Karate Kid vs. Spider-Man or Iron Fist

Aight, lets start off by saying, I posted in this forum to make sure I get every ones attention, I understand the concept of this character is highly loved, and I am not knocking the presence of him or his place in the DC universe, however, it has come to my attention that the fundamental flaw with this character and many peoples arguments is that he is fleshed out to be nothing but HUMAN with an amazing repertoire of martial knowledge and talent accompanied by an unexplained ability to discern the weakest point in any object or being. Here is where we have the problem, many of you claim he can beat many more powerful characters than he, I got fed up with just reading and had to post after I read some old ass battle thread about karate kid vs street levelers, and spiderman and ironfist were thrown in, I guarantee, without any doubt in my mind or any man of science who likes to dabble in fantasy would concede that Karate Kid, for all his skill, can beat either of those two combatants. 1) Spider-Man is by definition a (SUPER-HUMAN-MUTATE), his DNA and thus the function of his body is no longer human, making him faster and stronger than a human to the nth degree, accompanied by an almost mystical ability of clairvoyance called the spider sense, making him aware of an attack the moment the thought is processed in the mind of the attacker. 2) Iron Fist is a master of many of earths martial arts and all of Kun Lun's, one thing about all human martial arts is they are all fundamentally the same, the one martial art Iron Fist hasn't been fully depicted performing is the break-dance-esque style coperia. That being said Iron Fist masters not only his own chi as I am sure Karate Kid does as well, but the chi of Shao Lao the Undying, infusing him with, wait for it, (MYSTICAL ENERGY) accompanied with The Book of The Iron Fist he is now able to use that energy for many other uses much like a jedi*. That is the kicker that makes Iron Fist a breed apart from every other martial artist, his powers are not limited, only undiscovered or are not yet mastered. The point being is that when using his chi, Iron Fist is for lack of a better word a (MYSTICAL-SUPER-HUMAN).

Agreed.

Not a Battle. Some useful points though. Personally I find KK a hax character TBH.

Karate Kid could beat both Spiderman and Ironfist with one arm and one leg both tied together.

@OneAb0veAll said:

Karate Kid could beat both Spiderman and Ironfist with one arm and one leg both tied together.

lol if written by Loeb yes.

im glad i know thats a joke

@XImpossibruX:I thought karate-kid beat superman

Karate Kid FTW

@dondave: as far as i can tell every time kk got one over on a kryptonian it was only a sparring match or they were holding back, but ask your self, if he were to ever actually beat super-man, it would mean one of two things, 1) he used kryptonite, or 2) he is actually a super human, and the dc writers are A) too damn stupid to rewrite the characters bio in a onshot or a mini, or B) they purposefully want ignorant-tate people, (yes i made that word up, no i am not appologising, yes it was the most appropriate thing to say)

@laflux said:

Not a Battle. Some useful points though. Personally I find KK a hax character TBH.

This.

@Onemoreposter:

explain why, since your joke wasnt as humorous as oneaboveall"s

Karate Kid, Call me when when ironfist and spiderman judo chop mountains.

@Death Certificate: this im assuming is because of his unexplained ability to find the weakest point in any object or being, right? lets break it down, karate kid is a normal human being, with above normal martial knowledge, human bones have a break resistance to force and impact, breaking someones wrist requires roughly 5 pounds of force when turned inward, now a mountain im sure as a natural structure of that size and density requires at least what? is 10,000 x that adequate? sure we'll make it as weak as 10,000 times that, where did he find all that strength to apply the minimalis amount of energy to the weakest point in the mountain, i can gurauntee the weakest point in the mountain wasnt 1,800 pounds of force, which if my memory serves correctly was fight sciences highest recorded kick, a kick mind you is just the much stronger than a judo chop, and a judo chop was designed to attack the nerves in the neck for quick KO, the flaw with Karate Kid isnt in his skill, its in his power, his only power is to discern weakness without the ability to properly attack anything beyond human, its cool and all, but ultimately useless in the DC verse where everyone is ultra, mega, super, something, everyone else has some made up reason why they can do what they can do, but he does not.

@wuji644:

@Death Certificate: oh and this is also assuming the the structure of the mountain functions the same way as the human body which it doesn't, kinetic force is different from explosive force. iron fists ability was only kinetic force, but has been expanded so that he can wield explosive force as well, we've seen it in the train incident and the helicarrier, but iron fist has an explanation for that, its his using of the dragons chi...

