Jon Snow vs Brienne of Tarth

Rules

• TV versions
• Regular equipment
• Neither are holding back, they're going for the kill
• Start with swords drawn

Takes place in the pit above, the bear however is not there.

Game of Thrones:

@rogueshadow@princearagorn1@deadpoolvironfist@pope052@fallschirmjager@jedixman@godzilla44@sophia89@cregan_stark@i_like_swords@The_Deathstroker@eisenfauste

Both TV snow and book snow gets stomped.

Bri Bri stomps the king of the North. She's more man than him.

Brianne wins and takes his sword and proceeds to wipe out the whitewalkers.

Brienne stomps.

Brienne wins, but I don't see a stomp to be honest.

Any reasons as to why Brianne stomps ? I believe John is being severely underestimated here

Regular equipment makes this a decisive victory for Brienne. Snow's TV armor is pretty terrible as it is constantly punctured by just about anything. Brienne can grab Longclaw and stab him in the heart with her superior reach. Her gauntlet may be ruined in the process but she wins handily.

She grabs Longclaw and it cuts through her gauntlets and fingers like a paper its Valyrian steel. She still wins tho.

To be fair, the Hound was able to grab Oathkeeper by the blade. She's not as strong as he is, but it's still possible.

@d3athstroke:

Valyrian steel does not cut through steel like paper. That is pure mythological crap. It has been shown to be stronger and lighter, and likely retains a better edge, but it's been repeatedly stopped by steel blades and armor. In one instance it survives an impact that shatters steel, but it is merely the conduit through which the force that shattered the steel was applied.

I see it is a pretty close fight, not sure why everyone thinks it's a stomp... because Brienne beat a sick hound with a far superior weapon and a plot rock? Or stalemated a chained Jaime who had been rotting in his own fifth for months?

I see it as a close fight, though I don't quite remember some of Brienne's other showings.

Book versions I think Brienne beats Jon in similar fashion that she did Loras. Just like with the Loras fight, it would be a good fight and she would take her wounds but in the end her superior size, strength and endurance will win the day.

TV versions would be pretty interesting honestly. Could go either way, Jon has better feats to be honest. Before anyone says "but Brienne beat Jaime and the Hound" keep in mind that both characters on the show were severely handicapped when they fought. But I say Brienne 6/10.

Brienne might win but it's definitely not a stomp.

Jon. Brienne's only fought weakened opponents while Jon took on a fookin legend.

@jedixman: Why do you see this as being a stomp?

@pateuvasiliu: yes, but the legend was also unaware that he was dealing with Valyrian Steel. (We're talking White Walker here, right?)

I'd probably give it to Brienne, she's got height and armor on him too.

Could go either way. Jon strikes me as being a more skilled fighter but Briene has by far the most experience and isn't lagging far behind in the skill department either.

@strider92: Actually I would put Jon in front of Brienne in actual combat and experience, Brienne is slightly older but Jon has been in more real fights. I would put Jon ahead of her in terms of skill, Brienne is leaps and bounds ahead in terms of physicals though which is honestly what gives he the win.

@thenaughtytitan: @cregan_stark:

Jon's craptastic armor makes it a stomp. Give him a suit of plate like hers and it's another matter. Take it from someone who has worn the stuff, plate makes edged weapons difficult to use against an opponent. You have to find a weak spot. Jon's weird leathery possible brigandine has no defense against a thrust and Brienne has a reach advantage. She skewers him while he can't get an angle to hurt her.

I don't feel like she has a big experience edge. Jon has been on the battle field, her encounters have always been on a smaller scale. What's she really done to say she has more experience than Jon? She's never been in big battles like castle black or the most recent battle Jon has been in (which is the white walker attack.) I think Jon has shown greater endurance and recovery in battles as well (Jon killed the white walker while heavily concussed and barely able to stand (he fell to the ground before and after he killed the white walker). I feel like he has a wider array of experiences in battle... not sure why she has a big experience edge.

Jon also has an edge in speed from what I've seen, he was able to dodge attacks from the quick white walker without a weapon and he fought two Thenn's at the same time during the battle of castle black where he was blocking both their attacks in rapid succession.

