Justice League and Avengers vs Zoom

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Wardemon32

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#52  Edited By Wardemon32

@leo-343 said:

@wardemon32: Zoom beats Wally more often than not. And everyone else won't matter because they'll be statues to a bloodlusted Zoom and Wally as was seen in the past when Superman was a statue to them.

I've never gotten around to Flash: Fastest Man Alive so I don't know if they fought in that series but I'll read it this week. Zoom cannot beat down Wally the same way he did in their first encounter. As I said, if they last long enough then Scarlet Witch may be able to do something.

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@leo-343 said:

@darkraiden said:

@leo-343 said:

@darkraiden said:

Thor, Scarlet Witch, and Sentry could take this. MMH would help. Hulk too.

None of them are fast enough to deal with a normal Zoom, let alone a bloodlusted Zoom.

Yeah they are. More importantly, they're durable enough to last and eventually hit him.

No...no they aren't, The Flash has problems keeping up with Zoom...Thor sometimes has issues tagging street levellers, Scarlet Witch is a glass canon with no reaction feats to say she can react to Zoom, Sentry and Manhunter possibly could he Zoom wasn't bloodlusted, but since he is they really aren't reacting at all and insstead will receive thousands of punches harder than Superman to the face.

This is Wally vs Zoom in disguise.

Don't bother with him. He is a Marvel fanboy/troll who said that Monica Rambeau could defeat the entire Green Lantern Corps by herself and Dr Doom can easily stomp Supergirl,Raven and Miss Martian without prep time on a random encounter.

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Wardemon32

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@leo-343 said:

@wardemon32: Pre-52 versions? Zoom has consistently been portrayed as better than Wally.

Slightly.

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Wardemon32

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@leo-343:

If you're only slightly faster than someone then it can go either way. Esepcailly when that other person has two teams backing him up.

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Wardemon32

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#59  Edited By Wardemon32

@leo-343:

All of the times that Zoom has beaten Wally? Time will eventually pass and the team will realize whats going on.

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Wardemon32

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@leo-343:

He's only really beat Wally once as far as I know. The second one was basically a tie. Wally ended up winning the third. How is that most times?

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DarkRaiden

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@leo-343 said:

@darkraiden said:

@leo-343 said:

@darkraiden said:

Thor, Scarlet Witch, and Sentry could take this. MMH would help. Hulk too.

None of them are fast enough to deal with a normal Zoom, let alone a bloodlusted Zoom.

Yeah they are. More importantly, they're durable enough to last and eventually hit him.

No...no they aren't, The Flash has problems keeping up with Zoom...Thor sometimes has issues tagging street levellers, Scarlet Witch is a glass canon with no reaction feats to say she can react to Zoom, Sentry and Manhunter possibly could he Zoom wasn't bloodlusted, but since he is they really aren't reacting at all and insstead will receive thousands of punches harder than Superman to the face.

This is Wally vs Zoom in disguise.

Don't bother with him. He is a Marvel fanboy/troll who said that Monica Rambeau could defeat the entire Green Lantern Corps by herself and Dr Doom can easily stomp Supergirl,Raven and Miss Martian without prep time on a random encounter.

Monica has, in canon, replicated and drained a GL's ring. She is light and can drain their rings, they can't hurt her physically, how does she not win?

And Doom has beaten and stomped the likes of Surfer, Hulk, Sentry, and Adam Warlock in a random encounter. And telepathy is useless against him, making Raven and Miss Martian non factors.

As for the quoted post,

Thor has hit FTL people, Scarlet Witch has slowed down time and reacted to lightning, Sentry literally can't be killed, and Zoom has NEVER thrown thousands of punches harder than Superman. It's always either thousands of punches or ONE that is stronger than Superman, which isn't even planet busting. And Zoom literally can't dodge Thor conjuring up winds or lightning that covers the planet, and SCW's luck manipulation works wonders.

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MasterKungFu

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comes down to wally vs zoom

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#64  Edited By Wardemon32

@darkraiden:

Thor has hit FTL people, Scarlet Witch has slowed down time and reacted to lightning, Sentry literally can't be killed, and Zoom has NEVER thrown thousands of punches harder than Superman. It's always either thousands of punches or ONE that is stronger than Superman, which isn't even planet busting. And Zoom literally can't dodge Thor conjuring up winds or lightning that covers the planet, and SCW's luck manipulation works wonders.

Even though I don't even think Zoom wins, or atleast gets 5/10 I have to say this is BS. You do realize that Zoom is was faster than lightning right? And I doubt she can slow down time to the extent of Zoom. When Zoom first got his powers he was able to throw hundreds of thousands of punches in less than a second without try to kill Wally nor was be bloodlusted. Those punches were FTL punches.

Just because Sentry can't be killed it doesn't mean he can't be KOd. Thor cannot conjur up anything before Zoom kills him. Just a couple of hits would KO Thor and Scarlet Witch is only using luck manipulation if she is given the time to do so. The only way she has time is if Wally has her live.

Show me Thor hitting a character than can move anywhere near the same speed as Zoom and was moving the same speed and Zoom when he tagged them. Just because he has his someone FTL it doesn't mean that they are on the same level as Zoom. You can be 2x FTL, does that mean you can comapre to someone who is 200x FTL? Hell no it doesn't.

Edit: And you have terrible double standards. You are quick to say that the Rogues are FTL just because they have tagged Flash since Flash could have been moving slower but you're fast to say every other character can tag FTL opponents.

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@sithlantern93 said:

@leo-343 said:

@darkraiden said:

@leo-343 said:

@darkraiden said:

Thor, Scarlet Witch, and Sentry could take this. MMH would help. Hulk too.

None of them are fast enough to deal with a normal Zoom, let alone a bloodlusted Zoom.

Yeah they are. More importantly, they're durable enough to last and eventually hit him.

No...no they aren't, The Flash has problems keeping up with Zoom...Thor sometimes has issues tagging street levellers, Scarlet Witch is a glass canon with no reaction feats to say she can react to Zoom, Sentry and Manhunter possibly could he Zoom wasn't bloodlusted, but since he is they really aren't reacting at all and insstead will receive thousands of punches harder than Superman to the face.

This is Wally vs Zoom in disguise.

Don't bother with him. He is a Marvel fanboy/troll who said that Monica Rambeau could defeat the entire Green Lantern Corps by herself and Dr Doom can easily stomp Supergirl,Raven and Miss Martian without prep time on a random encounter.

