Kaine/Venom vs Sinister and Savage Six

VS

Rules

Scenario 1:

-Kaine and Agent Venom Prep For 6 Hours (Restrictions: No Allies or Anything Too Ridiculous)

-Morals Off Kaine and Venom

-Location: Gotham

-Win by KO, Death or Incap

Scenario 2:

-Random Encounter

-Morals Off Kaine and Venom

-Location: Gotham

-Win by KO, Death or Incap

***Both Rounds Sinister and Savage Six Are In Character And Depending On "In Character" Determines How Willing They All Are To Working Together****

Who Wins and WHY?

Calling Out Kaine and Venom fans!

@oreoassassin: oh sh!t this is a hell of a matchup the fanboy in me wants to say AV and Kaine but thats allot of numbers they are up against.

Oh man this is one heated match. I'm not too familiar with the Sinister Six and Savage Six. Anyone care to drop some feats?

That's going to be a very tall order for them. I don't think they can do it.

I'll tag some Spidey fans for info on Sinister Six

Round One I think they can take...BARELY. The main threats to neutralize being Toxin, Sandman, and Electro. All of which have exploitable weaknesses. We know Flash can prep for symbiotes, we've seen it plenty. The others wouldn't require much thought to prep for in all reality, but it's about getting the tech. Morals off, Kaine might even start stealthed and stay that way until forced out, just using his stingers and going for lethal hits. Same could be said for Thompson and his various symbiote blades. But still, those numbers. I think they can edge round one, very very slightly. Even then, I am really not sure. Kaine should share Peter's intellect, which would be beneficial here, but we've never seen him use it really.

Round two I don't see them taking. I see them inflicting casualties, heavy casualties. But there are some heavy hitters in the two Sixes and while Kaine and Flash make these two teams pay they'll go down in a pile of brass.

The reality is Flash took down the Savage Six with no on-panel or stated prep. Kaine hasn't faced a numbers game like this. Neither has faced most of the members of the Sinister Six. So we can't assume they'd know all about the Sinister Six and their capabilities (even though there are some really well known players there) and I think that is what is going to cost them.

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek: @wolverine08:
Copy and pasted some wikis and added in feats, gear and some little facts. Hope it helps!

• Crime-Master (Brant)

  Betty Brant's older brother who got into gambling debt with a gangster named Blackie, and the third person to become the Crime-Master. Gear/Feats: SuperSoaker looking gun that can shoot sonics, napalm, and poison in one. Not really much feats that im aware of except with his weapon he can do damage.

• Death Adder

  Death Adder was a mute killer who was a member of the Serpent Society. He was killed by the Scourge of the Underworld, but later was brought back by The Hood in order to eliminate the Punisher. Most recently Death Adder joined Crime-Master's Savage Six only to be killed by Venom. Gear/Feats: Vicious Claws, Poison, and pretty fast speed. Could tank multiple knives thrown at him.

• Fly

  A small-time thug who battled Spider-Man on several occasions, the Fly was killed by the Scourge of the Underworld. He was later brought back by The Hood, and received power enhancements. Fly was member of Crime-Master's Savage Six until brutally tortured by Venom (wings being ripped off while Flash's mother watched!) Not too many feats im aware of.

• Jack O'Lantern

  Steven Mark Levins is one of several people to call themselves Jack o'Lantern. He has been an enemy to Captain America, Ghost Rider, the Punisher and recently Venom. Plenty of feats if you look around the web lol. http://www.comicvine.com/jack-olantern/4005-40901/

• Megatak

  Gregory Nettles was an industrial thief when a freak accident at an electronics show transformed him into Megatak. His ability to control electricity and electronic components brought him into conflict with Thor. Megatak would later meet his demise by Scourge but is resurrected years later by the Hood. Hes a living computer. Feats im aware of his Venom saying he "hits harder than the Hulk". And hurting on Venom badly.

• Toxin

  Toxin is the symbiote spawn/son of the vicious symbiote Carnage, and grandson of Venom. Toxin is also the most powerful of the symbiotes. Eddie Brock (former Venom, Anti-Venom) has been forcibly bonded to the Toxin symbiote.

I don't think they can do it. Neither Kaine for Flash really have anything that great to speak of regarding prep. Kaine's got Peter's marbles...but he doesn't really ever seem to use them.

Kaine has no Spider-Sense...and he's said himself that Spider-Sense is the biggest advantage you can have in a fight. In a fight with this many opponents...he's going to have a hard time watching his back.

