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#1 Edited by Jokergeist (4898 posts) - - Show Bio

The Nazi Zombie Apocalypse

Because of some freak accident, Blindfold, Forge and Madison Jeffries, a.k.a. The Preemptors, have accidentally traveled through time into the middle of the Nazi Zombie apocalypse. They find themselves in Kino der Toten, German for "Theater of the Dead." Evil Ernie, being undead himself, has taken Taskmaster and David Xanatos to the undead theater, where they're commanded to assassinate the other team.

The two teams now have to kill each other, and hordes of zombies, in order to survive.

Location: Kino der Toten

  • The teleporter in Lobby transports to Theater teleporter
  • The teleporter in Theater transports to Lobby teleporter
  1. Alley
  2. Fire Room
  3. Lobby
  4. Theater - Center view
  5. Theater - Side view. The gatling gun is functional.
  6. Saloon

@esquire The Preemptors starts in the Alley

@betatesthighlander1 OBIEY starts in the Saloon

Battle Conditions

  • Map is infested with 111 walking zombies, who will attack anyone they see. Although they are slow & weak, they will be a minor nuisance.
  • The mystery box isn't here, but the wall-mounted weapon pickups are available if you know where they're located. Also, you need to kill zombies for points in order to "purchase" them.
  • Both teams get photographs of the opposing team's members
  • No prep is given. This is a search-and-destroy hunt.
  • Fight to the death
  • In-Character

The Teams

@esquire

The Preemptors

VS

@betatesthighlander1

OBIEY

#2 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire hello, this seems like an interesting scenario to say the least

would you like first words, or would you prefer for me to have the first words?

#3 Edited by Esquire (3742 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1: I'm going to be gone for a the next day or so, so I'll write up a quick opener and then you can make a response while I'm gone, if that's okay.

#4 Posted by Esquire (3742 posts) - - Show Bio

@jokergeist Are weapon pickups and the Mystery Box active, or only the gatling gun?

@betatesthighlander1

My team was formulated largely around the promise of prep time, which I am unfortunately not allotted here. But my team is still far from useless, and this map lends many advantages to my squad. I have on my team two of the best mechanics in comics. Madison Jeffries is able to create, from scrap materials, just about anything he can think of. Using a sort of techno-kinesis, Jeffries manipulates technology and raw materials to create any sort of technology he needs in moments. Forge is a mutant with the power to create anything he can imagine. He has an intuitive grasp of technology and how to build it, and can whip up zany creations from whatever bits and pieces are lying around. The pair of mechanical mutants working together make my team a veritable factory of advanced technology.

Blindfold, on the other hand, has no technical expertise. Instead, she is a precognitive, retrocognitive, clairvoyant telepath. She can see things that have happened, are happening, and will happen. And she can read minds. Her various sight abilities let her give Jeffries and Forge a rundown of your team's abilities and weaknesses, so that the mechanics can build counters for you.

So how does that apply here, with no prep time? Well, thanks to my goody bag, I have a teleporter. Jeffries will wear the Penetraitor, with Forge wearing the Journeyman's Boots and Flight Ring. When the match begins, my team will use the Penetraitor to teleport to the Theater. Jeffries will then teleport rapidly through the map, using his power to shut off the teleporter grid and fuse all of the doors and windows shut. In the few seconds that he's gone, Blindfold will describe your team to Forge as he gathers useful materials from around the room. Once Jeffries returns, Forge will describe how to make the tech he's thought of based on Blindfold's briefing. AoA Forge and Magneto were able to create a trans-dimensional gate in seconds using Erik's powers and Forge's tech know-how, so this sort of tactic should work fine with Forge and Jeffries.

Jeffries and Forge will take control of the gatling gun and attach a motion-sensitive targeting system to it. They'll reinforce the doors leading into the theatre, and make fortifications surrounding the platform where the screen and gun are situated. Jeffries will add sonic blasters and railguns to the defenses. Blindfold will be using her postcog to run through your team's various defeats. This will lead to Jeffries using the projector to play video of Sasquatch, Snowbird, Puck, and other heroes that Taskmaster will try to absorb, leading to a memory overload as in Taskmaster: Unthinkable. While your team is trying to find mine and then breaking through the fortifies door, Forge and Jeffries will create a power dampener like the one Forge used to remove Storm's powers.

When your team finally enters the Theater, they will be immediately blasted by the gatling gun, sonic blasters, and railgun projectiles. While they're trying to avoid this onslaught, Jeffries will take over Xanatos' exo-armor. MJ spent much of his career with Alpha Flight controlling a robotic exo-armor, so this won't be any trouble for him. He will turn Xanatos on Evil Ernie, using David's enhanced strength and durability to separate Ernie from Smiley. This will negate much of Ernie's healing factor, letting the guns and blasters pummel him. Jeffries will have David bring Smiley closer, and Forge will blast Smiley with the power-remover. This should weaken Ernie even further and render Smiley useless, so David can then attack Taskmaster, assuming he's still standing after the barrage of almost uncopyable skill video and the various weapons trained against him. Forge will blast Ernie with the power negator once EE has been sufficiently beaten down by the various guns attacking him. Once David, my defenses, and my characters have teamed up to destroy Taskmaster, Jeffries will eject David from his armor and use it to take down Xanatos.

*Notes:

They will be able to create even faster than usual because of Forge's superspeed boots.

Blindfold can see the possible futures, so she'll know what might go wrong. Madison and Forge can fix these things.

If things get too dangerous and your team is somehow not killed by my team and their defenses, Jeffries will teleport all my characters to a different room which I'll fortify in similar fashion, changing what didn't work in the first room.

If Taskmaster or Ernie have any tech, Madison can use it against them. He can also steal. use, or destroy any metal weaponry such as swords and guns.

#5 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire said:

@betatesthighlander1: I'm going to be gone for a the next day or so, so I'll write up a quick opener and then you can make a response while I'm gone, if that's okay.

yes, that's fine

it also makes me feel slightly better about saying this:

I will be away from functioning computers from about noon Friday to sometime Sunday afternoon (sorry)

anyways, i'll get to a response a little later today

#6 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire said:

@jokergeist Are weapon pickups and the Mystery Box active, or only the gatling gun?

@betatesthighlander1

My team was formulated largely around the promise of prep time, which I am unfortunately not allotted here. But my team is still far from useless, and this map lends many advantages to my squad. I have on my team two of the best mechanics in comics. Madison Jeffries is able to create, from scrap materials, just about anything he can think of. Using a sort of techno-kinesis, Jeffries manipulates technology and raw materials to create any sort of technology he needs in moments. Forge is a mutant with the power to create anything he can imagine. He has an intuitive grasp of technology and how to build it, and can whip up zany creations from whatever bits and pieces are lying around. The pair of mechanical mutants working together make my team a veritable factory of advanced technology.

yeah, but we do have the sonic screwdriver

one of the big uses of that tool is screwing up the technology of others, so we should at least be able to impede your gadgets that you made.

@esquire said:

Blindfold, on the other hand, has no technical expertise. Instead, she is a precognitive, retrocognitive, clairvoyant telepath. She can see things that have happened, are happening, and will happen. And she can read minds. Her various sight abilities let her give Jeffries and Forge a rundown of your team's abilities and weaknesses, so that the mechanics can build counters for you.

hmmm, a good point, but I should point out that Evil Ernie is also a telepath

he hears (whether he wants to or not) the surface thoughts of all around him, combine that with Xanatos's well-known planning abilities, we should have some sort of advantage as far as discerning the thoughts of the other team

@esquire said:

So how does that apply here, with no prep time? Well, thanks to my goody bag, I have a teleporter. Jeffries will wear the Penetraitor, with Forge wearing the Journeyman's Boots and Flight Ring. When the match begins, my team will use the Penetraitor to teleport to the Theater. Jeffries will then teleport rapidly through the map, using his power to shut off the teleporter grid and fuse all of the doors and windows shut. In the few seconds that he's gone, Blindfold will describe your team to Forge as he gathers useful materials from around the room. Once Jeffries returns, Forge will describe how to make the tech he's thought of based on Blindfold's briefing. AoA Forge and Magneto were able to create a trans-dimensional gate in seconds using Erik's powers and Forge's tech know-how, so this sort of tactic should work fine with Forge and Jeffries.

hmm, well, Xanatos should be able to bust through a door just fine, as should Evil Ernie

can flip the jeep
not talking about the rocket here, but his ability to tear through the remnants of the tank

@esquire said:

Jeffries and Forge will take control of the gatling gun and attach a motion-sensitive targeting system to it. They'll reinforce the doors leading into the theatre, and make fortifications surrounding the platform where the screen and gun are situated. Jeffries will add sonic blasters and railguns to the defenses. Blindfold will be using her postcog to run through your team's various defeats. This will lead to Jeffries using the projector to play video of Sasquatch, Snowbird, Puck, and other heroes that Taskmaster will try to absorb, leading to a memory overload as in Taskmaster: Unthinkable. While your team is trying to find mine and then breaking through the fortifies door, Forge and Jeffries will create a power dampener like the one Forge used to remove Storm's powers.

uhhhhh, you are not going to have time for that

I have guys who can just fly in there and shoot your trio, a quick attack will make it fairly easy for us to get to y'all

@esquire said:

When your team finally enters the Theater, they will be immediately blasted by the gatling gun, sonic blasters, and railgun projectiles. While they're trying to avoid this onslaught, Jeffries will take over Xanatos' exo-armor. MJ spent much of his career with Alpha Flight controlling a robotic exo-armor, so this won't be any trouble for him. He will turn Xanatos on Evil Ernie, using David's enhanced strength and durability to separate Ernie from Smiley. This will negate much of Ernie's healing factor, letting the guns and blasters pummel him. Jeffries will have David bring Smiley closer, and Forge will blast Smiley with the power-remover. This should weaken Ernie even further and render Smiley useless, so David can then attack Taskmaster, assuming he's still standing after the barrage of almost uncopyable skill video and the various weapons trained against him. Forge will blast Ernie with the power negator once EE has been sufficiently beaten down by the various guns attacking him. Once David, my defenses, and my characters have teamed up to destroy Taskmaster, Jeffries will eject David from his armor and use it to take down Xanatos.

yeah, that's not going to happen, I'm gonna cover that later

@esquire said:

*Notes:

They will be able to create even faster than usual because of Forge's superspeed boots.

Blindfold can see the possible futures, so she'll know what might go wrong. Madison and Forge can fix these things.

If things get too dangerous and your team is somehow not killed by my team and their defenses, Jeffries will teleport all my characters to a different room which I'll fortify in similar fashion, changing what didn't work in the first room.

If Taskmaster or Ernie have any tech, Madison can use it against them. He can also steal. use, or destroy any metal weaponry such as swords and guns.

1. not sure how much that's gonna help

2. could I get some feats for how her powers actually work?

3. that depends on you being able to survive the onslaught

4. E has none, Taskmaster has minimal

My Strategy

so, immediately after you lock all of the doors, Evil Ernie is going to burst the doors down (sdo you think he's not strong enough?)

anyways, Taskmaster should be able to use his enhanced senses to discern the locations of you guys (or using Xanatos's sensors, or using E's telepathy)

anyways, Evil Ernie should be able to turn the 111 zombies to his own Thrall

considering he was previously able to resurrect corpses who had been dead for quite some time, anything dead seems to be his roaming ground

anyways, right after that, we should be able to burst into the theater fairly easily

now, we're going to head that attack with Evil Ernie and his dead army, backed up by Taskmaster's and Xanatos's range attacks, weilding the Sonic screwdriver randomly messing with all of your guys' technology

so, accuracy feats for taskmaster?

some regaular accuracy feats

and some Bullseye-style improvising

uhh, Xanatos also seems to have a targeting computer inside of his suit

most of the videos(that I can find) are full episodes, if you want me to post it I can

anyway, our ranged attacks should be able to kill at least one of your guys, who Evil Ernie should be able to resurrect (scans later, my phone's messing up), which will add one more member to our team while one is subtracted from yours

and so on and so forth

also, Ernie's dead Onez seem to have no major detraction from their abilities in life

can use walkie talkies, secure a perimeter
sorry about the quality, do you see how their operating a tank?

anyways, if these aren't enough to prove their basically capable of doing as humans, I could show you more

#7 Edited by Jokergeist (4898 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire said:

@jokergeist Are weapon pickups and the Mystery Box active, or only the gatling gun?

