• 80 results
  • 1
  • 2
#51 Posted by GhostRavage (9434 posts) - - Show Bio
#52 Edited by dondave (38891 posts) - - Show Bio

Stalemate

#53 Posted by comic_book_fan (5934 posts) - - Show Bio

colossus goes down first leaving hulk to fight ben and juggernaut.

Online
#54 Posted by Pope052 (3454 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2.

#55 Edited by RisingBean (4718 posts) - - Show Bio

Juggernaut and Thing. I'm assuming it's classic Juggernaut and Colossus.

Hulk and Colossus have no way to put down Juggy.

@carter_esque said:

@god_spawn:

This ain't fan art...

This fight needs a bit of context. A few issues before it, in Incredible Hulk # 402 Juggernaut beat Hulk unconscious and the Hulk was brainwashed to be a bad guy. That page is just as he was coming out of the brainwashing in #404. He hit Juggernaut those two times and then a psychic backlash caused by Hulk breaking Mentallo's link knocked everybody at the scene out, minus Hulk and the Vision. Had there been no psychic link, or somebody to effect him mentally (I don't know if Sersi can, but she was the only possibility) the only way to have beat Cain would have been with BFR.

Edit: Damnit. I started typing before reading the whole thread. I didn't realize @raynorj ninja'ed me. just take what I've written anyway to corroborate.

#56 Edited by RisingBean (4718 posts) - - Show Bio

And scans for backup! From the battle in Hulk issue #402, the final stretch of that fight.

#57 Posted by RaynorJ (1498 posts) - - Show Bio

@risingbean: You should also add to the fact that the Hulk didn't know who he was fighting there and that he was not trying to hurt him and holding back while constantly asking him who he is? As Hulk thought he was just a ordinary construction worker. By the time Hulk started realizing who that was it was already too late.

#58 Posted by RisingBean (4718 posts) - - Show Bio

@raynorj: Sure, but lets be real. That was some CIS. Hulk should realize anybody strong enough to wrap their hand around his throat and drag him into the bushes isn't some "ordinary construction worker." Hulk had a number of pages worth of fight before he got put in that headlock and punched into dream land. I can buy him not realizing it's Cain, but to not realize the guy is superpowered is downright ludicrous.

#59 Posted by RaynorJ (1498 posts) - - Show Bio

@risingbean: You could say it's CIS but it's Hulk getting affected by CIS so he held back and didn't want to hurt the guy. In the end it's still the overall weakest version of Hulk.

#60 Posted by RisingBean (4718 posts) - - Show Bio

@raynorj: I disagree. The weakest Hulk was the Prof version that turned to Banner with savage mindset. Weak and stupid.

Still doesn't change the fact that Juggernaut should be the last man standing in this battle. Even if Hulk went all out, the best he can hope for is a BFR.

#61 Posted by MarlboroMan (1790 posts) - - Show Bio

Hulk > Juggernaut

Colossus =/> Thing

#62 Edited by RaynorJ (1498 posts) - - Show Bio

@risingbean: Well obviously but that's not really the Hulk that's banners body with Hulks mindset.

If Hulk was elevated to that level of anger than there is nothing the Juggernaut could do to defeat him, so it would be a stalemate or possibly even a win for the Hulk since he has been known to do the impossible like recently he punched through a time barrier and the Juggernaut is not invincible. There is no BFR in this thread.

#63 Edited by RisingBean (4718 posts) - - Show Bio

@raynorj: Well if we go to ridiculous levels, I believe Juggernaut has also punched holes in reality.

For a more accurate gauge lets look at their fights in canon.

Hulk removes helmet, Prof X happens to be in the neighborhood. Finishes off Cain.

Cain beats Hulk unconscious.

Hulk removes helmet. Phychic backlast finishes Cain.

Hulk is amped on Celestial Tech. I believe he more or less smashes that time. I haven't read it.

Hulk takes on a depowered Cain during the WW Hulk arc. Cain is bfr'ed.

Those are the matchups I know of. And in none of them does Hulk win with his powerset. Cain was either taken out via mentally via third party or BFR'ed for a bit. The one possible exception to that is when Hulk had Celestial Tech.

Standard Hulk is not KO'ing or killing Cain. Cain however can and has knocked the Hulk out. Granted this was a weaker version. This either turns into a stalemate or a win for the unstoppable Juggernaut.

#64 Posted by RaynorJ (1498 posts) - - Show Bio

@risingbean: That was trion juggernaut amped up by an outside force that isn't even Cytorak.

During the WWH, Hulk fought Cain 2 times the first time he KO'd him the second time he BFR him. So yea Hulk did win with his powerset but Hulk never fought Juggernaut with his full powerset and isn't it kinda ironic considering the vast majority of Juggernauts strength is not his own power set either?

I don't see Juggernaut beating an enraged Hulk not after seeing his pathetic display against the physical form of Onslaught who Hulk later on defeated.

