KC Flash (KingdomCome Wally) vs THANOS

Nevermind that, I already gave a perfectly good way for Wally to get through the shields without vibrating in the previous pages.

everythings already been said. really no point in keeping this going. oh and before i forget, i keep forgetting that this isnt even regular flash this is Kingdom Come Flash. Who is faster.

@killemall: as always thanks for the breakdown.

1) Its pretty standard what Phasing is. Vision does it, Kitty Pride does it, many others can do it lol.

2) Flash of some kind IMP SBP in past Flash vs whoever threads.

Unless Flash Fanboy was full of crap when he argued this. If that was IMP, I am not impressed.

3) So if he does not need contact, then what stops him from Speed stealing the universe? What is the range limits?

In this it seems to be touch base.

@foreverevil:

Read Killemalls post above by what I mean of the Phasing probaly not working. He explains it better and with more scans of other situations.

@indiecomicsftw:

Right, so you understand the difference between matter manipulation and molecular vibration?

" Flash of some kind IMP SBP in past Flash vs whoever threads." Amazing English. I didn't understand a word of that.

What are it range limits?

There's a scan on Page 2 of Wally doing it to an entire planet.

@indiecomicsftw: i saw it. and i disagree. but like i said before. we've already talked about ways flash can win and none that thanos wins. so im not interested in continuing this. Peyton Manning is bringing his team back. You guys are crazy if youre not watching.

1) does it matter the source of the Molecule Manipulation when Thanos is impervious to Reality Warping, which is basically Manipulation of Energy and Molecules?

2) Well I guess that will be a mystery.

3) So Planet range, a Planet which he touches I might add lol.

Yeah, I think I am out too. Its just nitpicking at this point.

@sheenlantern: he did use it on SBP I thought but I'm not so sure about the IMP. The math behind it means it should decimate planets if not entire solar systems. Mass*(infinity)=Infinite force. But in comics it significantly less powerful than the laws of physics state it should be because well they are comic books either way it's should do damage to thanos, I wouldn't call it a deciding factor though. Flash manipulates the vibrational speed of the particles that make up his body to move them inbetween and around particles in his way. Thanos' shields could not possibly go up before flash could reach him. Drax ripped out thanos' heart to kill him, what would happen if Wally removed his brain, and heart? If he's immortal he may still be alive but there is nothing that proves he would be able to operate his body without his brain.(To my knowledge.)

@zmasonite: good points. didnt think abut the drax stuff

@sheenlantern: Flash's phasing is different from Vision's phasing. Vision changes his density, Flash either moves his molecules through the other object's molecules, or in some cases with Wally, literally vibrates to a different dimensional frequency. So Visions phasing example is irrelevant.

Why is this relevant...?

^^^^^^*lols

darkraiden is one of the funnier marvel "fanaticals". good stuff

I thought so, thats why i said i dont really know how Flash phasing works, to even know if the phasing part can be countered by the shield..

@sheenlantern: Wally can't hit with the force of a star either. I have not seen such power output from any of the Flashes yet.

WBHulk's attacks are still superior to the IMP's most powerful showing.

I'd like to know what DC personally thinks about Flash. They should make Flash go against the Spectre in one of their stories, since the Flash fans deem him that powerful.

Good God! Hulk is not FTL! Who? What.... Howdid.. Conclu... What? When did Hulk become FTL?

TRUTH.

@citizenbane said:

@darkraiden said:

Thanos can at least think at 30 million times the speed of light. That should be enough.

Lmaoo.

He never did million IMP's in nanosecond don't be silly.

@foreverevil: @zmasonite: you guys display limited knowledge on Thanos.

1- Drax only managed to hurt thanos because he is genetically made to kill Thanos like his kryptonite

2- Thanos has total control of his molecules so nothing can change our phase through him unless he wants to.

3- The IMP at it's most destructive kod an unknown Martian while creating a small crater. Thanos has withstood planet destroying blows unphased, Flash is not hurting him that way.

3- Bfr into speed force is useless because Thanos can teleport

4- Speed steal won't work because Thanos has unlimited cosmic energy and speed steal didn't slow down SCW anti monitor so there's a limit to whom it works on

Now it may take Thanos One second to react but since Flash only has that second to finish this and can't afterwards Thanos can release a universal AoE attack that Flash can't outrun effectively ending this fight.