The mystery box isn't here, but the wall-mounted weapon pickups are available if you know where they're located. Also, you need to kill zombies for points in order to "purchase" them.

#8 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire said:

@jokergeist Are weapon pickups and the Mystery Box active, or only the gatling gun?

The mystery box isn't here, but the wall-mounted weapon pickups are available if you know where they're located. Also, you need to kill zombies for points in order to "purchase" them.

hey, I have a guy who seems to able able to resurrect any corpse as his thrall (I can give you feats if you want)

can I presume he'll be able to control the zombies?

#9 Posted by DireDrill (2064 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1:

So good to see you still think that Taskmaster has enhanced senses despite that being complete crap.

#10 Posted by Jokergeist (4898 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1: When he resurrects corpses, are they under his control? If you have feats that suggest he has control over the undead, then yes.

#11 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1:

So good to see you still think that Taskmaster has enhanced senses despite that being complete crap.

hello good sir, I appreciate your input, but I immediately corroborated what I said with feats

so you are currently arguing against what is quite obviously factual

@betatesthighlander1: When he resurrects corpses, are they under his control? If you have feats that suggest he has control over the undead, then yes.

good to know

#12 Posted by DireDrill (2064 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1: I ... I don't ... I don't even know how to respond to such ridiculousness. BLIND FIGHTING DOES NOT EQUAL ENHANCED SENSES!

#13 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1: I ... I don't ... I don't even know how to respond to such ridiculousness. BLIND FIGHTING DOES NOT EQUAL ENHANCED SENSES!

are you saying he's psychic?

because that is the only other thing that makes sense

at the very leas,t blindfighting means enhanced situational awareness, which is still enough for what I'm panning on

#14 Posted by Pokergeist (22307 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire: @betatesthighlander1: @diredrill: This is Esquires match to debate. no one else's. If Esquire is cleaver enough to call that as BS, then he will. What is the point of a match of debating skills if someone barges in adding their input?

#15 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire: @betatesthighlander1: @diredrill: This is Esquires match to debate. no one else's. If Esquire is cleaver enough to call that as BS, then he will. What is the point of a match of debating skills if someone barges in adding their input?

okay then, suits me just fine

any idea where the guy has been? I would love to see where the debate would go from here!

#16 Posted by Pokergeist (22307 posts) - - Show Bio

okay then, suits me just fine

any idea where the guy has been? I would love to see where the debate would go from here!

He might have disappeared again.... he does that from time to time.

#17 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1 said:

okay then, suits me just fine

any idea where the guy has been? I would love to see where the debate would go from here!

He might have disappeared again.... he does that from time to time.

according to his profile, he posted like 4 hours ago

#18 Posted by Esquire (3742 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1: @jokergeist

Sorry for being MIA, my quick family vacation blossomed into a family emergency and I've been away from my computer for the last few days. I've been on briefly with my phone, and I should be able to get to my computer tomorrow and get a response up sometime in the next day. My deepest apologies for the delay.

#19 Edited by Jokergeist (4898 posts) - - Show Bio
#20 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire said:

@betatesthighlander1: @jokergeist

Sorry for being MIA, my quick family vacation blossomed into a family emergency and I've been away from my computer for the last few days. I've been on briefly with my phone, and I should be able to get to my computer tomorrow and get a response up sometime in the next day. My deepest apologies for the delay.

sorry about your family

still, I'm excited about continuing this

#21 Edited by Esquire (3742 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1:

yeah, but we do have the sonic screwdriver, one of the big uses of that tool is screwing up the technology of others, so we should at least be able to impede your gadgets that you made.

Two problems: One, in all of the Doctor Who I've watched, I've never seen the Screwdriver interact with technology more than a few inches away. The Doctor always gets right up next to whatever he's hacking or messing with, which is a huge disadvantage when the things you'll be trying to get close to are shooting at you. Two, I have Madison Jeffries. His power is basically telekinesis and total control when it comes to technology. So the Sonic Screwdriver can be shut down with a thought, or turned against your own team. Or, most likely, he'll steal it with a combination of technopathy and teleportation (via his suit), which will help him and Forge to build even faster. But no matter what, the Screwdriver is technology, which means it won't be of much use against my technopathic team.

hmmm, a good point, but I should point out that Evil Ernie is also a telepath he hears (whether he wants to or not) the surface thoughts of all around him, combine that with Xanatos's well-known planning abilities, we should have some sort of advantage as far as discerning the thoughts of the other team

According to my research, after he was resurrected Ernie's telepathy only worked on the dead. Is that accurate? Either way, every second your team spends waiting for Xanatos to finish a plan is another second that Forge can be building at superspeed. Every delay costs your team and gives mine even more advantages, thanks to the creative nature of my abilities.

hmm, well, Xanatos should be able to bust through a door just fine, as should Evil Ernie

Xanatos will be hampered by Jeffries' powers in an attempt to delay your team. Madison will get him in between Ernie and the door, and then slow him enough that he can't break through it. With reinforcements strengthened psionically every moment, the door will hold for precious seconds while Xanatos is held back from breaking it down. By the time Ernie takes over, it should be sufficiently reinforced to resist even his super strength for a few precious seconds. Here's Jeffries, (the one in the brown shirt), almost instantly raising up a pretty thick metal wall. In the seconds it takes for Ernie to see Xanatos isn't getting through, shove him aside, and start attacking the door, Madison can have several feet of metal reinforcing it. Ernie will still get through, sure, but every second is another second for Madison and Forge to build things.

uhhhhh, you are not going to have time for that. I have guys who can just fly in there and shoot your trio, a quick attack will make it fairly easy for us to get to y'all

Perhaps I'm overestimating how much I can do before you get in, but I think you're underestimating just how good my team is at building things. Jeffries is fast. Here he is transmuting his robot into a submarine in an instant.

This shows that he can build complicated things in mere moments. Forge builds extremely advanced technology in short periods of time, and here he's building relatively simple things, most of which he's built in the past, and he has superspeed shoes for faster creating as well as a Legion Flight Ring to help him retrieve materials as quickly as possible. He should be able to build a targeting system for the gatling gun by the time Jeffries returns from his teleporting. I can give you scans of Madison transmuting weapons instantly from normal metals, so he should have no trouble building more weapons to go along with the gatling gun.

So this gives my team several seconds to create things that Forge already know how to build, specifically the power dampener. First, Forge and Jeffries will build that power remover I mentioned earlier. Forge has already built an extremely effective one in the past, and even has a weaker one integrated into his cyborg leg. To start, he and Jeffries will probably remove and upgrade the one from his leg, to save time building a whole new one.

So long story short, Jeffries is absurdly fast at building tech, and Forge has the experience and the superspeed to help Madison build everything I want in moments. With Xanatos and a reinforced door delaying your team, I don't think it's at all farfetched to believe my team can do everything I said they would.

1. not sure how much that's gonna help

I've got a team whose whole point is building things, and I have an item that lets me do it faster. It makes me better at the main thing I'm good at. Of course it helps.

2. could I get some feats for how her powers actually work?

  • She was able to protect Cyclops telepathically from Cassandra Nova's psychic detection and attacks, so she should be able to block Evil Ernie's telepathy even if it does work on the living.
  • She sees the future with enough precision that she can accurately predict what other people are going to say before they say it. She does this repeatedly throughout her appearances.
  • She was able to postcognitively view Magik's past and precognitively predict her future without Illyana even being present or even alive at the time.
  • Was able to predict an attack by Exodus and was smart enough to use Elixir's powers to fake her death before Exodus arrived.

3. that depends on you being able to survive the onslaught

I really don't see this being a problem, since I'm about to counter most of your ranged attacks and your team has to wade through a whole lot of weaponry before you can even think about harming my team in melee combat. Plus, Forge's cyborg parts can create a forcefield for defense and heal themselves if they're damaged, and the Penetraitor suit grants enhanced durability

so, immediately after you lock all of the doors, Evil Ernie is going to burst the doors down (sdo you think he's not strong enough?)

I intend to have Jeffries put Xanatos in Ernie's way, and I plan to have Jeffries massively reinforce the relevant door. So I think that Ernie will get through to my team eventually, but it will take him a fair amount of time to do so.

anyways, Taskmaster should be able to use his enhanced senses to discern the locations of you guys

Blindfighting doesn't require enhanced senses, at least not of the sort that would allow you to detect my team several rooms away. Batman and Connor Hawke can fight quite effectively while blinded, for example, and they're both humans with no super powers. Taskmaster's only superhuman aspect is his memory, which was enhanced by a serum. Other than that, he's peak human at most. He doesn't have enhanced senses like Wolverine or anything, and he has no feats of detecting things in similar fashion to what he needs to do here. He shouldn't be able to detect my team.

(or using Xanatos's sensors,

With his suit controlled by Jeffries, I'm not too worried about it sending you the data you want.

or using E's telepathy)

Assuming this actually works on the living, this would probably be your best bet. Unfortunately for you, not only is Blindfold immune to mindreading, she is also able to protect others from powerful telepathy, as shown against Cassandra Nova. So Ernie won't be able to detect my team, either. This leaves you with no enhanced senses, no technological senses, and no psionic senses. So your team won't even know where mine is to attack, giving me even more time to construct defenses.

anyways, Evil Ernie should be able to turn the 111 zombies to his own Thrall, considering he was previously able to resurrect corpses who had been dead for quite some time, anything dead seems to be his roaming ground

Seems legit, although my various defensive guns should tear right through the zombies. And what kind of range does Ernie's power have? Can he take over every zombie on the map from his starting location, or will he have to go track them down, giving me even more time to prepare?

anyways, right after that, we should be able to burst into the theater fairly easily

Again, Xanatos plus reinforcements make me believe that it won't be 'fairly easy.' Although we do agree that you'll break through pretty soon.

now, we're going to head that attack with Evil Ernie and his dead army, backed up by Taskmaster's and Xanatos's range attacks, weilding the Sonic screwdriver randomly messing with all of your guys' technology

Zombies will get torn apart by the enhanced gatling gun and the railguns. Remember, you're trying to send more than 100 people through a single doorway, so I can simply fire all of my weapons through the open door and take down your zombies by the dozens. Jeffries can get tech to perform at its best, so the gatling gun will be more effective than ever. Xanatos will be taken over by Jeffries, so he won't be doing any ranged attacking on my team. And the Sonic Screwdriver, if it hasn't already been taken by my teleporting technopath, will be removed or made useless by his techno-psionic abilities.

so, accuracy feats for taskmaster? some regaular accuracy feats and some Bullseye-style improvising

I'm not sure exactly what you consider "standard equipment" for Taskmaster. Would you please clarify what he's carrying? Jeffries will destroy all the firearms and explosives he has with him, or perhaps just redirect his bullets and grenades into the zombies around him.

Madison should be able to manipulate most anything Taskmaster can get his hands on, or even encase Tasky with walls made of scrap metal, which would keep him from doing anything until my team decides to deal with him.

(Credit to Dredeuced for some of the Jeffries scans.)

uhh, Xanatos also seems to have a targeting computer inside of his suit

Which just gives Jeffries an easier way to aim the exo-suit at Smiley. Xanatos is going to be useless against my team in combat. Jeffries has dozens upon dozens of feats where he controls various robots and techno-suits, it will be child's play for him to turn Xanatos against your team.

anyway, our ranged attacks should be able to kill at least one of your guys, who Evil Ernie should be able to resurrect (scans later, my phone's messing up), which will add one more member to our team while one is subtracted from yours and so on and so forth also, Ernie's dead Onez seem to have no major detraction from their abilities in life

Jeffries can use his powers to destroy most of your teams' ranged weaponry, or he can steal it with teleportation. Forge can steal it with flight. Jeffries will have no trouble surrounding my team with cover thick enough to block anything Taskmaster can throw. He can destroy or control Xanatos' suit with barely any effort. Realistically, your ranged attacks have no hope of hurting my team. This makes Ernie's resurrection power, nifty as it is, basically a non-factor here. And if one of my team does get wounded, then Jeffries can 'port us out or Forge can fly us out.