@namasthetu: Jon has a valyrian steel sword so I don't see how her armor is such a big deal (he should be able to penetrate it.)

If someone can prove to me it's a stomp with the current conditions then I will give Brienne standard nights watch leather to make it even, but right now I don't see it as a stomp.

@namasthetu: this is a fantasy series where Knights are slain with swords and other weapons, can't compare it to real life.

I've always felt Jon was criminally underrated (at least in the tv show) seeing as hes one of the only guys to have consistent combat feats in the entire series and not just the odd fight or two + hype.

And of course he's the only person to have killed a white walker in single semi-fair combat. As for strength, the guy was strong enough to lock blades with the thing, and we all know how strong white walkers are. So I don't think brienne's strength advantage is that big a factor honestly.

Backing Jon for a majority here.

Because she has done better in fights against people who were actually notable. Her fight against the Hound - even a weakened Hound - was more impressive than anything Jon has done. When he fought the sellsword at Craster's Keep, he had to be saved by one of the daughter-wives. When he fought a Thenn, he barely won - and he won using the environment, not his own weapon.

Jon Snow doesn't have a great track record. He's better than the average Crow, but they are all mostly common criminals with little combat experience. Brienne is physically stronger, has better armor, and has beaten more noteworthy opponents. Jon Snow only beat the White Walker because the White Walker was momentarily stunned when his weapon did not break Longclaw.

@thedailybagel: Yup, Jon is insanely underrated... backed him in a fight with Jorah Moremont not too long ago and people underestimated the hell out of Jon.

Another strength feat would be him locking his sword with Styr whom was huge and had a heavy axe.

I was just about to tout about Brienne's strength and power advantage until I was reminded of his fight with the White Walker and the Axe wielding Styr.

I too, think Jon is being underrated in terms of his skill and ability. Brienne may get the early advantage, overpower Jon, but I think he wins in the end.

Brienne

@jedixman:

Karl was a cutthroat, not a sellsword (pretty sure there is a difference) and he was said to be the best cutthroat in flea bottom (which isn't that impressive lol). Anyway that was a bad match up for Jon who at that point in time had never faced anyone who didn't fight with honor. He had to deal with two weapons coming at him in rapid succession and I feel that he did a good job blocking them but Karl had the edge in the fight. Karl eventually won through spitting in Jon's eyes... the fight between Karl is stylistically a bad match up for Jon at that time and Karl fights nothing like Brienne... don't see how that is great evidence for Jon losing this particular fight considering the match up is completely different.

Styr vs Jon was won through a plot hammer, but how did Brienne beat the hound? A plot rock and better weaponry. The swordplay was even up until Brienne knocked over the hound on rough terrain, and when they both got disarmed (just like the Styr and Jon fight) Brienne used a plot weapon (a rock) to beat the hound, it's a good win but it is not the most impressive thing in the world when you look at it for what it was. A sick hound with far worse equipment was beaten by Brienne with a plot rock.

Brienne is physically stronger, has better armor, and has beaten more noteworthy opponents.

Eh, Jon has locked blades with people stronger than her (the white walker is way stronger than her). Strength wont be a huge advantage. The armor wont be a huge advantage considering long claw should be able to penetrate it easily. The armor also slows her down, whereas Jon is wearing much lighter armor and he is faster as well. I'd say the white walker is noteworthy considering his strength, speed and what he did to the elder thenn (who was most likely the current magnar of thenn considering he was the Thenn at the meeting of the elders). Jon had impressive showings during the battle of castle black, he killed 6-8 wildlings in a row, killed multiple Thenn's in a row and fought two Thenn's at the same time (blocking attacks from both).

I'd say Jon has enough showings of skill, speed, endurance and strength to hang with her, her fights against noteworthy opponents have a lot weighing them down.

Jon Snow only beat the White Walker because the White Walker was momentarily stunned when his weapon did not break Longclaw

Really? Is that how it happened? Momentarily stunned and that's when Jon killed him? Wronghe was stunned momentarily when their weapons locked together and Jon's did not break, and then the white walker and Jon both attacked and Jon hit his sword away thus creating an opening. He was not stunned when Jon killed him, he was still actively fighting. Go rewatch the scene.

