Jokergeist's Party! R1: Sovereign91001 vs CadenceV2

@cadencev2: Hulk broke the admantium tipped needle during Ultimates, not the vial, The Wasp confirmed it. Also with Sabretooth's claw, from the artist drawing you can tell that metal has been broken by the jagged edges, running out of adamantium is not a viable excuse

@sovereign91001@cadencev2

If possible, please refrain from arguing with the voters.

Lets look at this.

Hulk wraps his Hand around Caps and squeezes breaking the Needle.

The Informal word for a Entire shot is Needle. The only part of the Serum that was Adamantium was the Needle tip. Hulk broke the Barrel, Plunger, and Syringe itself. That makes up 3/4s of the Needle by informal definition.

Hulk cannot squeeze and break a Needle tip, that makes no sense. However, the informal definition and the Syringe part itself breaking does make a lot of sense.

How About Sabertooth? What about it? This is Sabertooths FIRST SHOWING AND DRAWN PICTUREwith his claws. He was Drawn missing it. No Explanation, mentioning, or on panel showing of why it is like that. Since Adamantium is super rare, maybe they did not have enough to Finnish it, or maybe it fail to Ossified like Wolverine's weak spot!

I just gave two reasons why Sabertooth is drawn like that which makes more sense than to assume on no info provided that Sabertooth's claw broke.

@cadencev2: It's called a Syringe not a needle. There's a difference, other things apart from a needle can be attached to a syringe such as a tube or a nozzle . It doesn't necessarily have to be a needle on the end of a syringe and I think someone with two 2 Phd's would know that, and would know that a needle is repeater from the syringe itself .

Her reaction also further proves the point that it was the Adamantium tipped needle that he broke;due to her surprise. Why would she say" Oh My God, he broke the vial" anybody with sufficient enough strength could break it

Sabretooth;s claw looks broken, there's no two ways about it

You can tell by the way that the it's drawn that the blade had been broken due to the fact that it's drawn with a jagged edge. Saying they ran out of admantium is a lazy excuse, if for some reason admantium ran they would have just made the claw shorter but still to pointed edge, rather it looks broken.

You can ask other users for their opinion if you feel so strongly that they ran out of adamantium

@dondave said:

@cadencev2: It's called a Syringe not a needle. There's a difference, other things apart from a needle can be attached to a syringe such as a tube or a nozzle . It doesn't necessarily have to be a needle on the end of a syringe and I think someone with two 2 Phd's would know that, and would know that a needle is repeater from the syringe itself .

Her reaction also further proves the point that it was the Adamantium tipped needle that he broke;due to her surprise. Why would she say" Oh My God, he broke the vial" anybody with sufficient enough strength could break it

Sabretooth;s claw looks broken, there's no two ways about it

You can tell by the way that the it's drawn that the blade had been broken due to the fact that it's drawn with a jagged edge. Saying they ran out of admantium is a lazy excuse, if for some reason admantium ran they would have just made the claw shorter but still to pointed edge, rather it looks broken.

You can ask other users for their opinion if you feel so strongly that they ran out of adamantium

So you ignore the fact that Hulk Squeezed Caps hand breaking the part that was not Adamantium AND holding the serum (The real important part of the shot) and use slang term of Needle over all in her surprise of losing the ONE AND ONLY sure win plan they had.

You also still ignore the quotes and posts of more deeper logical explanations of the Ossifying process of Adamantium messing up at at times and and how Adamanatium is rare to begin with because the Claw looks broken to you so it must have been broken by some UNKNOWN OR EXPLAINED means.

...... I debunked everything with real ease and mutiple sourcing. I think we will agree to disagree, however there is NO FACT at all Adamantium being broken. The only place that says it has been broken is on p!$$ poor wikis made by some idiot who i debunked all ready every time.

@cadencev2: It's not impossible for him to break the needle while holding Cap's hand why would you say he can't ? It's not a slang though, there's amarked difference between a needle and a syringe, even in her suprise she'd still know that considering she has two Phd's.

The way the claw was drawn it looks broken, just because it's unexplained why it's broken doesn't mean it impossible and your reasoning seems far fetched to begin with, they ran out Adamantium. If for some unexplained reason there was not enough admantium they would have just made all the claws shorter, rather than have one of them for some reason being shorter than the rest, not to mention the claw is not made to a point like all the other claws, it has a jagged edge, an indication of it being shattered.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree after-all

I guess your reasoning and Opinion out weight the FACTS.

Obviously what I explains holds more weight since it is flat out stated UNBREAKABLE!

Guess your opinion > to facts.