Monica has, in canon, replicated and drained a GL's ring. She is light and can drain their rings, they can't hurt her physically, how does she not win?

And Doom has beaten and stomped the likes of Surfer, Hulk, Sentry, and Adam Warlock in a random encounter. And telepathy is useless against him, making Raven and Miss Martian non factors.

As for the quoted post,

Thor has hit FTL people, Scarlet Witch has slowed down time and reacted to lightning, Sentry literally can't be killed, and Zoom has NEVER thrown thousands of punches harder than Superman. It's always either thousands of punches or ONE that is stronger than Superman, which isn't even planet busting. And Zoom literally can't dodge Thor conjuring up winds or lightning that covers the planet, and SCW's luck manipulation works wonders.

And Sentry was beaten by a falling aircraft carrier, Thor during Silver Age barely reacted and was nearly stomped by Cobra (who is nowhere near Zoom), Doom was beaten by a bunch of squirrels, Surfer was put into a full nelson lock by Black Panther and Hulk during WWH event was easily hurt by Wolverine's claws. You ignore these PIS events yet you use PIS scenarios as legitimate facts to support your claim and.... whatever I am talking to a guy who said Monica can beat thousands of Green Lanterns;whose only power is not only light based construct creation and energy projection, write whatever you want.

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@masterkungfu: Don't bother with him. Arguing with him is as logical as arguing with a brick wall.

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Zoom

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Team.

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DarkRaiden

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@darkraiden:

Thor has hit FTL people, Scarlet Witch has slowed down time and reacted to lightning, Sentry literally can't be killed, and Zoom has NEVER thrown thousands of punches harder than Superman. It's always either thousands of punches or ONE that is stronger than Superman, which isn't even planet busting. And Zoom literally can't dodge Thor conjuring up winds or lightning that covers the planet, and SCW's luck manipulation works wonders.

Even though I don't even think Zoom wins, or atleast gets 5/10 I have to say this is BS. You do realize that Zoom is was faster than lightning right? And I doubt she can slow down time to the extent of Zoom. When Zoom first got his powers he was able to throw hundreds of thousands of punches in less than a second without try to kill Wally nor was be bloodlusted. Those punches were FTL punches.

Just because Sentry can't be killed it doesn't mean he can't be KOd. Thor cannot conjur up anything before Zoom kills him. Just a couple of hits would KO Thor and Scarlet Witch is only using luck manipulation if she is given the time to do so. The only way she has time is if Wally has her live.

Show me Thor hitting a character than can move anywhere near the same speed as Zoom and was moving the same speed and Zoom when he tagged them. Just because he has his someone FTL it doesn't mean that they are on the same level as Zoom. You can be 2x FTL, does that mean you can comapre to someone who is 200x FTL? Hell no it doesn't.

Edit: And you have terrible double standards. You are quick to say that the Rogues are FTL just because they have tagged Flash since Flash could have been moving slower but you're fast to say every other character can tag FTL opponents.

Thousands of punches in less than a second is nowhere near FTL. Just saiyan.

Zoom's bloodlusted and thus going for the kill. Everytime Sentry has been killed (when he doesn't want to), he's come back immediately. Thus Zoom can't do much. Zoom can't KO Thor, he couldn't even KO the likes of Wonder Woman, Flash, and GL. Thor has durability far above all of them.

Thor hit Surfer, Surfer moves much faster than Zoom. Fastest Zoom moved was running around the world 12 times in 1 second. Thor also hit similar speed people in Gladiator and Hyperion, all fly MFTL.

Rogues are not FTL. Neither is Thor. But they can both tag FTL people. No double standard.

@darkraiden said:

@sithlantern93 said:

@leo-343 said:

@darkraiden said:

@leo-343 said:

@darkraiden said:

Thor, Scarlet Witch, and Sentry could take this. MMH would help. Hulk too.

None of them are fast enough to deal with a normal Zoom, let alone a bloodlusted Zoom.

Yeah they are. More importantly, they're durable enough to last and eventually hit him.

No...no they aren't, The Flash has problems keeping up with Zoom...Thor sometimes has issues tagging street levellers, Scarlet Witch is a glass canon with no reaction feats to say she can react to Zoom, Sentry and Manhunter possibly could he Zoom wasn't bloodlusted, but since he is they really aren't reacting at all and insstead will receive thousands of punches harder than Superman to the face.

This is Wally vs Zoom in disguise.

Don't bother with him. He is a Marvel fanboy/troll who said that Monica Rambeau could defeat the entire Green Lantern Corps by herself and Dr Doom can easily stomp Supergirl,Raven and Miss Martian without prep time on a random encounter.

Monica has, in canon, replicated and drained a GL's ring. She is light and can drain their rings, they can't hurt her physically, how does she not win?

And Doom has beaten and stomped the likes of Surfer, Hulk, Sentry, and Adam Warlock in a random encounter. And telepathy is useless against him, making Raven and Miss Martian non factors.

As for the quoted post,

Thor has hit FTL people, Scarlet Witch has slowed down time and reacted to lightning, Sentry literally can't be killed, and Zoom has NEVER thrown thousands of punches harder than Superman. It's always either thousands of punches or ONE that is stronger than Superman, which isn't even planet busting. And Zoom literally can't dodge Thor conjuring up winds or lightning that covers the planet, and SCW's luck manipulation works wonders.

And Sentry was beaten by a falling aircraft carrier, Thor during Silver Age barely reacted and was nearly stomped by Cobra (who is nowhere near Zoom), Doom was beaten by a bunch of squirrels, Surfer was put into a full nelson lock by Black Panther and Hulk during WWH event was easily hurt by Wolverine's claws. You ignore these PIS events yet you use PIS scenarios as legitimate facts to support your claim and.... whatever I am talking to a guy who said Monica can beat thousands of Green Lanterns;whose only power is not only light based construct creation and energy projection, write whatever you want.

Thor also had multiple speed feats such as outspeeding Quicksilver, hitting a blitzing Quicksilver, hitting a blitzing Hyperion, hitting a blitzing Surfer, microsecond reaction feats, etc. Those same squirrels beat Thanos and Ego the living planet, so not a bad showing, Wolverine's claws hurt everything and would hurt anyone in this topic, and Surfer literally let Black Panther put him in the full nelson lock. So not only are you using bad PIS events than can all be countered and explained, but you're acting as if these characters don't have far more higher level feats.

