Define "better." Manifold is perhaps better able to teleport himself, as he doesn't need to know the exact location of his destination. But in an offensive battle of teleporting, Manifold has to open portals and then somehow force his enemy through them. Cyborg operates under no such restriction.
I haven't read the thread and I am not saying the avengers win but in avengers #5 manifold was teleporting some alien space crafts inside each other to destroy them.
@jackofspades: Its so annoying when people say that. Or like speedblitz win or something. Flash would lose to half the people who they said Flash would win against.
Tech : Edge Marvel (Iron Man) (Agree, although Cyborg is also a technopath. DC edge if Green Lantern counts)
Intelligence : Edge DC? (Batman) (Probably edges out Tony in this sort of situation.)
Military Strategy : Edge Marvel (Thor & Captain America) (Batman, Wonder Woman, Cyborg, Martian Manhunter are all strategic)
Speed : Edge DC (Flash, Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter)
Strength : Edge Marvel (?) - Hulk, Thor, Hyperion & Iron Man >=< Superman, Wonder Woman, MM, Aquaman, Dr. Fate (Superman-Level physicals), Green Lantern
Cosmic Power : Edge Marvel?
Magic : Edge Marvel (Thor)DC (Dr. Fate)
Leadership : Edge Tie (Captain America, Iron Manvs Batman, Martian Manhunter)
Psionics: DC (Martian Manhunter)
@GypRosetti said:
Even without BFR you divide and conquer. Cyborg, Batman, Hawkeye & Black Widow are sitting ducks in this battle. They can be easily one shotted by any number of the opposition so can Flash IF hit. If you target the weak links the strong links in the chain are drawn out to protect them and that leaves Superman, the strongest member of the JL, who can be hurt with magic (Thor) open. Once Superman is out of the equation it's straightforward.
Most of the street levellers are going to be non-factors. Any of the DC powerhouses can almost instantly solo Spider-Man, Spider-Woman, Shang Chi, Cap, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Manifold, and Falcon. DC's speed advantage should allow them to do so, too, while defending Cyborg and Batman. This puts the numbers at 9-9 by my count. Hulk and Sunspot can easily be BFR'd by anyone with superstrength and a speed advantage, which makes it 9-7 in favor of DC. Cannonball is outclassed by the DC powerhouses, and Smasher has few feats to put her on their level.Iron Man isn't Superman-level, and he'll be hampered by having to resist Cyborg's technopathy. Martian Manhunter can mindwipe everyone on the Avengers with the occasional exception of Thor and Cap Universe, as far as I know. And Dr. Fate can give many incarnations of Cap Universe a very good fight, and teamed with the rest of the League, Thor and Universe can't win this one by themselves.
Conclusion: DC's speed advantage can rapidly eliminate their numbers disadvantage, and they should be able to defeat the more powerful members of the Avengers once their numbers are depleted.
@Esquire: A thunderclap from the Hulk would instantly take out more than half the competitors. That leaves the big hitters. Cyborg is a joke. He can lift 4-5 tons. He's not a threat. Speed is great when you need to run from a fight, against the Hulk who has no ceiling limit on his strength hitting him just makes him madder which makes him stronger and more durable. Hulk & Hyperion have healing factors. Only MM on the DC side has a healing factor but he's vulnerable to fire, Thor can set him alight so that takes him out of the equation. Aquaman isn't as strong on land. Thor has lead armies into battle. He's on a different level in terms of military strategy to a detective and a lame Cyborg. Green Lantern doesn't count as tech. He's not responsible for creating the ring.
@Esquire: A thunderclap from the Hulk would instantly take out more than half the competitors. That leaves the big hitters. Cyborg is a joke. He can lift 4-5 tons. He's not a threat. Speed is great when you need to run from a fight, against the Hulk who has no ceiling limit on his strength hitting him just makes him madder which makes him stronger and more durable. Hulk & Hyperion have healing factors. Only MM on the DC side has a healing factor. Again that's a big edge to Marvel. Everyone else can be put down, including Superman. Thor has lead armies into battle. He's on a different level in terms of military strategy to a detective and a lame Cyborg. Green Lantern doesn't count as tech. He's not responsible for creating the ring.
Are you talking seriously?Hulk will be the least problem that the JLA will have.I said it many times,as long as the Avengers have Cap Universe DC don't stand a chance here.
i think the big hitters on both teams is hyperion,flash,MM,cap universe,dr fate,supes,hulk,GL,and manifold yes manifold i like him he can bfr alot of people at one time
@GypRosetti: Yet, you gave the Magic edge to Thor. Tell me that you aren't one-sided. Doctor Fate definitely takes the magic edge. He could easily defeat 95% of the Avengers. Yes, he can do that.
@darkelf35: Yes Cyborg's tech is so good he runs a multi billion dollar weapons and defence company. There is a different between strategy and military strategy. Thor is a born warrior, he's been fighting for thousands of years, he's lead armies, fought in full scale wars.
Based off of what we have to go off of right now the JLA win (assuming this is pre 52, I haven't read the full thread). Even if we assume Hyperion is durable enough to tank 2 universes he has no telepathic defense feats. Manhunter can take out so many people with ease. The only one with telepathic defense feats are thor, spider-woman, hulk, wolverine and I think iron man. Spider-woman is only capable of beating batman, she can't do anything to any one else. So she's out. Wolverine is basically the same deal as spider-woman, he might be able to beat aquaman as well I suppose but he loses to anyone else and is pretty useless afterwards. Iron man is going to get stomped by anyone except aquaman and batman (he beats both aquaman and batman pretty easily IMO). Hulk doesn't have the speed to beat wonder woman, superman, martian, or flash so he's out. Thor has the same issue as hulk as well IMO. And I am being a bit generous to the avengers as well. The only thing they got going for them is captain universe who I don't think has the feats to be a problem. I will wait before I make judgement on her (is her spot light issue coming out next week, or next month?) but as things currently stand I say the JLA win. Captain universe has potential but no feats IMO. Manifold can be a problem with BFR but he should get taken out quickly unless I am missing some speed,durability, or TP resistance showings (which is possible as I am only familiar of what Hickmin has shown us).
