@hellionvulcan: @agentofchaos1: How is Ghost rider overhyped? He may look over hyped to you but thats probally because you don't know the character, which is huge in understanding his power.
R1: Johnny got 1-shotted by WW Hulk, Juggernaut can do the same
@hellionvulcan: @agentofchaos1: How is Ghost rider overhyped? He may look over hyped to you but thats probally because you don't know the character, which is huge in understanding his power.
R1: Johnny got 1-shotted by WW Hulk, Juggernaut can do the same
R2: Zarathos, He's on a whole nother level
I know about Ghost rider as i actually like the character but Round 2 depends on what Cyttorak Juggernaut means because if its demon Juggs or Trion they stomp badly other wise Zarathos will win the majority.
The Vishanti are superior to Mephisto, who is the high lord of the nether realm. Zarathos and Mephisto were generally on the same level but Mephisto tricked him and was able to subjugate him. Zarathos was a big enough threat to Mephisto to warrant this, so its more than acceptable to believe Zarathos can seriously harm Mephisto in a battle. The Vishanti fear none of these beings, they do fear Cyttorak more than anyone else. They literally cower at the name being spoken. Galactus didn't even want to go try to talk to Cyttorak when Cyttorak yanked him and Dr. Strange into the Crimson Cosmos. In fact, Galactus wanted to leave Silver Surfer there and high tail it out asap.
Cyttorak > Huge Gap > Vishanti > Galactus/Mephisto/Zarathos
100% rider Zarathos is not ever going to beat Juggernaut backed by Cyttorak fully.
Rnd1 - GR, tosses Juggernaut around like a rag doll but deals no damage to him. Juggernaut can't ever catch him, isn't as physically strong as him, but will sustain 0 damage from GR.
Rnd2 - Juggernaut. Especially so if its 8th day and such.
@the_human_juggernaut: Why do my posts invoke such butthurt in you? Oh right it's because i showed Juggernaut has been knocked out before, should read more about your favorite character.
GR’s penance stare is totally useless against Jugg due his godly power source.
Round2. Cyttorak curbstomps, simply he outclasses Zarathos
Zarathos is a minor demon bound to Earth, even below Mephisto’s power level, while Cyttorak is an immensely powerful extra-dimensional God or conceptual being who is a threat to Universal and Multiversal scale. There is no point of comparison, even Mephisto dared to say Cyttorak is the closest candidate to be the true Satan or the most powerful of all demonic entities in the Marvel Universe (above Dormammu, Surtur, Marduk Kurios, Shuma Gorath, etc) because he is the most militant.
Cyttorak is saw very close to sit on that throne
Mephisto's sarcasm was shattered when Colossus/Juggernaut (Cyttorak's new avatar in that moment) almost killed the Serpent. No to mention, before that match, Cain could have easily cast out the Serpent's possession if he used the Cyttorak’s power which was inside him, but he chose not to. Simply, the Serpent just was a small entertainment to Cyttorak. Even the narrator stated, "Cain could have used the power of Cyttorak to cast out the possessor, but Cain's will chose not to."
Tom Brevoort, an editor and senior VP of Marvel publishing, someone asked how powerful is Cyttorak compared to Zom and Shuman Gorath, Brevoort replied Cyttorak is an abstract mystic being so “I would place him well above Zom, and likely above Shuma Gorath depending on circumstances”
It is not a coincidence what it was stated by Brevoort is subtly pointed out on the panel comic, above ;)
Cyttorak excommunicated and powered down his traditional avatar the Juggernaut (Cain Marko) also possessed by Kurth the Breaker of Stone, however, Cain keeps some fractions of Cyttorak’s energies within his body.
Cyttorak empowers Colossus as his new Juggernaut avatar, being the only one who was able to stop the Serpent’s avatar (Kurth/Jugg) and was about to kill him. The Serpent was forced to take away his avatar before being killed by Colossusnaught. Cyttorak clearly outmatched and overpowered The Serpent’s power.
Plundering Cyttorak’s energies from Juggernaut, D'Spayre (a mighty Fear Lord) was boosted to a near-omnipotent state, being able to briefly take control the entire fabrics of the Universe (Earth-616). This happened after Cain got out from Cyttorak’s Gem (in X-Men Unlimited #12), after his imprisonment by Onslaught as it pointed out in a reference on the panel. D’Spayre also stated Jugg is a supplier of near-unlimited power.