Doom beating Surfer multiple times, Sentry once, Hulk, Thor once, Cosmic Hulk, Adam Warlock, being a match for the entire Avengers, schooling Namor multiple times, schooling Iron Man many times, schooling Blaastar, schooling Annihilus, schooling Dr. Strange, beating Magneto, taking over the Earth etc. far outweighs his bad feats. Same with Thors and Surfers and Hulks feats.

And explain how people who use light can beat someone who can literally not be hurt by their light and can drain their rings without a care in the world at lightspeed? Explain it and then you have an argument. Make it good.

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@darkraiden: Easly. Lanterns can transmute her, mind control her, or basically drain her etc. Lol at bringing Thor reacting and out speeding Quicksilver as if he is faster than Zoom lol.

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#72  Edited By DarkRaiden

@darkraiden: Easly. Lanterns can transmute her, mind control her, or basically drain her etc. Lol at bringing Thor reacting and out speeding Quicksilver as if he is faster than Zoom lol.

How can they do any of that when she can drain them and they have to hit her with green light (which she can absorbs) to do say. And Thor's not faster than Zoom nor is QS. It just proves Thor can hit lightspeed people. He doesn't really have issues with it.

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......

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If Wally dies its most likely over

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deactivated-1358091

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@darkraiden: I did not mean Thor being faster than Zoom. I meant Quicksilver since you brought up Thor reacting to him as a counter to prove Thor can react Zoom, which he cannot. Btw, characters who have super speed and operate at lightspeed are not all equal. Superman and Jay Garrick both have those qualities and guess what happened to them when they faced Zoom. She won't have time drain them when she is already something else or her mind is a toilet. Besides Kyle Rayner can create constructs that don't emit light and have them pound her or separate her atoms so forth- Wait this thread is not Monica vs Green Lantern Corp so I am finishing this argument here.

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@wardemon32 said:

@darkraiden:

Thor has hit FTL people, Scarlet Witch has slowed down time and reacted to lightning, Sentry literally can't be killed, and Zoom has NEVER thrown thousands of punches harder than Superman. It's always either thousands of punches or ONE that is stronger than Superman, which isn't even planet busting. And Zoom literally can't dodge Thor conjuring up winds or lightning that covers the planet, and SCW's luck manipulation works wonders.

Even though I don't even think Zoom wins, or atleast gets 5/10 I have to say this is BS. You do realize that Zoom is was faster than lightning right? And I doubt she can slow down time to the extent of Zoom. When Zoom first got his powers he was able to throw hundreds of thousands of punches in less than a second without try to kill Wally nor was be bloodlusted. Those punches were FTL punches.

Just because Sentry can't be killed it doesn't mean he can't be KOd. Thor cannot conjur up anything before Zoom kills him. Just a couple of hits would KO Thor and Scarlet Witch is only using luck manipulation if she is given the time to do so. The only way she has time is if Wally has her live.

Show me Thor hitting a character than can move anywhere near the same speed as Zoom and was moving the same speed and Zoom when he tagged them. Just because he has his someone FTL it doesn't mean that they are on the same level as Zoom. You can be 2x FTL, does that mean you can comapre to someone who is 200x FTL? Hell no it doesn't.

Edit: And you have terrible double standards. You are quick to say that the Rogues are FTL just because they have tagged Flash since Flash could have been moving slower but you're fast to say every other character can tag FTL opponents.

Thousands of punches in less than a second is nowhere near FTL. Just saiyan.

Zoom's bloodlusted and thus going for the kill. Everytime Sentry has been killed (when he doesn't want to), he's come back immediately. Thus Zoom can't do much. Zoom can't KO Thor, he couldn't even KO the likes of Wonder Woman, Flash, and GL. Thor has durability far above all of them.

Thor hit Surfer, Surfer moves much faster than Zoom. Fastest Zoom moved was running around the world 12 times in 1 second. Thor also hit similar speed people in Gladiator and Hyperion, all fly MFTL.

Rogues are not FTL. Neither is Thor. But they can both tag FTL people. No double standard.

@sithlantern93 said:

@darkraiden said:

@sithlantern93 said:

@leo-343 said:

@darkraiden said:

@leo-343 said:

@darkraiden said:

Thor, Scarlet Witch, and Sentry could take this. MMH would help. Hulk too.

None of them are fast enough to deal with a normal Zoom, let alone a bloodlusted Zoom.

Yeah they are. More importantly, they're durable enough to last and eventually hit him.

No...no they aren't, The Flash has problems keeping up with Zoom...Thor sometimes has issues tagging street levellers, Scarlet Witch is a glass canon with no reaction feats to say she can react to Zoom, Sentry and Manhunter possibly could he Zoom wasn't bloodlusted, but since he is they really aren't reacting at all and insstead will receive thousands of punches harder than Superman to the face.

This is Wally vs Zoom in disguise.

Don't bother with him. He is a Marvel fanboy/troll who said that Monica Rambeau could defeat the entire Green Lantern Corps by herself and Dr Doom can easily stomp Supergirl,Raven and Miss Martian without prep time on a random encounter.

Monica has, in canon, replicated and drained a GL's ring. She is light and can drain their rings, they can't hurt her physically, how does she not win?

And Doom has beaten and stomped the likes of Surfer, Hulk, Sentry, and Adam Warlock in a random encounter. And telepathy is useless against him, making Raven and Miss Martian non factors.

As for the quoted post,

Thor has hit FTL people, Scarlet Witch has slowed down time and reacted to lightning, Sentry literally can't be killed, and Zoom has NEVER thrown thousands of punches harder than Superman. It's always either thousands of punches or ONE that is stronger than Superman, which isn't even planet busting. And Zoom literally can't dodge Thor conjuring up winds or lightning that covers the planet, and SCW's luck manipulation works wonders.

And Sentry was beaten by a falling aircraft carrier, Thor during Silver Age barely reacted and was nearly stomped by Cobra (who is nowhere near Zoom), Doom was beaten by a bunch of squirrels, Surfer was put into a full nelson lock by Black Panther and Hulk during WWH event was easily hurt by Wolverine's claws. You ignore these PIS events yet you use PIS scenarios as legitimate facts to support your claim and.... whatever I am talking to a guy who said Monica can beat thousands of Green Lanterns;whose only power is not only light based construct creation and energy projection, write whatever you want.