Captain Universe and Thor is who it comes down to for the Avengers. Why? Flash takes out the street levelers easily. Doctor Fate and Captain Universe fight for the battle. Thor and Superman with Green Lantern fight as well. Which leaves Sunspot, Cannonball, Smasher, Iron Man, Hulk, Hyperion, and Captain Marvel for the others. Hulk, Smasher, Sunspot, Cannonball, Captain Marvel could also be taken down by Flash, Wonder Woman, and Martian Manhunter quickly. Hulk cant smash what he cant touch. Or a quick teleportation from Doctor Fate or Cyborg would quickly end Hulk. This now leaves Iron Man and Hyperion. Cyborg should be able to shut Iron Man down or control Iron Man, thus turning him on his own team. Martian Manhunter and Wonder Woman end Hyperion. Wonder Woman alone could stalemate Hyperion, add in Martian Manhunter then it is game over.
So we will say Hyperion managed to take down Batman and Aquaman, leaving 7-2. I need feats on Captain Universe and if he can even deal with Doctor Fate. Thor isn't much of a match for Superman, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, and Martian Manhunter.
Until I know more of Captain Universe, Justice League wins. They have the numbers. Fate, Superman, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, Cyborg, Flash, and Martian Manhunter may be able to take down Captain Universe.
A thunderclap from the Hulk would instantly take out more than half the competitors.
A single thunderclap will attack in all directions. The Avengers have 8 characters with street-level durability who are unable to tank it. Everyone on the DC team other than Batman and possibly Cyborg has the durability to tank it without much issue. They also have Green Lantern, who can bubble all of them in a construct to protect them. If Hulk thunderclaps, he'll do far more harm to his own team than he will to his enemies. But Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, Dr. Fate, and quite possibly Aquaman can simply fly in at superspeed and throw Banner into space before he can react. Hyperion can maybe stop one of them, but there are too many DC characters with superspeed for the Avengers to prevent a mass blitz. If Hulk doesn't kill half his team by thunderclapping, then the JLA can blitz all of the street-levellers into oblivion before most of the Marvel heavy hitters can stop them.
That leaves the big hitters. Cyborg is a joke. He can lift 4-5 tons. He's not a threat.
Cyborg's effectiveness has nothing to do with his lifting power. His versatility is what makes him a threat. He has sonic attacks that were able to incapacitate Superman and he can BFR almost everyone in this match. He'll lose a punching contest against some of the Avengers sluggers, but that's not what he's here for. Discounting his usefulness because of his relatively low strength is a very shortsighted argument.
Speed is great when you need to run from a fight,
Yes, it is. It's also great when you can fly around your opponent and hit him dozens of times before he knows what's happening, or can grab him and throw him into outer space before he can react to you. Speed is a huge factor in battles, and the Justice League has a substantial speed advantage.
against the Hulk who has no ceiling limit on his strength hitting him just makes him madder which makes him stronger and more durable.
Right. Which is why Hulk has never lost a fight or gotten KO'd. Even if this was universally true, Hulk literally cannot tag Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Flash, Dr. Fate. or Martian Manhunter. He'll have a lot of trouble hitting Aquaman, too. Most of them have the strength to beat down current Hulk, and even if he was truly unbeatable, he has neither the reaction speed nor the travel speed to make BFR ineffective. I refer you to any Hulk vs Superman thread ever.
Hulk & Hyperion have healing factors. Only MM on the DC side has a healing factor but he's vulnerable to fire, Thor can set him alight so that takes him out of the equation.
Pre-52 Martian Manhunter overcame his weakness to fire, and New 52 hasn't displayed any sign of being vulnerable to it. Even if he was, the Avengers team wouldn't know to exploit it. And healing factors aren't going to net team Marvel a win. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Hulk can be BFR'd if he can't be put down, and Hyperion can't hold off the whole JLA by himself.
Aquaman isn't as strong on land.
But he's still stronger than most of the Avengers here. And the rest of the JLA's strong members can compete easily with the higher tier Avengers.
Thor has lead armies into battle. He's on a different level in terms of military strategy to a detective and a lame Cyborg.
Thor almost never displays any sort of strategic acumen. This is the guy who's tried to beat everyone from Thor to Odin by smacking them with his hammer. He doesn't think tactically in a vast majority of his appearances, and his higher-end tactical feats do nothing to put him above Bruce. Wonder Woman is also a warrior with mass amounts of battle experience. Martian Manhunter has been leading Stormwatch, and is now taking the reins of the new Justice League of America. And what's with the Cyborg hate?
Green Lantern doesn't count as tech. He's not responsible for creating the ring.
I wasn't sure what you meant by tech advantage. The JL has more advanced tech thanks to the ring, and the ability to create tech won't mean much since there's no prep.
@Fallen_Crippled: I was going on the first two pictures. It seems stupid to include a magician on one side only.
It's in the OP. It seems stupid to ignore it, lol.