It was showed how D’Spayre used his new reality warping powers (pointed out on Universal scale) to create demonic hordes, open a gateway to Oblivion, and reduce the Juggernaut into a skeleton at one point until an enraged Juggernaut managed to defeat him. All this was performed with a fraction of Cyttorak's energy plundered from Jugg.
During the Trion Saga, the Trion's dark side possessed the Juggernaut by tapping into Cyttorak's power in order to power up his avatar into universe busting level. Jugg was enabled to physically crush and tear down multiple dimensional barriers by punching them with his physical force, in order to find and kill the powerful Trion Gods (creators of the Triple Evil force). During his rampage, the Juggernaut ripped through the continuum space and time to pass out from one dimension to another, which caused the merger of several dimensions. Moreover, Juggernaut was able to split the very fabric of space-time itself with a fraction of Cyttorak’s energies whose rupture was leading the outer void stage through the unearthly Trion’s universe in which he was. At the end, if Storm had not channeled magical energies from Mojo's realm to heal the unearthly Trion's universe, the entire universe and its inhabitants had been destroyed. This feat confirms and proves once again, that a fraction of Cyttorak's energies not only allow to control the very fabric of universe also could destroy the continuum space of time of a single Universe.
A fraction of Cyttorak’s energies tear a hole right through the very fabric of space-time of Trion Universe, leading its outer void stage.
For those who think Trion’s universe is a “pocket” dimension, in the comic panels clearly is showed is a whole infinite universe where the traditional laws of physics does not apply and are chaotic and impressively unpredictable.
The writer stated: “Is a fact Wolverine could fall forever”, this proves Trion’s dimension is composed by a virtually infinite amount of space. According to OHOTMU a dimension can be called a universe as long as has a virtually infinite amount of space.
Even is stated clearly Trion’s dimension is called as Universe, so the Trion’s dimension definitively is not a pocket dimension, so a fraction of Cyttorak's energies destroyed the very fabric of single universe.
As I’ve explained in Shuma Gorath Vs Cyttorak thread, Cyttorak's energies are so highly destructive that could destroy the very fabric of space-time of a single universe. If a small fraction of Cyttorak's energies could tear hole right through the very fabric of space-time of Trion Universe, leading its outer void stage then a larger amount of Cyttorak's energies could destroy it in one fell swoop.
This proves that fractions of destructive Cyttorak’s energies which can rip off or destroy the very fabric of space and time of Universe, absolutely outclasses Shuma Gorath’s leached energies which can barely destroy galaxies. Sorry Cort, you failed again ;)
According to the original canon written by Stan Lee, Oblivion has shown to be unable to kill Juggernaut by aging him or erase him into the void, confessing that his presence was an annoying infection inside of its void that could not be voided out of existence so he spat him out of his realm in exchange of a fraction of Cyttorak’s powers. For that Oblivion just created an illusion to deceive Juggernaut by making him believe he was aging or dying. Juggernaut was spat from Oblivion's realm and returned to earth. This fact showed that Cyttorak has more influence on the Juggernaut’s existence than Oblivion even inside within Oblivion's own realm, in other words, Cyttorak was negating Oblivion's power to obliterate the Jugg even inside Oblivion's own realm.
Galactus's vessel got trapped into an interdimensional corridor by Cyttorak’s tendrils. Cyttorak’s tendrils captured the cosmic spaceship with Galactus, Silver Surfer, Nova and Doctor Strange on it and they were helpless against him. The tendrils teared through dimensions and trapped the spaceship but Nova’s flaming bursts caught the attention of Cyttorak who decided to free the ship in order to capture Dr. Strange and Nova who were helpless and sucked into Cyttorak’s realm.
Dr. Strange's invoking spells and conjures don't work on Crimson Cosmos, even summoning The Vishanti, because Cyttorak’s powers are limitless within in his own domain so the Principalities could not interfere and help Dr. Strange, who was absolutely helpless and owned (almost killed) by Cyttorak until he managed to bring Jugg in order to break free.
Not to mention Dr. Strange was about to be killed in fast and forceful way by Cyttorak while Nova was easily knocked unconscious (owned as well) by him.