Flash has had his hands full dealing with Toxin, Fly, and Jack O'Lantern alone individually.

Both Flash and Kaine have had their troubles dealing with Kraven.

Kaine doesn't have Spider-Sense?

What if Venom splits a piece of itself and gives it to Kaine?

I can kind of agree with this, but the problem is, I am not sure 6 hours of prep will be enough for these numbers, and the parties involved. Flash is the better of the two with prep, but neither have the scientific know how of Spidey, and I think the number and variety of powers might be a bit much much for a mere 6 hours.

Electro last I saw was still basically living electricity (Thor bfr'd him in Ends of the Earth, but I have not read the Superior stuff with him), then you add in Sandman (who is tough for even a prepped Spidey to beat until Ends of the Earth and these two aren't coming up with that kind of prep), Toxin (who Venom could feasibly prep for, but is still insanely tough to deal with), I just don't know their chances would be good even if they Vulked and Other'ed out, especially with the numbers involved and one group being very well versed in people with spider type powers.

Sad to say, but I think Kaine and Venom lose both rounds, but not without heavy casualties on the other side.

@wyldsong: You know what, you're right. I figured Electro was the form pictured, but if he is last version (EotE) then he could solo both. Peter only was able to resist him because he prepped an insulted suit for him. Flash carries symbiote serum standard, so Toxin might be manageable. Sandman, I don't think they have an answer for. Web cocoon, maybe? That's there best chance and I want to say Peter has tried that and it failed. Oh, and I read 6 hours as 6 days (working long hours leave me alone!) so I COMPLETELY dropped the ball on that. So yeah, Flash and Kaine go down even though Flash has far better control and showings since his run-in with the Savage Six. It's still not a stomp, however, and Flash and Kaine inflict heavy losses on the two Sixes.

Yeah, I don't think web cocoon will do it, and last time Pete dealt with Sandman, he had to isolate the control particle, and that was part of 6 months worth of prep for all of the Sinister Six.

Kaine has faced numbers as current Kaine/Scarlet Spider he fought the Rangers....but IDK....use the old Kaine

CLASSIC KAINE SOLOS!!!!

@oreoassassin: why am I not on that list >:(

Nope. He does have superior physical stats to Peter and he's got his talons...but he lost his Spider-Sense after Spider-Island.

Electro and Sandman could win on their own.

Round 1, Flash and Kaine take it by the skin o' their arses, and I have to emphasise BARELY. I'm assuming this is pre-other Kaine, but morals off doesnt mean much since he goes for the killing blow a whole lot. If, and I do mean if, Kaine can use the Other and Flash can "Vulk" Out, then they will have a much easier time with the Sinister Six, but as is, I see them just barely pulling it off. Electro and Sandman would have to be taken off the board almost immediately for them to pull of the win.

as for Round 2: As is? Ain't no way. Toxin Solos, and with Jack backing him up, Kaine and Venom are DONE. Again, if Kaine is allowed the Other, and Flash can Vulk Out, they might stand a chance. Brock put up a decent fight with Toxin when he was bonded to pat, and given that Flash seemingly has a better Rapport with Venom, I can a see a full scale Vulk-Out give Toxin a run for the money, while Kaine/Other takes the rest handidly.

Nice battle dude!

@oreoassassin: Thanks for calling.

Round 1 - the Spider Duo can take it after a long and bloody combat. Agent Venom is used to deal with multiple enemies at the same time. He did it before against Hellstrom, U-Foes (who all had super powers), and other already cited enemies. Kaine has also proven he can deal with a entire team when he faced the X-Men. Now put those two together and a good amount of time for preparation and you have a solid combo to put those villains down. Flash can work something out with the military and other resources to bring whatever he needs to this battle. Not to mention that Venom does have a spider-sense and also can Vulk-Out during the fight which would turn things more difficult to the Sixes. I see Kaine working on a stealthy way taking one by one smoothly.

Round 2 - I don't see they taking mostly because they don't have an immediate response to some of those enemies. Flash needed to take them before using everything he got at disposal and at some point that didn't seem to be enough. Even with the possibility to go full rage against them, there are too many enemies to deal with and they would eventually fall.

Great match btw.

@rd189: @higorm: @granitesoldier: What makes you say they can win when they can't do anything to Sandman and Electro has enough power output to put them both down with relative ease without a plot device to hinder him? I'm a big fan of Kaine but under no circumstance should he take a majority against either of these two. He could potentially beat Electro in his "Other" form but he still can't do anything to Sandman same applies to Flash.