Based off of what we have to go off of right now the JLA win (assuming this is pre 52, I haven't read the full thread). Even if we assume Hyperion is durable enough to tank 2 universes he has no telepathic defense feats. Manhunter can take out so many people with ease. The only one with telepathic defense feats are thor, spider-woman, hulk, wolverine and I think iron man. Spider-woman is only capable of beating batman, she can't do anything to any one else. So she's out. Wolverine is basically the same deal as spider-woman, he might be able to beat aquaman as well I suppose but he loses to anyone else and is pretty useless afterwards. Iron man is going to get stomped by anyone except aquaman and batman (he beats both aquaman and batman pretty easily IMO). Hulk doesn't have the speed to beat wonder woman, superman, martian, or flash so he's out. Thor has the same issue as hulk as well IMO. And I am being a bit generous to the avengers as well. The only thing they got going for them is captain universe who I don't think has the feats to be a problem. I will wait before I make judgement on her (is her spot light issue coming out next week, or next month?) but as things currently stand I say the JLA win. Captain universe has potential but no feats IMO. Manifold can be a problem with BFR but he should get taken out quickly unless I am missing some speed,durability, or TP resistance showings (which is possible as I am only familiar of what Hickmin has shown us).
@Esquire: Speed isn't an issue as you think. See the Thor v Superman thread. Thor can command Mjolnir to hit Flash and Superman, the hammer travels much faster than Thor, it's a homing device, one hit from his magical hammer and both are down for the count. That takes the two fasted DC characters out of the fight. MM is still prone to fire so again Thor or Hyperion take him out. Thor is a major difference maker here. He's hugely underrated. Cyborg is a lame two bit character. Hulk would crush him with a flick of a finger. Once Flash, Superman and MM are out the Avengers could go home as Hulk murders the rest. Superman has a weakness, Flash has a weakness i.e. physically he's nothing, MM has a weakness, Green Lantern has a weakness. Hulk has no weakness, Thor has no weakness. Hyperion has no weakness. Iron Man has no weakness. They can only be overcome by might or magic. I'm guessing Captain Universe takes care of Dr Fate. As for Cannonball he's very dangerous - force field = Hulk thunderclap.
Cannonball possesses the ability to bodily generate thermo-chemical energy and release it through his skin. Accompanied by smoke, flame, and condensation, the equal and opposite reaction to this energy release propels his body through the air like a human rocket. Originally, Cannonball was unable to stop the propulsion until his immediate store of energy was depleted or until he hit an object of sufficient mass to stop him. With practice, however, Cannonball can now cut off his propulsive power at will. As a side effect of forming the thermo-chemical energies over the surface of his body, Cannonball is rendered virtually invulnerable while in flight. Accompanying the release of energy is a half-inch thick energy field that channels the explosion and protects his skin from the direct effects of the blast. It also negates momentum and related effects, thereby cushioning his body from any impact up to a half-minute from the depletion of his energy. Cannonball's "blast field" extends to any person or object with which he is in physical contact, and he can extend it further by concentrating to form a protective shield, even while standing still. Cannonball is also able to absorb kinetic energy through the field he generates and use it to either strengthen his field or redirect it as concussive force. Cannonball once recovered from mortal injuries that left him seemingly dead. It has been theorized that Cannonball's recovery was an indication that he was an External, one of a group of immortal mutants. However, since it has subsequently been demonstrated that even Externals can be permanently killed, doubt has been cast on his alleged immortality.
Simply put, the Avengers have 17 characters, and only 5 of them are capable of any sort of reaction to Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Martian Manhunter, and Dr. Fate if they try to blitz. That's a generous number, too.I don't know of any reaction feats for the new Smasher to put her on that level of speed, and Cannonball has better travel speed than reaction speed. The only ones I would say for sure don't get blitzed are Cap Marvel, Cap Universe, and Hyperion. Almost everyone else should be able to be blitzed by all the JL members except Cyborg and Batman.
See the Thor v Superman thread. Thor can command Mjolnir to hit Flash and Superman, the hammer travels much faster than Thor, it's a homing device, one hit from his magical hammer and both are down for the count. That takes the two fasted DC characters out of the fight.
First of all, this isn't something Thor is going to think to do in-character most of the time. He's been blitzed plenty of times without doing so, so I don't see any reason he'll think to do it here. Second, he doesn't have the reaction time to do so before he gets blitzed. He's been blitzed by Spiderman and has been hit by Rhino before he could react, so the JL will have no trouble doing the same thing. And third, Mjolnir can supposedly travel 2x lightspeed. It hasn't been shown doing so in quite some time, but even if we assume that it still can, New-52 Superman has traveled hundreds of times FTL and Flash has outraced things Superman couldn't. So Mjolnir probably can't tag them, anyway.
MM is still prone to fire so again Thor or Hyperion take him out.
Where are you getting this? I know for a fact that he's not vulnerable to it anymore pre-52, and I have seen no indication of a vulnerability in the New 52. The only time he's been hurt by fire is Helspont's attacks, which aren't really fire, anyway, and have the sheer power to hurt him regardless of vulnerability. Why are you so sure he's vulnerable? And why would Thor or Hyperion use that kind of attack? They wouldn't know his weaknesses, even if fire was one of them. And J'onn can mindwipe both of them before they try it, anyway. Hyperion has no TP resistance feats, and Thor has been mind-controlled plenty of times.
Thor is a major difference maker here. He's hugely underrated.
Thor is a very powerful character. He's also massively slower than 77% of his opponents and fights stupidly, without using a vast majority of his powers in almost all of his showings.
Cyborg is a lame two bit character.
Again, why the Cyborg hate?
Hulk would crush him with a flick of a finger.
Hulk would get BFR'd before he had a chance to touch Vic.