Or even tp Flash, yes flash can increase his thoughts but that's useless against someone who has above omega level tp and has tpd Hulk who is more resistant than Flash, Fallen One, Moondragon aN omega level telepath, Nate a cosmic level telepath, etc

Flash can do something in that second but nothing more than a mosquito bite To Thanos.

Right. He was turned to stone and annihilated by an anti-matter bomb because he wanted that stuff to happen. I mean, absolutely nothing can change or phase through him unless he wants it to, right? Good grief.

Phasing through Thanos isn't changing his molecular structure in any way, and the point makes no sense at all. I swear you people are just taking the idea of "total molecular control" and applying it in whatever manner you see fit depending on your interpretation of what that comprises. Total molecular control? That means.......nothing can phase through him! Nothing can drain him! Nothing can anything him! Why? Because........total molecular control!

3- The IMP at it's most destructive kod an unknown Martian while creating a small crater. Thanos has withstood planet destroying blows unphased, Flash is not hurting him that way.

The IMP at its most destructive, if you want to call that an IMP, blew the COIE Anti-Monitor's armor to bits mere moments after about 50 different heroes failed at it. If you believe Thanos can withstand Chain Lightning West punches and soak them up like they're nothing, more power to you.

3- Bfr into speed force is useless because Thanos can teleport

Who cares if Thanos can teleport? If he's BFR'd, he loses then and there. The ability to come back doesn't matter, and I have no idea why people keep insisting that it does. This was the whole point of that big moderately sized minor debate about whether Nightcrawler instantly loses any fight on the Battle Forum because he's making a quick stop in the brimstone dimension every time he 'ports.

Not to mention that depending on whom you're reading, the Speed Force erases your identity and leaves your mind completely blank when you're merged with it.

4- Speed steal won't work because Thanos has unlimited cosmic energy

Again, take one meaningless phrase and apply it to any problematic situation. Speed-stealing drains kinetic energy. What does unlimited cosmic energy have to do with anything? Is Thanos not running on kinetic energy? Is he going to somehow substitute lost kinetic energy with all that unlimited cosmic energy?

and speed steal didn't slow down SCW anti monitor so there's a limit to whom it works on

When was speed stealing even used during Sinestro Corps War? I'm pretty sure Wally wasn't even on Earth at the time.

afterwards Thanos can release a universal AoE attack

Or even tp Flash, yes flash can increase his thoughts but that's useless against someone who has above omega level tp and has tpd Hulk who is more resistant than Flash, Fallen One, Moondragon aN omega level telepath, Nate a cosmic level telepath, etc

Fallen One is featless. Martian Manhunter has better telepathy feats than both Moondragon and Nate, and Thanos never fought Nate. That was the Thanos clone that originally fought Ka-Zar.

Half the people displaying limited knowledge on Thanos in Thanos threads are the ones arguing for Thanos. But then you could say the same thing about basically any character, I suppose.

Explain why, he can do one every picosecond.

Oh well, if you don't want to take his word for it, we'll just have to work it out for ourselves...

Right, now just multiply that by 14 trillion, then add that he can throw at least one million of those punches per nanosecond. And we're set.

@citizenbane:

Right. He was turned to stone and annihilated by an anti-matter bomb because he wanted that stuff to happen.

1. Plot-Device Adam Warlock did the first to Thanos, who got EXACTLY what he wanted; Death.

2. Thanos was in an incredibly weakened condition due to the transition into the Cancer-verse, as the Avatar of Death he is linked to Death itself, and being in a universe where Death does not exist and where life was literally overflowing to the point of packing the entire universe, his strength was severely diminished and the instant he entered the Cancer-verse he collapsed in shock. He had barely begun adjusting when Drax stuck him with a localized anti-matter device, and Thanos still couldn't be killed.

The IMP at its most destructive, if you want to call that an IMP, blew the COIE Anti-Monitor's armor to bits mere moments after about 50 different heroes failed at it. If you believe Thanos can withstand Chain Lightning West punches and soak them up like they're nothing, more power to you.

Well Thanos can't be killed so it doesn't matter. Also his shields withstood Galactus and the Omega, which is 2x Galactus Power.

Who cares if Thanos can teleport? If he's BFR'd, he loses then and there. The ability to come back doesn't matter, and I have no idea why people keep insisting that it does.