Alright, here's how it breaks down.

Betsy vs Xavier:

I bought Sovereign's arg that Betsy would shield his team from telepathic sensing.

I didn't buy his arg that Betsy, by virtue of being better than 616 Xavier, would beat Ult Xavier especially with args from Cadencev2 that showed that Ult Xavier was...well, a telepathic boss.

Point to cadencev2.

Ult. Wolverine vs 616 Wolverine:

No contest. I've read enough of Cadencev2's debates to know that there is no possible way for 616 Wolverine. I understand that perhaps he DIDN'T show off those arguments here, but I can't vote for Sovereign based off of Cadence NOT posting certain scans when I've seen those scans.

Point to cadence2.

Kakashi vs Ult. Rogue:

How is this up for debate? Kakashi meta-dunks Ult. Rogue. Also Kamui Phaser-teleport, atomizing one of his teammates (going to assume Ult. Rogue as per logic and all)

Point to sovereign

Unfortunately, telepathy and all, so...Kakashi vs Ult. Wolverine and Ult. Xavier doesn't look so good.

HOWEVER I realize that Ult. Xavier wouldn't instantly own Betsy, or Ult. Wolverine instantly own Wolvie, but Kakashi WOULD instantly dunk Ult. Rogue, then go help Wolvie take down Ult. Wovie

Point to sovereign

Aaaaand then we have the whole 'Ultimate Xavier' thing. He mindrapes Wolvie and Kakashi -sorry, sov, but I didn't buy that Wolverine could somehow throw off Professor X's mind-control.

Point to cadence

Score 3-2 in favor of cadence

Vote goes to @cadencev2

@cadencev2:

Oh no, I was just saying that while Ult. Wolverine vs 616 Wolverine might have been debatable in this debate, from what I've seen of OTHER showings of Ult. Wolverine he'd easily win it.

Thanks for the Vote.

@thedarklordpandamonium: I understand your vote is for Cadence and that's cool (I'm not arguing for you to change your vote at all) but by Cadence's own words the phaser explosion should takes out the entire quadrant of a starship so the AOE of the blast should take out more than one character as Kakashi controls where it ends up. Even though my argument wasn't enough to convince you for my vote thanks for putting up a vote anyway.

@jokergeist I won't.

3 (Sovereign) - 5 (Cadence)

Ah, but the caveat is that I actually watched Star Trek; the phaser only has energy sufficient to destroy an entire quadrant of a starship when all of its energy is released in one blast. Otherwise, it just vaporizes people.

I did argue too that TK can throw it right back and I have 2 people with TK here. Also I said it be possible to use the TOS Phaser as a vaporizer beam if the Battle CPU foresaw a problem with the Explosion.

I just wanted to throw in there I countered the counter in 2 ways.

@cadencev2: And I can portal drop it back at you or poof it out of your hands. So I countered your counter.

@cadencev2: Adamantium could be considered unbreakable until something breaks it. Sure at the time of it's creation it was considered unbreakable because it hadn't broken, however, up until that point it had never gone up against a Hulk and he proved it to be breakable. But as I said lets agree to disagree

Just to clarify, that was written close to Ultimantum, after all this with the needle, Sabertooth, Hulk vs Wolverine crap.

We will again agree to disagree.

@thedarklordpandamonium: Isn't that what he did by setting it to self destruct?

I've only watched about 1/3rd of TOS (watched and loved all the other Treks though). That's actually where my username came from: Sovereign Class starship and the call number 91001 from the NX-91001 from ST:O But I digress as I said I'm not trying to change your vote or anything so much as making sure all the i's were dotted and the t's crossed as far as the debate goes.

@sovereign91001:

The odds of Ultimate Wolvie being able to manually overload the Phaser are...low. XD You have to deliberately disengage the safeties, an act that requires formal training. 1 month wouldn't cut it.

@sovereign91001: gets my vote

Betsy's recent upgrade easily puts her on par with Ultimate Professor X both Telepathically and Telekinetically. There is no real advantage that either team has telepathically.

It doesn't really matter if 1610 Adamantium can be broken, only Wolverine's bones are adamantium which means every joint is a potential weakness that 616 Wolverine does not have. Wolverine has full knowledge here and he will use that to give him an advantage. Ultimately, I see them stalemating.

This comes down to Kakashi and Rogue and Rogue will be hamstringed by the useless battle computer which will leave her vulnerable to wealth of attacks that Kakashi. Ultimately, the sheer versatility of Kakashi's powers and clones will overwhelm her. Kakashi wins this battle and can then turn the tide in the other battles.