Thor also had multiple speed feats such as outspeeding Quicksilver, hitting a blitzing Quicksilver, hitting a blitzing Hyperion, hitting a blitzing Surfer, microsecond reaction feats, etc. Those same squirrels beat Thanos and Ego the living planet, so not a bad showing, Wolverine's claws hurt everything and would hurt anyone in this topic, and Surfer literally let Black Panther put him in the full nelson lock. So not only are you using bad PIS events than can all be countered and explained, but you're acting as if these characters don't have far more higher level feats.

Doom beating Surfer multiple times, Sentry once, Hulk, Thor once, Cosmic Hulk, Adam Warlock, being a match for the entire Avengers, schooling Namor multiple times, schooling Iron Man many times, schooling Blaastar, schooling Annihilus, schooling Dr. Strange, beating Magneto, taking over the Earth etc. far outweighs his bad feats. Same with Thors and Surfers and Hulks feats.

And explain how people who use light can beat someone who can literally not be hurt by their light and can drain their rings without a care in the world at lightspeed? Explain it and then you have an argument. Make it good.

And the reason thousand of punches in less than second isn't FTL?

Well, I know that If a guy did a hundred thousand punches in a millisecond then that isn't faster than light.

Why?

Your fist travels about a foot during a punch. Light travels one foot per nanosecond, which is a billionth of second. That means light can travel one billion feet in one second.

To throw light speed punches you would have to throw one billion punches in a second or 1 punch in a billionth of a second(nanosecond).

And Thus, To throw punches which are faster than light you must throw more than one billion punches in one second or 1 punch in less than a billionth of a second(nanosecond).

(P.S.): I just felt like putting the math in plain sight.

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DarkRaiden

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@darkraiden: I did not mean Thor being faster than Zoom. I meant Quicksilver since you brought up Thor reacting to him as a counter to prove Thor can react Zoom, which he cannot. Btw, characters who have super speed and operate at lightspeed are not all equal. Superman and Jay Garrick both have those qualities and guess what happened to them when they faced Zoom. She won't have time drain them when she is already something else or her mind is a toilet. Besides Kyle Rayner can create constructs that don't emit light and have them pound her or separate her atoms so forth- Wait this thread is not Monica vs Green Lantern Corp so I am finishing this argument here.

Zoom has been hit by people slower than Supes and Jay though. And I've never seen a GL create a construct not made out of light but w/e.

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Thor or Odinson?

Mjolnir can make a big difference here... (time manipulation and dimensional travel)

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@darkraiden: Zoom has been hit by people slower than Supes the same way Doom was beaten by Squirrel Girl and Crispus Allen Spectre was beaten Mandrakk II (the who did not possess ridiculous story manipulation powers like the one who fought Thought Robot) who was beaten by the Supermen of multiverse and five nearly powerless Green Lanterns.It is called PIS. Wally could not even see Zoom yet Zoom was tagged by blind Wonder Woman. Kyle created constructs not out of pure light back in 90s, so did Hal Jordan in 60s.

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DarkRaiden

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@darkraiden: Zoom has been hit by people slower than Supes the same way Doom was beaten by Squirrel Girl and Crispus Allen Spectre was beaten Mandrakk II (the who did not possess ridiculous story manipulation powers like the one who fought Thought Robot) who was beaten by the Supermen of multiverse and five nearly powerless Green Lanterns.It is called PIS. Wally could not even see Zoom yet Zoom was tagged by blind Wonder Woman. Kyle created constructs not out of pure light back in 90s, so did Hal Jordan in 60s.

Zoom has been tagged by slower people a number of times. Not just once. But more than he's been too fast for people. Or at least an even amount. Like all Flashes and speedsters, he gets tagged fairly often.

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@darkraiden: He gets tagged for the sake of plot. Wally easily go at attosecond. How would his series sold if his encounter with one of his rogues ended in just panel? In battle threads however, PIS and CIS are usually and should be ignored when we comparing the best feats of the characters.

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#82  Edited By Wardemon32

@darkraiden:

Thousands of punches in less than a second is nowhere near FTL. Just saiyan.

I said hundreds of thousands of punches and that was from a holding back Zoom. Wally has evens tated that he could throw more than one FTL punch but he never needs to throw more than one because the person would either be KOd, dead, or near dead/KOd. Flash was practically bloodlusted in that fight and he usually is in nanoseconds so he was already higher fighting Zoom, especially since he was amped by Jesse Quick. To make matters worse is that Zoom got so fast that the first Zoom couldn't even percieve him.

So Zoom moved so fast that when he first got his powers he couldn't see himself, the same previous Zoom that Wally couldn't even percieve and was traveling around teh world while they were fighting and Wally didn't even notice.

Zoom's bloodlusted and thus going for the kill. Everytime Sentry has been killed (when he doesn't want to), he's come back immediately. Thus Zoom can't do much. Zoom can't KO Thor, he couldn't even KO the likes of Wonder Woman, Flash, and GL. Thor has durability far above all of them.

Just because he can't be killed it does not mean he can't be KOd.

Show me Thor taking thousands of hits that are above Supermans level? Zoom doesn't try to KO anyone. His point is to toy with them. He isn't making anyone a greater hero by KO'ing them. He writes his own story. He's the ultimate villian. He knows he can't lost but basically chooses to.

Thor hit Surfer, Surfer moves much faster than Zoom. Fastest Zoom moved was running around the world 12 times in 1 second. Thor also hit similar speed people in Gladiator and Hyperion, all fly MFTL.

You're phrasing the feat in an incorrect way to make Zoom look slower and you fail to actually think and analyze the feat.

We've already circled the globe a dozen times. We've covered every inch of the world. I've seen dozens of my fellow heroes. But no one can help. This fight...it's only gone on for less than a second. -Wally

Knowing Flash, that fight easily should have been less than a nanosecond. Flash operates in nanosecodns when he is fighting slower people and in this fight his speed was easily doubeled. Flash shown the ability - multile times - to go thousands to millions to the infamous calculated trillions of times faster than the speed of light. Yet, he couldn't see Zoom. When they first fought Zoom to Wally was Wally to humans. They moved so fast that Superman couldn't even see them and he has alrady seen things going at light speed.