Because it does matter. If you're able to get back within a reasonable time frame, then the fight is still on. It's not like boxing. It's more like Pro Wrestling. Getting tossed out of the ring doesn't mean you lose. Otherwise Thanos just ports Wally and auto-wins. And Wally moving Thanos into the Speed Force means BFR'ing himself in the process to make it happen.

Not to mention that depending on whom you're reading, the Speed Force erases your identity and leaves your mind completely blank when you're merged with it.

And Thanos has crossed multiple dimensions and planes of existence without losing himself or being affected by them.

Again, take one meaningless phrase and apply it to any problematic situation. Speed-stealing drains kinetic energy. What does unlimited cosmic energy have to do with anything? Is Thanos not running on kinetic energy? Is he going to somehow substitute lost kinetic energy with all that unlimited cosmic energy?

Does a car move forward on kinetic energy? Or is it the gasoline in a combustion engine creating force and energy to create that momentum? No amount of physical exertion can tire Thanos and Thanos can, of course, increase his physical stats through Cosmic Energy.

Besides Thanos can just AoE and kill Flash so Speed Stealing is just pointless anyway since he can't stop that from happening.

Fallen One is featless.

Doesn't matter much. Stated as strongest Herald, which doesn't mean much, since Thanos stomps the whole lot of them anyway.

Martian Manhunter has better telepathy feats than both Moondragon and Nate, and Thanos never fought Nate. That was the Thanos clone that originally fought Ka-Zar.

X-man and Hulk were getting trounced by a Thanosi, and all they managed to do was push it back into Terraforming dimension where it was trapped. And as people noted before, Thanos can use an exotic form of TP, and his own TP and defenses are such that you can't even touch his mind unless he either lets you, or some Cosmic Force has weakened him so much that they're able to. Such as when Starlord used a Cosmic Cube to temporarily stun Thanos, and it took Three Powerful Telepaths to keep him from getting back up and slaughtering them all.

How many times has that Flash vs Anti Monitor instance been debunked?

@reikai: I'm really enjoying thee debates, but a few quick things.

Pre-52 speedforce BFR can vary based on a lot of things. As shown above, bart allen has to physically push SBP into it.

Speed steal drains all kinetic and potential kinetic energy from someone, leaving them permanently incapable of movement. Other characters that never tire, like Zoom, Superman, Amazo, and inertia, have all been effected by Speed steal in the same way.

@reikai: "Does a car move forward on kinetic energy? Or is it the gasoline in a combustion engine creating force and energy to create that momentum?" I'm just gonna let you think long and hard about that for a while. Lol.

@CitizenBane: "@thanosii said:

2- Thanos has total control of his molecules so nothing can change our phase through him unless he wants to.

Right. He was turned to stone and annihilated by an anti-matter bomb because he wanted that stuff to happen. I mean, absolutely nothing can change or phase through him unless he wants it to, right? Good grief.

Phasing through Thanos isn't changing his molecular structure in any way, and the point makes no sense at all. I swear you people are just taking the idea of "total molecular control" and applying it in whatever manner you see fit depending on your interpretation of what that comprises. Total molecular control? That means.......nothing can phase through him! Nothing can drain him! Nothing can anything him! Why? Because........total molecular control!

3- The IMP at it's most destructive kod an unknown Martian while creating a small crater. Thanos has withstood planet destroying blows unphased, Flash is not hurting him that way.

The IMP at its most destructive, if you want to call that an IMP, blew the COIE Anti-Monitor's armor to bits mere moments after about 50 different heroes failed at it. If you believe Thanos can withstand Chain Lightning West punches and soak them up like they're nothing, more power to you.

3- Bfr into speed force is useless because Thanos can teleport

Who cares if Thanos can teleport? If he's BFR'd, he loses then and there. The ability to come back doesn't matter, and I have no idea why people keep insisting that it does. This was the whole point of that big moderately sized minor debate about whether Nightcrawler instantly loses any fight on the Battle Forum because he's making a quick stop in the brimstone dimension every time he 'ports.

Not to mention that depending on whom you're reading, the Speed Force erases your identity and leaves your mind completely blank when you're merged with it.

