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#1 Edited by dorukesin (7421 posts) - - Show Bio
William Billy Batson

vs

Thor Odinson + Bruce Baner

RULES

  • Bloodlust:ON
  • No Morals
  • Out Character
  • Fight to the death
  • All KC issues are allowed

Fight Song

#2 Edited by Frozen (19271 posts) - - Show Bio

Captain Marvel.

He was on level with KC Superman, speed-blitzed him (faster than KC Superman), knocked him off his feet with a punch and Waid stated he was near his level. KC Superman is roughly 3-4x more powerful than Pre-Flashpoint normal Superman.

He's too fast and strong.

#3 Posted by dondave (39681 posts) - - Show Bio

Wasn't KC Captain Marvel killed by a Nuke?

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#4 Edited by Frozen (19271 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

Wasn't KC Captain Marvel killed by a Nuke?

I think that was Billy, not Marvel.

#5 Edited by dorukesin (7421 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

Wasn't KC Captain Marvel killed by a Nuke?

he outraced Superman to reach the bomb first, called Shazam's lightning to ignite the bomb before it struck the earth.The nuke killed him when he changed into Billy

#6 Edited by Frozen (19271 posts) - - Show Bio

If KC Captain Marvel is just as fast if not faster than KC Superman then I do not see how the team can win. If normal Superman's speed is too much for either one of them, how will they deal with a Captain Marvel who's just as fast/if not faster than KC Superman, who is clearly much faster than normal Superman?

#7 Posted by dondave (39681 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen What makes you say that KC Superman is much faster than normal Superman?

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#8 Edited by dorukesin (7421 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

If KC Captain Marvel is as fast if not faster than KC Superman then I do not see how the team can win. If normal Superman's speed is too much for either one of them, how will they deal with someone who's just as fast/faster than a Superman who is much faster than normal Superman?

we can clearly said that Kingdom Come Billy is much faster than Kingdom Come Clark.He left him in the dust

#9 Edited by Frozen (19271 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@frozen What makes you say that KC Superman is much faster than normal Superman?

Why not?

It makes no sense for him to be slower considering every showing they had together asserted KC Superman as superior in every physical way, nor is it logical. Also: he was literally intended to be a future version of Post-Crisis Superman, as shown in The Kingdom.

By Jay's own admission, KC Superman was clearly much faster him, whereas Post-Crisis Superman was only just a match for Jay (by Jay's own admission).

#10 Edited by Night4345 (6866 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@frozen What makes you say that KC Superman is much faster than normal Superman?

When KC Superman was with the JSA he caught Jay Garrick in the speed force and Jay compared his speed with Wally.

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#11 Edited by dorukesin (7421 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

@dondave said:

@frozen What makes you say that KC Superman is much faster than normal Superman?

Why not?

It makes no sense for him to be slower considering every showing they had asserted KC Superman as better in every physical was. Also: he was literally intended to be a future version of Post-Crisis Superman, as shown in The Kingdom.

the kingdom was non canon too IMO

#12 Posted by dondave (39681 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen He's only shown to be more durable than normal Superman and that's only in one showing.

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#13 Edited by Frozen (19271 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave: No it isn't. He was shown to be much stronger. It takes strength not to move from that punch, it takes durability to not get hurt.

By Jay's own admission, KC Superman was clearly much faster him, whereas Post-Crisis Superman was only just a match for Jay (by Jay's own admission).

#14 Edited by dorukesin (7421 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

Post-Crisis Superman was only just a match for Jay (by Jay's own admission).

I'm disagree with that.Post Crisis Superman is faster than Jay

#15 Posted by dondave (39681 posts) - - Show Bio

@night4345 When did he catch Jay in the Speed Force? All I recall him do is block a bolt of lighting from touching Jay.

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#16 Edited by Frozen (19271 posts) - - Show Bio

@dorukesin said:

@frozen said:

Post-Crisis Superman was only just a match for Jay (by Jay's own admission).