Don't see how Team 1 would deal with Sandman or Electro.........

@strider92: I said they can take them round 1 with prep. Round 2 they lose.

Unless Flash can pull something huge out of his ass in 6 hours, I don't think the duo can pull a majority. They will pull some casualties, but they can't take both teams at once it's just too overwhelming.

Round two they lose a lot easier. In a random encounter I don't really see any body in the teams as being non factors. Too many people to handle makes them get practically stomped.

@higorm: And what prep can they pull that will have any effect on Sandman?

@Strider92

Flash proved he is smart enough to figure out specific counters for his enemies. Nothing on Peter's level of preparation but still enough to at least incapacitate him, I mean, is that too hard to think about something to neutralize a guy who's name is Sandman? Someone Peter himself was able to defeat before? I believe 6 hours is enough time for him to work something with Kaine, something that can explore the reactions of his material-like sand body. He possess several weakness that can be explored here.

Few examples:

They can either bring fire, water or eletric based weapons/devices, use the other enemies like Electro against him or explore the symbiote to reach physiology functions. The symbiote was able to hurt him before..

Gallery

@higorm: 6 hours that they still have to prep for Electro, Toxin, and everyone else. I really, really don't see them as having enough time. Like you said, these guys aren't on Pete's level of prep.

@higorm: The difference is Peter is a scientific genius who has extensive experience dealing with Sandman and it took him extensive prep from him to neutralize Sandman during EoTE. Flash is not a genius neither does he have extensive experience with Sandman. 6 hours is nowhere close to enough! I'd doubt Peter could do it in 6 hours if he didn't have the gear to hand and had to design it.

@strider92: check the scans. I've just edited my post.

Striker doesn't seem to be a genius, yet even being a Academy rookie, he did know about Sandman's weakness. I believe Flash already have the same knowledge, so with the 6 hours I find to be more than enough to pull out something to generate enough eletricity or fire, water or whatever other thing to explore his weakness. Sandman was neutralized several times through this means before, they can do it again.

Not to mention, considering the location (Gotham), it's a place they can also explore said weakness. Depending on the location, it would make things even easier. At least it's a location he doesn't have a way to boost himself.

Well, Flash already defeated Toxin, so there's not much of preparation to spend on him, the real problem would be Electro, since most of the others can be taken out without prep. I will work on Electro later. Have to lunch now :P

@higorm: First, enjoy your lunch=)

Second, I still don't see them taking down these 12 guys with just 6 hours. This is 6 hours to plan, go out and gather materials in an unfamiliar city, scout the area, build what needs to be built, and so on. Six hours just isn't enough time, especially since they are denied the help of allies and are on their own. It's easy to say they can figure out and exploit weaknesses, but its a little harder to get and build the stuff to do it, and have it function well enough to handle a foe sufficiently.

Striker has a very specific power set to be able to deal with a foe like Sandman, and can generate it in amounts to make it worthwhile. Kaine and Flash have to build or find something in a city they are not familiar with, and have only 6 hours to do it in while figuring out what to do about everyone else.

They're not making it through. Kaine lacks Spider-sense, which was a massive crutch for Peter against the Sinister Six and he's definitely not creative nor brilliant enough to utilize the Six's weaknesses against themselves in the same manner Peter did. Although, as Kaine is at least twice as strong as Peter, far more brutal, possesses camo and is willing to kill, he's not going down without flatout murdering several opponents here.

As for Flash lacking morals, he can hold his own decently against the Savages but Toxin already hilariously outmatches him alone and Kaine will already have his hands full with the Sinister Six. On top of that, the two of them aren't exactly copacetic.

I'd bet on the villains taking it.

@strider92: I'd already modified my above comment. I read part of the OP wrong. I read it as 6 days not 6 hours. I made a new post above yesterday saying they lose both rounds.

First, thanks, it was a great meal :P

Second, a Morals OFF Agent Venom can take most of the Savage Six rooster except for Toxin early in the fight. He already did that before while acting with morals. He can also take half of the Sinister Six in the exact same way. He can either control them with the symbiote or use his multiple tendrils as weapons, thus sustaining a fight from distance. Kaine can work his way using his stealth approach to take the rest, leaving the real threats for last. They can also use webbing to neutralize most of them right away. There is no weakness to figure out about Sandman. They already know his weakness. They just need to find something they can use against him, exploring his weakness to fire, water and eletricity. There's plenty options avaiable for either. About Electro, would he be able to see Kaine while invisible? If Kaine manage to take him down first, then it's easier to see the duo winning.