You have not shown Thor hitting them while they are moving FTL.

Rogues are not FTL. Neither is Thor. But they can both tag FTL people. No double standard.

Just because they can tag FTL people it does not mean that they can tag someone moving at the speed of light(Well for the Rogues case they can actually tag things going near the speed of light). You have not shown any example whatsoever of Thor hitting someone while they were moving FTL, aware, had the reaction time of Zoom, and were actually fighting Thor.

When the Rogues fought Zoom none of them laid a finger on him.

And Thor couldn't even tag Quicksilver so he had to use an AoE attack. How is he tagging Zoom.

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DarkRaiden

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@darkraiden:

Thousands of punches in less than a second is nowhere near FTL. Just saiyan.

I said hundreds of thousands of punches and that was from a holding back Zoom. Wally has evens tated that he could throw more than one FTL punch but he never needs to throw more than one because the person would either be KOd, dead, or near dead/KOd. Flash was practically bloodlusted in that fight and he usually is in nanoseconds so he was already higher fighting Zoom, especially since he was amped by Jesse Quick. To make matters worse is that Zoom got so fast that the first Zoom couldn't even percieve him.

So Zoom moved so fast that when he first got his powers he couldn't see himself, the same previous Zoom that Wally couldn't even percieve and was traveling around teh world while they were fighting and Wally didn't even notice.

Zoom's bloodlusted and thus going for the kill. Everytime Sentry has been killed (when he doesn't want to), he's come back immediately. Thus Zoom can't do much. Zoom can't KO Thor, he couldn't even KO the likes of Wonder Woman, Flash, and GL. Thor has durability far above all of them.

Just because he can't be killed it does not mean he can't be KOd.

Show me Thor taking thousands of hits that are above Supermans level? Zoom doesn't try to KO anyone. His point is to toy with them. He isn't making anyone a greater hero by KO'ing them. He writes his own story. He's the ultimate villian. He knows he can't lost but basically chooses to.

Thor hit Surfer, Surfer moves much faster than Zoom. Fastest Zoom moved was running around the world 12 times in 1 second. Thor also hit similar speed people in Gladiator and Hyperion, all fly MFTL.

You're phrasing the feat in an incorrect way to make Zoom look slower and you fail to actually think and analyze the feat.

We've already circled the globe a dozen times. We've covered every inch of the world. I've seen dozens of my fellow heroes. But no one can help. This fight...it's only gone on for less than a second. -Wally

Knowing Flash, that fight easily should have been less than a nanosecond. Flash operates in nanosecodns when he is fighting slower people and in this fight his speed was easily doubeled. Flash shown the ability - multile times - to go thousands to millions to the infamous calculated trillions of times faster than the speed of light. Yet, he couldn't see Zoom. When they first fought Zoom to Wally was Wally to humans. They moved so fast that Superman couldn't even see them and he has alrady seen things going at light speed.

You have not shown Thor hitting them while they are moving FTL.

Rogues are not FTL. Neither is Thor. But they can both tag FTL people. No double standard.

Just because they can tag FTL people it does not mean that they can tag someone moving at the speed of light(Well for the Rogues case they can actually tag things going near the speed of light). You have not shown any example whatsoever of Thor hitting someone while they were moving FTL, aware, had the reaction time of Zoom, and were actually fighting Thor.

When the Rogues fought Zoom none of them laid a finger on him.

And Thor couldn't even tag Quicksilver so he had to use an AoE attack. How is he tagging Zoom.

hundreds of thousands does not = speed of light no matter how you flip it.

And again, Zoom will try to kill Sentry. He will likely succeed, and then Sentry will come back. Either that, or since Zoom has 0 feats needed to KO anyone on Sentry or Thor's level, Sentry just rips him apart.

Thor taking thousands of hits above Supermans level? Show me Zoom throwing thousands of hits above Supermans level. I'll wait. You can't.

Circling the globe 12 times in a second is all we can get from that. Anything else is baseless assumption.

Thor tagged them while blitzing. They have no reason not to be blitzing at their fastest speeds. Common sense is common sense.

Thor literally tagged QS. And AoE would tag Zoom. He would tag Zoom via wind (aka everywhere) or lightning that is omndirectional and covering the entire planet. Or just hitting him but w/e.

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w0nd

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@darkraiden: Why in some instances is thor able to hit QS, but in other instances shown NOT to be able to, and also too slow to avoid wolverines attacks...

Thor seems a little off balance....

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DarkRaiden

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@w0nd said:

@darkraiden: Why in some instances is thor able to hit QS, but in other instances shown NOT to be able to, and also too slow to avoid wolverines attacks...

Thor seems a little off balance....

He holds back. Also same reason Superman and Flash can be FTL then struggle to fight Deathstroke.

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Wardemon32

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@darkraiden:

hundreds of thousands does not = speed of light no matter how you flip it.

I didn't flip anything. I'm stating it how it is. If you are able to throw undreds of thousands of punches minimum in nano/pico/atto secodns that that is FTL. When Flash fought Professor Zoom the entire fight lasted just one picosecond and landed an FTL punch. A punch that is thousnads of times faster than the speed of light. That was when he was slower and about 30 issues before he fougth Zoom. When he fought Zoom he had an amp and Zoom first got his powers and barely had control. The second time he fought Zoom he was able to keep up and Zoom was much faster since he actually had more control of it.

And again, Zoom will try to kill Sentry. He will likely succeed, and then Sentry will come back. Either that, or since Zoom has 0 feats needed to KO anyone on Sentry or Thor's level, Sentry just rips him apart.

If Sentry dies then he is out. If you get knocked out in a Boxing match you're not going to say "let me fight. That knock out doesn't count since I woke up" or if you're in a wrestlign match you're not going to get thrown out of the circle and try to get back in and say "that point doesn't count since I was able to get back in". And just because eh can't be killed it does not mean he can't be KOd. Just because he is bloodlusted it does not mean his mission is to kill. In his brain it may be his mission but that isn't the only means of winning.

Zoom was knocking Wally and Jay across multiple countires when he first got his powers and was hitting harder than Superman without even trying. How does he not have any feats to suggest that he can KO Sentry or Thor? You have shown 0 feats suggesting that they can take atleast 50 punches higher than Superman level let alone a million.

Thor taking thousands of hits above Supermans level? Show me Zoom throwing thousands of hits above Supermans level. I'll wait. You can't.