Instead on Agamotto’s dimension (one of Vishanti formers), Dr. Strange was able to invoke Cyttorak and others principalities's spells without any problems in order to gave a good fight against Agamotto in his own realm. While on CC, Dr. Strange was absolutely unable and helpless to fight against Cyttorak (who was in godly mode or lesser destructive aspect) because his mystical arts and spells did not work at all (the Vishanti and other Principalities could not answer to his spells and summons). This clearly proves that magical powers of powerful entities like the Vishanti and others Principalities can not work or are absolutely useless and totally nullified within CC. Dr. Strange has defeated Shuma Gorath three times but was absolutely owned by Cyttorak (considering in one of this battle Strange had all the preparation when he faced Shuma in his own domain, which was supposed to be omnipotent, but was defeated because Strange had the power and willpower to drain, absorb and restrain Arioch and Shuma in order to save the earth even if the cost was the sacrifice of losing his ego).
This proves Cyttorak has limitless power and is truly omnipotent within his own domain but Shuma Gorath did not have limitless power in his own domain because was defeated by a powerful mortal (prep Doc Strange) who cancelled and restrained all his evil magical powers which proves Shuma's leeched energies and powers are finite and is not truly omnipotent in his own domain. Sorry Cort wherever you are.
Example of how Dr. Strange used his spells to fight against Agamotto's own realm.
Given the inability of Dr. Strange to free Eternity, Juggernaut suddenly bounce into Nightmare’s realm by using certain magical skills of Cyttorak’s powers which he learned during his exile in the Crimson Cosmos. Juggernaut by using some spells of Cyttorak’s powers was able to neutralize and mock the powers of Nightmare (who was boosted with the cosmic powers level of Eternity) in his own realm. Jugg had a fraction of Cyttorak’s power to fight against an Eternity powered Nightmare. This feat proves that fractions of Cyttorak magical powers could affect or neutralize the cosmic powers of the Eternity used by Nightmare.
With a mere thought Cyttorak overpowered 1/5 of Phoenix power without any effort. Well, is not impressive since Cyttorak obviously is Omnipotent in his own essence the Crimson Cosmos.
The Vishanti, the Faltine (Dormammu), Raggaddorr, or any other Deity can not effectively use their power against Cyttorak because his presence negates their power as demonstrated during the War of the Seven Spheres.
For example, Cyttorak was negating Seraphim’s powers by cracking the Seraphim’s shield. Cyttorak's hand cracked the Shields of the Serephim.
Cyttorak had the authority to threaten to destroy Watoomb, negating Watoomb’s powers as well. Cyttorak was attacked by Watoomb with no effect at all.
Powerful sorcerers or magic users (Ancient One, Dr. Strange, Mordo) and even powerful extra-dimensional magical beings like Zom, Dormammu and Umar, etc. are semi-worshipers of Cyttorak, ie, in order to use his Crimson Bands and spells, they have to worship him by invoking his name. Not to mention the impressive feats of strenght of Cyttorak outside of his realm where performed via his avatar, the Juggernaut who is a conduit of his powers (let’s check Juggernaut feats: http://www.comicvine.com/juggernaut/4005-1445/forums/juggernaut-respect-thread-22109/#48).
Cyttorak, the rest of the Octessence or Principalities (Balthakk, Farallah, Ikonn, Krakkan, Raggadorr, Valtorr and Watoomb), Dormammu, the Vishanti, Agamotto, Beyonders, Zom, Shuma Gorath, Nebulos, Slorioth, Protégé, Nemesis, Rune, etc. are extradimensional and are originated outside of Eternity's realm (Earth-616 universe an multiverse).
In the novel: X-Men: The Jewels of Cyttorak which although is a non-canon, proves there is one Cyttorak’s Crimson Cosmos which is placed within the Omniverse (outside Etenity’s realms or multiverse) since where he can send his gems into different realities, time streams or alternate timelines.
If these two Cyttorak’s jewelries are together (the ruby and the emerald) the Juggernaut could easily destroy this world.
Cyttorak is portrayed at least to be a Universal wide threat.