4- Speed steal won't work because Thanos has unlimited cosmic energy

Again, take one meaningless phrase and apply it to any problematic situation. Speed-stealing drains kinetic energy. What does unlimited cosmic energy have to do with anything? Is Thanos not running on kinetic energy? Is he going to somehow substitute lost kinetic energy with all that unlimited cosmic energy?

and speed steal didn't slow down SCW anti monitor so there's a limit to whom it works on

When was speed stealing even used during Sinestro Corps War? I'm pretty sure Wally wasn't even on Earth at the time.

afterwards Thanos can release a universal AoE attack Or even tp Flash, yes flash can increase his thoughts but that's useless against someone who has above omega level tp and has tpd Hulk who is more resistant than Flash, Fallen One, Moondragon aN omega level telepath, Nate a cosmic level telepath, etc

Fallen One is featless. Martian Manhunter has better telepathy feats than both Moondragon and Nate, and Thanos never fought Nate. That was the Thanos clone that originally fought Ka-Zar.

Half the people displaying limited knowledge on Thanos in Thanos threads are the ones arguing for Thanos. But then you could say the same thing about basically any character, I suppose." Pretty much this. Gaah bane. Couldn't have said it better myself.

@dratini1331: Comic Amazo is easy to beat. Disband the JLA and he's powerless. And none of those folks use Cosmic Energy, which allows people to do almost anything. For Thanos that has been everything from beams to shields and transmuting others, plus manipulating and absorbing various forms of energy.

I remember in the 90's FF toon where Doom with Surfer's powers dropped the Thing's metabolism to the point he was nothing but a living statue and couldn't move. In the comics Surfer could permanently make the Hulk human as Banner, as well as numerous other things, but he's still just a baby to Thanos.

The way I see it. Wally tries to speed steal, and to counter this Thanos uses his Cosmic Energy to counter the effect.

Superman punchs much more harder than Wally (IMP)

No he doesn't. Superman's punches are only planetary.

So whats Wally's best ? K.O'd a super villian ?

Oh and also. Neurons need kinetic energy to be able to fire off and transport the electrons in your brain to other neurons. If your brain has no kinetic energy to do so the essentially you cannot think. So when thanos would be drained of kinetic energy(something that is not unique to thanos and he has never shown control over) in the first 1/27384958326(random number) of a second he won't be able to move or think or anything regardless if he's alive. Not tell me, would somebody that is brain dead be able to get up out of a hospital bed? Much less twitch a finger or blink? Certainly wouldn't be able to put up a force field lol. Then in his now weakened state he has his brain removed by Wally, as he has no feats to prove that Wally would not be able to do so.

@reikai: I personally don't see how that's relevant. Unless the cosmic energy can transformed into kinetic energy he'd be stuck. Don't get me wrong, I don't think that's a win for Wally, I'm just saying that there's more to it than removing the current movement, but rather it removes the ability of movement.

@dratini1331: Put it this way. Surfer's board flies and moves via the Power Cosmic. It doesn't require kinetic force to do so. Cosmic Energy is essentially the highest form of energy in the MU. It can be used to create and manipulate virtually every other energy form. That would include kinetic energy. Proven as cosmic energy can be used for acceleration. Especially by Makkari who almost solely used his Cosmic Energy expressly for that purpose.

So let me get this straight: the point being made way up top is that nothing can ever affect Thanos because he controls his entire molecular structure, but when it does happen we must protest that it's a plot device (what happened to Thanos refusing to let it happen?) and then throw in some nonsense about Thanos actually letting it happen because that's what he wants, he wants to die, and the proof in the pudding of how he clearly wanted to die at Warlock's hands so badly is that he killed off Warlock in the first place and then, I dunno, patiently waited for Warlock to come back to life in the very same story and kill him in return?

Either this explanation is complete nonsense, or Thanos is an idiot. And we know for a fact that one of those two things is not true.

2. Thanos was in an incredibly weakened condition due to the transition into the Cancer-verse, as the Avatar of Death he is linked to Death itself, and being in a universe where Death does not exist and where life was literally overflowing to the point of packing the entire universe, his strength was severely diminished and the instant he entered the Cancer-verse he collapsed in shock. He had barely begun adjusting when Drax stuck him with a localized anti-matter device, and Thanos still couldn't be killed.

This has literally nothing to do with the point that was made and rebutted.

Well Thanos can't be killed so it doesn't matter.