Once Flash, Superman and MM are out the Avengers could go home as Hulk murders the rest.
Please. Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Green Lantern, and Dr. Fate can all BFR Hulk with ease, and Wonder Woman can incapacitate him with her lasso. Dr. Fate could revert him back to Banner or use any of a huge variety of magical attacks to beat Hulk. Hulk also has no way to tag any of those characters. Oh, and Cyborg could just2 Boom-Tube him to Apokolips.
Superman has a weakness,
He's not really weak to magic, he's just less strong against it. But it's not a huge problem, since Dr. Fate should be able to undo Mjolnir's enchantments.
Flash has a weakness i.e. physically he's nothing,
He's tanked hits from Superman, and knocked Clark around pretty well. He's also able to phase through almost any attacks the Avengers try to hit him with, or simply dodge them. He can vibrate things to destroy them, steal the air from people's lungs with vortexes...he's an extremely useful character, and nearly impossible to put down.
MM has a weakness,
Again, I've seen no indication of it in the New-52. And the picture in the OP is of Pre-52 J'onn, where I have scans to prove he's lost his weakness.
Green Lantern has a weakness.
What weakness would this be? ...Please don't say yellow.
Hulk has no weakness,
Except his lack of speed that lets him get harmlessly BFR'd the instant the battle begins.
Thor has no weakness.
Except his lack of speed that lets him get beaten down by several characters the instant the battle begins.
Hyperion has no weakness.
Except his lack of telepathy resistance which lets him get mind-controlled and turned against his own team the instant the battle begins.
Iron Man has no weakness.
And is also outclassed by most of the Justice League, and is against Cyborg who can assimilate his tech and slow him down technopathically.
They can only be overcome by might or magic.
Luckily, the JL has lots and lots of might, and also has Dr. Fate, a ridiculously adept magician. Oh, and Martian Manhunter, who can own Hyperion and Thor with telepathy.
I'm guessing Captain Universe takes care of Dr Fate.
Do you have any reasons to believe this? Captain Universe fluctuates hugely in power based on incarnation. Has the latest one shown any substantial level of power?
As for Cannonball he's very dangerous - force field = Hulk thunderclap. [Wiki copypasta]
Copy-pasting from a wiki isn't going to convince anyone of anything. Cannonball has no TP resistance, so Martian Manhunter can mindwipe him at the start of the fight.
@jackofspades: I haven't been keeping up with the new 52 justice league so I don't know.
the new justice league is just a little weaker than pre 52 i would say that flash got taken down the most
Superman, WW, and J'onn all seem to be similarly as powerful as before, but Hal is definitely weaker and Barry isn't Wally.
Batman's the same but, well, that's pretty useless in this fight. It's hard to judge Aquaman, I think he MIGHT be better, but I'm not sure. Cyborg wasn't in the old core JL, but I'd probably take him over any of the more constant members (like Canary, Green Arrow, Atom or Hawkman).
The biggest issue is Barry being really, really weak (Weaker than Wally by far, and even weaker than his old self from Pre-52), even without speed steal or IMP, he's missing one of Wally's best team-centric powers in the speed lend which helped the JL out constantly (formulate intricate plans before their opponents could react). Barry's just a fast guy who can phase, but can't hit for beans and has tons of weaknesses.
@jackofspades: I haven't been keeping up with the new 52 justice league so I don't know.
the new justice league is just a little weaker than pre 52 i would say that flash got taken down the most
Superman, WW, and J'onn all seem to be similarly as powerful as before, but Hal is definitely weaker and Barry isn't Wally.
Batman's the same but, well, that's pretty useless in this fight. It's hard to judge Aquaman, I think he MIGHT be better, but I'm not sure. Cyborg wasn't in the old core JL, but I'd probably take him over any of the more constant members (like Canary, Green Arrow, Atom or Hawkman).
The biggest issue is Barry being really, really weak (Weaker than Wally by far, and even weaker than his old self from Pre-52), even without speed steal or IMP, he's missing one of Wally's best team-centric powers in the speed lend which helped the JL out constantly (formulate intricate plans before their opponents could react). Barry's just a fast guy who can phase, but can't hit for beans and has tons of weaknesses.
very true and i think aquaman is a little better than his old self
Based off of what we have to go off of right now the JLA win (assuming this is pre 52, I haven't read the full thread). Even if we assume Hyperion is durable enough to tank 2 universes he has no telepathic defense feats. Manhunter can take out so many people with ease. The only one with telepathic defense feats are thor, spider-woman, hulk, wolverine and I think iron man. Spider-woman is only capable of beating batman, she can't do anything to any one else. So she's out. Wolverine is basically the same deal as spider-woman, he might be able to beat aquaman as well I suppose but he loses to anyone else and is pretty useless afterwards. Iron man is going to get stomped by anyone except aquaman and batman (he beats both aquaman and batman pretty easily IMO). Hulk doesn't have the speed to beat wonder woman, superman, martian, or flash so he's out. Thor has the same issue as hulk as well IMO. And I am being a bit generous to the avengers as well. The only thing they got going for them is captain universe who I don't think has the feats to be a problem. I will wait before I make judgement on her (is her spot light issue coming out next week, or next month?) but as things currently stand I say the JLA win. Captain universe has potential but no feats IMO. Manifold can be a problem with BFR but he should get taken out quickly unless I am missing some speed,durability, or TP resistance showings (which is possible as I am only familiar of what Hickmin has shown us).