#65 Posted by RisingBean (4718 posts) - - Show Bio

@raynorj: Que me in. How did Hulk pull it off? If it was by sheer strength then I need to say that feat is as broken as some Silver Age Superman wackiness. Also, I'd say it's likely a one off and not something that one would expect to see. It still also has little bearing on the fight because BFR isn't possible.

Scans for the KO during WWH? I didn't see that fight.

As per Juggernauts powers not being in his powerset, I guess it depends on how you look at it. If you mean that he needs to be empowered by Cytorak, No it's not ironic. It's been like that from day one. If you mean, Trion, I suppose. But without PIS he doesn't need anything beyond his classic power set. He's supposed to be invulnerable and unstoppable. 99% of people can't deal with that.

And Onslaught was made up of Professor X and Magneto. All of the jobbing I recall Juggernaut doing was because a morals off Prof X was able to mindscrew him. It even seems like he able to get around the helmet somehow. Also Hulk didn't defeat Onslaught. He broke his physical shell, and it took all the "Heroes Reborn" characters who let into and absorbed his energy to beat him. Hulk was broken into Hulk and Banner at the end of that confrontation, Banner leaping into Onslaught's energy form with Cap, Thor, The FF and the rest. And the Hulk was dying on account of that.

So what we can gather from that fight?

1. Hulk without Jean wouldn't have been any match.

2. Even with Banner repressed, Hulk could only beat Onslaught on a physical level, not an energy one

3. Hulk was down after taking out Onslaughts shell, and without the aid of the other heroes wouldn't have lived

4. Had Franklin Richards not made it possible for the heroes to be reborn...live on, Hulk would have died eventually anyhow.

#66 Edited by RaynorJ (1498 posts) - - Show Bio

@risingbean: He was holding chrono metal at the time which made the time stream tangible and it was one of his strongest punches as even Banner narrates it. You do realize that half the things(if not more) that happen in Marvel that include powerhouses and generally anyone that uses magic is just broken and wacky on the level of cartoons sometimes? I mean as you mentioned Juggernaut punched a hole in a reality that is pretty silly.

But he is neither invulnerable nor unstoppable, there are beings far more powerful than him and even Cytorak that can do whatever they please to him.

Onslaught punched Juggernaut across the entire country and he had his helmet on, so yea he bit the crap out of him physically. Hulk defeated the physical form of Onslaught that neither the Juggernaut nor the other marvel heroes together could defeat. Onslaught mental form is unaffected by physical attacks so of course he can't beat that form but he did defeat the physical form.

I also don't know what Hulk dying from being sepperated from Banner has anything to do with the fact that he beat the physical form of Onslaught.

1. Jean turned off Banners influence over the Hulk as Hulk calls it(his control side because Banner is always holding Hulks true strength back). So he doesn't need her for that, because Banner and Hulk have worked together where Banner is not holding him back.

2. His energy form can not be affected by physical ways, Onslaught even states so himself and the heroes knew it so they beat him in a different way. The fact still stands that only Hulk managed to destroy his physical form, no one else, not even Thor.

3. Which has nothing to do with the fact that he defeated the physical form of Onslaught when Juggernaut couldn't and was in fact was pissing his pants. And the reason the Hulk was done because he literally punched the reality out of him and separated himself from Banner in the process.

4. Yes, but what does that have to with anything?

#67 Edited by dum529001 (1658 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghostravage said:

@god_spawn: Hulk was pulling his hits against pretty much everybody, his fight against Depowered Cain doesn't mean it's going to end in a stalemate... They were pretty even after he powered up as well. Not to mention, Strong Guy proved Hulk was indeed pulling his hits greatly.

It would mean a stalemate because of Juggs powerset, not because that instance in particular.

Doesn't Cytorrak have a whole universe to house his power? A universe known as the Crimson Cosmos?

Doesn't Cyclps draw his power from Cytorrak's crimson cosmos?

#68 Posted by God_Spawn (38301 posts) - - Show Bio

@dum529001: Yes, Cyttorak has an entire dimension to his power.

No, Cyclops does not draw his power from the Crimson Cosmos.

Moderator
#69 Posted by dum529001 (1658 posts) - - Show Bio

@dum529001: Yes, Cyttorak has an entire dimension to his power.

No, Cyclops does not draw his power from the Crimson Cosmos.


You sure about that? I'm talking about Cyclops. i may be recalling it wrong but think saw that somewhere.

Either way, i can just look it up.

#70 Posted by dum529001 (1658 posts) - - Show Bio

@raynorj said:

@risingbean: He was holding chrono metal at the time which made the time stream tangible and it was one of his strongest punches as even Banner narrates it. You do realize that half the things(if not more) that happen in Marvel that include powerhouses and generally anyone that uses magic is just broken and wacky on the level of cartoons sometimes? I mean as you mentioned Juggernaut punched a hole in a reality that is pretty silly.