I'm disagree with that.Post Crisis Superman is faster than Jay

Even if he is, it's not by much - whereas KC Superman was much faster.

#17 Edited by Frozen (19271 posts) - - Show Bio

@dorukesin: Whether it was retconned or not, Kal L is seen at the end of it and the Paradise Dimension can't be retconned in Pre-Flashpoint continuity.

#18 Posted by InjusticeForAll (513 posts) - - Show Bio

KC takes it. Very easily too.

#20 Posted by Frozen (19271 posts) - - Show Bio

@night4345: @dondave: It should also be noted.

Geoff Johns wrote normal Superman being somewhat comparable to Jay Garrick in DC First: Flash/Superman. He also then wrote KC Superman being much faster than Jay by Jay's own admission.

#21 Posted by Night4345 (6866 posts) - - Show Bio
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#22 Posted by dondave (39681 posts) - - Show Bio
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#23 Edited by Frozen (19271 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave: @night4345: Whether it was or wasn't the speed force; Geoff Johns wrote both instances of Jay and Superman.

He wrote Jay being roughly on par (maybe faster) than New Earth Superman.

He also wrote KC Superman easily taking Hercules' punch whereas Superman could not and he also wrote KC Superman completely blind-siding Jay whereas normal Superman could not.

#24 Posted by DarkRaiden (9571 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor solos as he can literally cancel his enchantment.

Either way, Thor and Hulk would demolish him though.

#25 Edited by Night4345 (6866 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor solos as he can literally cancel his enchantment.

Either way, Thor and Hulk would demolish him though.

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#26 Posted by DarkRaiden (9571 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden said:

Thor solos as he can literally cancel his enchantment.

Either way, Thor and Hulk would demolish him though.

No trolling at all. CM just isn't on their level to take 2 of them.

#27 Edited by Frozen (19271 posts) - - Show Bio

@darkraiden: KC Captain Marvel's speed and perhaps strength was on par with KC Superman. KC Superman's strength and speed >>>> Normal Pre-Flashpoint Superman.

#28 Posted by green_skaar (5730 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

@darkraiden: KC Captain Marvel's speed and perhaps strength was on par with KC Superman. KC Superman's strength and speed >>>> Normal Pre-Flashpoint Superman.

Going to need a little more than a "perhaps" statement to pick someone over two folks with 40+ years of high end feats.

#29 Edited by Frozen (19271 posts) - - Show Bio
#30 Edited by Frozen (19271 posts) - - Show Bio

@green_skaar: Quality > quantity.

KC Captain Marvel speed-blitzed KC Superman.

KC Superman is much faster than Jay Garrick:

If you read DC 1st Superman/Flash. Normal Superman is only a match for Jay, KC Superman is much faster than either of them.

As for normal Superman only being as fast as Jay, it's shown they're rather evenly matched in speed:

The person who wrote KC Superman easily zooming past Jay and normal Superman failing to do so is the same writer --- Geoff Johns.

And again, Johns wrote this scene. KC Superman also took a punch from Golden Fleece Hercules without flinching whereas normal Superman got smacked back:

KC Captain Marvel succeeded in punching Superman off his feet considering nobody else could:

#31 Edited by green_skaar (5730 posts) - - Show Bio
@frozen said:

@green_skaar: What do you mean 40 years? Pre-Crisis? Pre-Crisis Captain Marvel could move entire stars.


I'm talking about Thor and Hulk having 40 years of high end feats. A handful of scans I've seen from KC CM isn't going to cut it.

#32 Edited by Frozen (19271 posts) - - Show Bio

@green_skaar: I've given you the scans. KC Superman, in his limited showings was shown to be superior to Normal Superman in every way, in fact, there's a comic which shows him being Superman from the future but he had to separate the timeline (basically, same guy).

And...KC Captain Marvel speed-blitzed KC Superman (KC Superman speed >>> Jay Garrick = Normal Superman). He knocked KC Superman off his feet. KC Superman, took a punch from Hercules with his Golden Fleece and casually shrugged it off like it was nothing, whereas normal Superman got smashed.