When he fought Flash those hits were on Superman level. Higher actually. They were FTL punches. Flash was going all out since he had to save Linda so it would make no sense for him to not punch as fast as he would. Flash nearly killed on of his Rogues for thinking they touched Linda.

Circling the globe 12 times in a second is all we can get from that. Anything else is baseless assumption.

How is it a baseless assumption if in the text it says "less than a second" and Wally, the man running, says that he covered every inch of the world? You have talked about nothing but baseless assumptions like the characters were moving at FTL while attacking Thor.

Flash operating at high speeds or fighting fast characters uses picosecond speed. He has said this with his own mouth. Just to communicate with fast people he uses nanosecond speed.

Thor tagged them while blitzing. They have no reason not to be blitzing at their fastest speeds. Common sense is common sense.

Oh the irony. So you call me saying Flash is operating at his highest speeds a "baseless assumption" and me trying to flip things yet you saying they have no reason not to be blitzing at their fastest speeds isn't a baseless assumption? I can actually tell you the context any it would make sense WHY they were operating at those speeds. You have shown no context or scans. I've asked you of scans of him doing that and you have showed nothing at all. It seems like you know he can't tag people going that fast but you refuse to say it.

Thor literally tagged QS. And AoE would tag Zoom. He would tag Zoom via wind (aka everywhere) or lightning that is omndirectional and covering the entire planet. Or just hitting him but w/e.

The AoE he did agaisnt Quicksilver is not tagging Zoom. And how is he tagging Zoom with wing when Zoom moves faster than wind? Omnidirectional lightning? Like Zoom has never dodged that before. Zoom is MFTL, how the hell is lightning going to touch him? And is Thor trying to kill his own teammates now also? Thor couldn't even hit Wolverine but he can somehow hit Zoom. Sure.

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TheTrueWallyWest

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#87  Edited By TheTrueWallyWest

Zoom beats everyone, but he can't take Sentry, so Team wins.

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ComicsrulebutDBZdoes2

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Zoom hasnt got the needed abilities to put down sentry tbh

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DarkRaiden

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@darkraiden:

hundreds of thousands does not = speed of light no matter how you flip it.

I didn't flip anything. I'm stating it how it is. If you are able to throw undreds of thousands of punches minimum in nano/pico/atto secodns that that is FTL. When Flash fought Professor Zoom the entire fight lasted just one picosecond and landed an FTL punch. A punch that is thousnads of times faster than the speed of light. That was when he was slower and about 30 issues before he fougth Zoom. When he fought Zoom he had an amp and Zoom first got his powers and barely had control. The second time he fought Zoom he was able to keep up and Zoom was much faster since he actually had more control of it.

And again, Zoom will try to kill Sentry. He will likely succeed, and then Sentry will come back. Either that, or since Zoom has 0 feats needed to KO anyone on Sentry or Thor's level, Sentry just rips him apart.

If Sentry dies then he is out. If you get knocked out in a Boxing match you're not going to say "let me fight. That knock out doesn't count since I woke up" or if you're in a wrestlign match you're not going to get thrown out of the circle and try to get back in and say "that point doesn't count since I was able to get back in". And just because eh can't be killed it does not mean he can't be KOd. Just because he is bloodlusted it does not mean his mission is to kill. In his brain it may be his mission but that isn't the only means of winning.

Zoom was knocking Wally and Jay across multiple countires when he first got his powers and was hitting harder than Superman without even trying. How does he not have any feats to suggest that he can KO Sentry or Thor? You have shown 0 feats suggesting that they can take atleast 50 punches higher than Superman level let alone a million.

Thor taking thousands of hits above Supermans level? Show me Zoom throwing thousands of hits above Supermans level. I'll wait. You can't.

When he fought Flash those hits were on Superman level. Higher actually. They were FTL punches. Flash was going all out since he had to save Linda so it would make no sense for him to not punch as fast as he would. Flash nearly killed on of his Rogues for thinking they touched Linda.

Circling the globe 12 times in a second is all we can get from that. Anything else is baseless assumption.

How is it a baseless assumption if in the text it says "less than a second" and Wally, the man running, says that he covered every inch of the world? You have talked about nothing but baseless assumptions like the characters were moving at FTL while attacking Thor.

Flash operating at high speeds or fighting fast characters uses picosecond speed. He has said this with his own mouth. Just to communicate with fast people he uses nanosecond speed.

Thor tagged them while blitzing. They have no reason not to be blitzing at their fastest speeds. Common sense is common sense.

Oh the irony. So you call me saying Flash is operating at his highest speeds a "baseless assumption" and me trying to flip things yet you saying they have no reason not to be blitzing at their fastest speeds isn't a baseless assumption? I can actually tell you the context any it would make sense WHY they were operating at those speeds. You have shown no context or scans. I've asked you of scans of him doing that and you have showed nothing at all. It seems like you know he can't tag people going that fast but you refuse to say it.

Thor literally tagged QS. And AoE would tag Zoom. He would tag Zoom via wind (aka everywhere) or lightning that is omndirectional and covering the entire planet. Or just hitting him but w/e.

The AoE he did agaisnt Quicksilver is not tagging Zoom. And how is he tagging Zoom with wing when Zoom moves faster than wind? Omnidirectional lightning? Like Zoom has never dodged that before. Zoom is MFTL, how the hell is lightning going to touch him? And is Thor trying to kill his own teammates now also? Thor couldn't even hit Wolverine but he can somehow hit Zoom. Sure.

FTL punches aren't Superman level. I proved that in a different thread. They're not planetary or even close.

Boxing analogy is off since he literally comes back in one second. In boxing, you get 10.

Knocking people through countries isn't Superman level and he never threw thousands.

Thor and Sentry have tanked punches from Hulk, and each other just fine. All of those are above Superman in strength.

Less than a second can mean .99999 of a second. To assume it's nanoseconds is just baseless.

Zoom can't dodge something omnidirectional nor can he be faster than wind that covers everything. Also Thor has hit Wolverine and faster.

And you're saying Zoom's taking everyone out, then Thor doesn't have to worry about his teammates. Alternatively, he could just fly really high and rain weather from the sky. Zoom can't really win this.

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w0nd

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@w0nd said:

@darkraiden: Why in some instances is thor able to hit QS, but in other instances shown NOT to be able to, and also too slow to avoid wolverines attacks...