These are the New 52 versions of the characters and so far besides Martian Manhunter none other of them has shown anything special that looks like it will hurt or stop the Avengers.Martian Manhunter can indeed take out many of the guys but with Captain Universe on the side of the Avenegrs with the Matter Manipulation and Reality also it will be an easy win almost.Dr.Fate can show a good battle but he still hasn't appeared yet in the New 52 and I assume that than this is the last version of him before the New 52 started and he wasn't very impressive.So that leads me to the fact the Avengers get this.
@Esquire: The Avengers don't need 17 characters. They only need Thor, Hulk, Hyperion, Iron Man, Captain Universe and a teleporter. Thor has clobbered Silver Surfer in space so he's not as slow as you think. Look at the Thor vs Superman thread for Thor's speed feats. He's also thousands of years old and as he has travelled extensively he'll almost certainly know of a Martians weakness. Superman and Flash regularly get hit by slower characters, EVERYONE does. Yes DC have a speed edge which is very useful when running away from a fight. Superman and Flash WILL get hit by Mjolnir, one hit and they're both down. The rest are easy pickings. Windows 8 takes care of Cyborg.
DC insist on rebooting characters and changing their power levels because they MUST have the most powerful characters in comics and try to counteract by giving them weaknesses. There's no balance. Flash? Please. All of sudden he has new abilities and can level a planet with one punch, even though WW only used it once, and steal someone else's speed?
@GypRosetti: Nobody on the Avengers has time to hack since there is no prep. Cyborg is a walking hacker. He needs no prep, thus turning Iron Man on his own team. He could easily live through this fight if the "big hitters" are occupied with the other "big hitters" on the JL. Do you think the team is just going to let Cyborg defend himself? No, everyone works together. You make it seem as if Aquaman and Batman can play a better role in this fight than Cyborg can. I mean sure, they all can take out the street levelers, but Cyborg can accomplish that much quicker. Not to mention he could boomtube some of the "big hitters" if given the chance. JL has the speed and magic. The strength is also pretty close. So who do you consider "big hitters" for the Avengers?
@Fallen_Crippled: Hulk, Thor, Hyperion, Iron Man & Captain Universe who can sense things on a sub-atomic level and manipulate matter on an atomic level. The rest of the Avengers are irrelevant to the battle. I don't consider Aquaman or Batman any threat to those I have listed. The main threat is Superman and maybe Flash but Mjolnir takes them out. Captain Universe should be able to negate Dr Fate. Hulk could easily take out the rest by himself.
@TDK_1997: OP said it was Kent Nelson, who was far stronger than the latest Pre-Flashpoint incarnation.
@GypRosetti said:
The Avengers don't need 17 characters. They only need Thor, Hulk, Hyperion, Iron Man, Captain Universe and a teleporter.
That's good, because most of the other characters are going to get defeated almost immediately. Including Manifold, leaving the Avengers with only Thor for a teleporter, and not a particularly good one at that. Cyborg is a far more effective 'porter, and Fate can teleport himself and others, too.
Hulk gets defeated easily by Superman throwing him into space. Superman then beats Iron Man by virtue of far greater strength, speed, and durability.
Hyperion gets mind-controlled by Martian Manhunter, then both of them team up with Wonder Woman to clobber Thor.
Then it's the whole team vs Captain Universe. I don't know of any feats the current one has that would let him solo, but if he does then it's a mismatch.
Thor has clobbered Silver Surfer in space so he's not as slow as you think. Look at the Thor vs Superman thread for Thor's speed feats.
I'm intimately familiar with every one of Thor's reaction feats. He's simply not that fast. Surfer has decent combat speed, but he never uses it in his fights against Thor. The best showing Thor has is a microsecond reaction from 35 years ago. He wasn't able to react to Rhino, for heaven's sake. How does he have a prayer of reacting to Superman-level speed?
He's also thousands of years old and as he has travelled extensively he'll almost certainly know of a Martians weakness.
There are no DC Martians in the Marvel Universe. He literally cannot have encountered one. And there's also no indication that J'onn has a fire weakness post-Flashpoint, anyway.
Superman and Flash regularly get hit by slower characters, EVERYONE does. Yes DC have a speed edge which is very useful when running away from a fight.
Slower than Thor? Name me one. Flash can and does phase through most attacks thrown his way, Superman can tank almost anything the Avenger can dish out, even if he doesn't dodge it with his far superior speed. You're massively underplaying the advantage speed gives. The DC characters can hit much more often and get hit far less often because of their speed. They can also run away effectively, but there's little cause for such action here.
Superman and Flash WILL get hit by Mjolnir, one hit and they're both down.
Again, Thor doesn't think to use Mjolnir as a homing missile when he's in-character. He's been blitzed plenty of times without doing so. And if he can't tag Spider-Man, how can he tag Barry Allen?
The rest are easy pickings.
Before or after Martian Manhunter mindwipes almost everyone on the Marvel team? Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Aquaman, and Dr. Fate are far from pushovers. Most of them are more useful here than new-52 Flash. Dr. Fate and MM are both powerful telepaths, which the Avengers have no answer for. A couple of them have resistance, but most of them don't. Hyperion will be turned on his own team, for example. And Dr. Fate's power and versatility give the DC team a huge edge. He can trap Mjolnir if Thor throws it, for example.
Windows 8 takes care of Cyborg.
Again, why the Cyborg hate? He has plenty of use here. He is also constantly in communication with every computer system on the planet, so he's already assimilated Windows 8.
DC insist on rebooting characters and changing their power levels because they MUST have the most powerful characters in comics and try to counteract by giving them weaknesses. There's no balance. Flash? Please. All of sudden he has new abilities and can level a planet with one punch, even though WW only used it once, and steal someone else's speed?