The writer confirmed the obvious, they were of similar level.

This is suffice. Quality over quantity. KC Captain Marvel was more than a match for a more powerful version of Superman, the writer then confirmed they are of similar level.

Normal Captain Marvel is around Superman's level, KC Captain Marvel was written to be more powerful.

#33 Posted by green_skaar (5730 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

@green_skaar: I've given you the scans. KC Superman, in his limited showings was shown to be superior to Normal Superman in every way, in fact, there's a comic which shows him being Superman from the future but he had to separate the timeline (basically, same guy).

And...KC Captain Marvel speed-blitzed KC Superman (KC Superman >>> Jay Garrick = Normal Superman). He knocked KC Superman off his feet. KC Superman, also took a punch from Hercules with his Golden Fleece and casually shrugged it off like it was nothing, whereas normal Superman got smashed.

The writer confirmed the obvious, they were of a similar level.

This is suffice. Quality over quantity. KC Captain Marvel was more than a match for a more powerful version of Superman, the writer then confirmed they are of similar level.

So basically a bunch of ABC logic about a character with very limited showings is enough to put over two established power houses, hmmm, again not buying it but you welcome to.

#34 Edited by Frozen (19271 posts) - - Show Bio

@green_skaar: It's not ABC logic. Quality over quantity as I maintain.

That's how characters get established. If one character beats the character with feats or matches them, that's how that character gets established. Doomsday didn't bench a planet before he gave Superman the fight of his life in 1992, did he?

Feats showed KC Captain Marvel to be similar to KC Superman, KC Superman was superior to normal Superman.

The writer confirms it via Geoff Johns writing two instances of KC Superman being stronger, more durable and faster than normal Superman.

Mark Waid stating they're of a similar level.

#35 Posted by MonsterStomp (23507 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor and Hulk got this.

#36 Edited by Frozen (19271 posts) - - Show Bio

Thor and Hulk got this.

KC Captain Marvel is far above Normal Superman. You sure?

#37 Posted by MonsterStomp (23507 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

@monsterstomp said:

Thor and Hulk got this.

KC Captain Marvel is far above Normal Superman. You sure?

Oh I'm sure. KC Marvel has but one impressive showing, almost owning Supes. The fight really wasn't long enough to grant Billy impressive speed, reflexes or even durability for that matter. CM merely spammed lightning bolts until Supes shut him up.

#38 Edited by Frozen (19271 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp said:

@frozen said:

@monsterstomp said:

Thor and Hulk got this.

KC Captain Marvel is far above Normal Superman. You sure?

Oh I'm sure. KC Marvel has but one impressive showing, almost owning Supes. The fight really wasn't long enough to grant Billy impressive speed, reflexes or even durability for that matter. CM merely spammed lightning bolts until Supes shut him up.

KC Captain Marvel speed-blitzed KC Superman while KC Superman travelled at his top speeds (showing he had to have similar perception and speed). Whereas KC Superman blind-sided Jay Garrick with his speed, Geoff Johns also wrote another comic where normal Superman could barely match Jay.

He speed-blitzed KC Superman, reached the bomb quicker, knocked him off his feet (considering Hercules with his Golden Fleece couldn't do that, etc).

Then, Mark Waid stated they were nearly equal. All in all, I believe they were written to be near equals in that fight.

#39 Posted by Immortal777 (8024 posts) - - Show Bio

Team

#40 Posted by Frozen (19271 posts) - - Show Bio

Team

How?

He was equal to KC Superman. KC Superman is clearly more powerful than Normal Superman.

#41 Posted by MonsterStomp (23507 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

@monsterstomp said:

@frozen said:

@monsterstomp said:

Thor and Hulk got this.

KC Captain Marvel is far above Normal Superman. You sure?

Oh I'm sure. KC Marvel has but one impressive showing, almost owning Supes. The fight really wasn't long enough to grant Billy impressive speed, reflexes or even durability for that matter. CM merely spammed lightning bolts until Supes shut him up.