The best advice I can give to @cadencev2 is to stop relying on a single tactic or strategy to win the day. You need versatility and multiple flexible and variable strategies to ensure a victory. No real general relies on a single strategy to win the day.

Vote goes to @sovereign91001.

As an aside, @angryprune voting for who posts more feats is like voting for the politician who brings up more statistics during the debate. It is not only incredibly stupid, but only serves to show that you value flash more than you do substance. Next time, if you can't determine a winner based upon points presented then don't vote at all.

Also, @thedarklordpandamonium, you should not make votes based upon what you know about the character but what has been presented by the debater. You may know that Ultimate Wolverine is a beast but unless CadenceV2 has presented that point you can't take it into consideration. Even if you had read every single thing about Ultimate Wolverine, that knowledge is only useful in analyzing points presented and should not be used to enhance one side's argument.

@diredrill:

I already acknowledged that, but I read through the argument at first slightly cursorily and then was like 'waaaaait this is...kinda jank' and then read through, and my knowledge that Cadence WASN'T presenting all the points possible was already sort of coloring it. So I was at first biased against him because I knew he wasn't presenting all the points, so I couldn't really come to a decision because of that bias.

And, in any case, it didn't particularly matter; as I said even if Kakashi and Wolverine had teamed up on Ult. Xavier he would have still stomped them if he'd beaten Betsy (which I thought he would; imo Ult. Xavier is

Scratch that

@jokergeist said Kid Omega was DQ'd based on being over the TP limits, who at his best was lower than 616 Professor X, and arguments were presented for both sides that Betsy and Ult. X were stronger than 616 Professor X.

BOTH of these telepathic clowns are out if that's the case!

That means it's Rogue and Ult. Wolverine vs Wolverine and Kakashi, in which case Sov. gets it

But since nobody brought up that point, I officially detract my vote from Cadence. Neither of them win.

@diredrill: How did you miss the fact Rogue has Xaviers TP and TK? I ask as you never adreessed it and that was the core of my strategy. Rogue gaining Wolverines and Xaviers powers as I showed. She also gets the skill to use them as I showed.

Why is no one remembering this key fact of my debate?

So now you argued also with another voter to make him take his vote back? Also how can you tell me I posted little strategy when Sovereign posted no COUNTERS to mine? He just dances around the fact he has no way to counter...

• Midnighters Battle Computer.
• Molecule Vaporizing Star Trek Phaser.
• Wolverine Robots.
• 3 Wolverine Healers (Xavier on Banshee has Wolverine Powers, Wolverine, and Rogue!)
• And the most Important fact I have 2 Xavier level Telepathy with Major TK. (Both Rogue and Xavier)

I really am astounded. To be fair @thedarklordpandamonium Rogue has the Phaser and can use it to one shot Wolverine with Vaporizing mode (Phaser set to kill) like I showed in my argument meaning easy win for my team.

Vote for me again, its all good?!

Also Xavier is over the limits how? Miss Martian overpowered Brainwave and Martain Manhunter with TP raw power. How the hell is Xavier who lost to Phoenix and Galactus over that limit?

@cadencev2:

Rogue has only been shown to successfully manage 2 psyches while on Banshee. Outside of that, she has never shown the level of control that 616 Rogue has. Sovereign made the case that her concentration would be divided between the Battle Computer spitting millions of scenarios into her head, Professor X's psyche, and Wolverine's psyche. You made no real counter to that.

Holy Hell! Rogue has no Banshee. Only Xavier as listed. Did you even read the debate!? Also I did show her using Juggernauts and Firestars power excelent as well Marvel Girls TP powers on Iceman with expert skill.

Are you just bias and trying to scare off anyone who voted for me?

@floopay@esquire@beatboks1@mr_ingenuity@strider92@laflux@jediwaffles@boschepg@rogueslayer17@nickthedevil@killemall

Guys, as very veteren tourney posters, go over this and let me know if I failed so epic on this match. and let me know if you think Ultimate Adamnatium is breackable as @dondave really peeved me off with his opinion on it. I almost care more about my side debate with Dondave than this match.

Let me know. I am online soul searching and hitting a new low with my past few matches on the Vine.