What does this have to do with the battle? If you're saying that DC is more powerful, then why do you think the Avengers win? And why are you bringing up Wally West? He's not in this battle. He's also used IMP more than once, and speed steal more than once. But that's a debate for a different thread.
@Esquire: Superman has been taken out by an armored, old Batman, Wonder Women and a Cowboy. Comics are full on inconsistencies. When did I say Thor had to physically engage with Superman and Flash? Yes MM could use mind-wipe but once Hulk clobbers him or Thor sets him alight he's done and it's still a weakness unless you can show otherwise :
http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/J'onn_J'onzz_(New_Earth)
Weaknesses
Psychic Pyrophobia: The Martian Manhunter has a psychosomatic fear of fire. It is unknown what the source of this fear is, whether it is a personal fear or a cultural fear, but whichever it is, it is a paralytic fear with the Manhunter. Exposure to fire, causes him to lose his powers, and in the case of extreme fire, to lose his control over his biomorphic form. The Manhunter is more vulnerable in this form and can take damage in this vulnerable state.
BFR is not allowed :
Win by KO/Death/Incapacitation
Manipulating matter on an atomic level means Captain Universe should be able to be negate Dr Fate.
Superman has been taken out by an armored, old Batman,
Non-Canon, and it's also a massively weaker version of Superman. He was also holding back, and Batman would have lost if he hadn't staged a heart attack.
Wonder Women
Not really. The only time she's really been close is when Superman was mind-controlled by Max Lord and thought he was fighting Doomsday. He was still dominating Wonder Woman, and although she was able to slit his throat with her tiara, (which he couldn't anticipate because he thought she was Doomsday), she still had to kill Max in order to keep Superman from winning.
and a Cowboy.
A legitimate loss in a canon encounter? I'd like scans or an issue number, please.
Comics are full on inconsistencies.
Which is why we have to judge characters by way they are most consistently portrayed. Although we take outliers into accounts, the most important feats are those performed in similar situations. Thor has far more, and far more consistent, low showings than Superman does, but yet you still insist that he's a deciding factor, whereas you say Superman is not. How does that make sense?
When did I say Thor had to physically engage with Superman and Flash?
He has no way to prevent them from physically engaging them, since they're both far faster than he is. He can get punched dozens of times before he knows what's happening.
Yes MM could use mind-wipe but once Hulk clobbers him
Hulk has no counter for intangibility.
or Thor sets him alight he's done and it's still a weakness unless you can show otherwise :
If it's pre-52 Manhunter, as per the picture in the OP:
Gallery
Quoting from a wiki is almost totally useless as an argument. There has been no indication, nor any statements, that Martian Manhunter is weak to fire in the New-52, so there is no reason to assume that he is.
BFR is not allowed : Win by KO/Death/Incapacitation
Temporary BFR is, and it's something you've argued for as well. They'll have to eventually retrieve Hulk and then KO him, but he's consistently been taken down by far less than the combined might of the JL.
Before reading i did this for Flash traveling near light speed flash has shown Light speed feats, so this is very applicable.
Some flash Speeds (not top speed)
Speed of thought+running speed.
500,000 people @ chongjin Base a longtime military target
Distance to safe point 35mi (round trip 70 mi)
Carries 1 sometimes 2 people at a time.
Total time per person 2^-11or .000000000001 per person required to run 70 miles.
Movement speed Approaching light speed.
Comparison: wally vs human
person top running speed 27.45 mph (.0007265 mps) so slow :(
light speed (299792458 mps)
Wally is 412559642100 times faster than a human
m=m01−v2c2−−−−−√
Δt′=Δt1−v2c2−−−−−−√
412559642100x Δt'm1->LS 412559642100^5
Impact force = m0/SQr -(V2/E2) 412351566kg mass punch 13915X harder than a FULL power Hit from hulk traveling at 500 MPH backed by 1000LBS and 200 Ton STr
His is also moving at the speed of thought as he has to pick up people and move them safety to the other side of the river requiring concentration levels of 4-5 on the standard 1-7 MUCC
MUCC concentration level used while studying 5-6 1/6th is 1.6666667 appx or 16.667 % leaving 83.3333
412559642100x83.333
343799564100 times faster than human though
1 Flash hour is 343799564100 times more productive than a human hour (Potentially produced work)
m=m01−v2c2−−−−−√
Δt′=Δt1−v2c2−−−−−−√
6,912 languages on earth x2000 hours Time takes to master a new language (approx) 138224000 hours to master all 1Fh=343799564100-138224000=343661340100
books
129,864,880 (books in world) avg book length 100,000 words (250 to 300) words per minute flash 275x343799564100=9.454488e+13 (Flashes PAGES Per minute)
1,2986488e+13 pages in all books
⇒Flash could Read every book, study every language watch ever movie on par FF speed in less than 1 hour!
Anywho, He put Dr. Fate here...classic Fate would solo the entire Marvel lineup here..plus in another story, Fate/ Nebu went toe to toe with Spectre(who would murder everyone on this team Avengers)
So that on top of the JL gives them the W.
Plus, as Esquire already brought up. The Marvel team has no answer for MMH or Fates' telepathy...much less dealing with the rest of the JL won't exactly be easy.
@TDK_1997: I'm no expert, but I can't think of any TP feats to rival Martian Manhunter's, much less J'onn and Fate at the same time. I'm also not sure how powerful the current incarnation of Cap Universe is compared to some of the previous ones.
@TDK_1997: I'm no expert, but I can't think of any TP feats to rival Martian Manhunter's, much less J'onn and Fate at the same time. I'm also not sure how powerful the current incarnation of Cap Universe is compared to some of the previous ones.