KC Captain Marvel speed-blitzed KC Superman while KC Superman travelled at his top speeds (showing he had to have similar perception and speed). Whereas KC Superman blind-sided Jay Garrick with his speed, Geoff Johns also wrote another comic where normal Superman could barely match Jay.

He speed-blitzed KC Superman, reached the bomb quicker, knocked him off his feet (considering Hercules with his Golden Fleece couldn't do that, etc). Then, Mark Waid stated they were nearly equal.

He didn't blitz Superman. He caught him off guard. For it to be a blitz, Superman had to be weary that he was fighting Billy.

Hard to gauge the bomb feat, how fast was Supes travelling? Its unquantifiable speed. He could have travelled at Mach 5 to catch him and we all know Thor can do the same.

I don't care what Mark Waid said. Equal how? All aspects of physicality? Or just strength? Its a pretty broad statement.

#42 Edited by Frozen (19271 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp said:

@frozen said:

@monsterstomp said:

@frozen said:

@monsterstomp said:

Thor and Hulk got this.

KC Captain Marvel is far above Normal Superman. You sure?

Oh I'm sure. KC Marvel has but one impressive showing, almost owning Supes. The fight really wasn't long enough to grant Billy impressive speed, reflexes or even durability for that matter. CM merely spammed lightning bolts until Supes shut him up.

KC Captain Marvel speed-blitzed KC Superman while KC Superman travelled at his top speeds (showing he had to have similar perception and speed). Whereas KC Superman blind-sided Jay Garrick with his speed, Geoff Johns also wrote another comic where normal Superman could barely match Jay.

He speed-blitzed KC Superman, reached the bomb quicker, knocked him off his feet (considering Hercules with his Golden Fleece couldn't do that, etc). Then, Mark Waid stated they were nearly equal.

He didn't blitz Superman. He caught him off guard. For it to be a blitz, Superman had to be weary that he was fighting Billy.

Hard to gauge the bomb feat, how fast was Supes travelling? Its unquantifiable speed. He could have travelled at Mach 5 to catch him and we all know Thor can do the same.

I don't care what Mark Waid said. Equal how? All aspects of physicality? Or just strength? Its a pretty broad statement.

Superman's perceptions are faster. To intercept Superman, he must have blitzed him. If Superman was much faster than Billy, Billy would have never been able to even tag him, yet he did while Superman travelled at his fastest speeds.

Why would it be Mach 5? Alex Ross who wrote that scene, also wrote Justice which showed Captain Marvel to be faster than Superman, now Justice isn't canon, but it shows you the writer's intentions. Nothing implied KC Superman waited on the bomb.

You should. He wrote the comic. Equal in what I showed, strength + speed. And I posted the statement, he says KC Captain Marvel could stand up to KC Superman physically:

Every single showing of KC Superman in main canon shows him >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> New Earth Superman.

For KC Captain Marvel to be of comparable level, blitz Superman and punch him off his feet and the narration to reinforce Marvel as the soldier that can match his every move + writer confirmation is good enough.

Compare this:

With:

And Billy intercepting him is impressive considering:

^ Geoff Johns wrote that above scan.

Do you know what Geoff Johns also wrote with normal Superman? Jay saying a race between him and Superman is even (clearly not the case for KC Superman, who Billy intercepted/blitzed):

Johns not only wrote the KC Superman speed scan but also the below:

#43 Edited by MonsterStomp (23507 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen:

- No. A blitz is when someone moves faster than the opponent can react. Superman wasn't expecting the sucker punch, therefore he didn't attempt to react. Therefore, Billy didn't blitz him, he merely cheap shotted.

- Who cares what Alex Ross wrote? Fact is, we don't know how fast they were moving.

- How accurate is a writers word anyway? We know Justin Jordan's statements about Luther Strode contradicted more than twice.