@XImpossibruX said:

@OneAb0veAll said:

Karate Kid could beat both Spiderman and Ironfist with one arm and one leg both tied together.

lol if written by Loeb yes.

Yup and Spiderman wins if its written by the producers of Spiderman. Yes.

@wuji644: Your not gonna get much of fully detailed explation of how the karate kid does his stuff, other than what's on the comic

Example

@wuji644 said:

@Death Certificate: oh and this is also assuming the the structure of the mountain functions the same way as the human body which it doesn't, kinetic force is different from explosive force. iron fists ability was only kinetic force, but has been expanded so that he can wield explosive force as well, we've seen it in the train incident and the helicarrier, but iron fist has an explanation for that, its his using of the dragons chi...

What's your point here? Is it that one incredible outlandish comic book character has a slightly more coherent story for his powers than another incredible outlandish comic book character? Good point bro.

@wuji644 said:

@Onemoreposter:

explain why, since your joke wasnt as humorous as oneaboveall"s

Wasn't a joke. Fact of the matter is that Karate Kid has better feats than the both of them.

Karate Kid in essence is really no different than Iron Fist. Iron Fist is basically a normal dude who uses Chi. Karate Kid is a normal dude who uses bullshit future Kungfu. We don't know what kind of future Kungfu he uses, we just know that he uses it.

He doesn't need to be a superhuman, physically, when he can detect the weak spots of anything from looking at it and directly attack those points. It's like Batman dodging Superman; it should never really happen, but it does. One could argue it happens because Batman is better trained. There isn't anyone better trained than Karate Kid.

Karate kid wins

Ugh,,I can't stand KK...if he fought Squirrelgirl the universe would implode from critical levels of PIS!!

I've seen it before, it doesn't explain how he is able to do it. For the sake of comic book writing the characters background needs to be fixed, otherwise, we can all speculate based on one shots like this with no definitive conclusion. I don't need to pull up pictures of Iron Fist doing the same thing or Spider-man never being hit by something like it or surviving it.

I'm well aware there isn't an outlandish explanation for why the character can do what he can do, theres no explanation at all, i would have found it already and never made the post.

Ok, kung fu: skill over time. Both Iron Fist and Karate Kid have... kung fu... kung fu period, is something you get better at, not that you never had it before or couldnt do it.

Martial Arts, I said it in the beginning when I was explaining Iron Fist's skills, not powers, but skills, is that all martial arts use the same fundamentals, and therefore it doesn't matter if you know 1 or 100, your body still functions the same way.

Weak Points, does not mean that the weakest point in any character or object can only resist 1,800 pounds of force or less, just because the character is outlandish doesn't mean everything else around him is as well.

Human, him being human means and will always mean that he can only be so fast and only so strong, and deliver only so much force. The character is in contradiction of being just a normal human.

Given that there's a lot moments in plenty of your guy's memory that you read a comic of him and he did some awesome feat, I understand how you feel, its why we read comics, but why we continue reading a comic is because just for a second, the reasoning behind it is believable, there's that thought of "what if". That being said everything I've said, are facts, kung fu, is always going to be defined as is, martial arts are always going to be defined as is, structural weak points are always going to be defined as is, human is always going to be defined as is. Unless the character is a secret relative of the scarlet witch or the sentry and doesn't know he alters reality, let that story be told already so the character can be defined as class 100 and get over these dumb battles with current or historic stats, with weapons or without.

Obviously I'm limited to 5 posts per username per day at this level so either respond with something adequate and ill reply today, otherwise it will have to be ignored.

@wuji644friend said:

I've seen it before, it doesn't explain how he is able to do it. For the sake of comic book writing the characters background needs to be fixed, otherwise, we can all speculate based on one shots like this with no definitive conclusion. I don't need to pull up pictures of Iron Fist doing the same thing or Spider-man never being hit by something like it or surviving it.

I'm well aware there isn't an outlandish explanation for why the character can do what he can do, theres no explanation at all, i would have found it already and never made the post.

Ok, kung fu: skill over time. Both Iron Fist and Karate Kid have... kung fu... kung fu period, is something you get better at, not that you never had it before or couldnt do it.

