I been looking for someone to put Touma up against. And why not a bender from the avatar universe.
Rules:
Morals on
Starting distance 50 meters.
Random Encounter
No Knowledge.
No Prep.
Battle takes place in empty street in republic city
Kamijou Touma vs Mako(legend of korra)
@deathhero61: I guess we assume that image breaker works on bending....
@pierpat: It would anyway. Kamijou can negate any non-physical attack coming at him or superpower. Whether it be supernatural or spiritual. Bending falls into either of those categories. Once kamijou attempted to block the shockwave caused by the pure physical blow of a superhuman in the light novels IIRC @homicidalmaniac told me something like before when we were debating cole macgrath vs railgun.
@deathhero61: Fine(i thought it was generally against unnatural, and bending is natural).
That said, i still see mako taking a slight majority.
He is really agile, he should manage to avoid that hand.
@pierpat: This is a fight. Remember that? Couldn't the fight go down in a similar way it did in Touma vs Styil?
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Or any of his other fights?
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Especially against vento.
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@deathhero61: Brah, i know touma's fight.
Check my bio, To aru no-s are up there.
I'm just saying that styles was not that serious against touma, and did not use any agility against him.
While we know that agility is the key to beat touma.
This means Touma can easily deflect any attack Mako dishes out on him, while coming closer, but I think Mako could take him in H2H combat, however, Touma should be able to take him
Touma's Imagine Breaker,Precog and pain tolerance can help him wins this.Touma did escape out of Accelerator's Black Wing.
Accelerator made a simple move. The black wings behind him both swung downwards. Except, that this time his target wasn’t the Level 0 teen that’s running towards him, but towards the empty white land in front of him.
The sound of an explosion rang out.
With the massive destructive power, large amounts of earth got swept up, and formed into a 15m high and 300m wide tsunami made of earth. The entire vista got covered by it, and it struck as if to swallow the tiny lad.
He should be dead with this attack.
Even if he was wearing military-use power armor, his body of flesh and blood would be crushed along with the synthetic materials of the body armor.
Even so.
Pacha!!* The Level 0 charged right into the soaring earth.
His body got pummeled by massive amounts of rocks, but none were fatal attacks.
“…”
Accelerator was shocked at first, but soon figured out his tactics from the situation.
From previous reports about Academy City’s #3, Railgun, who Accelerator had faced off against before, in the rumors associated with the Railgun, there was one saying that an unknown Level 0 existed that could match against the Railgun using only his right hand.
This raised many questions.
For example, even if a right hand that could negate any ability exists, how could the one using it match his opponent’s timing?
A railgun attack was over three times the speed of sound, and lightning strikes were even faster. Even with a method of defending himself, to be able to time it right was extremely difficult. Even missing the timing by only an instant would probably result in death. In that situation, how could the scenario "Every single attack is negated easily" happen?
From the situation now, Accelerator could make a rough estimate.
In other words...
Precognition.
For example, when the Railgun used her ability, she would give off weak magnetic fields and electromagnetic waves that would make the metal items around her resonate.
Because of the eventual large explosion, the Railgun herself probably wouldn’t notice these tiny vibrations like an earthquake’s precursor. ‘To see the invisible magnetic force, spread iron sand onto it to make it visible to the naked eye’, just like an elementary school experiment. So, because of these “An Involuntary Movements”, there would be hints to when the Railgun would attack.
Of course, that was not all.
That was not the only kind.
Even though her ability was more common compared to Accelerator’s ability, she was still the #3 esper of Academy City, and shouldn’t be blocked that easily.
There were probably other reasons as well.
For example, the lightning strike.
If it was only high voltage electricity flow, by extending his right hand the lightning would be attracted onto it, with the right hand acting like a lightning rod.
Also, the iron-sand sword.
Apart from the sword in her hand, the iron sand around her would also change shape due to the magnetic force. In other words, a ‘visible magnetic path’ would be formed that could be used to predict where the strike would end up. Depending on the situation, he could even negate the sword without coming in contact with it just by touching the iron sand around him.
Sometimes the path to victory would change.
Was it using the most powerful ability one possessed, or the aftermath from that ability?
According to different tactics used, the path to victory changed along with it.
What was most important wasn’t whether there was a chance to victory, but to never rely on only one form, and look at the problem from many different viewpoints. Above all, look for the best method to resolve the current situation. Even against the same kind of espers, the same kind of tactics might not be suited to be used. Even if it was just lightning strikes, depending on how it was used, different tactics may have to be taken.
Because of this, battle tactics were always changing.
