina isn't legendary, I just want to shake my head.

#125 Posted by GhostRavage (9017 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: Did you see the scan. Do you see the slices on Raoh's Body. Exactly what I meant distorting space, Anryu tenha distorts the space around a target. I realize you have no knowledge of HNK. Kenshiro is the gold standard for stamina, are you kidding me? Dude you need to read HNK then make judgements because I feel like I have to explain simple things about the character to you and honestly It's becoming exhausting. I concede due to exhaustion, I feel like I'm having the same conversation I had with Ratava explaining the same stuff I've explained earlier in the thread. The only thing I can tell you is what I told him, read the manga (Which he still hasn't done) then make judgements, cause when you say Kenshiro's stamina isn't legendary, I just want to shake my head.

Man don't give up so easily, im judging by what you've shown! He was overwhelmed by a few holes in his chest what do you want me to think if thats what you're showing? That alone isn't Legendary stamina. If im wrong on something, prove me wrong, even though im using the same instances you've shown to make my arguments.

Which one is Musou Tensei, the one that appears to be a bunch of Kenshiros? Because you know... Luffy could just jump over and that's it. Not to mention if that's speed, Luffy would have no problem following him, Bellamy fought in a similar way yet Luffy one shot'd him.

I think you know im not going to read an entire Manga just to argue with you, i prefer to have atleast basic knowledge about it and that's precisely what im receiving here.

#126 Posted by Nelomaxwell (10550 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: It's not speed it's Intangibility. When was he overwhelmed by holes i his chest? Are you talking about Teenage Kenshiro? Because I'm referring to EOS Kenshiro. Also the holes if you haven't guessed by now are a plot device to constantly reference the Big dipper, it's kind of a thing in the series (The Whole series is based on this constellation.) Bellamy had spring legs not intangibility, I saw that fight and it sucked.

#127 Edited by BeefiestName (82 posts) - - Show Bio

Musou Tensei is Kenshiro utilizing "the void" or "nothingness" - it's not speed. It's more like intangibility. It makes you essentially unable to be attacked.

Also, people questioning whether the Nanto attacks could slice through iron or steel, yes. Nanto Seiken, as Shin would say, can destroy any substance on earth by sheer force. Even relatively low level Nanto practitioners are shown to be able to cut through human bodies lenghtwise as well as objects like metal clubs. Also in the anime, Shin defeats General Barcom, who was based on a character borrowed by the manga's pilot. He had some technique that allowed his skin to break knife blades.

Something we also need to remember here, is that we're all assuming a mature, peak level Ken. At the start of the series, Kenshiro can be beaten by Shin. A full powered Kenshiro would crush the entire Roku Seiken like so many flies, and they are not slouches.

#128 Posted by GhostRavage (9017 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: It's not speed it's Intangibility. When was he overwhelmed by holes i his chest? Are you talking about Teenage Kenshiro? Because I'm referring to EOS Kenshiro. Also the holes if you haven't guessed by now are a plot device to constantly reference the Big dipper, it's kind of a thing in the series (The Whole series is based on this constellation.) Bellamy had spring legs not intangibility, I saw that fight and it sucked.

Good, but yo didn't answer my question... Does he stays that way all the time? Or its temporarily? Because Luffy could just avoid contact and that's it. Im talking about the video showing "mountain durability". I mentioned Bellamy because i thought it was speed.

#129 Edited by Nelomaxwell (10550 posts) - - Show Bio

@nelomaxwell said:

@ghostravage: It's not speed it's Intangibility. When was he overwhelmed by holes i his chest? Are you talking about Teenage Kenshiro? Because I'm referring to EOS Kenshiro. Also the holes if you haven't guessed by now are a plot device to constantly reference the Big dipper, it's kind of a thing in the series (The Whole series is based on this constellation.) Bellamy had spring legs not intangibility, I saw that fight and it sucked.

Good, but yo didn't answer my question... Does he stays that way all the time? Or its temporarily? Because Luffy could just avoid contact and that's it. Im talking about the video showing "mountain durability". I mentioned Bellamy because i thought it was speed.

There's no limit for it and he's never gotten exhausted doing it. We've never seen him limited to it but we know he can activate it at the drop of a hat.

#130 Posted by GhostRavage (9017 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage said:

@nelomaxwell said:

@ghostravage: It's not speed it's Intangibility. When was he overwhelmed by holes i his chest? Are you talking about Teenage Kenshiro? Because I'm referring to EOS Kenshiro. Also the holes if you haven't guessed by now are a plot device to constantly reference the Big dipper, it's kind of a thing in the series (The Whole series is based on this constellation.) Bellamy had spring legs not intangibility, I saw that fight and it sucked.