About Cyttorak's limitless energies and power have been pointed out by Marvel several times:
^ amazing post, but basically the detailed version of mine and what I've said repeatedly to deaf ears and blind eyes around this forum. Cyttorak made galactus scared stiff and make all three vishanti piss themselves. Cyttorak would eat Mephisto and all the other Hell Lords at the same time and not blink and eye or ripple a tentacle. Lol. Cytty has always been my favorite abstract.
I forgot, here is the conclusive proof about the Crimson Cosmos is a Universe itself, being an outer plane located within the Omniverse. In comic panels clearly is depicted how CC is a whole infinite universe or magical dimension which even encompasses other worlds or realms. According to OHOTMU a dimension can be called a universe as long as has a virtually infinite amount of space and if is ordered in an integrated whole is called Cosmos, so the Cyttorak's Crimson Cosmos is proved to fit perfectly in this definition.Cyttorak is the God of a Universe, an entire Cosmos which encompasses other planes. This explains why Cyttorak is a limitless source of magic power.
Even is stated clearly Cyttorak’s dimension or CC is called as Universe, so the Crimson Cosmos definitively is not a pocket dimension. ^_^
Kenshiroo, your Cyttorak fan-wanking level is over 9,000.
Besides a lot of out of context scans.
Also, I don't think that just invoking the name of the principalities is enough to call all of their power......Otherwise the ''Sons of Satannish'' and other groups wouldn't' get stomped by Strange so many times.
GR's powers shouldn't work on Cain because Cytorrak gives him the powers, and he's stronger than GR. now, whether or not he's stronger than Zarathos, who I think gives Johnny his powers, i don't know.
Kenshiroo, your Cyttorak fan-wanking level is over 9,000.
Besides a lot of out of context scans.
Also, I don't think that just invoking the name of the principalities is enough to call all of their power......Otherwise the ''Sons of Satannish'' and other groups wouldn't' get stomped by Strange so many times.
Yea...
Also, that Journey Into Mystery scan being used as evidence of power rankings is really...off.
We're supposed to believe that Blackheart, a guy who has trouble with Wolverine and Daredevil, the offspring of a mere hell lord, is more powerful than the likes of Dormammu and Shuma-Gorath? lol ok.
Also, that Journey Into Mystery scan being used as evidence of power rankings is really...off.
We're supposed to believe that Blackheart, a guy who has trouble with Wolverine and Daredevil, the offspring of a mere hell lord, is more powerful than the likes of Dormammu and Shuma-Gorath? lol ok.
I always laugh when they use the Devil's Advocacy as one supposed proof for Cyttorak's power.
Yeah, Blackheart had trouble with Wolverine and Punisher...... Two different times.
Kenshiroo, your Cyttorak fan-wanking level is over 9,000.
Disqualify do not help you to put a reasonable point to debate
The Vishanti are clearly superior to Cyttorak, don't know where you get Cyttorak > Vishanti from.
The Vishanti were afraid of Cyttorak, warning Doctor Strange not to mess with his creations. One example was showed when Dr. Strange did not receive a positive response for aid or assistance of their part, not even a whisper when he invoked the Vishanti within Cyttorak’s Crimson Cosmos. The Vishanti could not do nothing to help him and left him absolutely helpless, being owned by Cyttorak while Dr. Strange was able to invoke incantations or spells in the name of Cyttorak and other Principalities within Agamotto’s realm with no problem.
Dr. Strange was absolutely helpless on CC and was owned by Cyttorak
By the way, if you go with the wrongly interpretation about Jugg teleported by Strange into CC to release him briefly and then he appears seemingly defeating Cyttorak because "supposedly knocked him out" when he ripped out his gem from his head, let me tell you all was a hoax scenery induced by Cyttorak since Cyttorak was aware of Juggernaut presence all the time on CC, he allowed himself "being defeated" (between quotation marks) by his avatar as a way to measure the sincerity and loyalty of his worshipers: Doc. Strange and Nova, he had already weakened Jugg's powers (therefore he could not be able to kill Doc. Strange with his punches) and left Nova break their bands in order to aid Strange.
Doc Strange and the same Cyttorak said the entire Crimson Cosmos represents his very essence himself, he just only created the appearance of humanoid form of his godlike aspect to communicate with lesser beings, so in this way he also said that Juggernaut was a fool because he was deceived by an image created by Cyttorak that never represented his truly form. Not to mention he said the Gem was just a decoration of such humanoid image that never gave more powers to Juggernaut. Cyttorak just was entertaining with them.