By depending on the defense from the ability to negate any ability to avoid being killed instantly, to buy time and use it for maximum gain. By experiencing the impacts on one’s own body and using that data as the basis to find the best way to get out of the situation alive.
Just having brains wasn’t enough.
Just having the power wasn’t enough.
Only by combining the two it was possible to barely succeed.
In the situation where death was only a hair's-breadth away, having the courage to keep his body and thoughts moving probably helped a lot as well.
The Level 0 probably didn’t realize it himself.
How to use his ability in its fullest potential, using the aftermath as a basis, and then change tactics to fight according to the situation. He was probably just combining those with his reflex. As for the Railgun making everything made of metal vibrate around her, he probably didn’t take note of it explicitly but took it in using his peripheral vision, and processed it deep inside him. So, success was not guaranteed. On the other hand, if he actively tried to take note of these things it was more likely to fail.
Just taking Accelerator’s attack and surviving was exceptional in terms of battle ability. Even if anyone else had this power in their right hand, how many could get the same results?
Taking only the supernatural abilities into account, he definitely couldn’t be called ‘strong’.
Even if taken everything into account he might still only be at a ‘weak’ level.
But because that was so, that teenager knew the meaning of fighting with all his strength if he wanted to live
While the two exchanged blows between fist and wings, the Level 0 probably didn’t know why it had turned out this way either. Accelerator himself probably didn’t know what he wanted to say; it was just air passing through his lips, no one else should be able to understand him.
Instantly, both of them went silent.
They moved their gaze towards the small girl collapsed on the ground.
The black wings swelled up even more than before.
The pair of wings split into over a hundred, and attacked the Level 0 from all angles.
At the same time where the sound of explosions and shockwaves ran rampant, the ground started to tremble dully.
“(He should be dead now… it’s impossible for him not to be.)”
Accelerator thought.
It was impossible for that not to be the case.
Even so...
“Why…”
Accelerator let out a sound that was almost like a groan.
In the end it turned into a mighty roar.
“Why couldn’t a hero like you just die?! If you die, then everything can finally break apaaaaaaaaaaart!!!!!!!!!!!!”
He heard the reply.
Right in front of him, the teenager that clenched the blood-covered fist spoke:
“…Things like heroes are unnecessary.”
Touma stomps.
@pierpat: Imagine Breaker can work on Bending like how it always work on Espers abilities.Imagine Breaker maybe could not work on Earth Bending due to if a that type of Bender can throw a regular rock.Air,Fire,and Water Bending should all effected by Imagine Breaker.Mako may have better agility than Touma,but Touma have much better pain tolerance,reaction speed,and precognition give Touma the win.
@homicidalmaniac: Imagine breaker worked on The Alchemist who was trying to attain Deep Blood. Auzord Izzard i think his name was? And in one other situation he negated an earth golem by touching it.
@pierpat said:
@deathhero61: Brah, i know touma's fight.
Check my bio, To aru no-s are up there.
I'm just saying that styles was not that serious against touma, and did not use any agility against him.
While we know that agility is the key to beat touma.
Agility won't be an issue if he can fight against even the fastest of opponents. Like vento for example or accelerator.
@deathhero61 said:
@homicidalmaniac: Imagine breaker worked on The Alchemist who was trying to attain Deep Blood. Auzord Izzard i think his name was? And in one other situation he negated an earth golem by touching it.
Izzard was a low tier reality warper and Imagine Breaker did work .Ellis the Golem is active by magic
Wtf is this? Touma stomps.
No, Imagine Breaker would not negate bending. I posted my argument already in Erik's battle thread if you want to see the entirety of it but her is the summary.
Imagine Breaker does not effect natural abilities, and does not effect life force/energy. Bending is a natural and genetically passed down trait in the world of Avatar. It is not out of the ordinary or supernatural in nature, but actually very commonplace. Moreover bending is controlling the flow of chi or life force to manipulate elements outside your body. As imagine breaker has no effect on life force it will have no effect on bending abilities.
@lunacyde: Touma negate magicians' magic which originally come from their life force and soul.
@lunacyde: That's incorrect and you know it. It's not a genetic trait. It helps to be related to people who can use bending, but Sokka was still the son of a water bender and he couldn't do it. They even explain in the show that people originally couldn't bend and they had to learn it from the creatures around them.
It's a spiritual tie to nature, which makes it Supernatural. And no, it doesn't specifically negate magic. It negates Psychic Powers as well, which is Non-Magic. It negates any type mystical, magical, psionic or otherwise otherworldly force. Considering that an Angel, a Spiritual Entity, refused to even get near him because of his Imagine Breaker indicates it can destroy more than just Magic.