#22 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire:

I'm seeing this, not on a computer that agrees w/ comicvine very well right now, gonna respond in maybe a couple hours

#23 Edited by Esquire (3742 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1: Sounds great. I was just about to PM you to make sure you knew I had posted.

#24 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire said:

@betatesthighlander1: Sounds great. I was just about to PM you to make sure you knew I had posted.

(yes, I can mess with videos here, it's quotes I can't do much with)

#25 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

okay, let's (re)start this!

@esquire said:

@betatesthighlander1:

yeah, but we do have the sonic screwdriver, one of the big uses of that tool is screwing up the technology of others, so we should at least be able to impede your gadgets that you made.

Two problems: One, in all of the Doctor Who I've watched, I've never seen the Screwdriver interact with technology more than a few inches away. The Doctor always gets right up next to whatever he's hacking or messing with, which is a huge disadvantage when the things you'll be trying to get close to are shooting at you. Two, I have Madison Jeffries. His power is basically telekinesis and total control when it comes to technology. So the Sonic Screwdriver can be shut down with a thought, or turned against your own team. Or, most likely, he'll steal it with a combination of technopathy and teleportation (via his suit), which will help him and Forge to build even faster. But no matter what, the Screwdriver is technology, which means it won't be of much use against my technopathic team.

at the 45 second mark you can see him blowing up space-guns from at least twenty feet away

and the screwdriver is nothing close to terrestrial technology (as the Doctor stated) does Madison have feats against devices totally unlike anything on Earth?

@esquire said:

hmmm, a good point, but I should point out that Evil Ernie is also a telepath he hears (whether he wants to or not) the surface thoughts of all around him, combine that with Xanatos's well-known planning abilities, we should have some sort of advantage as far as discerning the thoughts of the other team

According to my research, after he was resurrected Ernie's telepathy only worked on the dead. Is that accurate? Either way, every second your team spends waiting for Xanatos to finish a plan is another second that Forge can be building at superspeed. Every delay costs your team and gives mine even more advantages, thanks to the creative nature of my abilities.

I don't think that's accurate

off the top of my head, I know that he made telepathic contact with a Human in the Revenge arc

I should point out that I have as much prep for planning as you

when is your team coming up with your plan if your immediately welding the doors shut?

@esquire said:

hmm, well, Xanatos should be able to bust through a door just fine, as should Evil Ernie

Xanatos will be hampered by Jeffries' powers in an attempt to delay your team. Madison will get him in between Ernie and the door, and then slow him enough that he can't break through it. With reinforcements strengthened psionically every moment, the door will hold for precious seconds while Xanatos is held back from breaking it down. By the time Ernie takes over, it should be sufficiently reinforced to resist even his super strength for a few precious seconds. Here's Jeffries, (the one in the brown shirt), almost instantly raising up a pretty thick metal wall. In the seconds it takes for Ernie to see Xanatos isn't getting through, shove him aside, and start attacking the door, Madison can have several feet of metal reinforcing it. Ernie will still get through, sure, but every second is another second for Madison and Forge to build things.

dude, Ernie is pretty big on just jumping into the action

I think he'd just smash the door as soon as it was tampered with

and, if your suggesting Madison physically tries to stop Ernie, good luck

just punching a mech. he does this a lot, come to to think of it

@esquire said:


uhhhhh, you are not going to have time for that. I have guys who can just fly in there and shoot your trio, a quick attack will make it fairly easy for us to get to y'all

Perhaps I'm overestimating how much I can do before you get in, but I think you're underestimating just how good my team is at building things. Jeffries is fast. Here he is transmuting his robot into a submarine in an instant.

This shows that he can build complicated things in mere moments. Forge builds extremely advanced technology in short periods of time, and here he's building relatively simple things, most of which he's built in the past, and he has superspeed shoes for faster creating as well as a Legion Flight Ring to help him retrieve materials as quickly as possible. He should be able to build a targeting system for the gatling gun by the time Jeffries returns from his teleporting. I can give you scans of Madison transmuting weapons instantly from normal metals, so he should have no trouble building more weapons to go along with the gatling gun.

So this gives my team several seconds to create things that Forge already know how to build, specifically the power dampener. First, Forge and Jeffries will build that power remover I mentioned earlier. Forge has already built an extremely effective one in the past, and even has a weaker one integrated into his cyborg leg. To start, he and Jeffries will probably remove and upgrade the one from his leg, to save time building a whole new one.

So long story short, Jeffries is absurdly fast at building tech, and Forge has the experience and the superspeed to help Madison build everything I want in moments. With Xanatos and a reinforced door delaying your team, I don't think it's at all farfetched to believe my team can do everything I said they would.

not sure about that feat as far as transmutation goes, since he clearly states that it's his robot, we could easily assume that he'd designed iut specifically to turn into vehicles

got any feats for him transforming something he just found?

@esquire said:

1. not sure how much that's gonna help

I've got a team whose whole point is building things, and I have an item that lets me do it faster. It makes me better at the main thing I'm good at. Of course it helps.

can I have feats for this item?

@esquire said:

2. could I get some feats for how her powers actually work?

  • She was able to protect Cyclops telepathically from Cassandra Nova's psychic detection and attacks, so she should be able to block Evil Ernie's telepathy even if it does work on the living.
  • She sees the future with enough precision that she can accurately predict what other people are going to say before they say it. She does this repeatedly throughout her appearances.
  • She was able to postcognitively view Magik's past and precognitively predict her future without Illyana even being present or even alive at the time.
  • Was able to predict an attack by Exodus and was smart enough to use Elixir's powers to fake her death before Exodus arrived.

oh yeah, I guess that's impressive

but still kinda nebulous on how she does that (does she have to concentrate or anything?)

scans?

@esquire said:

3. that depends on you being able to survive the onslaught

I really don't see this being a problem, since I'm about to counter most of your ranged attacks and your team has to wade through a whole lot of weaponry before you can even think about harming my team in melee combat. Plus, Forge's cyborg parts can create a forcefield for defense and heal themselves if they're damaged, and the Penetraitor suit grants enhanced durability

wait, how are you planning on countering my ranged attacks?

and the sonic screwdriver is going to seriously fudge up any of your tech beyond repair, so I'm not seeing that as being way to relevant

@esquire said:

so, immediately after you lock all of the doors, Evil Ernie is going to burst the doors down (sdo you think he's not strong enough?)

I intend to have Jeffries put Xanatos in Ernie's way, and I plan to have Jeffries massively reinforce the relevant door. So I think that Ernie will get through to my team eventually, but it will take him a fair amount of time to do so.

okay, sorry, could we get some feats of Jeffries taking over machines specifically belonging to others?

anyways, I doubt he'd be able to get in there without Ernie immediately attacking the guy

@esquire said:

anyways, Taskmaster should be able to use his enhanced senses to discern the locations of you guys

Blindfighting doesn't require enhanced senses, at least not of the sort that would allow you to detect my team several rooms away. Batman and Connor Hawke can fight quite effectively while blinded, for example, and they're both humans with no super powers. Taskmaster's only superhuman aspect is his memory, which was enhanced by a serum. Other than that, he's peak human at most. He doesn't have enhanced senses like Wolverine or anything, and he has no feats of detecting things in similar fashion to what he needs to do here. He shouldn't be able to detect my team.

how do you propose these people fight blind without having other more acute than usual?

because, that's the only thing that really makes any sense.

anywyas, in Marvel, people like Stick(who has no powers) can be seen using enhanced senses, and taskmaster can copy any ability he observes, so saying that he doesn't(considering how little he needs his eyes) is a bit far-fetched IMO

@esquire said:

(or using Xanatos's sensors,

With his suit controlled by Jeffries, I'm not too worried about it sending you the data you want.

or using E's telepathy)

Assuming this actually works on the living, this would probably be your best bet. Unfortunately for you, not only is Blindfold immune to mindreading, she is also able to protect others from powerful telepathy, as shown against Cassandra Nova. So Ernie won't be able to detect my team, either. This leaves you with no enhanced senses, no technological senses, and no psionic senses. So your team won't even know where mine is to attack, giving me even more time to construct defenses.

sorry, for something that would completely neutralize one of my own, as you said, I'm going to need scans

again, I would like some scans that showcase how Blindfold's powers actually work

@esquire said:

anyways, Evil Ernie should be able to turn the 111 zombies to his own Thrall, considering he was previously able to resurrect corpses who had been dead for quite some time, anything dead seems to be his roaming ground

Seems legit, although my various defensive guns should tear right through the zombies. And what kind of range does Ernie's power have? Can he take over every zombie on the map from his starting location, or will he have to go track them down, giving me even more time to prepare?

he shouldn't really have to track them down, as I showed previously

he just commands and they listen

@esquire said:

anyways, right after that, we should be able to burst into the theater fairly easily

Again, Xanatos plus reinforcements make me believe that it won't be 'fairly easy.' Although we do agree that you'll break through pretty soon.

not entirely sure how much I understand the first sentence of that statement

@esquire said:

now, we're going to head that attack with Evil Ernie and his dead army, backed up by Taskmaster's and Xanatos's range attacks, weilding the Sonic screwdriver randomly messing with all of your guys' technology

Zombies will get torn apart by the enhanced gatling gun and the railguns. Remember, you're trying to send more than 100 people through a single doorway, so I can simply fire all of my weapons through the open door and take down your zombies by the dozens. Jeffries can get tech to perform at its best, so the gatling gun will be more effective than ever. Xanatos will be taken over by Jeffries, so he won't be doing any ranged attacking on my team. And the Sonic Screwdriver, if it hasn't already been taken by my teleporting technopath, will be removed or made useless by his techno-psionic abilities.

wait, how did that scan evidence the ability to mess with the sonic screwdriver?

because it doesn't seem to by the dialogue and pictures

@esquire said:


so, accuracy feats for taskmaster? some regaular accuracy feats and some Bullseye-style improvising

I'm not sure exactly what you consider "standard equipment" for Taskmaster. Would you please clarify what he's carrying? Jeffries will destroy all the firearms and explosives he has with him, or perhaps just redirect his bullets and grenades into the zombies around him.

Madison should be able to manipulate most anything Taskmaster can get his hands on, or even encase Tasky with walls made of scrap metal, which would keep him from doing anything until my team decides to deal with him.

(Credit to Dredeuced for some of the Jeffries scans.)

well, the problem there is that Taskmaster is significantly faster than anything you've shown for Madison

Speed blitzing a bullet-timer:

so, the way I see it, Tasky will be moving far to fast for Jeffries to do much of anything to him before Jeffries gets shot

(both the scans showed him effecting totally stationary weaponry, you've shown little to suggest he could manipulate stuff in the middle of movement)

@esquire said:

uhh, Xanatos also seems to have a targeting computer inside of his suit

Which just gives Jeffries an easier way to aim the exo-suit at Smiley. Xanatos is going to be useless against my team in combat. Jeffries has dozens upon dozens of feats where he controls various robots and techno-suits, it will be child's play for him to turn Xanatos against your team.

would you mind posting some of these feats?

@esquire said:

anyway, our ranged attacks should be able to kill at least one of your guys, who Evil Ernie should be able to resurrect (scans later, my phone's messing up), which will add one more member to our team while one is subtracted from yours and so on and so forth also, Ernie's dead Onez seem to have no major detraction from their abilities in life

Jeffries can use his powers to destroy most of your teams' ranged weaponry, or he can steal it with teleportation. Forge can steal it with flight. Jeffries will have no trouble surrounding my team with cover thick enough to block anything Taskmaster can throw. He can destroy or control Xanatos' suit with barely any effort. Realistically, your ranged attacks have no hope of hurting my team. This makes Ernie's resurrection power, nifty as it is, basically a non-factor here. And if one of my team does get wounded, then Jeffries can 'port us out or Forge can fly us out.

yeah, Jeffries is not going to steal anything of Taskmaster, the guy's reflexes are insane

if Jeffries tries anything like that, Taskmaster is going to destroy his throat, Jeffries will become a memeber of the dead, and we will have the technopath on our team

and we have the sonic screwdriver, a piece of technology unlike anything any of you guys have ever seen(I would think,although you might have something to suggest otherwise) that can wreck essentially anything any of your guys make

#26 Edited by Jokergeist (4898 posts) - - Show Bio
@betatesthighlander1 said:
@esquire said:

1. not sure how much that's gonna help

I've got a team whose whole point is building things, and I have an item that lets me do it faster. It makes me better at the main thing I'm good at. Of course it helps.

can I have feats for this item?