Martial Arts, I said it in the beginning when I was explaining Iron Fist's skills, not powers, but skills, is that all martial arts use the same fundamentals, and therefore it doesn't matter if you know 1 or 100, your body still functions the same way.

Weak Points, does not mean that the weakest point in any character or object can only resist 1,800 pounds of force or less, just because the character is outlandish doesn't mean everything else around him is as well.

Human, him being human means and will always mean that he can only be so fast and only so strong, and deliver only so much force. The character is in contradiction of being just a normal human.

Given that there's a lot moments in plenty of your guy's memory that you read a comic of him and he did some awesome feat, I understand how you feel, its why we read comics, but why we continue reading a comic is because just for a second, the reasoning behind it is believable, there's that thought of "what if". That being said everything I've said, are facts, kung fu, is always going to be defined as is, martial arts are always going to be defined as is, structural weak points are always going to be defined as is, human is always going to be defined as is. Unless the character is a secret relative of the scarlet witch or the sentry and doesn't know he alters reality, let that story be told already so the character can be defined as class 100 and get over these dumb battles with current or historic stats, with weapons or without.

Obviously I'm limited to 5 posts per username per day at this level so either respond with something adequate and ill reply today, otherwise it will have to be ignored.

Or you could just acknowledge that he's a master of every single technique, of every single martial art to every exist, in the future. And his future kungfu allows him to do what he does.

I mean...this is pretty much the only logical, and accepted, answer you're going to get. There's really no need to put as much thought into it as you are. Either way, Karate Kid is a fun, and pretty awesome character; why does it matter how he does what he does? He does it. And he does it consistently.

There's no reason for him to be some sort of passive reality warper like Sentry/Plutonian. Whatever he learned in the 30th Century, lets him to do it. That should be enough.

these look good on paper but i have to say karate kid in a stomp for both due to the fact neither sidey or danny have never done anything to suggest they can match him we seen val do decent against superman(for a human without any batman gadgets just fist and feet) while spidey struggles aganst MA practitioners and danny while cooler than val still failed to defeat BP while he was ampd for the sake of beating him and while spidey put a beating on kingpin he is also not in val's league

@ColdShot: first, i have already said why KK has ever done descent against any kryptonian, its appreciated by every thread author, that previous statements be reviewed and that comments and responses are written with forehand knowledge.

alright, i cant say i know kk's consistancy but IF has done 2 similar feats that i know of one is where he punched a mag-lev train loaded with what was stated in the comic it self, enough explosives comparable to hiroshima... accompanied by a gargantuan explosion and walked away unscathed... the other is when he and Luke Cage did a fast ball special, and cracked the shield helicarrier, im not gonna look for the scan, im sure you've already seen it or can google it, but bluntly put, the HC went down from his one punch. I'm already aware of the similarity between IF and KK, thats not what bothers me, or who is cooler, and for spiderman, almost every time he is beat, it is because he failed to do something, he didnt acount for something, or he made a mistake or was distracted, same thing for iron fist, i've seen alot of battles on here, and i see these battles about blood lusted, has anyone seen KK lose it, or spider-man, or iron fist, i can tell you right now, if there was such a thing as a blood lusted spidey, he is nigh untouchable, even at close range, and ive already explained why when it comes to fighting a living being, as i said but not so plainly before, the character makes no sense, 30th century martial arts are going to be the same as 9th century martial arts, the fundamentals are always going to be the same, unless, part of being a martial artist in the 30th century maybe you can psionically improve ones self, i didnt want to say it, i was hoping someone would give me something more concrete than "bullshit future kung-fu" but i have to admit the character is hax, and the majority of his feats are PIS WIS CIS, i understand alot of you may hate hearing that, but i've offered up continual evidence, as to why, even in a comic world, he should not be able to do what he does, he might as well be neo from the matrix anthology, that being said, thank you all for your time.

I HOPE YOU CAN SEE THE LOGIC OF NEVER MATCHING KARATE KID UP AGAINST ANYONE, PURELY ON THE BASIS THAT HE IS AN UNDEFINED CHARACTER.