You don't realize how genetic inheretence works do you? It's a lottery, parents don't always pass on specific traits to their children. For example my Dad has brown eyes, but mine are blue.. My sister has green eyes despite neither of my parents having green eyes. Just because some members of a family have a trait doesn't mean that trait will show in every offspring. However eye color is in fact a genetically inheritable trait, just like bending.
Secondly Sokka's father Hakota was not a bender.
Thirdly being born with the potential to bend doesn't mean you don't have to learn how to utilize that ability (which is where learning from the original benders came from).
Fourthly the concept of humans beginning to bend from learning from the original animals was retconned in LoK season 2 where the story of the first Avatar was told. Humans were given the ability to bend by the Lion Turtles through energy bending manipulating their life energy. Humans then internalized the ability and passed it down genetically through their offspring.
Bending is spiritual in that bending is done through manipulating your chi and spirituality helps to control and strengthen that process. However characters like Mako, Zhao, Bolin , the list goes on and on have never demonstrated an ounce of spirituality while a character like Guru Pathik was extremely spiritual and couldn't bend. So clearly spirituality is not directly causal to bending. Heck, Firelord Ozai was the most powerful bender on the planet and was not spiritual at all. So you are wrong.
Also I never stated magic was the only thing that it effects. It effects all supernatural things true, but in their world bending is natural, not supernatural as it is clearly passed down genetically, and is obviously separate from spirituality considering Jinora having spiritual abilities is considered separate from her bending .
Go ahead prove me wrong.
@reikai said:
@lunacyde: That's incorrect and you know it. It's not a genetic trait. It helps to be related to people who can use bending, but Sokka was still the son of a water bender and he couldn't do it. They even explain in the show that people originally couldn't bend and they had to learn it from the creatures around them.
It's a spiritual tie to nature, which makes it Supernatural. And no, it doesn't specifically negate magic. It negates Psychic Powers as well, which is Non-Magic. It negates any type mystical, magical, psionic or otherwise otherworldly force. Considering that an Angel, a Spiritual Entity, refused to even get near him because of his Imagine Breaker indicates it can destroy more than just Magic.
This. I swear to god. Getting bending through genetics is absolutely the stupidest thing i ever heard in my life. He must not have watched legend of korra.
@deathhero61 said:
@reikai said:
@lunacyde: That's incorrect and you know it. It's not a genetic trait. It helps to be related to people who can use bending, but Sokka was still the son of a water bender and he couldn't do it. They even explain in the show that people originally couldn't bend and they had to learn it from the creatures around them.
It's a spiritual tie to nature, which makes it Supernatural. And no, it doesn't specifically negate magic. It negates Psychic Powers as well, which is Non-Magic. It negates any type mystical, magical, psionic or otherwise otherworldly force. Considering that an Angel, a Spiritual Entity, refused to even get near him because of his Imagine Breaker indicates it can destroy more than just Magic.
This. I swear to god. Getting bending through genetics is absolutely the stupidest thing i ever heard in my life. He must not have watched legend of korra.
That is quite hilarious considering I am one of the biggest LoK fans on this site.
Please explain how I am wrong.
Proof that bending is genetically inherited.
- Yakone explicitly states "Our family has the strongest line of bloodbenders in history. You boys have this power inside of you, and I will teach you to master it."
- Being a bender is something determined at birth. Either you are a bender, or you are not. Outside of energybending to change the composition of your life energy there is no other way to become a bender if you are not born with the natural ability.
- Children inherit bending from their parents. Hence why in mixed relationships like that of Bolin and Mako's parent's one child can be one type of bender and the other can be the other type. Also exemplified by Aang and Katara having 3 children, an airbender, a waterbender, and a non-bender.
- Being a bender is also clearly inherited because although benders can be born to non-benders (bending is a recessive trait), two waterbenders, or a waterbender and a non-bender CANNOT give birth to a different kind of bender.
@lunacyde said:
Proof that bending is genetically inherited.
- Yakone explicitly states "Our family has the strongest line of bloodbenders in history. You boys have this power inside of you, and I will teach you to master it."
- Being a bender is something determined at birth. Either you are a bender, or you are not. Outside of energybending to change the composition of your life energy there is no other way to become a bender if you are not born with the natural ability.
- Children inherit bending from their parents. Hence why in mixed relationships like that of Bolin and Mako's parent's one child can be one type of bender and the other can be the other type. Also exemplified by Aang and Katara having 3 children, an airbender, a waterbender, and a non-bender.