The Journeyman's Boots boost its wearer's movement speed to superhuman levels, useful for dodging attacks and quick travel. As you can see, it allows the wearer to run up walls and across water. Falling from great heights will not damage the wearer.

Skip to 0:20

#27 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1 said:
@esquire said:

1. not sure how much that's gonna help

I've got a team whose whole point is building things, and I have an item that lets me do it faster. It makes me better at the main thing I'm good at. Of course it helps.

can I have feats for this item?

The Journeyman's Boots boost its wearer's movement speed to superhuman levels, useful for dodging attacks and quick travel. As you can see, it allows the wearer to run up walls and across water. Falling from great heights will not damage the wearer.

Skip to 0:20

hmmm, they seem to allow faster running, but do they allow the wearer to actually accomplish manual tasks at any enhanced speed?

#28 Edited by Jokergeist (4898 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1: Frankly, no. If the wearer has to move around a lot to accomplish those manual tasks, then they help a bit. But the boots mainly enhance running and maneuverability.

#29 Edited by Esquire (3742 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1

at the 45 second mark you can see him blowing up space-guns from at least twenty feet away and the screwdriver is nothing close to terrestrial technology (as the Doctor stated) does Madison have feats against devices totally unlike anything on Earth?

He's manipulated tech from other dimensions, alien technology, and mystically guarded technology. But even if for some reason he can't control the screwdriver, he can still manipulate the metals and plastics that it's made of and destroy it that way. The screwdriver has been destroyed several times over the course of the show, so Jeffries shouldn't have trouble doing so.

I don't think that's accurate off the top of my head, I know that he made telepathic contact with a Human in the Revenge arc

Good enough for me. It looks like I was wrong. Although I should point out that Madison Jeffries is immune to even Cable's telepathy, so Ernie shouldn't be able to read his mind, regardless. (Also a decent feat for how fast he builds, as he's making robots faster than Cable's Underground can destroy them.)

I should point out that I have as much prep for planning as you when is your team coming up with your plan if your immediately welding the doors shut?

Forge and Jeffries have worked together in the past, and both are good at strategy and technology. My team is built around building things and creating defensive perimeters, so taking the best defensive position at the start of the match is obvious. While Jeffries is fusing all of the doors to save time, Forge is plenty smart enough to think of making a targeting system for the only weapon he has available. Jeffries will be back in a couple of seconds, and they can finish any necessary planning then, while they're building things. But really, my plan is very straightforward and obvious. Take the best defensive position and build defenses that my team has built before, starting with the defense that is already there.

dude, Ernie is pretty big on just jumping into the action I think he'd just smash the door as soon as it was tampered with

Even assuming he knows which way to jump, is he faster than Xanatos? Because Jeffries will use the Exo-Armor to place Xanatos in between Ernie and my team.

and, if your suggesting Madison physically tries to stop Ernie, good luck

Jeffries will only be attempting that by keeping Xanatos in between Ernie and the door. Is Ernie really going to immediately punch out one of his two teammates? If not, he'll be delayed a little bit while trying to get David out of the way.

not sure about that feat as far as transmutation goes, since he clearly states that it's his robot, we could easily assume that he'd designed iut specifically to turn into vehicles

I guess you could assume that, but it would be wrong. Jeffries makes his robot out of whatever he finds lying around, it's really just a bunch of scrap that he manipulates into doing whatever he wants it to do. It's not 'designed' to do anything except let him phase inside of it. At most, it comes default with super strength. He basically makes up what he wants it to do while he's fighting, and transforms it into whatever he needs to win. As far as I know, that's the only time he's made one into a submarine. You're baselessly trying to discredit feats because you have no real counter to them. But if it makes you happy, another speed feat: He destroys a sentinel and builds his robot out of the pieces, all in the time it takes him to fall to the ground. On the next page, he instantly transforms that suit into a spear for one of his comrades to throw.

got any feats for him transforming something he just found?

Yes indeed. Transmuting the debris of an exploding airplane into a life raft, making an armor out of minerals lining a mine, and making suits from the metals in a wall.

oh yeah, I guess that's impressive but still kinda nebulous on how she does that (does she have to concentrate or anything?)

No, she just sees things differently from everyone else. She doesn't have eyes, so she sees the past and the present and the future with her mind. It makes her perception so different from normal people's views that telepaths can't read her mind, since it's so alien and chaotic. She just sees things.

wait, how are you planning on countering my ranged attacks?

By destroying all of your ranged weapons and building walls around my team.

and the sonic screwdriver is going to seriously fudge up any of your tech beyond repair, so I'm not seeing that as being way to relevant

Jeffries has transmuted alien metals, metals from alternate dimensions, enchanted metals, and more. He should have no trouble manipulating the screwdriver. And even if he somehow couldn't, which there is really no basis for, your team won't be able to use the screwdriver effectively. Assuming that the Doctor has been using the sonic screwdriver as long as he's been piloting the TARDIS, he has been using the screwdriver for nine hundred years. Your character got one month of practice. That means that your team has 0.0001% of the experience with the screwdriver that the Doctor does. I don't see why you're expecting to replicate any of his feats with it, much less the better ones. As you yourself said, it's technology far beyond anything terrestrial. Why do you think that your characters, two of whom aren't very technologically minded, are going to be able to use it effectively? That seems rather implausible.

okay, sorry, could we get some feats of Jeffries taking over machines specifically belonging to others?

If you'd like. Takes over the first Box robot and traps him with his own arms, manipulates and generally screws with Death Metal, and pulls apart an enemy robot to make a suit for himself, which he also did in the Sentinel scans I posted earlier.

how do you propose these people fight blind without having other more acute than usual?

They're more aware of their immediate surroundings. It's more about paying more attention to your ears and your touch receptors, which give you indications of where your opponent is and what he's doing. But that doesn't translate to sensing opponents on the other side of a mansion with closed doors in between.

anywyas, in Marvel, people like Stick(who has no powers) can be seen using enhanced senses, and taskmaster can copy any ability he observes, so saying that he doesn't(considering how little he needs his eyes) is a bit far-fetched IMO

Stick had telepathy, and if I remember correctly he could manipulate Chi, which was how he life-drained enemies. But regardless, there has never been any evidence that Taskmaster has a radar sense. It seems that the only evidence you have is blind fighting, and plenty of characters without enhanced senses can do that. It's not proof of Tasky having enhanced senses, and he's never shown the ability to locate people like you need him to do here.

sorry, for something that would completely neutralize one of my own, as you said, I'm going to need scans

I think it was during Whedon's run on Astonishing, which I have in full. I'll see if I can grab the scans.

he shouldn't really have to track them down, as I showed previously he just commands and they listen

Which is all well and good, and I'm not disputing that he can command the zombies on this map. The problem is, that scan only shows him controlling the dead within a few feet of him. The zombies on this map will be spread throughout the entire mansion, which is very large. Will Ernie be able to control the ones on the other side of the mansion? I want to know if he'll actually be able to summon all 111 at once when many of them won't be within range of his voice.

wait, how did that scan evidence the ability to mess with the sonic screwdriver?

That scan didn't, it shows how Jeffries can get the maximum output out of machines, which will make the gatling gun more effective. I didn't word things very clearly. See the first panel:

well, the problem there is that Taskmaster is significantly faster than anything you've shown for Madison so, the way I see it, Tasky will be moving far to fast for Jeffries to do much of anything to him before Jeffries gets shot

Double time tears Taskmaster's body apart, and he hasn't done it in several years. But it shouldn't matter, anyway. Jeffries has taken over whole complexes of robots and such, so he should easily have the range to destroy Taskmaster's weapons before Tasky is even through the door. And he'll also be safe behind metal walls before your team has broken through the door, so bullets won't be getting to him, anyway. And his Penetraitor suit has tanked things like Wolverine's claws without significant damage, so he shouldn't be killed by bullets even if Taskmaster's guns were intact, he could get around the walls, and he was able to shoot accurately while trying to avoid all of my defensive guns. With so many things that prevent him from shooting Jeffries, I'm not particularly worried about that.

yeah, Jeffries is not going to steal anything of Taskmaster, the guy's reflexes are insane. if Jeffries tries anything like that, Taskmaster is going to destroy his throat, Jeffries will become a memeber of the dead, and we will have the technopath on our team

Luckily, I have a precog on my team. So she'll let Jeffries know that he should use his powers to destroy Tasky's gear instead. I would still like you to specify what you consider to be Taskmaster's standard gear, by the way. And again, the Penetraitor Suit increases Jeffries' durability enough that he wouldn't get oneshotted by Masters, anyway.

and we have the sonic screwdriver, a piece of technology unlike anything any of you guys have ever seen(I would think,although you might have something to suggest otherwise) that can wreck essentially anything any of your guys make

Which is being wielded by someone who has nothing like the experience or intelligence necessary to replicate the Doctor's feats. The only one of your team with really impressive intelligence is Xanatos, and he's trapped inside of his exo-suit. Taskmaster and Ernie aren't anywhere close to as smart and technologically savvy as the Doctor. And Jeffries can transmute the screwdriver into its basic components, anyway.

And one last note on the speed at which my team can build things, if it's still in doubt. Jeffries can mind-link with people and combine their thoughts with his transmutation to build things. With Forge's inherent understanding of how to build things, and the speed at which I've shown he can build, my team can build up my defenses in moments. (And no, Roger Bochs has no mental powers. He is a non-powered human.)

#30 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire said:

@betatesthighlander1

at the 45 second mark you can see him blowing up space-guns from at least twenty feet away and the screwdriver is nothing close to terrestrial technology (as the Doctor stated) does Madison have feats against devices totally unlike anything on Earth?

He's manipulated tech from other dimensions, alien technology, and mystically guarded technology. But even if for some reason he can't control the screwdriver, he can still manipulate the metals and plastics that it's made of and destroy it that way. The screwdriver has been destroyed several times over the course of the show, so Jeffries shouldn't have trouble doing so.

hmmm, could I get examples of that specific stuff?

I guess Gallifreyan technology is pretty unique to the universe, and i'm not sure if it's even made out of metals and plastics as we understand them

@esquire said:

I don't think that's accurate off the top of my head, I know that he made telepathic contact with a Human in the Revenge arc

Good enough for me. It looks like I was wrong. Although I should point out that Madison Jeffries is immune to even Cable's telepathy, so Ernie shouldn't be able to read his mind, regardless. (Also a decent feat for how fast he builds, as he's making robots faster than Cable's Underground can destroy them.)

does Cable have very impressive telepathy feats?

I'm nit trying to load a question here, I really have a fairly vague idea of how good Cable is at telepathy

@esquire said:


I should point out that I have as much prep for planning as you when is your team coming up with your plan if your immediately welding the doors shut?

Forge and Jeffries have worked together in the past, and both are good at strategy and technology. My team is built around building things and creating defensive perimeters, so taking the best defensive position at the start of the match is obvious. While Jeffries is fusing all of the doors to save time, Forge is plenty smart enough to think of making a targeting system for the only weapon he has available. Jeffries will be back in a couple of seconds, and they can finish any necessary planning then, while they're building things. But really, my plan is very straightforward and obvious. Take the best defensive position and build defenses that my team has built before, starting with the defense that is already there.

wait, not entirely sure two Jeffiries is going to think and accomplish the door-fusing before Evil Ernie is already out and atacking

your plan depends on basic knowledge on the make-up of the building and knowing where my guys are.

additionally, the doors in this arena show no sign of even being weldable

how do you know they are?

@esquire said:

dude, Ernie is pretty big on just jumping into the action I think he'd just smash the door as soon as it was tampered with

Even assuming he knows which way to jump, is he faster than Xanatos? Because Jeffries will use the Exo-Armor to place Xanatos in between Ernie and my team.