That's what is going to happen with the guys that are opposing her.Aleph was barely hurt by Hyperion and Hulk and that's what she did to him.
@Esquire: How is Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns not canon? Speed isn't an issue here either, mind control or no mind control :
I can't find the cowboy scan. Superman and Flash may well hit Thor dozens of times but they won't knock him out. One throw of his hammer puts them down and Flash can't fly so how is he going to hit Thor? That's two of DC's speedsters down for the count. Captain Universe takes care of Dr Fate and MM. So magic is stopped and MM's telepathy is stopped. The fight turns into a straight up slugfest and Hulk alone takes out the rest of the JL easily. If someone has rope they can tie Wonder Women's hands together.
@Esquire: How is Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns not canon? Speed isn't an issue here either, mind control or no mind control :
I can't find the cowboy scan. Superman and Flash may well hit Thor dozens of times but they won't knock him out. One throw of his hammer puts them down and Flash can't fly so how is he going to hit Thor? That's two of DC's speedsters down for the count. Captain Universe takes care of Dr Fate and MM. So magic is stopped and MM's telepathy is stopped. The fight turns into a straight up slugfest and Hulk alone takes out the rest of the JL easily. If someone has rope they can tie Wonder Women's hands together.
Are you serious?The Avengers have Captain Universe who can just wipe out the League.
ok who on the dc side i can put to make this more fair you think or should i take out capt universe
Take out Cap Universe and everything will be fine.
even if dr fate is in now
Kent V isn't that great. He has jack all feats. The Original Kent might make an argument for Cap Universe but not Kent V. The original Kent was a far more adept mystic ( basically classic Strange level), had super strength near superman level without any talismans, was impervious ( also without any talismans), had TK enough to move a planet into a sun, powerful TPer as well. PLus could reality warp and remake the universe when destroyed. Kent V at best beat a Mephisto level character and only by luck.
As for the whole Flash Solo's thing it's only come about since the whole Speed force thing and the multitude of other powers that gives him. The ability to steal someone's speed and make them a statue, the ability to hit with an IMP making his blows even stronger than the most super strong character, the speed force "shield", and speed force constructs crap. Sheer speed alone isn't giving him any solo.
How is Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns not canon?
...Because it's a possible future in an alternate universe?
Speed isn't an issue here either, mind control or no mind control : [Part of Supes vs WW fight]
What is that supposed to prove? That a character with far greater superspeed than Thor has can keep up with Superman who's trying to fight her as if she didn't have that much speed? That Superman is capable of tanking hits from Wonder Woman and breaking her wrist? That Wonder Woman knows she can't beat Superman, only slow him down? I just don't see how that one scan proves that speed isn't an advantage for the DC team.
I can't find the cowboy scan.
Ah. So you haven't actually read the story, only seen a single page floating around on the internet, and you have no idea of the inevitable context involved? Do you see why that's not a convincing argument?
Superman and Flash may well hit Thor dozens of times but they won't knock him out.
Because it's not like Superman has beaten down other characters with superhuman durability. Oh, wait, he has! New-52 Flash might not be able to KO Thor, but he can do some damage, and he could conceivably do a lot of damage with phasing.
One throw of his hammer puts them down and Flash can't fly so how is he going to hit Thor? That's two of DC's speedsters down for the count.
Thor won't try a homing throw in-character. He'll open by flailing his hammer at them, like he has against almost every other character for the past 25 years. Superman has flown far faster than Mjolnir's 2x the speed of light, so it can't really hit him, anyway. Flash has outrun things Superman couldn't, so the hammer shouldn't be able to hit him, anyway. He can also phase through it. Yes, Thor has tagged an intangible Vision, but Vision alters his density. Flash actively moves his molecules so that they don't make contact with the things he phases through. And Thor won't start airborne, so Flash can pummel him before he can react and fly away.
Captain Universe takes care of Dr Fate and MM. So magic is stopped and MM's telepathy is stopped.
Care to explain how? Can you give me any telepathy feats for any incarnation of Captain Universe that can compete with Manhunter's? And Fate also has TP, so that makes things even more fun for Cap. Fate's magic can do a fair bit of damage, too. J'onn won't hesitate to lead with TP in-character, either.
The fight turns into a straight up slugfest and Hulk alone takes out the rest of the JL easily.
Seriously? You think current Hulk can take down Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Aquaman, Cyborg, and Batman at the same time? Wonder Woman or Aquaman could take him solo, probably Hal, too. Cyborg can 'port him away every time he shows up. Hulk could probably take Batman in a random encounter, though.
If someone has rope they can tie Wonder Women's hands together.
You're joking. Please. Wonder Woman hasn't had that weakness since the Golden Age. And even if she did, nobody on the Avengers is fast enough to do that to her.
Are you serious?The Avengers have Captain Universe who can just wipe out the League.
ok who on the dc side i can put to make this more fair you think or should i take out capt universe
Take out Cap Universe and everything will be fine.
even if dr fate is in now
Kent V isn't that great. He has jack all feats. The Original Kent might make an argument for Cap Universe but not Kent V. The original Kent was a far more adept mystic ( basically classic Strange level), had super strength near superman level without any talismans, was impervious ( also without any talismans), had TK enough to move a planet into a sun, powerful TPer as well. PLus could reality warp and remake the universe when destroyed. Kent V at best beat a Mephisto level character and only by luck.