Ultimate Adamantium is not breakable and that post is completely wrong. With just a fundamental understanding on how force works, a syringe needle shouldn't have even broken in those conditions if it was made of aluminum... I also agree that 616 Wolverine suffers from consistent PIS and WIS and their lack of logic makes him more powerful than he should be (adamantium joints, and a few other points I don't like to bring up). Overall, Ultimate Adamantium was proven to be as durable as 616 Adamantium (if not stronger actually), and even if there is a difference between the two it's too negligible for any argument to be made for anyone breaking adamantium in this tournament. In fact, anyone who could break adamantium in this tournament should be instantly disqualified. Even 616 Wolverine has difficult cutting through the Hulk's skin and bone, and can't cut through Vibranium (which is weaker than adamantium). So him cutting through Ultimate Adamantium would be out of the question, just as anyone with Ultimate Adamantium cutting through 616 Adamantium is out of the question.

As for this debate, I think this is very reminiscent of a pissing match more than anything. I feel like I spent most of the time reading about both teams claiming the other team was worthless, and found this was less about strategy and cunning, and more about just trying to prove one team was superior in every possible aspect, and therefore there was no chance for the other team to win. After looking over feats, however, it became pretty apparent that both teams were much more even than either team lead them on to be.

In the end, I wish both @sovereign91001 and @cadencev2 had focused more on their own team and their own teams capabilities, and less on their opponents team and their opponent's team capabilities.

As for @thedarklordpandamonium's comment. I do have to agree, it seems like you both had telepaths outside the limits. Granted, jokergeist should have made a better example of what he actually wanted in terms of limitations on telepathy, but Quentine Quire was clearly below both of these telepaths and was disqualified because of it. Even with the power of the Phoenix force his TP was below these two (but his TK was above, though without PF he didn't have TK at all).

So I really have no idea who I'd vote for.

Though I know both of you will probably disagree with what I've posted here, this is my observation.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@cadencev2:

How is Xavier over the limits?

Because Jokergeist says so, that's why.

No, I'm actually not kidding. He DQ'd Kid Omega for being over the limits despite having lost to Professor X because, and I quote 'he was more powerful than miss Martian or Emma frost'.

Soo considering both of your chars are over the limits I'm just not going to vote.

BTW diredrill didn't persuade me, he just reminded me that apparently Emma Frost is the TP limit.

Also I don't understand the whole adamantium debate. Why is it relevant considering neither wolverine, as floopay aptly said, could ever actually break any adamantium?

???

Regardless I personally don't believe adamantium differs from universe to universe.

@cadencev2: It is because she has no Banshee that I did not buy your argument that Rogue would be able to handle all of those things. Maybe you should read my posts before making your own.

You did not post anything showing Rogue using both Juggernaut and Firestar's powers together. Was this pre or post Ultimatum? Even then, it was not presented. Iceman is an easy target by the way, even 1610. It is not really much a feat defeating him.

If what I say convinces others to vote the other way then you did not do a good enough job and don't deserve the vote anyways.

@floopay: I wept reading your breakdown. And your right, I did spend too much time trying to prove superiority rather than strategy.

.... wow...... That is very weak Telepathy..... very weak.

Also thank you on the adamantium view. I care more about that than this piss poor debate overall.

@jokergeist Get in here, are we over the TP limit? Let me know now. Kid Omega being disqualed is pretty concerning as Miss Martian in Young justice metally overpowered Brainwave, Queen bee, and Martian Manhunter!

@cadencev2:

oh Jesus I forgot about that

Doesn't that mean, like, basically no limits? Brainwave made the Spectre leave, didn't he? MMH can mind control countries and same with Queen Bee...

close call, but I have to go with @cadencev2

I mis read your post. I also realize half the scans I thought were there are not. I am upset by this. I mention it in my arguments but it was never uploaded. It was pre Ultimatum. Literally 1 issue before Ultimantum.

Iceman being defeated was a showing how with a touch she understood Jeans power of Mind Raping perfectly. It was not a showing of beating Iceman, it was a showing how well she can use a mutants power with a touch.

You flat out adress other voters and targeted them who voted for me and try to convince them with a whole personnel argument why they were wrong. That is quite the d!ck move.

@floopay: @thedarklordpandamonium:

After a little re reading I am very disappointed in myself. I sucked ass this round. There is so much more I could have added and put in. Oh well.

Exactly, the limits of Miss Martian are freaking high! She has no finesse and a small radius, but supreme power nonetheless.

@cadencev2: You should always double check your posts before posting. This way you don't make yourself look so foolish lowering the attempts.

I have always addressed people who have used poor reasoning to vote. "Moar Feats = Victory" has got to be the stupidest rationale I have ever seen and it deserves to be rebuffed at all opportunities because it actively lowers the level of discourse. Everything we do here should raise the level of discourse. The fact is both votes I addressed used poor reasoning. At no point did I ask them to change their vote, I just explained why their vote was bad.

I still read it the other way, unlike real life talking with tones and sound, reading text is different.