I believe that he is faster than Xanatos, yes

@esquire said:

and, if your suggesting Madison physically tries to stop Ernie, good luck

Jeffries will only be attempting that by keeping Xanatos in between Ernie and the door. Is Ernie really going to immediately punch out one of his two teammates? If not, he'll be delayed a little bit while trying to get David out of the way.

you assume that Xanatos will get to the door before Ernie

and yeah, Ernie would probably kill and subsequently re-animate a teammate if they showed any signs of mutiny

@esquire said:

not sure about that feat as far as transmutation goes, since he clearly states that it's his robot, we could easily assume that he'd designed iut specifically to turn into vehicles

I guess you could assume that, but it would be wrong. Jeffries makes his robot out of whatever he finds lying around, it's really just a bunch of scrap that he manipulates into doing whatever he wants it to do. It's not 'designed' to do anything except let him phase inside of it. At most, it comes default with super strength. He basically makes up what he wants it to do while he's fighting, and transforms it into whatever he needs to win. As far as I know, that's the only time he's made one into a submarine. You're baselessly trying to discredit feats because you have no real counter to them. But if it makes you happy, another speed feat: He destroys a sentinel and builds his robot out of the pieces, all in the time it takes him to fall to the ground. On the next page, he instantly transforms that suit into a spear for one of his comrades to throw.

look, man, I'm sorry if I offended you with my coomment

I'm not very familiar with teh character and i'm trying to find out the specifics of his powers

I'm sorry

@esquire said:

got any feats for him transforming something he just found?

Yes indeed. Transmuting the debris of an exploding airplane into a life raft, making an armor out of minerals lining a mine, and making suits from the metals in a wall.

okay, yeah, that's pretty impressive

@esquire said:

oh yeah, I guess that's impressive but still kinda nebulous on how she does that (does she have to concentrate or anything?)

No, she just sees things differently from everyone else. She doesn't have eyes, so she sees the past and the present and the future with her mind. It makes her perception so different from normal people's views that telepaths can't read her mind, since it's so alien and chaotic. She just sees things.

hmm, EE is no stranger to strange and chaotic places and concepts

and how does she use her seeing power to block other telepathic attacks?(not trying to load a question here, just trying to understand)

@esquire said:

wait, how are you planning on countering my ranged attacks?

By destroying all of your ranged weapons and building walls around my team.

does Jeffries require line-of-sight?(all of the examples I've seen so far involve that)

if so, I think Taskmaster has good enough reflexes to counter that before his weapons are destroyed

@esquire said:

and the sonic screwdriver is going to seriously fudge up any of your tech beyond repair, so I'm not seeing that as being way to relevant

Jeffries has transmuted alien metals, metals from alternate dimensions, enchanted metals, and more. He should have no trouble manipulating the screwdriver. And even if he somehow couldn't, which there is really no basis for, your team won't be able to use the screwdriver effectively. Assuming that the Doctor has been using the sonic screwdriver as long as he's been piloting the TARDIS, he has been using the screwdriver for nine hundred years. Your character got one month of practice. That means that your team has 0.0001% of the experience with the screwdriver that the Doctor does. I don't see why you're expecting to replicate any of his feats with it, much less the better ones. As you yourself said, it's technology far beyond anything terrestrial. Why do you think that your characters, two of whom aren't very technologically minded, are going to be able to use it effectively? That seems rather implausible.

ahh yes, but, I have two counters to that

1. David Xanatos operates a multi-billion-dollar corporation that deals with time traveling jewels, nanobot swarms the size of Australia, sentient machines, creating cyborgs, genetically modifying humans to give them supwerpowers, and other such impossibilities; I think he'd be able to get a basic instruction guide

2. Taskmaster can imitate anything he sees someone else doing, so all he has to do is track down some security footage that involves the doctor (or watch some Doctor Who if this is outside the DW Universe) and he'll know how to use the Sonic Screwdriver with decent proficiency

@esquire said:

okay, sorry, could we get some feats of Jeffries taking over machines specifically belonging to others?

If you'd like. Takes over the first Box robot and traps him with his own arms, manipulates and generally screws with Death Metal, and pulls apart an enemy robot to make a suit for himself, which he also did in the Sentinel scans I posted earlier.

okay, you have me convinced he could take over Xanatos's suit

however, he seems to require concentration and line-of-site to do that sort of thing, both of which he is unlikely to get when Evil Ernie and Taskmaster are both trying to kill him.

@esquire said:

how do you propose these people fight blind without having other more acute than usual?

They're more aware of their immediate surroundings. It's more about paying more attention to your ears and your touch receptors, which give you indications of where your opponent is and what he's doing. But that doesn't translate to sensing opponents on the other side of a mansion with closed doors in between.

building and operating heavy machinery tends to be...loud

@esquire said:

anywyas, in Marvel, people like Stick(who has no powers) can be seen using enhanced senses, and taskmaster can copy any ability he observes, so saying that he doesn't(considering how little he needs his eyes) is a bit far-fetched IMO

Stick had telepathy, and if I remember correctly he could manipulate Chi, which was how he life-drained enemies. But regardless, there has never been any evidence that Taskmaster has a radar sense. It seems that the only evidence you have is blind fighting, and plenty of characters without enhanced senses can do that. It's not proof of Tasky having enhanced senses, and he's never shown the ability to locate people like you need him to do here

again, heavy machinery is rarely discrete

@esquire said:

sorry, for something that would completely neutralize one of my own, as you said, I'm going to need scans

I think it was during Whedon's run on Astonishing, which I have in full. I'll see if I can grab the scans.

okay

@esquire said:

he shouldn't really have to track them down, as I showed previously he just commands and they listen

Which is all well and good, and I'm not disputing that he can command the zombies on this map. The problem is, that scan only shows him controlling the dead within a few feet of him. The zombies on this map will be spread throughout the entire mansion, which is very large. Will Ernie be able to control the ones on the other side of the mansion? I want to know if he'll actually be able to summon all 111 at once when many of them won't be within range of his voice.

it's not exactly a vocal thing per se

he commands fairly large armies of zombies(seventy million was a number given) on a fairly regular basis

and they are, more or less, capable of operating by themselves
@esquire said:

wait, how did that scan evidence the ability to mess with the sonic screwdriver?

That scan didn't, it shows how Jeffries can get the maximum output out of machines, which will make the gatling gun more effective. I didn't word things very clearly. See the first panel:

oh, sorry about that

however, most Gatling guns are designed to fire at an ideal rate, so messing with one might totally sap your ammunition

@esquire said:


well, the problem there is that Taskmaster is significantly faster than anything you've shown for Madison so, the way I see it, Tasky will be moving far to fast for Jeffries to do much of anything to him before Jeffries gets shot

Double time tears Taskmaster's body apart, and he hasn't done it in several years. But it shouldn't matter, anyway. Jeffries has taken over whole complexes of robots and such, so he should easily have the range to destroy Taskmaster's weapons before Tasky is even through the door. And he'll also be safe behind metal walls before your team has broken through the door, so bullets won't be getting to him, anyway. And his Penetraitor suit has tanked things like Wolverine's claws without significant damage, so he shouldn't be killed by bullets even if Taskmaster's guns were intact, he could get around the walls, and he was able to shoot accurately while trying to avoid all of my defensive guns. With so many things that prevent him from shooting Jeffries, I'm not particularly worried about that.

what was that about Taskmaster and double time?

complexes of robots? all at once?

what kind of range feats does Jeffries have that compete with Taskmaster's?

hmm, can't find much for the Penetraitor suit, but it seems to have some rather open joints

as for his defenses, Tasky's CA shield should protect him well enough to get shots out (need I show more scans of him firing while evading?)

@esquire said:

at, Taskmaster is going to destroy his throat, Jeffries will become a memeber of the dead, and we will have the technopath on our team

Luckily, I have a precog on my team. So she'll let Jeffries know that he should use his powers to destroy Tasky's gear instead. I would still like you to specify what you consider to be Taskmaster's standard gear, by the way. And again, the Penetraitor Suit increases Jeffries' durability enough that he wouldn't get oneshotted by Masters, anyway.

If he consults Blindfold before teleporting out, that's going to give my team plenty of time (they're all pretty fast, and these rooms seem pretty small) additionally, her speech if peppered with enough purple prose for it to be fair to assume it would take a little while even factoring in her ability to predict the questions of others, so, if you take this precaution, you lose your temporal edge

swords, guns, billy club, arrows, his shield, bow, arrows, lasso, assorted knives, energy claws, the wrist-energy thing that he has; that's what comes to mind at least

@esquire said:

and we have the sonic screwdriver, a piece of technology unlike anything any of you guys have ever seen(I would think,although you might have something to suggest otherwise) that can wreck essentially anything any of your guys make

Which is being wielded by someone who has nothing like the experience or intelligence necessary to replicate the Doctor's feats. The only one of your team with really impressive intelligence is Xanatos, and he's trapped inside of his exo-suit. Taskmaster and Ernie aren't anywhere close to as smart and technologically savvy as the Doctor. And Jeffries can transmute the screwdriver into its basic components, anyway.

again, Taskmaster can immitate any DW feat he sees

@esquire said:

And one last note on the speed at which my team can build things, if it's still in doubt. Jeffries can mind-link with people and combine their thoughts with his transmutation to build things. With Forge's inherent understanding of how to build things, and the speed at which I've shown he can build, my team can build up my defenses in moments. (And no, Roger Bochs has no mental powers. He is a non-powered human.)

okay, but my guys really just have to see Forge to kill him, and considering all the precious moments Jeffries takes to consult Blindfold, we should be able to do that before Jeffries manages to do his teleportation stuff (using all of EE's extra eyes and ears, finding the guys shouldn't be very difficult)

additional strategies from my team

as I mentioned earlier, we are coming in with the Grimorumn Arcanorum

we could certainly at least mess with your technology with a quick Fulminus venite!

as seen in S2E8; Vows

or a a quick coupleother spells we could name

#31 Posted by Jokergeist (4898 posts) - - Show Bio

additionally, the doors in this arena show no sign of even being weldable

how do you know they are?

The doors are made of ordinary materials. They're as weldable as any other metal door, and can be reinforced if done properly.

#32 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1 said:

additionally, the doors in this arena show no sign of even being weldable

how do you know they are?

The doors are made of ordinary materials. They're as weldable as any other metal door, and can be reinforced if done properly.

solid metal or wood with metal hinges?

also, how rusty are they at this point?

#33 Posted by Jokergeist (4898 posts) - - Show Bio
#34 Posted by DireDrill (2064 posts) - - Show Bio
#35 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio
#36 Posted by Esquire (3742 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1

hmmm, could I get examples of that specific stuff?

I've posted most of it already, but here's another example of Alien technology, where Jeffries absorbs an entire Alien complex into his armor, and then one where he absorbs alien materials into his Boxship:

I guess Gallifreyan technology is pretty unique to the universe, and i'm not sure if it's even made out of metals and plastics as we understand them

We know that Gallifrey has trees and rocks and volcanic activity and such, so it's not all that different from Earth. The Master was able to create his Laser Screwdriver after he'd gone to Earth, and the Halls of Sacrifice comic confirms that the Sonic Screwdriver has electrical components. This is backed up by that fact that it has needed to be recharged a few times over the course of the show. The Doctor has also created new versions of the screwdriver in the years since Gallifrey was destroyed in the Time War, so apparently Gallifreyan materials aren't necessary. I don't think it's at all far-fetched for Madison to manipulate the screwdriver.

does Cable have very impressive telepathy feats? I'm nit trying to load a question here, I really have a fairly vague idea of how good Cable is at telepathy

His raw power isn't all that impressive, (at least at that point), but he is a very skilled telepath. He's fought evenly with X-Man, for example.

your plan depends on basic knowledge on the make-up of the building and knowing where my guys are.

I have no need to know where your team is to establish a defensive perimeter, although Blindfold's telepathy, clairvoyance, and precog should let me know where you are regardless.

But you are correct, I have been assuming that our team has knowledge of the map. Upon rereading the OP, it seems that this is not the case. I'll ask Jokergeist if we get knowledge, but if we don't my strategy doesn't change much.

Strategy with no Knowledge:

Instead of teleporting to the room with the Gatling Gun, Jeffries will mind-link with Forge to build defenses in the Alley where we start. I'll build sonic cannons, railguns, and the Power Nullifier as in my original plans, and Jeffries will build walls for cover and reinforce the walls and doors around my location.

Since I don't know the layout of the map, Jeffries won't be able to teleport through the map to fuse the doors. But since I won't be teleporting to the Theater, my team is much further from yours and you still have no way of detecting me. This means that I should have plenty of time to make my defenses before your team stumbles onto mine.