Strange was always very humble and fearful of Cyttorak but has not been the same case with Agamotto who was very disrespected several times by him. Dr. Strange has fought with Agamotto and even has fooled and extorted to him in order to stop him in his own realm.
Strange couldn't even harm Agamotto alone when he invoked powers from the entire Octessence in addition to Dormammu.
Strange could harm Agamotto, in fact, even invoking the spells of Cyttorak with other Principalities he could destroy one of the many aspects of Agamotto (caterpillar form) as it was showed on panel below. However, obviously Dr. Strange can not defeat Agamotto in his own realm (Agamotto will be reformed himself always in whatever he wants) but at least he caused a pain in his ass for a while, although Agamotto was pretending to say he was toying with him, until finally Dr. Strange fooled and extorted him to accept his deal.
Strange did extort Agamotto and threatened him to break his pipe while one of the multiverse's most powerful denizens (member of Vishanti) had to accept the deal. If Agamotto truly was omnipotent might have been able to take the pipe from Strange or negate his mystical aura on it with a thought but he could not do it and had to surrender to the request of Strange. Also Agamotto confessed not being able to repair his own pipe if Strange had destroyed it. This clearly demonstrates that even Agamotto is not even truly omnipotent in his own realm while Cyttorak is omnipotent in his domain.
Also couldn't do anything to Agamotto when invoking Cyttorak's Crimson Bands along with the Rings of Raggador. Agamotto alone > Cyttorak.
Dr. Strange never used Cyttorak bands to attack Agamotto this time. He just used them to grab the talismans and escape until Agamotto increased the orb to engulf him within it. This proves nothing.
Otherwise, magic users can summon some mystic Principalities spell but their magic intensity and effectiveness depends on what level of concentration are their wielders in that moment. This is the reason because the Cyttorak band’s strength is sometimes affected by their wielder's power and skill; additionally, if the wielder is trying to protect the target from mystic injury, the force of the target’s resistance may be reflected back upon the wielder. Hulk and Namor have each broken the Crimson Bands only under such circumstances.
This even was said by Marvel Cyttorak’s Bio, from OHOTMU
In such examples we see how the resistances of Cyttorak's bands were weakened when Strange in his astral form lost his concentration and almost all his spiritual strength after being violently expelled from Namor’s mind who was dominated by an uncontrollable homicidal rage.Dr. Strange barely had the strength to return to his body.
By protecting Namor’s mind in his astral form, Dr Strange was hurled back and his target’s resistance was reflected back upon him as well due he lost concentration and strength, so Namor could break the Crimson Bands only under that circumstance.
Cyttorak bands are absolutely indestructible. Even Dr. Strange stated Cyttorak’s mystical bands are completely indestructible because they are composed of the same strands of energy that hold the Universe and no physical force in the world should even come close to rattling them (like the Hulk for example).
This reinforces that someone who could steal Cyttorak’s energies can control the very fabric of the Universe or destroy it if that the case, as when happened with D'Spayre who plundered a fraction of Cyttorak’s energies from Jugg in order to briefly take control over the Universe and warp it or when another fraction was released from Juggenaut’s body within Trion’s universe and tore an immeasurable hole right into the fabric of space and time which started a void that almost destroyed their whole universe.
Returning to the explanation about how the Crimson band's resistance would be affected according to the level of concentration of the magic user. The same thing happened with Hulk, Strange was not using all his mystical power and spiritual energy to put a strong effect on Cyttorak’s bands because much of it was used to keep his concentration on his astral form, call the mystical effects of Agamotto’s eye over the Fantastic Four and still hold the Hulk for a while at the same time. Therefore, his Cyttorak’s bands spells were not strong enough to hold him up, so the mystical force over the Hulk’s resistance was reflected back upon Dr. Strange because his attention was dispersed to protect him from the Fantastic Four and the attack of the Human Torch, so then, Hulk just broke the bands only under that circumstance.
Quite contrary, Dr. Strange without using his astral form (which consumes much of his mystical energy) and completely focused on his target was able to summon the Cyttorak’s crimson bands to fully immobilize or entrap the savage Hulk. In normal conditions, Dr. Strange can invoke the crimson bands with normal resistance so it showed how Cyttorak's bands are totally indestructible, unaffected or unbreakable against the brute force of Savage Hulk punches, who was locked on or entrapped into a Cyttorak’s bands sphere, three times.