As for the whole Flash Solo's thing it's only come about since the whole Speed force thing and the multitude of other powers that gives him. The ability to steal someone's speed and make them a statue, the ability to hit with an IMP making his blows even stronger than the most super strong character, the speed force "shield", and speed force constructs crap. Sheer speed alone isn't giving him any solo.
thats what i was thinking if this was wally then that would put JL over the top but with barry its 50/50
@Esquire: An alternative Universe? We're talking about comic books here. You have no problem at alternative physics, dimensions and planets but draw the line at the future? Please. Thor flying through Galactus' head suggests he's a lot quicker than you think :
As do his battles with Silver Surfer despite your poor attempts to downplay Silver Surfer's speed. Next you'll tell us Wonder Woman is faster than Silver Suffer and Galactus. Thor has threw his hammer at Hulk he's going to throw it at someone who has a similar strength level when he realises he can't tag Superman and that's IF Superman decides to hit and run. Flash can keep running all he wants. Mjolnir is a magical hammer, it hits it's target. I said nothing about Captain Universe using telepathy. Manipulating matter on an atomic level gives him/her any number of ways to stop MM or Dr Fate.
Seriously? You think current Hulk can take down Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Aquaman, Cyborg, and Batman at the same time? Wonder Woman or Aquaman could take him solo, probably Hal, too. Cyborg can 'port him away every time he shows up. Hulk could probably take Batman in a random encounter, though.
As stated in the opening post BFR isn't allowed. Running from a fight isn't winning a fight, it's running. They may slow him down for a few minutes but as he gets angrier they're boned. Hulk has lifted 150 billion tons, he's held Earth's tectonic plates together so yes he'd easily take them all at the same time.
An alternative Universe? We're talking about comic books here. You have no problem at alternative physics, dimensions and planets but draw the line at the future? Please.
I'm not sure if you've read the Battle Forum Rules, but they clearly state that only canon feats are allowed. The Dark Knight Returns features the Batman and Superman of Pre-Flashpoint Earth-31. The Batman in this battle is Batman and Superman of Post-Flashpoint Earth 1. Their feats are not interchangeable, as per the rules of this forum. This has nothing to do with what I have a problem with, it has to do with the rules. That's not negotiable.
Thor flying through Galactus' head suggests he's a lot quicker than you think :
Because starving Galactus has such fantastic reaction feats, and flying in a straight line shows operational speed. /sarcasm
Thor himself stating that he's slower than Wolverine suggests he's not quite as speedy as you think. As do the scans I've already posted showing Thor's reaction speed, or lack thereof. And there are more where those came from.
As do his battles with Silver Surfer despite your poor attempts to downplay Silver Surfer's speed.
Silver Surfer has 2 nanosecond reaction feats over the course of the 1373 issues he's appeared in, and neither of those are in combat. He never demonstrated near-light combat speed or really anything close. And even if he had shown that he was capable of such a thing, he hasn't used it in any of his fights with Thor. Poor though my attempts may be, I actually know the feats of the characters involved. You can claim that Surfer has excellent combat speed, but you are literally unable to show it.
Next you'll tell us Wonder Woman is faster than Silver Suffer and Galactus.
In travel speed? No. Wonder Woman doesn't have the hyperspace abilities of Surfer. In combat speed? She displays higher operational speed than Surfer does on a regular basis. And Galactus isn't a character known for his reaction time. If you can post some feats of impressive combat speed for Surfer or Galactus, then by all means. But seeing as they don't really exist, at least as far as Surfer is concerned, we'll be waiting a while.
Thor has threw his hammer at Hulk he's going to throw it at someone who has a similar strength level when he realises he can't tag Superman and that's IF Superman decides to hit and run.
Hulk isn't at all an analogue to Superman. Superman is willing to use his speed in-character, and Hulk has no comparable speed. I've posted instances of Thor being unable to react to street-levelers, and he didn't throw his hammer. Why should it be different when Superman blitzes him? (Aside from the fact that a flurry of Superman-level punches will actually KO Thor.)
Flash can keep running all he wants. Mjolnir is a magical hammer, it hits it's target.
Great argument there, chap. "It's magic! It wins!" Right. Flash is faster than Superman who's faster than Mjolnir. It doesn't matter if it's magical, it can't catch Barry. And as I've already explained, Flash can simply phase through it. It could then be used to KO Thor from behind in amusing fashion, since it has the power to do so, (as proven by Hulk in Avengers Assemble), and Thor is capable of being surprised by the mallet when it's flying.
I said nothing about Captain Universe using telepathy. Manipulating matter on an atomic level gives him/her any number of ways to stop MM or Dr Fate.
Martian Manhunter will lead with Telepathy while in-character. Captain Universe doesn't use Molecule Manipulation until provoked. J'onn has a degree of resistance, anyway, since he's in total control of every molecule of his body. So he should have plenty of time to mind-wipe Captain Universe. Even in his New-52 incarnation he was able to mindwipe a universal-level reality warper, so Cap shouldn't be a problem.
As stated in the opening post BFR isn't allowed. Running from a fight isn't winning a fight, it's running. They may slow him down for a few minutes but as he gets angrier they're boned. Hulk has lifted 150 billion tons, he's held Earth's tectonic plates together so yes he'd easily take them all at the same time.
Wonder Woman solos with the Lasso of Truth, since she can use it to make him do her bidding. But even without that, he's been KO'd lots of times in the past. Thor, Namor, Silver Surfer, Thanos, Iron Man, Apocalypse, Havok, Wrecker, just to name a few. And I can post scans if I have to. Hulk is not invincible, despite the supposedly limitless strength thing. Even without Superman and Martian Manhunter, the JL have easily the stopping power to put him down. Especially since he's starting at current levels, not WWH or anything like that.
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