So whether we have knowledge of the map or not, my plan stays basically the same.

additionally, the doors in this arena show no sign of even being weldable, how do you know they are?

Jokergeist confirmed that they were metal in the Tournament PM, and Jeffries can manipulate metal. I posted the scan earlier of him instantly creating a wall, and he can do that on both sides of the door, making them much thicker and unable to open. Your team can still break through them eventually, but it will cost you valuable time.

hmm, EE is no stranger to strange and chaotic places and concepts

Unless he's a more skilled telepath than Emma Frost, he's not going to have any luck reading her mind.

and how does she use her seeing power to block other telepathic attacks?(not trying to load a question here, just trying to understand)

She's not only a prescient, she's a telepath. She often reads other people's thoughts and has located people telepathically. Here's the scan of Blindfold protecting Scott from Cassandra Nova's mental powers. The Cassandra that Scott shoots isn't her real body, it's a psionic projection, so it's still Nova trying to get into Scott's mind. Worth noting is that in this same story arc, Nova stays invisible to Xavier's telepathy, mindrapes Wolverine and Cyclops, and takes control of Emma Frost, so she hasn't been nerfed for the purpose of the story or anything.

does Jeffries require line-of-sight?(all of the examples I've seen so far involve that)

Most of the time he uses his powers close up, but he isn't limited to line-of-sight. Here he pulls support beams from all around a crowded warehouse, controls every part of the Alpha Flight Danger Room even though he's outside of it, and detects the planet-killing bullet from Breakworld even though it's still way out it space.

There are other examples, like him absorbing entire buildings and such.

if so, I think Taskmaster has good enough reflexes to counter that before his weapons are destroyed

I've already posted a scan of Jeffries using his powers to affect a bullet being fired, (by Cable, who is a bullet-dodger himself). And how is Taskmaster planning to counter the fact that there are thick metal walls protecting my team? Quick-draw reflexes won't help him against defenses he can't shoot through.

1. David Xanatos operates a multi-billion-dollar corporation that deals with time traveling jewels, nanobot swarms the size of Australia, sentient machines, creating cyborgs, genetically modifying humans to give them supwerpowers, and other such impossibilities; I think he'd be able to get a basic instruction guide

Xanatos is smart, certainly, but the Doctor is one of the smartest characters in all of fiction, and he has 9 centuries of experience with this thing. Xanatos' corporation is Earth-bound, right? And there aren't any sonic screwdrivers on Earth. Nobody on Earth knows how they work. How is his corporation going to get access to information about it?

2. Taskmaster can imitate anything he sees someone else doing, so all he has to do is track down some security footage that involves the doctor (or watch some Doctor Who if this is outside the DW Universe) and he'll know how to use the Sonic Screwdriver with decent proficiency

Since characters and equipment from different universes are interacting, I assume this is some sort of combined universe. If that's the case, then the Doctor's existence is a closely guarded secret known by only a few random humans and the highest levels of the British government. Taskmaster won't know where to look for footage, and basically none of it exists, anyway. And I also question how legal that is for practicing with items, since it's basically training from another person.

@jokergeist When you get back from Comic Con, can you clarify how this universe works, and how practicing with items before the match works? Also, do we have any knowledge of the map before the match starts?

okay, you have me convinced he could take over Xanatos's suit. however, he seems to require concentration and line-of-site to do that sort of thing, both of which he is unlikely to get when Evil Ernie and Taskmaster are both trying to kill him.

All of those scans are of him in the middle of combat, and it doesn't seem to hinder him. He can destroy a Sentinel and create a suit while free-falling from an airplane. One mistake and he plunges to his death, but he doesn't have any trouble concentrating on the Sentinel. Jeffries manipulated things, including robots and suits, all the time in combat. He should have things even easier here, since he's protected by thick metal walls and the defensive guns he's mounted on and around them. He also has Forge protecting him with the Power Nullifier. He can even use his powers to totally bullet-proof the Penetraitor suit to protect himself from Taskmaster if it's that much of an issue, which it shouldn't be. He has plenty of feats during stressful combat situations like the one he's in here.

building and operating heavy machinery tends to be...loud

I can only think of one instance where sounds have been applied to Jeffries' transmutation, and that was when he was squishing up a car into a robot. Most of the time he creates it in midair and all the pieces kind of mesh together. He does it around people most of the time, and nobody ever comments on it being loud. He also transmutes quite often while he or others are carrying on a conversation, and it's not loud enough to drown out their words. I don't think his manner of building is particularly noisy.

it's not exactly a vocal thing per se. he commands fairly large armies of zombies(seventy million was a number given) on a fairly regular basis

I'm convinced. If he can control 70 million zombies, his range is easily big enough to control all the zombies on the battlefield.

however, most Gatling guns are designed to fire at an ideal rate, so messing with one might totally sap your ammunition

In the Kino Der Toten level, the Turret Gun never runs out of ammo, actually. And there are far more than 111 zombies to kill if you're decently good at the game, so even if it does have a limit, it won't reach anywhere close to that here.

what was that about Taskmaster and double time?

It's how he was able to do things like catch bullets and blitz bullet-timers during the UDON series, which is where your scans come from. He watched reference videos at double speed, and was able to perform the moves at twice his normal speed. It even says as much in the scans you posted. But it tears his body apart since it's not supposed to have such a large amount of stress on it.

complexes of robots? all at once? what kind of range feats does Jeffries have that compete with Taskmaster's?

Lots and lots of robots. And he's also absorbed Alpha Flight's whole base into his armor more than once.

And I posted some other solid range feats above, such as manipulating the whole danger room or all the support beams in a warehouse.

as for his defenses, Tasky's CA shield should protect him well enough to get shots out (need I show more scans of him firing while evading?)

But Jeffries can destroy the metal shield with ease. And again, Tasky's guns are basically useless against an opponent surrounded by thick metal walls.

If he consults Blindfold before teleporting out, that's going to give my team plenty of time (they're all pretty fast, and these rooms seem pretty small) additionally, her speech if peppered with enough purple prose for it to be fair to assume it would take a little while even factoring in her ability to predict the questions of others, so, if you take this precaution, you lose your temporal edge

Jeffries' first instinct is going to be to build defenses, since that's his native powerset. He's very capable of having conversations while building, so Blindfold should be able to fill him in while he's making walls and guns and such.

okay, but my guys really just have to see Forge to kill him, and considering all the precious moments Jeffries takes to consult Blindfold, we should be able to do that before Jeffries manages to do his teleportation stuff (using all of EE's extra eyes and ears, finding the guys shouldn't be very difficult)

Jeffries can make a suit for Forge in an instant, or he can bring Forge into his own suit with him. Or they could build a magnetic field strong enough to repel bullets away from my location. Or Forge could just take cover inside the walls that have been built for that specific purpose. And again, Jeffries and Forge can be building while talking to Blindfold. They both have shown plenty of times that they can talk and build at the same time. It's not that difficult.

as I mentioned earlier, we are coming in with the Grimorumn Arcanorumwe could certainly at least mess with your technology with a quick Fulminus venite! or a a quick coupleother spells we could name

Why does your team get the spellbook? According to the wiki, Xanatos has never had access to it, so it's hardly standard gear for him. And with no experience in magic, how well would he be able to use it, anyway? And Jeffries controls his technology with his mind, not with electricity, so a lightning bolt wouldn't even mess it up very much.

#37 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire: oh, hello there man

sorry, but I've been really busy lately (had classes for the last week) anyways, I think I'm gonna be away from my computer and library of scans for a while

sorry about that, but it might be a while(Sunday evening or Monday) before I can really give you a proper responce

#38 Posted by Esquire (3742 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1: No worries, I've been busy too and have made you wait a while for a response. Take as much time as you need!

#39 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire: yeeah, might be another day, sorry

#40 Edited by Jokergeist (4898 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1

@esquire said:

@jokergeist When you get back from Comic Con, can you clarify how this universe works, and how practicing with items before the match works? Also, do we have any knowledge of the map before the match starts?

How the universes work: This is an expanded universe, meaning all fictional universes are collided into one. The universe of Dr. Who exists with the comicverse and so on. Taskmaster cannot watch Dr. Who episodes; they don't exist for him.

How Goodie Bag practice works: A month before the match, you team is given a bag. Inside the bag are the items. They get basic knowledge of what the items do, and practice with 'em for a month. Plain and simple.

Knowledge of the map: There are actually maps for them to look at

#41 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire said:

@betatesthighlander1

hmmm, could I get examples of that specific stuff?

I've posted most of it already, but here's another example of Alien technology, where Jeffries absorbs an entire Alien complex into his armor, and then one where he absorbs alien materials into his Boxship:

okay then

impressive enough

I guess Gallifreyan technology is pretty unique to the universe, and i'm not sure if it's even made out of metals and plastics as we understand them

We know that Gallifrey has trees and rocks and volcanic activity and such, so it's not all that different from Earth. The Master was able to create his Laser Screwdriver after he'd gone to Earth, and the Halls of Sacrifice comic confirms that the Sonic Screwdriver has electrical components. This is backed up by that fact that it has needed to be recharged a few times over the course of the show. The Doctor has also created new versions of the screwdriver in the years since Gallifrey was destroyed in the Time War, so apparently Gallifreyan materials aren't necessary. I don't think it's at all far-fetched for Madison to manipulate the screwdriver.

okay, presuming that's true, I guess that's plenty of evidence

@esquire said:

does Cable have very impressive telepathy feats? I'm nit trying to load a question here, I really have a fairly vague idea of how good Cable is at telepathy

His raw power isn't all that impressive, (at least at that point), but he is a very skilled telepath. He's fought evenly with X-Man, for example.ery much.

is X-Man a very impressive telepath?

@esquire said:

.

your plan depends on basic knowledge on the make-up of the building and knowing where my guys are.

I have no need to know where your team is to establish a defensive perimeter, although Blindfold's telepathy, clairvoyance, and precog should let me know where you are regardless.

But you are correct, I have been assuming that our team has knowledge of the map. Upon rereading the OP, it seems that this is not the case. I'll ask Jokergeist if we get knowledge, but if we don't my strategy doesn't change much.

Strategy with no Knowledge:

Instead of teleporting to the room with the Gatling Gun, Jeffries will mind-link with Forge to build defenses in the Alley where we start. I'll build sonic cannons, railguns, and the Power Nullifier as in my original plans, and Jeffries will build walls for cover and reinforce the walls and doors around my location.

Since I don't know the layout of the map, Jeffries won't be able to teleport through the map to fuse the doors. But since I won't be teleporting to the Theater, my team is much further from yours and you still have no way of detecting me. This means that I should have plenty of time to make my defenses before your team stumbles onto mine.

So whether we have knowledge of the map or not, my plan stays basically the same.

yeah, moving all of those machines will make tracking you guys down no problem at all

@esquire said:

hmm, EE is no stranger to strange and chaotic places and concepts

Unless he's a more skilled telepath than Emma Frost, he's not going to have any luck reading her mind.

and how does she use her seeing power to block other telepathic attacks?(not trying to load a question here, just trying to understand)

She's not only a prescient, she's a telepath. She often reads other people's thoughts and has located people telepathically. Here's the scan of Blindfold protecting Scott from Cassandra Nova's mental powers. The Cassandra that Scott shoots isn't her real body, it's a psionic projection, so it's still Nova trying to get into Scott's mind. Worth noting is that in this same story arc, Nova stays invisible to Xavier's telepathy, mindrapes Wolverine and Cyclops, and takes control of Emma Frost, so she hasn't been nerfed for the purpose of the story or anything.

according to your previous explanation, EE would only have to be a different sort of telepath

also, the wiki states:

so I still see a psychic attack as viable

@esquire said:

Does Jeffries require line-of-sight?(all of the examples I've seen so far involve that)

Most of the time he uses his powers close up, but he isn't limited to line-of-sight. Here he pulls support beams from all around a crowded warehouse, controls every part of the Alpha Flight Danger Room even though he's outside of it, and detects the planet-killing bullet from Breakworld even though it's still way out it space.

There are other examples, like him absorbing entire buildings and such.

all of those seemed to require him to know the exact location of what he manipulated (I'm not entirely sure what's going on in those last three)

also, doesn't Jeffries have some restriction from manipulating outside machinery while he's in a robot suit?