But he is neither invulnerable nor unstoppable, there are beings far more powerful than him and even Cytorak that can do whatever they please to him.

Onslaught punched Juggernaut across the entire country and he had his helmet on, so yea he bit the crap out of him physically. Hulk defeated the physical form of Onslaught that neither the Juggernaut nor the other marvel heroes together could defeat. Onslaught mental form is unaffected by physical attacks so of course he can't beat that form but he did defeat the physical form.

I also don't know what Hulk dying from being sepperated from Banner has anything to do with the fact that he beat the physical form of Onslaught.

1. Jean turned off Banners influence over the Hulk as Hulk calls it(his control side because Banner is always holding Hulks true strength back). So he doesn't need her for that, because Banner and Hulk have worked together where Banner is not holding him back.

2. His energy form can not be affected by physical ways, Onslaught even states so himself and the heroes knew it so they beat him in a different way. The fact still stands that only Hulk managed to destroy his physical form, no one else, not even Thor.

3. Which has nothing to do with the fact that he defeated the physical form of Onslaught when Juggernaut couldn't and was in fact was pissing his pants. And the reason the Hulk was done because he literally punched the reality out of him and separated himself from Banner in the process.

4. Yes, but what does that have to with anything?

Every time Hulk and Banner seperate it seems like one or both of them are dying but then all of a sudden they are okay. Its weird.

#71 Posted by xxxddd (3593 posts) - - Show Bio

What happens when you put an unstoppable force vs an unmovable object? a stalemate, I don't see much debating room here.

LOL.

#72 Edited by RisingBean (4718 posts) - - Show Bio

@raynorj: Juggernaut at least has magic to back him up. Hulk breaking the timestream outside of specific circumstances with specific equipment would be a joke. If he had a way to make the time stream tangible, I can get behind that. But to break an intangible would have me face palming. As per that Hulk arc, I hear it's good. Once it's in trade I'll likely pick it up. I do agree that often it seems like the feat pissing contest gets taken too far. As per this battle thread, I think we can agree Hulk nor Cain will be breaking time, or reality.

Edit: Wow. Lost like three paragraphs of work. I'm gonna take a day off. I may try to type it all out again later.

#73 Posted by BladeNB (187 posts) - - Show Bio

Hulk and Colossus
Juggs has beaten Hulk before so I'm sure he can beat Colossus. But Thing is the weak link seeing as he can't even beat anyone on team 2.

#74 Posted by God_Spawn (38301 posts) - - Show Bio

@dum529001: I am sure because if there is one character I know it is cyclops. His beams come a different non einstein universe but not the crimson cosmos.

Moderator
#75 Posted by The_Titan_Lord (7039 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 maybe.

#76 Posted by THEMARD2 (29 posts) - - Show Bio

So neither colossus nor the thing would be of any help in this situation is what everyone is saying?

#77 Posted by thestarguy (368 posts) - - Show Bio

@themard2 said:

So neither colossus nor the thing would be of any help in this situation is what everyone is saying?

I don't think anyone said that at all. It is just that many people seem to be focusing only on Jugs and the Hulk, and overlooking what both Ben and Colossus bring to the table. Both Ben and Colossus are smart experienced fighters who bring strategy, tactics and skills to the table. And since both of them are far more used to working in a teamwork situation than either Hulk or Juggernaut that also counts for something as well. In some ways this match might even be considered another "Thing vs Colossus" battle, since many here seem to feel that Hulk vs Juggernaut is pretty evenly matched.

#78 Edited by thestarguy (368 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyway. my vote is that this favors Team 1 (Juggernaut & Thing) because both members of Team 2 have a fatal weakness in that , under the proper conditions, both of them can be turned back into their human forms. If that happens they can both be killed by a single blow from either member of Team 1. Colossus reverts to human form whenever he loses consciousness, so it is very likely that Hulk will end up fighting both Jugs and the Thing together. And I feel that Juggernaut can decisively defeat the Hulk if he has help from someone as experienced and savvy as the Thing, who has fought Hulk numerous times before.

#79 Posted by dum529001 (1658 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyway. my vote is that this favors Team 1 (Juggernaut & Thing) because both members of Team 2 have a fatal weakness in that , under the proper conditions, both of them can be turned back into their human forms. If that happens they can both be killed by a single blow from either member of Team 1. Colossus reverts to human form whenever he loses consciousness, so it is very likely that Hulk will end up fighting both Jugs and the Thing together. And I feel that Juggernaut can decisively defeat the Hulk if he has help from someone as experienced and savvy as the Thing, who has fought Hulk numerous times before.

Smacking Banner in human form with deadly force is just going make him transform into the Hulk.

#80 Posted by thestarguy (368 posts) - - Show Bio

@dum529001: Striking Banner with lethal force will kill him....period. Striking him with non-lethal force will either KO him (giving the win to the other team), or if he remains conscious, will then trigger the transformation, which is not instantaneous.