- Being a bender is also clearly inherited because although benders can be born to non-benders (bending is a recessive trait), two waterbenders, or a waterbender and a non-bender CANNOT give birth to a different kind of bender.
You must have got this from a wiki because you just contradicted yourself
- Being a bender is something determined at birth. Either you are a bender, or you are not. Outside of energybending to change the composition of your life energy there is no other way to become a bender if you are not born with the natural ability.
You just proved my point that its not a genetic trait. And even then we have seen touma negate explosions from bombs or shockwaves from superhuman fighters. So he can negate fire.
@lunacyde said:
@deathhero61 said:
@reikai said:
@lunacyde: That's incorrect and you know it. It's not a genetic trait. It helps to be related to people who can use bending, but Sokka was still the son of a water bender and he couldn't do it. They even explain in the show that people originally couldn't bend and they had to learn it from the creatures around them.
It's a spiritual tie to nature, which makes it Supernatural. And no, it doesn't specifically negate magic. It negates Psychic Powers as well, which is Non-Magic. It negates any type mystical, magical, psionic or otherwise otherworldly force. Considering that an Angel, a Spiritual Entity, refused to even get near him because of his Imagine Breaker indicates it can destroy more than just Magic.
This. I swear to god. Getting bending through genetics is absolutely the stupidest thing i ever heard in my life. He must not have watched legend of korra.
That is quite hilarious considering I am one of the biggest LoK fans on this site.
Please explain how I am wrong.
rekai explained it perfectly:
That's incorrect and you know it. It's not a genetic trait. It helps to be related to people who can use bending, but Sokka was still the son of a water bender and he couldn't do it. They even explain in the show that people originally couldn't bend and they had to learn it from the creatures around them.
@deathhero61 said:
@lunacyde said:
Proof that bending is genetically inherited.
- Yakone explicitly states "Our family has the strongest line of bloodbenders in history. You boys have this power inside of you, and I will teach you to master it."
- Being a bender is something determined at birth. Either you are a bender, or you are not. Outside of energybending to change the composition of your life energy there is no other way to become a bender if you are not born with the natural ability.
- Children inherit bending from their parents. Hence why in mixed relationships like that of Bolin and Mako's parent's one child can be one type of bender and the other can be the other type. Also exemplified by Aang and Katara having 3 children, an airbender, a waterbender, and a non-bender.
- Being a bender is also clearly inherited because although benders can be born to non-benders (bending is a recessive trait), two waterbenders, or a waterbender and a non-bender CANNOT give birth to a different kind of bender.
You must have got this from a wiki because you just contradicted yourself
- Being a bender is something determined at birth. Either you are a bender, or you are not. Outside of energybending to change the composition of your life energy there is no other way to become a bender if you are not born with the natural ability.
You just proved my point that its not a genetic trait. And even then we have seen touma negate explosions from bombs or shockwaves from superhuman fighters. So he can negate fire.
@lunacyde said:
@deathhero61 said:
@reikai said:
@lunacyde: That's incorrect and you know it. It's not a genetic trait. It helps to be related to people who can use bending, but Sokka was still the son of a water bender and he couldn't do it. They even explain in the show that people originally couldn't bend and they had to learn it from the creatures around them.
It's a spiritual tie to nature, which makes it Supernatural. And no, it doesn't specifically negate magic. It negates Psychic Powers as well, which is Non-Magic. It negates any type mystical, magical, psionic or otherwise otherworldly force. Considering that an Angel, a Spiritual Entity, refused to even get near him because of his Imagine Breaker indicates it can destroy more than just Magic.
This. I swear to god. Getting bending through genetics is absolutely the stupidest thing i ever heard in my life. He must not have watched legend of korra.
That is quite hilarious considering I am one of the biggest LoK fans on this site.
Please explain how I am wrong.
rekai explained it perfectly:
That's incorrect and you know it. It's not a genetic trait. It helps to be related to people who can use bending, but Sokka was still the son of a water bender and he couldn't do it. They even explain in the show that people originally couldn't bend and they had to learn it from the creatures around them.
1. How exactly did I contradict myself? Please, feel free to explain your logic (or lack thereof)
2. Reikai did not explain it perfectly considering his post was littered with inaccuracies. He clearly has no idea how genetic inheritance works, as even the simplest concepts of hereditary genetics that most kids learn in Elementary school seem to elude his grasp. Furthermore it is factually incorrect that Sokka's father was a bender, he was not. Hakota was a non-bender, this is evident from the fact it is stated in the series and that he never once in the series shows the ability to bend. Learning from the creatures has since been retconned, so that too is wrong.