Good, but yo didn't answer my question... Does he stays that way all the time? Or its temporarily? Because Luffy could just avoid contact and that's it. Im talking about the video showing "mountain durability". I mentioned Bellamy because i thought it was speed.

There's no limit for it and he's never gotten exhausted doing it. We've never seen him limited to it but we know he can activate it at the drop of a hat.

If it doesn't have a limit, what can i say... Stalemate? because if it doesn't have a limit he's intangible all the time i assume?

#131 Posted by Nelomaxwell (10550 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: If he decides to be, the move just snaps on when he wants, It's Hax. For purposes of entertainment he doesn't use all the time of course because then he'd kill everyone who didn't have Anryu Tenha or Musou Tensei. I just wonder how Luffy would be able to recover from the attack? I mean I know he's never truly been beaten except against Crocodile and Bart Kuma (The latter was kinda BFR, though.) But to my understanding that's because Oda up until Ace didn't want to kill anyone and preferred to shatter their dreams instead. Which is kinda a Deus Ex Machina.

#132 Posted by GhostRavage (9017 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: If he decides to be, the move just snaps on when he wants, It's Hax. For purposes of entertainment he doesn't use all the time of course because then he'd kill everyone who didn't have Anryu Tenha or Musou Tensei. I just wonder how Luffy would be able to recover from the attack? I mean I know he's never truly been beaten except against Crocodile and Bart Kuma (The latter was kinda BFR, though.) But to my understanding that's because Oda up until Ace didn't want to kill anyone and preferred to shatter their dreams instead. Which is kinda a Deus Ex Machina.

How is he hitting Luffy in the first place? That's why i said stalemate... Luffy can still use his speed defensively.

#133 Posted by Nelomaxwell (10550 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: The hit comes from passing through Luffy. You telling me Luffy's not gonna try and hit first? We both know that's in his nature.

#134 Posted by GhostRavage (9017 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage: The hit comes from passing through Luffy. You telling me Luffy's not gonna try and hit first? We both know that's in his nature.

Sure but his precognition lets him predict exactly what his foe is going to do... Even describing how he will do it...

It's not on Kenshiro's character to use Musou Tensei off the bat am i right?

#135 Posted by BeefiestName (82 posts) - - Show Bio

Kenshiro has beaten enemies with precognitive abilities, and has used Musou Tensei as an opening move before. When he doesn't, there's either a plot reason for it, or it's just for the sake of the fight lasting more than 2 seconds because that wouldn't make it interesting to see. Also OP says bloodlust is ON. This means Kenshiro will try to end this fight in the most expedient fashion possible. He skips the usual foreplay and goes right to Musou Tensei. Fight is over. Knowing what's coming doesn't help if you're powerless to do anything about it.

#136 Edited by Ratava (4005 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage said:

@nelomaxwell said:

@ghostravage: The hit comes from passing through Luffy. You telling me Luffy's not gonna try and hit first? We both know that's in his nature.

Sure but his precognition lets him predict exactly what his foe is going to do... Even describing how he will do it...

It's not on Kenshiro's character to use Musou Tensei off the bat am i right?

mt again, he doesnt use it for long periods of time, just avoiding certain attacks, he still gets hurt in fights he uses mt so he doenst do it permanently, and with precog Luffy knows that he would receive dmg so he just waits till kenshiro is tangible again, if those little cuts he receives by mt-pass-through bothering him in the first place

@beefiestname said:

Kenshiro has beaten enemies with precognitive abilities, and has used Musou Tensei as an opening move before. When he doesn't, there's either a plot reason for it, or it's just for the sake of the fight lasting more than 2 seconds because that wouldn't make it interesting to see. Also OP says bloodlust is ON. This means Kenshiro will try to end this fight in the most expedient fashion possible. He skips the usual foreplay and goes right to Musou Tensei. Fight is over. Knowing what's coming doesn't help if you're powerless to do anything about it.

yeah - the problem is you can´t compare the precog haki grants and those shown in the video used by the commander. And i guess BL on is for both so he won´t be able to tag luffy

@logia: again, you can´t hurt their pysical body without haki, and in the "kenshior/raoh vs. admirals" thread you haven´t shown one way in which they can affect logias, especially someone like Kizaru wo is composed of light in his ele-form, so the ken-verse is not winning against logias.

is there a problem with the site? i have to re-edit a post two or three times till my reply isn´t vanishing anymore and i don´t get notifications if someone is replying to my posts.