Thor seems a little off balance....

He holds back. Also same reason Superman and Flash can be FTL then struggle to fight Deathstroke.

Holding back doesn't mean you have to lose. There is no middle ground with him. Either he smites his opponents with his all mighty power...or he's getting beat up. It's like he can't find the area inbetween all this where he can win without snapping his opponents head off.

I like thor and all but he is one of the most confusing characters I come across on battles.

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w0nd

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FTL punches aren't Superman level. I proved that in a different thread. They're not planetary or even close.

Boxing analogy is off since he literally comes back in one second. In boxing, you get 10.

Knocking people through countries isn't Superman level and he never threw thousands.

Thor and Sentry have tanked punches from Hulk, and each other just fine. All of those are above Superman in strength.

Less than a second can mean .99999 of a second. To assume it's nanoseconds is just baseless.

Zoom can't dodge something omnidirectional nor can he be faster than wind that covers everything. Also Thor has hit Wolverine and faster.

And you're saying Zoom's taking everyone out, then Thor doesn't have to worry about his teammates. Alternatively, he could just fly really high and rain weather from the sky. Zoom can't really win this.

DC speed characters are ridiculous this way. Evacuating a city before an explosion is insanity. outrunning instantaneous transportation is another. He could outrun something omnidirectional if thats how fast he was in that story, same with the wind. Or he could seem them all as snails and attack them before they move.

Evactuating an entire city involved nothing moving at all...including the explosion. if a speedster has enough time to do that, then I am sure a team of 10-14 or so people should be no different no? I could be wrong.

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Wardemon32

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@darkraiden:

FTL punches aren't Superman level. I proved that in a different thread. They're not planetary or even close.

I'd love to see you prove it in this thread.

Boxing analogy is off since he literally comes back in one second. In boxing, you get 10.

You haven't shown how long it takes for him to come back from the dead. And in Boxing, depending on the KO, it doesn't matter if you get back up. They still end the round. I could easily use MMA which would be an even better depiction where once you get KOd the fight is done.

Knocking people through countries isn't Superman level and he never threw thousands.

Read the scans. Flash clearly states that for every thousand miles a punch was thrown. Earth is 25,000 miles long. A dozen would be 300,000 punches. Flash said with every punch thrown so if he was talking together then that would be 150,000 punches in atleast a picosecond. And that's a low-ball since he said every inch of the world. This is when Zoom was not bloodlusted therefore he didn't need to throw a whole bunch of punches and when he first started to use his powers. And how often do you see Superman knocking someone across countries. I'll wait.

Thor and Sentry have tanked punches from Hulk, and each other just fine. All of those are above Superman in strength.

All above Superman in strength? Lies. And again, I'll wait for you to show that they can take thousands of punches.

Zoom can't dodge something omnidirectional nor can he be faster than wind that covers everything. Also Thor has hit Wolverine and faster.

What wind does he need to dodge if he travels faster than it? The wind would have to be strong enough to blow back Flash wish is damn near impossible since he's traveling thousands of times the speed of light with wind pushing against him. Hell, he has even tanked winds that caused earthquakes. Wind is doing nothing to Zoom.

Last time I checked Wolverine danced around Thor easily.

And you're saying Zoom's taking everyone out, then Thor doesn't have to worry about his teammates. Alternatively, he could just fly really high and rain weather from the sky. Zoom can't really win this.

What reaction time does Thor have to suggest that he can fly up before Zoom lays hands on him? And you know you don't know what you're talking about when Zoom has hit people who were flying by running up walls and hitting them.

If Zoom attacks Thor first what is he doing? Thor cannot and will not beat Zoom. At all.

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KingVenus

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Team, this is really unfair lmfao.

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DarkRaiden

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@darkraiden:

FTL punches aren't Superman level. I proved that in a different thread. They're not planetary or even close.

I'd love to see you prove it in this thread.

Boxing analogy is off since he literally comes back in one second. In boxing, you get 10.

You haven't shown how long it takes for him to come back from the dead. And in Boxing, depending on the KO, it doesn't matter if you get back up. They still end the round. I could easily use MMA which would be an even better depiction where once you get KOd the fight is done.

Knocking people through countries isn't Superman level and he never threw thousands.

Read the scans. Flash clearly states that for every thousand miles a punch was thrown. Earth is 25,000 miles long. A dozen would be 300,000 punches. Flash said with every punch thrown so if he was talking together then that would be 150,000 punches in atleast a picosecond. And that's a low-ball since he said every inch of the world. This is when Zoom was not bloodlusted therefore he didn't need to throw a whole bunch of punches and when he first started to use his powers. And how often do you see Superman knocking someone across countries. I'll wait.

Thor and Sentry have tanked punches from Hulk, and each other just fine. All of those are above Superman in strength.

All above Superman in strength? Lies. And again, I'll wait for you to show that they can take thousands of punches.

Zoom can't dodge something omnidirectional nor can he be faster than wind that covers everything. Also Thor has hit Wolverine and faster.

What wind does he need to dodge if he travels faster than it? The wind would have to be strong enough to blow back Flash wish is damn near impossible since he's traveling thousands of times the speed of light with wind pushing against him. Hell, he has even tanked winds that caused earthquakes. Wind is doing nothing to Zoom.

Last time I checked Wolverine danced around Thor easily.

And you're saying Zoom's taking everyone out, then Thor doesn't have to worry about his teammates. Alternatively, he could just fly really high and rain weather from the sky. Zoom can't really win this.

What reaction time does Thor have to suggest that he can fly up before Zoom lays hands on him? And you know you don't know what you're talking about when Zoom has hit people who were flying by running up walls and hitting them.

If Zoom attacks Thor first what is he doing? Thor cannot and will not beat Zoom. At all.

I can prove it. You wanna give me an assumed strength for Zoom, or should I use the average of 200lbs?

I don't have to show anything for Sentry. It's common knowledge that against Morgan la fey and Molecule Man he literally came back instantly. As for MMA, the ref gives you time to recover unless completely out cold and even then it's up to the ref.

Flash says a punch for every thousand miles.....so how is 300,000 punches a second lightspeed? And how are they Superman level punches? You need to prove this stuff and stop making assumptions. Superman has thrown planet shaking punches which is far better than knocking people across countries. Also has knocked them into orbit/space and whatnot.