3. Yakone's dialogue directly proves that bending is genetically hereditary.
@lunacyde: You know that the show shown that Bending can be negated.Aang had taken away Ozia's ability to bend fire and all Fire Benders lost their power from the eclipse.When General Zhao killed the Moon Spirit,all of the Water Benders lost their water abilities.Benders are connected to spiritual world and they original gotten their powers from the Lion Turtles.Benders in essence are spiritual based.
If you still think Touma can't negate benders that been past down by generations.Touma negated the Misaka clones powers that were created from the DNA of Misaka Mikoto.
@homicidalmaniac said:
@lunacyde: You know that the show shown that Bending can be negated.Aang had taken away Ozia's ability to bend fire and all Fire Benders lost their power from the eclipse.When General Zhao killed the Moon Spirit,all of the Water Benders lost their water abilities.Benders are connected to spiritual world and they original gotten their powers from the Lion Turtles.Benders in essence are spiritual based.
If you still think Touma can't negate benders that been past down by generations.Touma negated the Misaka clones powers that were created from the DNA of Misaka Mikoto.
Yeah, it can be negated by energy bending or bloodbending in a specific way that blocks that bender's ability to bend. That does not mean that Imagine Breaker can do so because it does not employ either of those methods. Imagine breaker negates things that are abnormal or supernatural. My point isn't that bending doesn't have a spiritual component, but that because it is genetically inherited worldwide and a normal part of their world it is not considered supernatural or abnormal.
According to the Toaru Majutsu no Index wiki...
The Imagine Breaker, however, is unable to negate the lifeforces and souls of human beings,due to them being natural, despite being supernatural as well. According to Leivina Birdway this is because the Imagine Breaker normalizes things that are of abnormal values, specifically, it destroys things that have had their harmony taken. (Toaru Majutsu no Index Light Novel Volume 14 Chapter 3 Part 6)
Since bending is a normal and ordinary trait all over the world in the Avatar Universe it is not something that Imagine Breaker would negate. It is a natural part of the world. In fact the four elements, four nations, and four bending arts create balance and harmony in the Avatar Universe, so without them the their world would be unbalanced. Bending is part of the normal state of the Universe in Avatar.
If you still think Touma can't negate benders that been past down by generations.Touma negated the Misaka clones powers that were created from the DNA of Misaka Mikoto.
Like I said that isn't my point. My point is that bending is something that is as normal in the Avatar Universe as having green eyes, or red hair is in real life. It is something that is genetically inherited throughout the entire world, not just some clones of a specific person with powers. The power of bending is natural in the world of Avatar. Cloning someone with powers is not natural.
Benders are connected to spiritual world and they original gotten their powers from the Lion Turtles.
It is true that benders originally were given the ability to bend by the Lion Turtles in order to protect themselves in the spirit wilds. This was done through energybending and altering the life energy of the person, allowing them to bend. However, after the Spirit Portals were closed and the spirits left the Lion Turtles refused to further grant anyone bending and left humanity. From that point on bending was passed down genetically (with one exception in 10,000 years being Harmonic Convergence).
While Water and Fire benders can lose their bending in conjunction with the sun and moon (because they too are integral parts of the world that everyone needs) that does not mean that Imagine Breaker would negate bending. Bending is using your lifeforce/life energy/chi to manipulate the world around you. Since Imagine Breaker cannot effect life force/ life energy it should not effect bending.
Mako just punches him out with far superior hand to hand skills.
Yeah, it can be negated by energy bending or bloodbending in a specific way that blocks that bender's ability to bend. That does not mean that Imagine Breaker can do so because it does not employ either of those methods. Imagine breaker negates things that are abnormal or supernatural. My point isn't that bending doesn't have a spiritual component, but that because it is genetically inherited worldwide and a normal part of their world it is not considered supernatural or abnormal
The Avatar series consistently show that the Bending and the spiritual world are connected together,being a worldwide by every benders are still have spiritual traits inside them.Magic used to be a pretty common thing back before technology started .Espers abilities are common inside Academy City too,but yet they can still be effect by Imagine Breaker.
Since bending is a normal and ordinary trait all over the world in the Avatar Universe it is not something that Imagine Breaker would negate. It is a natural part of the world. In fact the four elements, four nations, and four bending arts create balance and harmony in the Avatar Universe, so without them the their world would be unbalanced. Bending is part of the normal state of the Universe in Avatar.