#44 Edited by Frozen (19271 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp:

  • It's not a punch...it's a blitz because he flew into him. Put it this way: Superman was flying at his fastest speeds possible, all of his perceptions would have been much faster

If Billy was much slower, he never would have tagged or perceived him. He moved so fast in flight that Jay could not even perceive him, and Jay can perceive in Nanoseconds and as he said, stretch time:

Billy perceived and casually tagged a Superman that was not holding back his speed, + this is KC Superman who's speed is far above normal Superman (see my Garrick comparison). This is a feat by any standard.

  • Fast enough for Billy to tag him first, there's no reason by the time KC Superman moved upwards, he would be holding back. Have to factor in writer intention
  • Come on....the comic asserted them as equals, so did the narration, and the fact that Captain Marvel blitzed + knocked the guy off his feet. Clearly they were of a similar level. KC Captain Marvel had one appearance and Waid wrote that appearance. KC Captain Marvel is clearly written to be more powerful version
#45 Posted by MonsterStomp (23507 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: You're debating with unquantifiable speeds here. There's nothing to suggest KC Superman was flying at light speeds and there is nothing suggesting Captain Marvel reacted at light speed to punch him. Stop with the wank.

#46 Edited by Frozen (19271 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp said:

@frozen: You're debating with unquantifiable speeds here. There's nothing to suggest KC Superman was flying at light speeds and there is nothing suggesting Captain Marvel reacted at light speed to punch him. Stop with the wank.

This is ridiculous.

I've actually not only pulled a writer statement (the guy who wrote the freaking coming, who said they're equal), but also read the narration boxes which described Marvel as a being that could go toe-to-toe with Superman. I've then contrasted KC Superman's speed showings but then contrasted it with Marvel, to which KC Superman zoomed to the Gulag battle. It's not just statement, the actual feats in the book are there - writer's statement just confirms it.

Normal Captain Marvel can usually go toe-to-toe with Normal Superman. KC Captain Marvel was written to be more powerful, everything indicated to that.

#47 Posted by MonsterStomp (23507 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen: Like I said, writers statements are full proof. Marvel going toe-to-toe with Superman is a given, but there's nothing in that short fight scene that grants Marvel quantifiable speed/durability.

#48 Posted by Immortal777 (8024 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

@immortal777 said:

Team

How?

He was equal to KC Superman. KC Superman is clearly more powerful than Normal Superman.

KC Marvel did nothing to show he was equal to KC Superman he's only feat was getting killed by a bomb.

#49 Edited by Frozen (19271 posts) - - Show Bio

@immortal777 said:

@frozen said:

@immortal777 said:

Team

How?

He was equal to KC Superman. KC Superman is clearly more powerful than Normal Superman.

KC Marvel did nothing to show he was equal to KC Superman he's only feat was getting killed by a bomb.

Wrong. Billy got killed by the bomb.

He knocked KC Superman off his feet with a punch (Hercules couldn't do that, who easily beat away normal Superman) and blitzed KC Superman, the WRITER of the comic confirmed they're equals.

The evidence actually points to them being near level.

KC Superman = KC Captain Marvel >>>>>>>>>>>>> Normal Superman.

Check my scans I posted. It's clear how he was written.

When KC Superman took a punch from a powerhouse like Hercules with his Golden Fleece, he did not budge. When KC Captain Marvel punched him, Superman was knocked off his feet.

When KC Superman moved alongside Jay, he blindsided him by Jay's own admission he was faster (Johns also wrote normal Superman being just as fast as Jay). When KC Captain Marvel moved, he intercepted him.

The evidence puts him at KC Superman level.

#50 Edited by Frozen (19271 posts) - - Show Bio

@monsterstomp said:

@frozen: Like I said, writers statements are full proof. Marvel going toe-to-toe with Superman is a given, but there's nothing in that short fight scene that grants Marvel quantifiable speed/durability.

Again, not true. Writer statement is full proof because the guy appearance once, the question about that fight was asked, then he said they're equals.

KC Superman travelled at his full speeds to the Gulag and Marvel blitzed him, KC Superman when he flew away from Jay blindsided him. If we take into account evidence, writer's statements and appearances of KC Superman, KC Captain Marvel is his equal.