Thor, Sentry, and Hulk have better strength feats than Supes. I'm still waiting for you to show that Zoom can and has ever thrown thousands of Superman level punches.

His wind can hurt skyfathers and blow back stronger people like Hulk and Mangog. Zoom ain't getting past that.

Thor has flown through galaxies near instantly, if he wants to fly, he can. And Zoom can't harm him enough to stop him.

If Zoom attacks Thor first, Thor smacks him with Mjolnir or summons a tornado around him or does some AoE lightning. Or Sentry or w/e takes care of Zoom via molecular manipulation or speed+strength.

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Wardemon32

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@darkraiden:

I can prove it. You wanna give me an assumed strength for Zoom, or should I use the average of 200lbs?

Use whatever you want.

I don't have to show anything for Sentry. It's common knowledge that against Morgan la fey and Molecule Man he literally came back instantly. As for MMA, the ref gives you time to recover unless completely out cold and even then it's up to the ref.

The ref does not give you time to recover in MMA at all. Once you're on the ground and you're KOd and the guy is hitting you, it's done. There's no counting. And I've never seen Sentry come back isntantly. Doesn't change the fact that he can't be KOd.

Flash says a punch for every thousand miles.....so how is 300,000 punches a second lightspeed? And how are they Superman level punches? You need to prove this stuff and stop making assumptions. Superman has thrown planet shaking punches which is far better than knocking people across countries. Also has knocked them into orbit/space and whatnot.

Quote where in that scan where it says a second. Superman's average punches are no where near planet shaking. Zoom snapping his fingers is city shaking yet is punches produce nothing of that sort. So what does that mean? Flash has also knocked people into space. Zoom can replicate the same.

Thor, Sentry, and Hulk have better strength feats than Supes. I'm still waiting for you to show that Zoom can and has ever thrown thousands of Superman level punches.

When he fought Flash.

His wind can hurt skyfathers and blow back stronger people like Hulk and Mangog. Zoom ain't getting past that.

So? That does not change the fact that Flash is faster than wind. Flash runs into winds when runnign at thousands of times the speed of light. Wing. Is. Doing. Nothing.

Thor has flown through galaxies near instantly, if he wants to fly, he can. And Zoom can't harm him enough to stop him.

Prove it. Flash has run to Universes nearly instantly. Zoom>Flash. Faster Zoom after Blitz>Faster Flash after blitz.

If Zoom attacks Thor first, Thor smacks him with Mjolnir or summons a tornado around him or does some AoE lightning. Or Sentry or w/e takes care of Zoom via molecular manipulation or speed+strength.

How the hell is Thor hitting someone moving MFTL? You have shown 0 instances of Thors combat speed to suggest that he can do that. Zoom can run out of the tornado. Zoom has already dodged AoE lightning. Sentry gets KOd like the rest or ends up dead.

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navyfelder

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Why is Zoom so wanked

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Nathaniel_Adam

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Im going with team

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DarkRaiden

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@darkraiden:

I can prove it. You wanna give me an assumed strength for Zoom, or should I use the average of 200lbs?

Use whatever you want.

I don't have to show anything for Sentry. It's common knowledge that against Morgan la fey and Molecule Man he literally came back instantly. As for MMA, the ref gives you time to recover unless completely out cold and even then it's up to the ref.

The ref does not give you time to recover in MMA at all. Once you're on the ground and you're KOd and the guy is hitting you, it's done. There's no counting. And I've never seen Sentry come back isntantly. Doesn't change the fact that he can't be KOd.

Flash says a punch for every thousand miles.....so how is 300,000 punches a second lightspeed? And how are they Superman level punches? You need to prove this stuff and stop making assumptions. Superman has thrown planet shaking punches which is far better than knocking people across countries. Also has knocked them into orbit/space and whatnot.

Quote where in that scan where it says a second. Superman's average punches are no where near planet shaking. Zoom snapping his fingers is city shaking yet is punches produce nothing of that sort. So what does that mean? Flash has also knocked people into space. Zoom can replicate the same.

Thor, Sentry, and Hulk have better strength feats than Supes. I'm still waiting for you to show that Zoom can and has ever thrown thousands of Superman level punches.

When he fought Flash.

His wind can hurt skyfathers and blow back stronger people like Hulk and Mangog. Zoom ain't getting past that.

So? That does not change the fact that Flash is faster than wind. Flash runs into winds when runnign at thousands of times the speed of light. Wing. Is. Doing. Nothing.

Thor has flown through galaxies near instantly, if he wants to fly, he can. And Zoom can't harm him enough to stop him.

Prove it. Flash has run to Universes nearly instantly. Zoom>Flash. Faster Zoom after Blitz>Faster Flash after blitz.

If Zoom attacks Thor first, Thor smacks him with Mjolnir or summons a tornado around him or does some AoE lightning. Or Sentry or w/e takes care of Zoom via molecular manipulation or speed+strength.

How the hell is Thor hitting someone moving MFTL? You have shown 0 instances of Thors combat speed to suggest that he can do that. Zoom can run out of the tornado. Zoom has already dodged AoE lightning. Sentry gets KOd like the rest or ends up dead.

The scan says less than a second. To properly measure anything, you give the only measure of time given ergo a second.

So no showings on Zoom throwing superman punches.

Flash running into wind means nothing. This is active wind that hurts galaxy level durability people. Tornadoes have swept Flash up before. This is that x infinite.

Flash wasn't using close to his Universe speed against Zoom. Pretty clear since they only cleared Earth 12 times in a second. Duh.

You've shown 0 instances of anything Zoom though. Show Zoom dodging AoE lightning. Show Zoom taking down people as durable as Thor and Sentry. You can't. Cause he can't.

Oh and in MMA, the guy gets to punch you for at least a few seconds. Few seconds. Time for Sentry to come back.

Ok, let's say Zoom moved 100x speed of light or w/e give me a better number for running around the world 12 times in a second cause I didn't really care. 1/2mv^2 is the thing for kinetic energy, aka 1/2 220 (kg, which is waaay more than average)*100xspeed of light^2 and I get 9.886306966104994e+22 I think, maybe 10^25, not sure. Either way. Rotation energy of the Earth is 2.1×1029 J. So Zoom can't even rotate the Earth at 100x the speed of light with his punch. Proven, he can't get close to planet busting or moving with his punches.

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