#137 Edited by Nelomaxwell (10550 posts) - - Show Bio
#138 Edited by Ratava (4005 posts) - - Show Bio

again - my reply was deleted after refreshing this site - whats going on :P

#139 Posted by Nelomaxwell (10550 posts) - - Show Bio

@ratava: General principles and stubbornness.

#140 Edited by Ratava (4005 posts) - - Show Bio

@nelomaxwell said:

@ratava: General principles and stubbornness.

^^

you saw my reply beore it got deleted? whats happening here - this forum is buggy as hell lately - if i edit a reply it gets deleted at the first edit

#141 Posted by Chibi_cute (4553 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

#142 Posted by RoyceLunar (285 posts) - - Show Bio
#143 Posted by lowlaville (4821 posts) - - Show Bio

So fair warning: I'm not going to debate with Kenshiro fanboys, but the facts are:

A: Luffy is too fast.

B: He knows when and where Kenshiro strikes.

Luffy is a 1000+ tonner. So don't even say his punches dont hurt. They do.

#144 Edited by Ratava (4005 posts) - - Show Bio

@lowlaville said:

So fair warning: I'm not going to debate with Kenshiro fanboys, but the facts are:

yeah best thing you can do, i am done with them too

#145 Posted by CaptainMarvelThunder (1107 posts) - - Show Bio

Even if Hokuto Shinken does not work on Luffy (which I think it would/ and even if it does not work in the exploding department Kenshiro can also hit pressure points that make individuals fall asleep or loose eyesight among other things), Nanto Seiken should work fine (in addition to this Luffy would not be able to hit him if he knows Musou Tensei).Luffy can't be King of the Pirates if he is already dead. I think Kenshiro would win this.

#146 Posted by HeartOfMadness (1 posts) - - Show Bio

Are we forgetting the part with the Joker? (Yes there is a guy in HnK named The Joker)

Kenshiro was able to keep up with the Joker (Someone that can move so fast you can't see them) and catch him... Are we also forgetting that Kenshiro has the power to slice Luffy in half with Nanto Seiken?

With the power of Musou Tensei, the ability to learn someone's move-set just by fighting them, pressure points, high will power, speed, strength and durability, I think Kenshiro would take this 8/10.

#147 Posted by Gustofwind (606 posts) - - Show Bio

Kenshiro would win, the guy had a skyscraper fall on his head and he didn't even flinch and just continued walking, Luffy's durability is also meaningless against Kenshiro because of Hokuto Shin Ken.

#148 Edited by Ratava (4005 posts) - - Show Bio

@heartofmadness said:

Are we forgetting the part with the Joker? (Yes there is a guy in HnK named The Joker)

Kenshiro was able to keep up with the Joker (Someone that can move so fast you can't see them) and catch him... Are we also forgetting that Kenshiro has the power to slice Luffy in half with Nanto Seiken?

With the power of Musou Tensei, the ability to learn someone's move-set just by fighting them, pressure points, high will power, speed, strength and durability, I think Kenshiro would take this 8/10.

the fight with joker is non canon like so many feats people use to overhype kenshiro, eg train stopping or the hit with the girder. the rest was already discussed. luffy is way too fast for kenshiro

@gustofwind said:

Kenshiro would win, the guy had a skyscraper fall on his head and he didn't even flinch and just continued walking, Luffy's durability is also meaningless against Kenshiro because of Hokuto Shin Ken.

lol

#149 Posted by Gustofwind (606 posts) - - Show Bio

@ratava said:

@heartofmadness said:

Are we forgetting the part with the Joker? (Yes there is a guy in HnK named The Joker)

Kenshiro was able to keep up with the Joker (Someone that can move so fast you can't see them) and catch him... Are we also forgetting that Kenshiro has the power to slice Luffy in half with Nanto Seiken?

With the power of Musou Tensei, the ability to learn someone's move-set just by fighting them, pressure points, high will power, speed, strength and durability, I think Kenshiro would take this 8/10.

the fight with joker is non canon like so many feats people use to overhype kenshiro, eg train stopping or the hit with the girder. the rest was already discussed. luffy is way too fast for kenshiro

@gustofwind said:

Kenshiro would win, the guy had a skyscraper fall on his head and he didn't even flinch and just continued walking, Luffy's durability is also meaningless against Kenshiro because of Hokuto Shin Ken.

lol

How mature of you...

#150 Posted by nickzambuto (13803 posts) - - Show Bio

Kenshiro would win, the guy had a skyscraper fall on his head and he didn't even flinch and just continued walking, Luffy's durability is also meaningless against Kenshiro because of Hokuto Shin Ken.

What's that?