@esquire said:

if so, I think Taskmaster has good enough reflexes to counter that before his weapons are destroyed

I've already posted a scan of Jeffries using his powers to affect a bullet being fired, (by Cable, who is a bullet-dodger himself). And how is Taskmaster planning to counter the fact that there are thick metal walls protecting my team? Quick-draw reflexes won't help him against defenses he can't shoot through.

and I showed scans of Taskmaster blitzing a guy who literally just caught a bullet

also, the Sonic Screwdriver should be enough to negate most of those force fields

so I'm seeing Taskmaster managing to get a few kills in

@esquire said:

1. David Xanatos operates a multi-billion-dollar corporation that deals with time traveling jewels, nanobot swarms the size of Australia, sentient machines, creating cyborgs, genetically modifying humans to give them supwerpowers, and other such impossibilities; I think he'd be able to get a basic instruction guide

Xanatos is smart, certainly, but the Doctor is one of the smartest characters in all of fiction, and he has 9 centuries of experience with this thing. Xanatos' corporation is Earth-bound, right? And there aren't any sonic screwdrivers on Earth. Nobody on Earth knows how they work. How is his corporation going to get access to information about it?

2. Taskmaster can imitate anything he sees someone else doing, so all he has to do is track down some security footage that involves the doctor (or watch some Doctor Who if this is outside the DW Universe) and he'll know how to use the Sonic Screwdriver with decent proficiency

Since characters and equipment from different universes are interacting, I assume this is some sort of combined universe. If that's the case, then the Doctor's existence is a closely guarded secret known by only a few random humans and the highest levels of the British government. Taskmaster won't know where to look for footage, and basically none of it exists, anyway. And I also question how legal that is for practicing with items, since it's basically training from another person.

@jokergeist When you get back from Comic Con, can you clarify how this universe works, and how practicing with items before the match works? Also, do we have any knowledge of the map before the match starts?

1. The Doctor seems intelligent enough ( he doesn't seem to be much of an engineer by Gallifreyan standards, judging by how much his technology betrays him)

they could get information through, say, experimentation, magic, nanoprobes, that kind of stuff

2. dude, the very first episode of the new series has someone googling The Doctor and getting a decent bit of information from some guy in a British garage

as for tracking down footage, Taskmaster has suck into SHIELD without being noticed

suffice to say, if this was a combined universe, Taskmaster would probably already have footage of The Doctor, from his vast array of Terrestrial sources (maybe some extraterrestrial as well)

and are you suggesting it be made illegal for one of my characters to use his powers?

@esquire said:

okay, you have me convinced he could take over Xanatos's suit. however, he seems to require concentration and line-of-site to do that sort of thing, both of which he is unlikely to get when Evil Ernie and Taskmaster are both trying to kill him.

All of those scans are of him in the middle of combat, and it doesn't seem to hinder him. He can destroy a Sentinel and create a suit while free-falling from an airplane. One mistake and he plunges to his death, but he doesn't have any trouble concentrating on the Sentinel. Jeffries manipulated things, including robots and suits, all the time in combat. He should have things even easier here, since he's protected by thick metal walls and the defensive guns he's mounted on and around them. He also has Forge protecting him with the Power Nullifier. He can even use his powers to totally bullet-proof the Penetraitor suit to protect himself from Taskmaster if it's that much of an issue, which it shouldn't be. He has plenty of feats during stressful combat situations like the one he's in here.

dude, I didn't think Jeffries could manipulate outside technology while wearing such a suit

also, free-falling is very different from actively being blitzed

it took him several seconds for any of those, more than enough time to fire a particle beam

@esquire said:

building and operating heavy machinery tends to be...loud

I can only think of one instance where sounds have been applied to Jeffries' transmutation, and that was when he was squishing up a car into a robot. Most of the time he creates it in midair and all the pieces kind of mesh together. He does it around people most of the time, and nobody ever comments on it being loud. He also transmutes quite often while he or others are carrying on a conversation, and it's not loud enough to drown out their words. I don't think his manner of building is particularly noisy.

people in comic books carry on conversations while an artillery barrage is hitting them, doesn't make it quiet

I'm sorry about bringing foreign logic in, but manipulating metal is loud

I also have a character with very sensitive ears; as well as a guy who has and eyes & ears all around the complex, unless you can tell me that his building is entirely silent, and back that up, my guys are going to hear your guys

@esquire said:

however, most Gatling guns are designed to fire at an ideal rate, so messing with one might totally sap your ammunition

In the Kino Der Toten level, the Turret Gun never runs out of ammo, actually. And there are far more than 111 zombies to kill if you're decently good at the game, so even if it does have a limit, it won't reach anywhere close to that here.

that stage also had indestructible environments( not the case here) I don't think we're using that kind of logic here

@esquire said:

ere.

what was that about Taskmaster and double time?

It's how he was able to do things like catch bullets and blitz bullet-timers during the UDON series, which is where your scans come from. He watched reference videos at double speed, and was able to perform the moves at twice his normal speed. It even says as much in the scans you posted. But it tears his body apart since it's not supposed to have such a large amount of stress on it.

yeah, I don't see why he needs more than bursts that last a few seconds

@esquire said:

complexes of robots? all at once? what kind of range feats does Jeffries have that compete with Taskmaster's?

Lots and lots of robots. And he's also absorbed Alpha Flight's whole base into his armor more than once.

And I posted some other solid range feats above, such as manipulating the whole danger room or all the support beams in a warehouse.

the first one takes an unspecified amount of time

the second one takes quite a while

this kind of thing is going to leave him wide open

@esquire said:

as for his defenses, Tasky's CA shield should protect him well enough to get shots out (need I show more scans of him firing while evading?)

But Jeffries can destroy the metal shield with ease. And again, Tasky's guns are basically useless against an opponent surrounded by thick metal walls.

yes, but Taskmaster will be able to shoot before Jeffrres could do either of those

@esquire said:

If he consults Blindfold before teleporting out, that's going to give my team plenty of time (they're all pretty fast, and these rooms seem pretty small) additionally, her speech if peppered with enough purple prose for it to be fair to assume it would take a little while even factoring in her ability to predict the questions of others, so, if you take this precaution, you lose your temporal edge

Jeffries' first instinct is going to be to build defenses, since that's his native powerset. He's very capable of having conversations while building, so Blindfold should be able to fill him in while he's making walls and guns and such.

and in that time, we will be able to move to the hall across from him and kill him discretely

afterwards he will be one of Evil Ernie's thralls

so...yeah, not seeing that as a very big problem

@esquire said:

okay, but my guys really just have to see Forge to kill him, and considering all the precious moments Jeffries takes to consult Blindfold, we should be able to do that before Jeffries manages to do his teleportation stuff (using all of EE's extra eyes and ears, finding the guys shouldn't be very difficult)

Jeffries can make a suit for Forge in an instant, or he can bring Forge into his own suit with him. Or they could build a magnetic field strong enough to repel bullets away from my location. Or Forge could just take cover inside the walls that have been built for that specific purpose. And again, Jeffries and Forge can be building while talking to Blindfold. They both have shown plenty of times that they can talk and build at the same time. It's not that difficult.

make a suit out of what?

make a magnetic field out of what?

the magnetic field will repel particle beams?

also, a magnetic field isn't going to stop EE from busting in there and tearing them apart with his bare hands (he's very good at that, would you like to see some highlights?)

@esquire said:

as I mentioned earlier, we are coming in with the Grimorumn Arcanorumwe could certainly at least mess with your technology with a quick Fulminus venite! or a a quick coupleother spells we could name

Why does your team get the spellbook? According to the wiki, Xanatos has never had access to it, so it's hardly standard gear for him. And with no experience in magic, how well would he be able to use it, anyway? And Jeffries controls his technology with his mind, not with electricity, so a lightning bolt wouldn't even mess it up very much.

other than me mentioning that?

also, I think you misread the wiki

"Brooklyn afterwards tricked Demona into returning the Grimorum to him and Finella, after which the Phoenix took them and Mary to the United States in the 1970s. They later on gave it to Xanatos, who kept it, housing it in Castle Wyvern after it was moved to the top of the Eyrie Building."

also, again, Taskmaster needs only track down some footage of someone else using the Spellbook

also, I think his mind technology also requires some form of power (I see nothing to suggest otherwise)

Evil Ernie has experience with magic as well

additionally, there are other spells we could use

http://gargwiki.net/Blowback_Spell

http://gargwiki.net/Rain_of_Death_Spell

http://gargwiki.net/Sleep_Spell

#42 Edited by Esquire (3742 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1

is X-Man a very impressive telepath?

Widely considered the most powerful Earth-bound telepath in Marvel history, and he's been stated to have psionic power rivaling Dark Phoenix. He's one of the most impressive telepaths in comics.

yeah, moving all of those machines will make tracking you guys down no problem at all

I disagree with your opinion on the amount of noise that Jeffries would make, for reasons I've already stated. I see no reason to continue this line of debate, we've both presented enough for the voters to decide.

according to your previous explanation, EE would only have to be a different sort of telepath

I don't have any idea what you're trying to say here.

also, the wiki states:

so I still see a psychic attack as viable

What kind of psychic attack are you trying to attempt, here? All you've said is that Ernie will use mind-reading to find my team. To quote from Post #6:

Evil Ernie is also a telepath he hears (whether he wants to or not) the surface thoughts of all around him

You have never mentioned any ability to attack psionically, only to read minds. And I have brought up the fact that Emma Frost was unable to read Blindfold's mind, in order to counter your point. Blindfold was also able to protect Cyclops from Cassandra Nova, a far more powerful telepath than Ernie. So I don't think a psionic attack has any sort of legitimate chance of succeeding.

all of those seemed to require him to know the exact location of what he manipulated (I'm not entirely sure what's going on in those last three)

I'm skeptical that he could see the exact location of every item in the Danger Room. And in the last three scans, Madison is using his powers to detect a giant bullet that is thousands of miles away in outer space. He didn't know where it was previously.

Also, in X-Club, Jeffries spends lots of time talking to technology. So he could just ask Xanatos' suit where it is, and then he would know. I don't think it's necessary, but I like to be thorough in refuting your points.

also, doesn't Jeffries have some restriction from manipulating outside machinery while he's in a robot suit?

When he's inside of his Box armor, his ability to manipulate things outside of the armor is limited. It still exists and is still powerful, but it's less effective than when he is not in his Box armor. And this is only true of his Box armor since he phases inside of it, which he won't be doing with the Penetraitor. So this is irrelevant, regardless.

@esquire said:

if so, I think Taskmaster has good enough reflexes to counter that before his weapons are destroyed

I've already posted a scan of Jeffries using his powers to affect a bullet being fired, (by Cable, who is a bullet-dodger himself). And how is Taskmaster planning to counter the fact that there are thick metal walls protecting my team? Quick-draw reflexes won't help him against defenses he can't shoot through.

and I showed scans of Taskmaster blitzing a guy who literally just caught a bullet

Which is very cool and all, but not really relevant. You've repeatedly tried to assert that you can simply shoot Jeffries and there is nothing he can do about it. In doing so, you consistently disregard the facts that

  1. Jeffries can react to bullets being fired from a gun. Taskmaster doesn't have the power to increase the speed of a bullet, so Jeffries can react to it and deflect it.
  2. Jeffries is wearing an armored suit that will let him shrug off Taskmaster's gunfire.
  3. Jeffries is surrounded, Totally Surrounded, by thick metal walls through which Taskmaster cannot, Literally Cannot, shoot bullets.

also, the Sonic Screwdriver should be enough to negate most of those force fields

You admitted earlier in your post that you have no argument for Jeffries not taking over the Screwdriver. So this is irrelevant. But even if you disregard the fact that this strategy is not actually available to your team, and for some reason you can use the Sonic Screwdriver to take down Forge's forcefield, (I'm assuming that's what you're referring to, although it wasn't in the part you quoted, so...), my team is still surrounded by metal walls that you cannot shoot bullets through. I literally cannot emphasize that enough. Taskmaster Cannot Shoot Through Thick Metal Walls. Please stop trying to claim that he can.

so I'm seeing Taskmaster managing to get a few kills in

...

I guess we'll just have to let the voters decide.