You should never have targeted them at all except maybe in a private chat. It looks on here your waving a banner for Sovereign. That may not what your trying to do, but that is how it looks like.

@diredrill:

I feel I countered that quite nicely.

@cadencev2: Unlike real life with talking, you have unlimited time to form your sentences and review previous posts.

Everything we do should raise the level of discourse. Private Messaging would not have done that.

Had people on Sovereign91001 voted using poor reasoning then I would indeed have called them out.

I never said Xavier was over the limits, what the hell are you talking about.

I don't believe so. I'm allowing Xavier and Psylocke. I disqualified Kid Omega because it's common knowledge how powerful his telepathy is:

• Quentin Quire is more powerful than Charles Xavier.
• Quentin Quire is more powerful than Emma Frost.
• Quentin Quire is probably more powerful than Miss Martian.
• He dominated the Xavier Institute.
• IIRC, It took 3 Emma Frost level Telepaths on steroids and using Cerebra to defeat him.
• I don't remember if Kid Omega had telekinesis, but I know that his TK power is over the limit.

@jokergeist:

1) nope I expressly told you he wasn't. Xavier dominated him; quire had to put a magneto like helmet on his head which limited his powers. As soon as it was off Xavier beat him

2) Yes....? Emma Frost is alpha level.

3) Miss Martian has dominated three planetary level telepaths at once. Making her the limit is akin to making no limit at all.

4) Right.

5) And it also took those same three telepathy WITHOUT any of those things to defeat him.

6) I can't even address how dumb this is

I said that I don't remember WHEN Quentin Quire developed his telekinesis abilities, but I know that when he did it was over the limit. Maybe KID Omega didn't have telekinesis, but ADULT Omega did. Think about what you read before responding.

Speaking of, did he have TK?

@cadencev2: My vote goes Cadence, i think his showings for xavier tipped it

@adamthesubmariner: Thank you.

Wha -no you didn't, you said, and I quote:

• I don't remember if Kid Omega had telekinesis, but I know that his TK power is over the limit.

Not even close to what you said you said.

Also there is no 'Adult Omega'. ???

Kid Omega only has TK when bonded with the Phoenix host, unless you consider his telepathic shotguns TK. And it's not really like they have any feats considering they only manifested when he was, what, half-unconscious? @floopay? Would Kid Omega be outside of the limits if he had the Phoenix Host?

Also given that apparently you agree with everything else, can I have Kid Omega back? Y/N? (I'm assuming it's yes given that you claimed it was 'common knowledge' that Kid Omega>Xavier yet Floopay Cadencev2 and me disagree with you)

ANYHOW

Given that Jokergeist has clarified this mishap, my vote goes back to cadencev2.

Quentin Quire when bonded with the Phoenix was ridiculously powerful, and should in no way be allowed.
I already stated my opinion on this matter. Without the Phoenix, he's about as powerful as Emma Stone or Charles Xavier, as of yet. His potential is supposed to be higher, but he hasn't the feats or experience to prove it.

Though he has developed a unique use of his psionic powers to mimic those of Psylocke, in that he creates psionic weapons with them, though unlike the Psi-Sword, the Psi-Gun was projected Psi-Blasts and bullets, I think he used them against the Phalanx, but I'd have to double check that, been awhile, but I know he first demonstrated it when fighting with Wolverine against an alien invading force.

So he's got some nice versatility with his ability, as opposed to Xavier's straight-forwardness.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@floopay:

Alright. So Kid Omega is within the limits.

GREAT! :D

Also, quick question: Did Kid Omega get inside Rachel's mind because of his light-speed mind or because she let him or because of psionic strength?

@floopay: Freudian Slip? Emma Stone has no telepathic powers.

Please.

Basically mind control.

"I don't remember if KIDOmega had telekinesis, but I know that his TK power is over the limit"

It's the same thing >_>

Okay seriously TP makes me want throw up. It's confusing.

Here, I'll make a generous proposition. Here's my offer: I'll give you back Kid Omega, only under the circumstances that he may not use Cosmo or Wanda.

This is way past fair, considering 1) he surpasses the Telekinesis limit - I shouldn't even be allowing him, 2) this was your 2nd/3rd chance for a character re-pick, and 3) You are now very much familiar with Da Rules, and have carefully chosen a character that fits the rules that Maka previously broke. A second chance at choosing is simply too huge of an advantage. And 4) Kid Omega combined with Avatar Aang is a very dangerous combo, so you wouldn't need the fairies to win anyway.

You can either [Accept] or [Decline]. Complaining counts as declining. Choose wisely.