Imagine Breaker doesn't effect the life force itself,but that life force convert into other types of sources like magic or telesma while those are still effect by Imagine Breaker.Avatar verse rules doesn't really applies to To Aru verse rules since their different universes.Touma fighting Mako isn't going to break both worlds rules.Terra of the Left stated that Imagine Breaker is more than just negating.Touma have tapped into whats is inside Imagine Breaker and that unknown power is beyond anything in either Avatar or To Aru.
Like I said that isn't my point. My point is that bending is something that is as normal in the Avatar Universe as having green eyes, or red hair is in real life. It is something that is genetically inherited throughout the entire world, not just some clones of a specific person with powers. The power of bending is natural in the world of Avatar. Cloning someone with powers is not natural
It is true that benders originally were given the ability to bend by the Lion Turtles in order to protect themselves in the spirit wilds. This was done through energybending and altering the life energy of the person, allowing them to bend. However, after the Spirit Portals were closed and the spirits left the Lion Turtles refused to further grant anyone bending and left humanity. From that point on bending was passed down genetically (with one exception in 10,000 years being Harmonic Convergence).
While Water and Fire benders can lose their bending in conjunction with the sun and moon (because they too are integral parts of the world that everyone needs) that does not mean that Imagine Breaker would negate bending. Bending is using your lifeforce/life energy/chi to manipulate the world around you. Since Imagine Breaker cannot effect life force/ life energy it should not effect bending
If Water Benders don't need a spirit to use their powers,then they can do just nice without it.The spirits and benders will always be connect someway or somehow and the Avatar will always be the key of that connection..Magicians in To Aru still use their life force to connect with magic and Benders are just using their life force to bend like Magicians .
Touma still haven't unlock his full potential in his right arm.The tapped power that Touma did unlock is above anything that in Avatar
1. I just said how you contradicted yourself, read.
2.Insulting his knowledge on something because he proved you wrong with things that actually happened in the series doesn't mean he knows nothing of genetics.
3.Ummm The lion turtles existence, sozin's comet, the lunar eclispe and several people from DIFFERENT NATIONS gaining air bending contradict this statement heavily.
And you said this:
Since bending is a normal and ordinary trait all over the world in the Avatar Universe it is not something that Imagine Breaker would negate. It is a natural part of the world. In fact the four elements, four nations, and four bending arts create balance and harmony in the Avatar Universe, so without them the their world would be unbalanced. Bending is part of the normal state of the Universe in Avatar.
By that logic alone touma shouldn't be able to negate the powers of anyone in his own universe since super natural powers are "a natural part of the world" The thing you are doing is twisting the words of what touma said in the first episode and attempting to use that to discredit everything even the things that prove you wrong. Its clear that Bending is connected to the spirits. Energy Bending clearly has something to do with the spirits.
@boringperson said:
Mako just punches him out with far superior hand to hand skills.
I don't recall Mako being good at close combat let alone better than touma. And touma has fought against the most powerful superhumans only using his right hand and his close quarters combat skill. So mako shouldn't be much different.
The Avatar series consistently show that the Bending and the spiritual world are connected together,being a worldwide by every benders are still have spiritual traits inside them.Magic used to be a pretty common thing back before technology started .Espers abilities are common inside Academy City too,but yet they can still be effect by Imagine Breaker.
I am assuming you mean magic in the world of Toaru Majutsu? Where is it shown that it is something anywhere close to as widespread and integral to the balance of the world as bending is?
Esper abilities are common inside the academy maybe, but not throughout the world as a whole. They are not nearly as common worldwide as bending is. Bending is so common and prevalent in that world that most of their technology, culture, and tradition is based directly on bending arts. Bending is an integral part of their Universe, and it is far more intertwined with the human population than magic or espers are in To Aru.
Imagine Breaker doesn't effect the life force itself,but that life force convert into other types of sources like magic or telesma while those are still effect by Imagine Breaker.Avatar verse rules doesn't really applies to To Aru verse rules since their different universes.Touma fighting Mako isn't going to break both worlds rules.Terra of the Left stated that Imagine Breaker is more than just negating.Touma have tapped into whats is inside Imagine Breaker and that unknown power is beyond anything in either Avatar or To Aru.
It isn't breaking any rules of the To Aru verse to say that imagine breaker wouldn't effect bending. There are things in the To Aru verse that he cannot effect with imagine breaker. According to the rules of how imagine breaker has been stated to work not effecting bending is in line perfectly with the rules of the To Aru verse.