I'd also like to note that Jon was heavily concussed the entire time this was happening, just before he was barely able to stand and right after he fell to his knees.

@jedixman: Don't mean to debate in a thread I made but I had to :P

Brienne may take a majority but it isn't a stomp.

@jedixman: I'm sorry but Styr would absolutely eat Brienne for breakfast.

Also she has fought noteworthy characters that were severely handicapped. Jaime was shackled and had been starved in a dungeon for a year and he still gave Brienne a fight until he got tired. The Hound was basically one handed when they fought, he could barely use his other hand.

Jon has fought a perfectly healthy Magnar of Thenn as well as a White Walker and won them both. Those are definitely better than anything Brienne has done. They have both looked good against fodder.

Not really. She fought Loras who is more a lance man than an ax fighter (the argument could be made she only won that fight due to the heavy armor both were wearing, he tired first and she was able to rush and tackle, since you know, he disarmed her). Then there's a weakened Jaime and a weakened Hound. Jon beat Styr who was a fighter feared (at the very least revered) even among the wildlings and earned the respect of the men he led. Also he's easily comparable to Brienne in strength and more brutal in approach. He also held his own against Karl Tanner (a fooken legend) despite being at a weapon and environment disadvantage (twin daggers vs a bastard sword in a tight environment, with both in light armor) and it being his first experience with someone who truly knew the art of fighting dirty.

And no, he didn't only beat the white walker because of that momentary stun. For one they both took a brief moment out (in surprise) and after withdrawing blades both were back to attack only Jon was quicker, he even parried another attack before landing the killing blow (plus he did well even without his sword). And he has proven himself more in fights where he's outnumbered.

Brienne easy.

@jedixman: just on the point of the White walker being stunned, Jon didn't capitalise on that all. He parried another hit and then won. The White walker being stunned didn't have much to with it.

How would Styr eat her for breakfast?

Yep, pointed that in my post... Jon parrying the next attack is what created the opening for him winning the fight, not the White Walker being stunned.

@thenaughtytitan: He would kill her with his axe and then slow roast her over an open flame. She would be ready by morning and make a delicious breakfast.

@thenaughtytitan: people like to try to downplay Jon's Walker fight because it's such a high end feat and they don't think he should have it. The fact is that Jon either dodged or blocked every shot that the Walker threw at him except for the one where he was hit with the back end of the spear.

Jon fought the Walker off through skill, toughness and a bit of luck. The same way he defeated Styr. He's a scrapper and doesn't get enough credit.

@thenaughtytitan:@thedailybagel: @cregan_stark said:

That statement is complete BS.

This is a low fantasy world in which there is virtually no magic and magic has rather explicitly been stated to be non existent outside a few select cases. There are no examples where swords are shown to be more effective against plate than maces, warhammers, or warpicks.

So under these conditions there is no reason to believe arms and armor operate differently.

By contrast there are several reasons to think they do. Martin did a great deal of research and based a lot of the books on the War of the Roses, including the combat and technology. This is emphasized in the books and the show by the fact that swords are used against plate in the only manner in which they are effective, by getting an angle on an opponent to slip the sword into a gap.

So with all this in mind there is no reason to believe that Brienne cannot simply move inside Jon's swing without a single concern of being cut, crowd out his sword arm with her much more massive plated body, and thrust her sword through his virtually nonexistent armor. Jon is easily as strong (if not stronger), faster, has more endurance, and skill, but he cannot in any way protect any of his body from her assault. She can move in and out of combat with relative ease, only having to protect her head while he is entirely exposed. She will kill him before he is able to get an angle. With armor equalized (up or down) he wins this pretty handily but never EVER doubt the effect of superior protection.

@namasthetu: I stopped reading after you said there is no magic. There is so much magic in this series that it's not funny. As well as dragons, others, elves, Giants, giant kraken, zombies, blood magic, shadow magic, fortune tellers, tree magic, fire magic, warging, etc. check the books out.

several points in the books where armor was pierced and Knights being killed by swords, arrows, etc.