Seems the duo fails..... Anyone think i should create a new thread adding in good ol Peter Parker?

@higorm: Ermmmm to my knowledge Spider-man has never beaten Sandman with electricity and turning him into glass. If you can show me a scan of Pete doing this i'll concede the point but I have never seen Peter use electricity to defeat Sandman like that. I've seen him use acid webbing, acid traps, water (when Sandman was weakened), that piece of tech he used in EoTE and even a hoover (massive PIS in Spider-man's favor there) but never electricity. That scan seems like BS to me.

@higorm: Thanks!

Electro as last seen is living lightning (just checked over the latest Superior Team-Up appearance, and it looks like he can still change forms):

Not to mention they don't have an answer for Mysterio's illusions like Spidey did:

As for this exploiting Sandman's weakness...if turning him into glass was as easy as you are trying to make it out to be...wouldn't Spidey just do that every time they met, and be prepped to do so? Doc Ock did it once, and if memory serves, he had prep to do it, and obviously has the smarts and the resources. I maintain that 6 hours is not enough here. It's not like acquiring a little taser or something. The amount of heat to turn sand into glass is somewhere in the range of what, 3000F to 4200F? Most military flamethrowers might get up to 1200C (2192F)? So, where and how in 6 hours are they going to get something they can reasonably get under their own resources without help in a city they do not know that can achieve this? And then prep for everyone else?

By the way, glad you enjoyed your lunch=)

I know Ock did it once, but see my post above for thoughts on this sand bit.

@Strider92:

I don't remember either, my point was Flash being able to replicate a feat that was done by a rookie member from the Avengers Academy, if Strike had the knowledge, I'm sure Flash had it too, not to menton Kaine share knowledge with Peter too, right? Also, from the scan it doesn't seem to need much of eletricity to turn his whole arm into glass.

@Wyldsong: LOLZ!!

I didn't know about Electro current power level, I thought he was back at his human form that street level characters manage to beat. But last time I checked, the Venom symbiote was immune to eletricity, I really don't know if this immunity has changed:

The Venom symbiote proved to be able to take Electro without much effort in Peter Parker: Spider-Man. Again, I don't know how good is this "new version", but now he seems to be the only major threat among the others. Also, has Electro also changed his personality, he used to be so stupid..

About Mysterios illusions, can't danger sense get pass through that? Also, would he have time to use it against a morals off Kaine and Venom? How fast can he use said move? Not to mention that Agent Venom can use camouflage abilities and Kaine can use his stealth suit. It's not going to be that easy.

As for Sandman, he is the least of Flash problems, really. Even without any weapon or device directly related to his weakness to water, fire or eletricity, the Venom symbiote can take him using his own power. I don't know if you remember, but the Venom symbiote already manage to beat Sandman more than once before. Just check scans above:

Gallery

Now I'm eating pizza \o/

The Vaccum cleaner incident was actually retconned during the Back in Black Spider-Man arc. Apperently Sandman intentionally got captured so he could find his Dad in Prison. Also it the newest Marvel Knights arc, Spider-Man beat Sandman by kicking him in the b"llocks, but my Bullsh!t level detector exploded when I put it within 20 feet of my laptop.......

@higorm: Enjoy the pizza now. It's always food with you=P

Yeah, I have to say that Venom hurting Sandman with a bite it pure PIS. Sandman has a morphological form that has taken all forms of damage without issue in the past.

Mysterio's illusions don't really take a lot of time to set up (they never have in the past, its pretty much there when he needs it)...regardless, I have to take a pass on the rest of the discussion. I am finishing up my little Witchblade project, and am planning on putting up some Witchblade luv on the forums here shortly to better educate the world on it=)

Duke it out and keep it clean guys=)

@wyldsong: thanks, I love food, one of my weakness :P

good debate thoug, we should do a CaV one of these days..

@higorm: I wouldn't mind doing the CaV thing, as long as it is with a civil debating partner such as yourself=)

I have one in the wings with the Darkness, and I am just waiting on my partner for that one to finish up a CaV they are in. I'll hit you up in a bit in the CaV thread, and we can discuss it.

That picture of Kaine, Venom, and Carnage is some amazing art.

One of my favorites!!

@oreoassassin: I can see why.