If Water Benders don't need a spirit to use their powers,then they can do just nice without it.The spirits and benders will always be connect someway or somehow and the Avatar will always be the key of that connection..Magicians in To Aru still use their life force to connect with magic and Benders are just using their life force to bend like Magicians .
Touma still haven't unlock his full potential in his right arm.The tapped power that Touma did unlock is above anything that in Avatar
Air and Earth benders do not rely upon any spirits to bend. Firebenders do rely on the power of the sun, but as a sun spirit has never been acknowledged in Avatar this is a connection to a natural phenomena and not a spirit. Yes, there will always be a connection between benders and the spiritual realm, but that does not mean that Imagine Breaker can shut down bending as he cannot effect souls/ life force, and can only explicitly negate specific things. Life force is not something he can negate, and natural elements are not something he can negate, so he should not be able to negate bending as those are the two elements of bending. The difference between benders and magicians is that magicians use life force to manipulate magic which imagine breaker clearly negates. However benders use their life force to manipulate the natural elements of the world, something that imagine breaker cannot negate as they are natural and not supernatural. Magic is supernatural, Air, Water, Earth, and Fire are natural.
It doesn't matter if he hasn't unlocked all of his potential. There are things in the To Aru verse that he cannot effect, and bending fits in with these things he cannot effect. He only has access to feats that have already transpired, you can't argue that he would use powers he hasn't yet unlocked or used. So his potential does not matter. All that matters is what he has been shown able to do, and that is not to effect life forces or natural elements that are not being controlled through magic.
There are things in the To Aru verse that he cannot effect, and bending fits in with these things he cannot effect. He only has access to feats that have already transpired, you can't argue that he would use powers he hasn't yet unlocked or used.
There hasn't been a single thing touma hasn't been capable of negating. Bending is clearly spiritual. Stop being difficult. I will quote myself again.
The lion turtles existence, sozin's comet, the lunar eclispe and several people from DIFFERENT NATIONS gaining air bending contradict this statement heavily.
This contradicts everything you claim in terms of genetics. And bending not being spiritual. Again. Stop being difficult.
Can touma negate a building collapsing on him? No. Can he negate a hurricane? No. The elements are natural things in the environment being manipulated. By logic he does not have the ability to negate natural things being thrown at him. The fire in fire bending are combustion in the air using one's life force as a trigger it is non magic.
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@9dragons: He once negated a pure shockwave of a superhuman strike, he once negated an explosion from a grenade, and so on and so forth. His power isn't limited to only spiritual capabilities. The fact that he can actually negate attacks from nigh-reality warpers pretty much makes this entire argument null and void.......... plus bending isn't natural, its clearly spiritual and magical in nature
The lion turtles existence, sozin's comet, the lunar eclispe and several people from DIFFERENT NATIONS gaining air bending contradict this statement heavily.
@deathhero61 You are incorrect into assuming anything that is out of the ordinary supernatural, using your interpretation of touma's world as a standard to judge other works is an inherent bias. In this case, assume bending is out of the ordinary. That is a fallacy when it comes to fiction because it lacks neutrality and objectivity. Touma's limited reflexive precognition aka Premonition Perception or third sense is very much out of the ordinary yet he does not negate himself nor the very earth that is connected to spiritual energy as well as the souls that inhabit it. According to the novel, Touma imagine breaker's function is to reset the world to harmony aka normalize abnormal values via touch. His power does not extend to the normalized world which chi is very much a part of in Avatar the last airbender's normalized world. To end one's chi is to end one's life in various fictional works. Chi by default is what martial artists use in any fictional work. By default Touma has Chi too. He just doesn't know how to use it or maybe he does judging how abnormally far he punches people not unlike street fighter.
Bending is harmony and no different from the power of the world that extends to souls that Touma cannot negate. Simply because bending doesn't exist in Touma's world doesn't make it supernatural.In fictional works such as street fighters there is a concept of chi inside every living thing, the world and the universe itself. Characters are able to perform extraordinary feats not unlike Touma's own precognition when comes dodging. They envelope there fist and legs with chi to smash cars and walls ect. Again, imagine breaker does not destroy or negate it simply normalize things back to harmony.