@cregan_stark:

Show me an excerpt where a piece of castle-forged plate was directly pierced by a sword. Virtually every pierce is in a spot you can assume there was not a plate or it is specifically not a plate. More than that it reinforces my point that people in Westeros are having to work around the plates and more often than not it takes time, effort, or ambush. The show reinforces this even more so. Jon doesn't have any of those in this fight, he has however long it takes Brienne to close. He isn't going to manage it except in the most extreme cases of luck.

@namasthetu: here's a better idea, instead of me looking on the Internet for excerts why don't you buy the books and read them for yourself.

Bri wrecks

@cregan_stark:

You are the one who made a comment that is logically indefensible without that evidence so you are the one who has to present it. I have the books and I do not recall a single moment when a sword pierced plate armor. I look for those things when I read so it would be odd for me to miss one. Even if one or two existed they would be anomalies and irrelevant to this battle as it is TV versions; and again no examples exist to support your statement that swords in Westeros pierce plate. Considering they make relatively accurate period armor it would be impossible anyway without special effects as even black powder firearms have a hard time piercing plate. The strongest men on earth could not shove a sword through plate. Westeros is not presented as being a place full of supernaturally strong people or abnormally weak steel. Even Gregor Clegane uses a greatsword as a cleaving weapon where the sheer impact can damage armor and the man inside as opposed to trying to pierce the armor itself.

I agree with this statement btw. We only disagree on the effectiveness of armor. The only people that I think could give Jon a run for his money in skill and tenacity are the ones who already get all the credit they deserve (and possibly a bit more than they deserve). If he at least had a plate or lamellar cuirass I think he could take this fight.

@namasthetu: the show is a lot more based in realism than the books. But the books are a different story, Jorah had his armor pierced, Gregor has his armor pierced and Lorraq had his armor pierced and those are just off the top of my head.

Usually when I vote on these battles I put them in perspective of the show AND the books because they are different yet similar at the same time.

In real life the armor may help and possibly in the show but not in the books. Also remeber that Brienne only wears partial armor and no healm so she's definitely vulnerable

@cregan_stark:

If you are referring to Oberyn and the Mountain, the armor itself is never pierced. Oberyn exploits a reach advantage with a spear to stab at his opponent's few vulnerable areas. He is also MUCH faster than Clegane and while Jon is faster than Brienne, he is not that much faster, nor does he have a reach advantage. Also, spears are vastly superior thrusting weapons. This is all consistent with what I have been saying.

I do not recall Jorah's armor being pierced (I do recall something gets stuck in it) or Loraq even wearing plate.

Perhaps there is some confusion about the more specific aspects of what I am trying to say. In order for Jon to kill Brienne he has to deal a mortal wound to her head or in some way work around the plates of her cuirass to get to vital organs. While he could do this given time, Brienne needs to exert basically no effort to deal a killing blow. Jon is wearing armor pierced by arrows at a fairly substantial range by Ygritte, which probably equates to around a casual sword thrust from an average person in force. Brienne is stabbing him with a Valyrian steel sword with a reach advantage of about four inches (from the actor heights and prop replicas of the swords). She can literally kill him without exposing herself at all. She can if she wishes move inside his swing without fear of damage and impale him with a single thrust. She simply doesn't need much if any skill to win whereas he needs to get a lucky first shot. If he had any defense against her initial blows this would be a different battle, but he doesn't have it. If he even had an environment to play off of I would give him a better chance but he's in a pit. In the pit armor has even greater sway.

@namasthetu: I wasn't referring to Oberyn vs Gregor as it was a bit different in the books, Oberyn shouldn't have any reach advantage as he's facing a 8 foot man who is using a great sword, his speed and poison slowed the Mountain down. Gregor was pierced several times in the books at one point he had so many arrow in he that he looked like a pin cushion. Also on the show, Oberyn stuck the spear straight through Gregor's chest.

Jorah was pierced by arakh but I'll have to read that fight again to make sure it was through his armor. Lorraq wore armor after he was knighted.

Those are just off the top off head. To be honest I don't really have the drive or desire to go back through for more examples.

There is nothing stopping Jon for using his advantages in skill and speed to get in there and go for a kill shot much like he did with Styr.

Also how great of a reach would she have wielding a "longsword" against a bastard sword?

@iragexcudder: No, dude. Karl fuckin Tanner. A fookin legend.

@pateuvasiliu: lolol