@Bane_of_sith said:

Ugh,,I can't stand KK...if he fought Squirrelgirl the universe would implode from critical levels of PIS!!

our assuming i didn't read because i ignored what you said now kk is consistent and your using PIS as an excuse to defend spidey but you know how many times he had PIS wins? do i even have to bring up firelord or hulk? and pete is fast but the fact still remains that he is pretty overrated in his own right and nigh untouchable is overboard there will still be many people who can touch him i know about the train thing but kk is dc's best period at MA call it what you want and if the explosives matched hiroshima that means BP's armor is stronger than the nuke dropped on hiroshima and i think thats bs becuase an ampd ironfist hit bp and there was no real damage danny also lost to him got owned by fat cobra stalmated shang chi and lost to shadowland dd i dont rember any of those mentioned as marvels top i understand kk is unpopular and people claim all his feats to be PIS but he is the best at what he dose in dc which is why he can do this spiderman and dan are good just outclassed is all

@wuji644: Actually you haven't offered up evidence as to why he shouldn't be ablt to do what he does. You tried to say it was impossible by talking about force; the problem is that weak spots CAN greatly change the force required if you understand the physics of where to hit, what angle, how hard, how long, etc. Take a diamond for example. Diamonds are among the hardest materials found in nature. A perfect diamond should be incredibly hard to break. However, there is no such thing as a truly perfect diamond, there will always be a weak spot even if it's seemingly undetectable. The weak spot on a diamond is very easy to abuse; and it's possible to essentially make the diamond shatter by accident if it's a poor quality diamond. Karate Kid is able to understand those things on a subconscious level, as such he is able to simulate super-powered hits without doing harm to himself in the same way RL martia artists can break cinderblocks with their heads without injurying themselves.

@ColdShot:

negative ghostrider, im not even trying to say hes unpopular, and i honestly don't rely on using PIS as an excuse as you can see i've gone into detail here and was looking for concrete evidence to be provided by someone, not scans that ive already seen that dont explain the how, or his half complete background explaining why he can destroy a block of ice around a building, i mean, do you hoestly believe KK could take Superman? admitting that you ignored what i said isn't helping your argument, you want me to listen to you for what reason now, ive backed up every claim ive said, for instance, ironfist has done away with BPs armor, proving evidence that theres a varience in power each time theyve fought, and i know for a fact i said, "comparable to hiroshima" was in the comic it self, so dont think that im exaggerating cause i quoted a line from a book. and listen up about spiderman, cause this is the most consistent thing about spidey, his spider sense, when an inanimate object begins to have trajectory towards him he is aware of it, he may not know what direction all the time but he is at least aware of it, when a character even of elevated speed levels decides they are going to hit spidey, his reaction happens so fast that it is either clairvoyant which has been repeatedly talked about by writers, characters, guilds, threads, and other creators for a very long time, or psychic if you want, its as if the electrical and chemical impulses of his reaction begin at the exact same time as the threatening creature/character, on top of that, he is a super human, matched up against any regular human, will never be a fair match, his body is no longer human, and operates faster... yes spider man can be hit, by anyone with tk, or faster than bullet projectiles, or a speadster, or very omnipotant beings like galactus for instance, how many characters do you know who have a tactical control of their tk or speedsters compared to both the entire marvel and dc universe, you can see why spider-man is top tier and KK is a B-movie, i can proudly admit, spidey against hulk or fire lord is overboard for beating them, i just dont think hes strong enough, but i know hulk could never hit spiderman, you could argue that spider man tired the hulk out after so many swing and a misses, and using the environment to his advantage, but spider man in a desert with hulk is pretty self explanatory, you're forgetting mitigating circumstances, look, i have to tell you, him being an average human, its just not gonna happen, even at Olympic level, its not fast enough to beat spider man, ill even use, that word thats thrown around here so much, blood lusted, spider man is super humanly strong and fast, and a normal human is unable to break his webs, his strength is classed at 15 to 20 tons, a ton is 2000 pounds, in fight science the highest recorded punch from a professional boxer was 1000 bounds psi, mike tyson a few weight classes above this guy had 1700, the fastest recorded punch was from a wushu master at 40 fps, 4 times faster than a snake striking, the heaviest dead lift is 1000 pounds, half a ton, if the most powerful punch is more weight than the heaviest lift and we agree that spider-man is at his lowest stated class, a 15 ton-er, but here ill make it easier for karate kid, i wont use mike tysons ratio, i'll just use the professional boxer's from fight science at 1000, and don't tell me, spider-man cant punch with the same ratio of the boxer cause he's untrained, with the current spidey he is trained, and has his own spider-fu, the strongest punch from spider man would be 30,000 pounds of impact force psi, now to his speed, spider-man has been said to have reflexes 40x faster than a human being, which if i bring his punching speed down to a fourth of that, it would be 400 fps, if spiderman can catch a bullet, its obviously faster but i'm helping karate kid out here, which makes spidermans punch ten times faster than the fastest punching human in fight science. this argument is done. what was not intended to be a battle, has in fact become a battle, you wanted to say KK stomps Spider-man, here's is why that will never happen.