Only if the concentration of the magic user is affected the enchantment disappears (as it was explained before), in this case Hulk can not break the crimson bands with his punches but can maneuver inside the sphere by jumping off which caused the loss of concentration of Dr. Strange and therefore, the dissolution of his crimson bands incantations.
Another prove about Cyttorak’s bands are completely unbreakable against savage Hulk’s strength or punches.
Dr. Strange releases briefly Hulk but then he encloses him again and then he finally releases him for his aid at the right time.
So in this way Hulk was absolutely owned by Cyttorak’s unbreakable bands summoned by a magic user. Is not a surprise since the Juggernaut proved to be stronger than Hulk several times.
Also, I don't think that just invoking the name of the principalities is enough to call all of their power......Otherwise the ''Sons of Satannish'' and other groups wouldn't' get stomped by Strange so many times.
Ecocentric, Exocentric and Necromantic magic are only three most powerful principal forms to use magic just by invoking or conjuring spells in a supplicant way by using the entity’s name in a rhythmic or rhymed incantation. Only Egocentric magic is used when the magic users take into their own spiritual energies the ability to manipulate their own mystical energies, such as: astral projection, hypnosis, mental domination and telepathy.
Exocentric is the most advanced form of magic that draws upon forces from dimensions outside our own. Only very experienced sorcerers are able to communicate with powerful mystical beings that inhabit these “other dimensions” and appeal to them for assistance or aid.
In your example, the Sons of Sattanish called up Sattanish for additional power in order to kill Dr. Strange, so in this way (Exocentric magic) they could summon the Rings of Negativistic or Nihilistic force to assault him, but Dr. Strange's counter-spells did dispell or negate such rings by invoking the seven bands of Cyttorak and the dark-souled demons of Denak. Even one of Satannish’s power items, the Satan-Sphere, was destroyed by such incantations (although it was subsequently repaired by them).
Also, that Journey Into Mystery scan being used as evidence of power rankings is really...off.
We're supposed to believe that Blackheart, a guy who has trouble with Wolverine and Daredevil, the offspring of a mere hell lord, is more powerful than the likes of Dormammu and Shuma-Gorath? lol ok
I ask you in what scan appears what you said, because in Journey into Mystery#627 such thing was not mentioned.
I always laugh when they use the Devil's Advocacy as one supposed proof for Cyttorak's power.
As any Mephisto’s sarcasm there is a hidden intention of praising the truth so he dared to say that Cyttorak is the closest candidate to be the true Satan above all of them.
Come on sweetheart, why you don’t send me a sweet kiss and tell me what scans are out of context please?
How about I punch your face instead? And don't call me sweetheart.
Do you really want to know what scans are out of context? First of, your so beloved scan from Journey into Mystery#627 has a problem:
It was never mentioned Blackheart being above Shuma?.....Well, you can see who is closer to the throne, in fact, I find hilarious that you're trying to argue Cyttorak's position while ignoring all the others since we have Mephisto above Dormammu, Blackheart above Shuma and some even worse. I doubt it relates to power, so why you mentioned this is beyond me.
You also love to mention Doctor Strange#182, don't you? Saying that Juggernaut defeated Nightmare with Eternity's powers, but I never saw you posting this pages:
Gallery
There's much more things and scans out of context in your post, but was in regards to Zorn( It's not my debate).
I won't quote an entire unnecessary text about the Sons of Satannish as I'm almost sure you missed the entire point.....You even reinforced my own. Heck, three members themselves admitted they weren't powerful enough against Strange:
A much better example is when Charles Benton absorbed the powers from the other members:
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He was still struggling against Stephen:
Gallery
However Satannish gave him more power later and Strange got defeated with just a gesture:
@xiix: I just re-read the issues and one of them was during Juggernaut#Vol.2
They fought inside of Cain's mind:
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Another was during X-Men Unlimited#12.
Cain was more powerful than normal and Cyttorak was weakened, but this happened inside of the Crimson Cosmos( Where they claim Cyttorak possess omnipotence):
Gallery
And Cain also defeated another Juggernaut with Cyttorak's powers during Excalibur#15:
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