Touma himself isn't superhuman in any manner with the exception of instances of his arm interactions with supernatural attacks, making him seem superhuman in effect only. Consistently, He is still only a high school teen in terms of overall attributes. Please give detail context. Was the grenade a common grenade or was it connected to the supernatural in any manner? His imagine breaker can't negate explosions from man made materials such as a grenade, cuts from swords, blunt trauma from bats, bullets from guns, falling debris, moving cars etc.These values are normal. He is shown negate reality warpers of supernatural in origin. If the supernatural reality waper for instance for split second upset the foundation of a building causing debris to fall into Touma imagine breaker shouldn't work unless the warper's magic is still active pushing magic into the building. Touma negates active abnormal values, resetting them to normal values. The shock wave, and explosion could very well be sustained by abnormal values such as magic or supernatural etc. This is why Touma can normalize it.
I'm going to go with the trained cop over the unathletic high schooler
@khael: Hamazura Shiage isn't too skilled himself. In Touma's verse where magic and esper powers are dominate he sticks out like a sore thumb. Relative to other gunslingers, hand to hand experts, and tacticians in other works, Hamazura pretty subpar. Unless Hamazura demonstrates he can take down hoards of enemies with his bare hands without sustaining a scratch or avoid and gun down hoards of people trigun style Touma defeating him doesn't seem to be a great feat relative to Train Heartnet aka Black Cat, Vash aka Trigun, Dante aka Devil May Cry, Alucard aka Hellsing. Anyone of them would blow Touma's head off without much hesitation if they are blood lusted with uncanny accuracy and reflex the exception of Vash because Vash is a softy he might go for Touma's legs.
@9dragons: Mako doesn't display those feats you mentioned either and his skill is not comparable to any of those guys. Most of his feats is just bending not h2h. When it come to h2h, he most likely get beaten down. Touma on the other hand, he has no choice other than going h2h with his opponent. Also, What's Dante or alucard doing here? Are you implying that Mako can match-up with them? No Mako will also get stomped just like Touma although I think invisible Thing Touma might be has a chance
@khael: It's still the difference in this fight between a 20 year old former professional athlete turned cop vs an unathletic junior in high school who's only saving grace is the most telegraphed punch ever.
@jacthripper said:
@khael: It's still the difference in this fight between a 20 year old former professional athlete turned cop vs an unathletic junior in high school who's only saving grace is the most telegraphed punch ever.
Well that punch 1 shotted a vatican assassin who fodderized a unit of swat unit and is clearly more of a threat than a random ex-pro athlete..
@xiokenji said:
@jacthripper said:
@khael: It's still the difference in this fight between a 20 year old former professional athlete turned cop vs an unathletic junior in high school who's only saving grace is the most telegraphed punch ever.
Well that punch 1 shotted a vatican assassin who fodderized a unit of swat unit and is clearly more of a threat than a random ex-pro athlete..
Yup
And Touma has far better reaction feats
@khael: When fighting against Misaka? Whom he always has time to notice, and she's never actively trying to kill him? Don't be ridiculous, if she wanted to kill him, she'd just use a railgun. Anyways, this is a Vatican Assassin who never worried about damage because it was always reflected (we're talikng about Vento, right?) and it took him multiple hits to take down a 90 lb nun. The only times Touma fought anyone with any H2H skill alone he's lost. Both in the case with Tsuchimikado and Orianna Thomson, he got his @ss beat due to inferior skill. His precog, is not true precog, but more like subconscious awareness of events surrounding supernatural abilities, like how Misaka gives off a slight electrical pulse whenever she uses her power. He's never been shown to be able to use it in a hand to hand fight.
@jacthripper: No
When he fought Fiamma of the Right
Just check out his respect thread bro, it'll help. You need to read the novels, Anime is really outdated
You're acting like Mako didn't get stomped in h2h all the time
@khael: I was illustrating Hamazura Shiage isn't a viable H2H feat for Touma relatively speaking when it comes to anime H2H feats because Hamazura Shiage isn't that great as H2H and Gun slinging character. He does have his moments though. Of course, when it comes to Mako his bending isn't restricted by imagine breaker because bending itself isn't magic intrinsically. The flames are no different from normal flames. They can be extinguish with things in the natural environment, rain etc. Bending is manipulating the environment with your life force aka chi. The energy that is pushing and moving things is chi that exist in all life and non living things. Touma himself has chi as a living being thus a blood bending can manipulate his chi with their own to bend him. The concept of chi is independent from magic.
If you give Touma a fire extinguisher it would be more fair. He might even smack Mako over the head with it and knock him out. In terms of H2H, Mako demonstrated far better skills depicted unless Touma casually takes down hoards of people street fighter style. I'm giving H2H to Mako. It doesn't take a master class H2H expert to take down Touma just a trained one. Touma character is more of a deus ex machina type. His dragons are something to be reckon with, but the usually don't factor in unless someone tears his arm off.
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