@rpottage:

look man, if you read my post right before this one, it will stop the who is better than who argument between Spider-man and KK, and as for your argument, im at the point where i just dont care anymore if noones providing numbers, i did the research, i did the math, and ive been patient and respectful. If none of you can see that, then the only other way I could possibly prove to any of you is if I were to get Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, and Jim Shooter on this thread. And those guys are so great that wouldn't happen.

@wuji644:

first off your belittleing kk's feats while pushing spideys and galactus was never omnipotent thor and ironman are nothing you mentioned they could hit spidey deathstroke cuaght flash who is way faster then spidey if you choose to listen is upto you i ignored it becuase it seemed like your trying to use real life logic to explain a comic character which you fail to see dose not follow your logic which is peters become above humans so he should beat kk well thats not the case i never called petie untrained now kk dose things humans cant and he did decent aganst superman do to his mental blocks i never said he can take him your putting words in my mouth you have decent logic but your demanding kk should be a regular human which would make him boring the whole thing is hes from the 31 centurey since we no nothing about it or what he has been through we cant say but he is dc's best at MA and if your using consistency kk is consistent in his feats so your only real argument is he is human and peters not

Karate Kid

@wuji644 said:

@ColdShot:

negative ghostrider, im not even trying to say hes unpopular, and i honestly don't rely on using PIS as an excuse as you can see i've gone into detail here and was looking for concrete evidence to be provided by someone, not scans that ive already seen that dont explain the how, or his half complete background explaining why he can destroy a block of ice around a building, i mean, do you hoestly believe KK could take Superman? admitting that you ignored what i said isn't helping your argument, you want me to listen to you for what reason now, ive backed up every claim ive said, for instance, ironfist has done away with BPs armor, proving evidence that theres a varience in power each time theyve fought, and i know for a fact i said, "comparable to hiroshima" was in the comic it self, so dont think that im exaggerating cause i quoted a line from a book. and listen up about spiderman, cause this is the most consistent thing about spidey, his spider sense, when an inanimate object begins to have trajectory towards him he is aware of it, he may not know what direction all the time but he is at least aware of it, when a character even of elevated speed levels decides they are going to hit spidey, his reaction happens so fast that it is either clairvoyant which has been repeatedly talked about by writers, characters, guilds, threads, and other creators for a very long time, or psychic if you want, its as if the electrical and chemical impulses of his reaction begin at the exact same time as the threatening creature/character, on top of that, he is a super human, matched up against any regular human, will never be a fair match, his body is no longer human, and operates faster... yes spider man can be hit, by anyone with tk, or faster than bullet projectiles, or a speadster, or very omnipotant beings like galactus for instance, how many characters do you know who have a tactical control of their tk or speedsters compared to both the entire marvel and dc universe, you can see why spider-man is top tier and KK is a B-movie, i can proudly admit, spidey against hulk or fire lord is overboard for beating them, i just dont think hes strong enough, but i know hulk could never hit spiderman, you could argue that spider man tired the hulk out after so many swing and a misses, and using the environment to his advantage, but spider man in a desert with hulk is pretty self explanatory, you're forgetting mitigating circumstances, look, i have to tell you, him being an average human, its just not gonna happen, even at Olympic level, its not fast enough to beat spider man, ill even use, that word thats thrown around here so much, blood lusted, spider man is super humanly strong and fast, and a normal human is unable to break his webs, his strength is classed at 15 to 20 tons, a ton is 2000 pounds, in fight science the highest recorded punch from a professional boxer was 1000 bounds psi, mike tyson a few weight classes above this guy had 1700, the fastest recorded punch was from a wushu master at 40 fps, 4 times faster than a snake striking, the heaviest dead lift is 1000 pounds, half a ton, if the most powerful punch is more weight than the heaviest lift and we agree that spider-man is at his lowest stated class, a 15 ton-er, but here ill make it easier for karate kid, i wont use mike tysons ratio, i'll just use the professional boxer's from fight science at 1000, and don't tell me, spider-man cant punch with the same ratio of the boxer cause he's untrained, with the current spidey he is trained, and has his own spider-fu, the strongest punch from spider man would be 30,000 pounds of impact force psi, now to his speed, spider-man has been said to have reflexes 40x faster than a human being, which if i bring his punching speed down to a fourth of that, it would be 400 fps, if spiderman can catch a bullet, its obviously faster but i'm helping karate kid out here, which makes spidermans punch ten times faster than the fastest punching human in fight science. this argument is done. what was not intended to be a battle, has in fact become a battle, you wanted to say KK stomps Spider-man, here's is why that will never happen.