And if killing someone was the only way to win a fight, we'd have this debate wrapped up right here.

Because it does matter. If you're able to get back within a reasonable time frame, then the fight is still on. It's not like boxing. It's more like Pro Wrestling. Getting tossed out of the ring doesn't mean you lose. Otherwise Thanos just ports Wally and auto-wins. And Wally moving Thanos into the Speed Force means BFR'ing himself in the process to make it happen.

Who says it's not like boxing and it's like pro wrestling? Wally can vibrate across universes and timelines, so that's not really an auto-win. And no, it doesn't mean BFR'ing himself. When Wally fought Cobalt Blue he was dragging him through and into the Speed Force while running half-in/half-out.

And Thanos has crossed multiple dimensions and planes of existence without losing himself or being affected by them.

So has Batman, it's not a big deal. That scan is wholly irrelevant. Stripping your identity away is a unique attribute of the Speed Force and its dimensional laws. Thanos crossing over into universes that don't behave that way or strike through time at your life and your memories doesn't matter.

Does a car move forward on kinetic energy? Or is it the gasoline in a combustion engine creating force and energy to create that momentum? No amount of physical exertion can tire Thanos and Thanos can, of course, increase his physical stats through Cosmic Energy.

......

...........

.................

YES?What on Earth are you talking about? Of course the car runs on kinetic energy. Everything that moves runs on kinetic energy. Seriously, what do you think kinetic energy is? The gasoline in the combustion engine? It flows because of kinetic energy. The chemical reactions that create the energy to move the vehicle? Wouldn't happen without kinetic energy. The blood that's flowing through your body right now? Wouldn't be doing so without kinetic energy.

This is one of the most ludicrous things I've ever heard on the Vine.

Besides Thanos can just AoE and kill Flash so Speed Stealing is just pointless anyway since he can't stop that from happening.

Sure, he can. He vibrates through the blast, like he's done before.

Doesn't matter much. Stated as strongest Herald, which doesn't mean much, since Thanos stomps the whole lot of them anyway.

It would mean a lot more if the strongest Herald's track record didn't consist of losing every fight he's ever been in.

X-man and Hulk were getting trounced by a Thanosi, and all they managed to do was push it back into Terraforming dimension where it was trapped. And as people noted before, Thanos can use an exotic form of TP, and his own TP and defenses are such that you can't even touch his mind unless he either lets you, or some Cosmic Force has weakened him so much that they're able to. Such as when Starlord used a Cosmic Cube to temporarily stun Thanos, and it took Three Powerful Telepaths to keep him from getting back up and slaughtering them all.

I like how this, once more, has absolutely nothing to do with any point put forward. If any of Thanos' exotic forms of TP don't work by affecting people's thoughts and sensory perceptions a la ........basically every other form of TP, let me know. The only one of those three telepaths worth mentioning or describing as powerful with a straight face is Moondragon, and Thanos' defenses would be really relevant if Flash were launching psychic attacks here. It's always better to address the points being made instead of sidetracking the discussion with Ra! Ra! Thanos' Greatest Hits!

That version of Amazo from JLA 27 was specifically programmed to align its abilities with the JLA's roster. There are about 16 other versions, none of whom have that dependency on the League roster. Read up on comic Amazo sometime.

Many, many times, if we're counting "I don't like it and so it shouldn't have happened" as legitimate debunkment/debunking/debunkance/whatever the word is. I mean, don't get me wrong, there are ways of debunking that just as there are ways of debunking just about everything imaginable in comics, but most attempts at debunking that feat usually descend into anti-Flash resentment, often because most people haven't even read the comic in question.

Can someone post feats of KC Wally?

Ok......after making that argument, I don't want to make it seem like I'm cutting off the opportunities for a response or rebuttal (I'm not trying to, I swear), but I just read the OP again and it says win by death only, and given that Thanos can't die there's not really any way to argue for Flash.

That said, I do think arguments could be made for either either side and saying Wally wins 10/10 or Thanos wins 10/10 doesn't involve as much thought as it should, so if anyone wants to recreate this thread with regular Wally (KC is virtually featless, and I don't know if anyone pointed that out because I haven't read through the whole thing) and minus the death clause, feel free. Or probably bump an existing Flash vs Thanos thread, there's bound to be one of those somewhere.