Jesus, try using the enter key every now and then.

Spiderman is top tier, in popularity. In actual terms of POWER, he isn't. Galactus isn't "very" omnipotent. Why you're trying to take into account real life physics to define Karate Kid, is beyond me. You're not going to get anywhere by attempting to lowball him this way.

Just accept it I guess, You can go on and on about how it's PIS. Except Karate Kid does this kind of shit in EVERY appearance, are some of them ridiculous? Sure, but it continues to happen. Considering we know pretty much NOTHING about what he has learned in the 30th Century, we can easily assume whatever training he received, and whatever martial arts he learned, are capable of pushing his strength and opertional speeds to superhuman levels. Coupled with his ability to detect any weak points in ANYTHING, this allows him to do what he does.

Why you're wanking Spiderman...who knows. But the chances of him beating Karate Kid are pretty slim. Comparing the people with martial arts knowledge/experience that Spiderman has fought to Karate Kid, is like comparing the flame of a candle, to the Sun. If we knew absolutely nothing about how the sun works, just accept that it does what it does, just...because.

We don't need a logical explanation for every characters abilities.

Edit: Oh, and don't try to claim everything Karate Kid does is PIS, then use Iron Fists nuke-filled train punch as evidence to how powerful he is.

@wuji644 said:

@rpottage:

look man, if you read my post right before this one, it will stop the who is better than who argument between Spider-man and KK, and as for your argument, im at the point where i just dont care anymore if noones providing numbers, i did the research, i did the math, and ive been patient and respectful. If none of you can see that, then the only other way I could possibly prove to any of you is if I were to get Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, and Jim Shooter on this thread. And those guys are so great that wouldn't happen.

I don't care about the "who is better argument". Other than that you're just whinning right now. You claim you did the numbers, research, and math; but as I already pointed out the numbers you provided are flawed. You claim what the weakest spot of a mountain isn't; and that's it. You did NOT factor in microfractures, underground siesmic activity, direction of force; etc. That is not good enough. As I already explained, the weak spot of an object can exponentially change the force required to affect it.

@xeon1cs: did you actually take into account everything ive said, and every argument that has been brought up by everyone in this thread, I had to use that, as an example that KK and IF have performed similar feats, why are you mad at that?

@ColdShot: im not demanding he be human, its what he's stated as, if you want my honest opinion, and ive said it before, the character just makes the least amount of sense, im not over looking that its a comic book character, the problem is way too many people want to give the most amount love, credit, win chance etc. (for lack of a better word) to a character, who's abilities aren't cleary stated and thank you for at least seeing what i'm getting at here, and why i was pushing the numbers, if he's stated as just human, which he has been, and the word martial art is defined as is, he just doesn't make sense, and i can already see alot of people getting mad here, so i think the thread is done, theres no reason for anyone on here to get upset at what im saying, so thanks for staying civil have a good one

@wuji644:

i didn't get mad this was fun for me becuase you had actual point i was mearly pointing out flaws in it thanks for making my first battle thread argument decent

@bane_of_sith: agreed

@thekillerofgods: What was the purpose of you bumping a 2 year old thread my friend? Hell, Bane of Sith's last post was 3 months ago, so I highly doubt he will ever see your comment.

Welcome to comic vine. Don't bump old crusty threads, when the topic itself is silly.

If any mods are awake. Please Lock. @jedixman@saren@sc