1. The Doctor seems intelligent enough ( he doesn't seem to be much of an engineer by Gallifreyan standards, judging by how much his technology betrays him)

His intelligence, no matter what the incarnation, is virtually limited. And he's claimed that he can build a new TARDIS from scratch, so he can't be all that poor of an engineer.

they could get information through, say, experimentation, magic, nanoprobes, that kind of stuff

Seeing as you don't get prep time to do anything except practice with your items, none of these are legitimate strategies.

2. dude, the very first episode of the new series has someone googling The Doctor and getting a decent bit of information from some guy in a British garage

Same as above, you don't get to google anything. You just get to practice with your item.

as for tracking down footage, Taskmaster has suck into SHIELD without being noticed

And since you, again, only get to practice with your items for the duration of prep time, Taskmaster won't be sneaking into anywhere.

suffice to say, if this was a combined universe, Taskmaster would probably already have footage of The Doctor, from his vast array of Terrestrial sources (maybe some extraterrestrial as well)

Not unless you can give me a scan or issue number or story arc or instance where Taskmaster shows such material or even references the fact that he possesses it. Just because all the universes have been merged doesn't mean people get things they've never shown before.

and are you suggestin it be made illegal for one of my characters to use his powers?

Not even in the slightest have I ever suggested or implied anything of the sort. I'm saying that Taskmaster isn't allowed to look for videos or sneak into places, he is only allowed to practice with his items. That is what Jokergeist has always said. Taskmaster's move copying is all well and good and legal, he just doesn't have any footage to copy, nor do the rules give him license to obtain any.

dude, I didn't think Jeffries could manipulate outside technology while wearing such a suit

Been over this. The suit inhibits him for a reason that doesn't apply to the Penetraitor, and it doesn't eliminate his powers, anyway. So this doesn't matter in the slightest.

also, free-falling is very different from actively being blitzed

But it's still a stressful situation where he will die if he makes a mistake and he has to build things in a small window of time. And he does this without any problems. There is no reason to believe that the stress of combat will have any effect on Jeffries' ability to create, and that's not even very relevant since he'll have everything built before your team has a chance to arrive and attempt a 'blitz.'

And he could just teleport out of the way of a 'blitz,' anyway. My team isn't nearly as vulnerable as you would like to imply.

it took him several seconds for any of those, more than enough time to fire a particle beam

I disagree categorically with your estimate of Jeffries' transmutation speed and reaction time, and I've posted plenty of scans to prove my point. You've also agreed that Jeffries can take over Xanatos' suit, so I don't know where you're planning to get particle beams.

people in comic books carry on conversations while an artillery barrage is hitting them, doesn't make it quiet

Those artillery barrages are also denoted by sound effects, which Jeffries' transmutations are not.

I'm sorry about bringing foreign logic in, but manipulating metal is loud

There is no reason to believe that the way we manipulate metal in the real world applies to the way Jeffries can manipulate it with technokinesis. I disagree with your estimate of the noise levels.

I also have a character with very sensitive ears; as well as a guy who has and eyes & ears all around the complex, unless you can tell me that his building is entirely silent, and back that up, my guys are going to hear your guys

I've given you my reasons for believing that his transmutation is quiet. Whether you accept them or not isn't really something that concerns me. No matter how fast your team detects mine, I will have several seconds in which to build things. This is enough time to create my defenses, as I've showed over and over. You can't 'blitz' my team before they get walls and defensive guns built. You will get smacked down by railguns, sonic attacks, and power nullifiers before you have a chance to reach my defensive walls. If you detect me at the start of the match, this is still true. It's just even more of a slaughter if you don't detect me until a few seconds later.

that stage also had indestructible environments( not the case here) I don't think we're using that kind of logic here

Regardless, I don't see any reason to believe that the gun would run out before it could take down all of your zombies, and it should still have plenty of ammunition to fire at the rest of your team.

yeah, I don't see why he needs more than bursts that last a few seconds

Because he can't bypass metal walls in that burst. So he can't get close enough to fight hand-to-hand. So his momentarily enhanced combat speed is largely irrelevant.

the first one takes an unspecified amount of time

Since you asked for range feats, I really don't see why that matters. And if it helps, he was able to do this in a couple of seconds at most, since he only took control of the robots once Cable started attacking his boss.

the second one takes quite a while, this kind of thing is going to leave him wide open

But he's not going to be absorbing the entire map into his armor. He doesn't even have that armor in this battle. He won't be doing anything "this kind of thing," so it won't be leaving him anything. You asked for range feats, I gave them to you. I've already given you the speed feats you've asked for, let's not start backtracking.

yes, but Taskmaster will be able to shoot before Jeffrres could do either of those

There is literally no way for Taskmaster to shoot Madison before he creates walls around my team. He is only peak human in travel speed. Jeffries starts the battle by making walls around my team. Taskmaster cannot shoot through these walls. Bullets aren't going to be killing me, because they can't get to me. I don't know why we're still discussing this.

and in that time, we will be able to move to the hall across from him and kill him discretely

I can literally copy/paste the quote you replied to and it counters your point.

"Jeffries' first instinct is going to be to build defenses, since that's his native powerset. He's very capable of having conversations while building, so Blindfold should be able to fill him in while he's making walls and guns and such."

Jeffries is going to start by building defenses. Since we don't start the match with knowledge of the map and have to find it on the walls, he won't try teleporting anywhere and will start the match by building walls around my team. I have shown over and over how fast he can build, there is no argument to be made that you can cross the entire map and kill Jeffries before the first instant of the match when he builds walls to block bullets. Your team is not that fast. You won't be killing me before I make defenses. And then you won't be able to kill me 'discretely' because of said defenses.

make a suit out of what?

make a magnetic field out of what?

Brick, metal, glass, basically whatever is lying around? Mostly the walls of the building, I would assume.

the magnetic field will repel particle beams?

Depends on the sort of particles, I suppose. But if you're talking about Xanatos' suit, you've already admitted that Jeffries can just take it over.

also, a magnetic field isn't going to stop EE from busting in there and tearing them apart with his bare hands (he's very good at that, would you like to see some highlights?)

But the railguns, sonic cannons, thick metal walls, and power nullifiers will do a very good job of stopping him from doing it. You can't disregard my main strategy because of a footnote contingency plan. Ernie's powers will be taken away, he will be shot, Jeffries will use the Xanatos suit to remove Smiley from him, and Ernie and Smiley will both be shot a lot more. Jeffries will then encase both Smiley and Ernie in separate graves of metal and stone dozens of feet thick, so that even if you want to try using Lady Death as a plot device, they won't be able to harm my team.

"Brooklyn afterwards tricked Demona into returning the Grimorum to him and Finella, after which the Phoenix took them and Mary to the United States in the 1970s. They later on gave it to Xanatos, who kept it, housing it in Castle Wyvern after it was moved to the top of the Eyrie Building."

Different article than the ones I was able to track down, sorry for the misunderstanding. I accept that you get the spellbook.

also, again, Taskmaster needs only track down some footage of someone else using the Spellbook

Also, again, Taskmaster isn't allowed to go track down anything. You get prep for one thing and one thing only: to practice with your Goody Bag items. Not to do research, not to track down footage, but to practice with your Goody Bag items.

also, I think his mind technology also requires some form of power (I see nothing to suggest otherwise)

How many scans do I have to post of him creating armor from non-electrical things like cave walls before you accept that he powers them with his mind? There is literally no reason to believe that his tech needs any form of outside power, and I have posted probably a dozen scans where he takes things that had no form of outside power and makes them into various pieces of functioning technology. Your assertion is incontrovertibly baseless.

I'm beginning to think that there is nothing more of substance to be brought to the table, so I'm ready for voting, assuming you have no drastically different strategies to bring to the table.

#43 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire: I see that you made a comment, don't have access to a lot of stuff right now, might be several hours before I get back to you

#44 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire said:

@betatesthighlander1

is X-Man a very impressive telepath?

Widely considered the most powerful Earth-bound telepath in Marvel history, and he's been stated to have psionic power rivaling Dark Phoenix. He's one of the most impressive telepaths in comics.

still, that is a bit ABC for a debate

@esquire said:

@betatesthighlander1

uys down no problem at all

I disagree with your opinion on the amount of noise that Jeffries would make, for reasons I've already stated. I see no reason to continue this line of debate, we've both presented enough for the voters to decide.

okay then

Still going with Evil Ernie's eyes and ears across the arena and Taskmaster's ability to, at the evry least, amalyze his hearing better than teh average mook

also, I know this is contested, but EE's telepathy would certainly help (IMO)

@esquire said:

according to your previous explanation, EE would only have to be a different sort of telepath

I don't have any idea what you're trying to say here.

also, the wiki states:

so I still see a psychic attack as viable

What kind of psychic attack are you trying to attempt, here? All you've said is that Ernie will use mind-reading to find my team. To quote from Post #6:

Evil Ernie is also a telepath he hears (whether he wants to or not) the surface thoughts of all around him

You have never mentioned any ability to attack psionically, only to read minds. And I have brought up the fact that Emma Frost was unable to read Blindfold's mind, in order to counter your point. Blindfold was also able to protect Cyclops from Cassandra Nova, a far more powerful telepath than Ernie. So I don't think a psionic attack has any sort of legitimate chance of succeeding.

well, way back in post #25 I posted this

which was a psychic attack

anyways, the wiki states that the problem was with Emma's style of mind-reading, not her amount of power

so I don't think EE would have to be a more powerful telepath at all to read her mind

@esquire said:

all of those seemed to require him to know the exact location of what he manipulated (I'm not entirely sure what's going on in those last three)

I'm skeptical that he could see the exact location of every item in the Danger Room. And in the last three scans, Madison is using his powers to detect a giant bullet that is thousands of miles away in outer space. He didn't know where it was previously.

Also, in X-Club, Jeffries spends lots of time talking to technology. So he could just ask Xanatos' suit where it is, and then he would know. I don't think it's necessary, but I like to be thorough in refuting your points.

and Madison could control that Space Bullet?

because observing Haley's comet does not mean that someone has improved eyesight

hmm, if you say so

@esquire said:

also, doesn't Jeffries have some restriction from manipulating outside machinery while he's in a robot suit?

When he's inside of his Box armor, his ability to manipulate things outside of the armor is limited. It still exists and is still powerful, but it's less effective than when he is not in his Box armor. And this is only true of his Box armor since he phases inside of it, which he won't be doing with the Penetraitor. So this is irrelevant, regardless.

okay, explain how that would be any different if he didn't phase?

because what you've given me so far doesn't give me much

@esquire said:

@esquire said:

if so, I think Taskmaster has good enough reflexes to counter that before his weapons are destroyed

I've already posted a scan of Jeffries using his powers to affect a bullet being fired, (by Cable, who is a bullet-dodger himself). And how is Taskmaster planning to counter the fact that there are thick metal walls protecting my team? Quick-draw reflexes won't help him against defenses he can't shoot through.

and I showed scans of Taskmaster blitzing a guy who literally just caught a bullet

Which is very cool and all, but not really relevant. You've repeatedly tried to assert that you can simply shoot Jeffries and there is nothing he can do about it. In doing so, you consistently disregard the facts that

  1. Jeffries can react to bullets being fired from a gun. Taskmaster doesn't have the power to increase the speed of a bullet, so Jeffries can react to it and deflect it.
  2. Jeffries is wearing an armored suit that will let him shrug off Taskmaster's gunfire.
  3. Jeffries is surrounded, Totally Surrounded, by thick metal walls through which Taskmaster cannot, Literally Cannot, shoot bullets.

1. how afst were those bullets moving?

2. durability feats?

3. how exactly does that happen?

@esquire said:

also, the Sonic Screwdriver should be enough to negate most of those force fields

You admitted earlier in your post that you have no argument for Jeffries not taking over the Screwdriver. So this is irrelevant. But even if you disregard the fact that this strategy is not actually available to your team, and for some reason you can use the Sonic Screwdriver to take down Forge's forcefield, (I'm assuming that's what you're referring to, although it wasn't in the part you quoted, so...), my team is still surrounded by metal walls that you cannot shoot bullets through. I literally cannot emphasize that enough. Taskmaster Cannot Shoot Through Thick Metal Walls. Please stop trying to claim that he can.

this is one of my problems with debating with you, I give one inch towards you and you act like I quit the debate

1. he would need some amount of time to raise the walls

2. he would need some amount of time to recognize and restrain the Sonic Screwdriver

(Taskmaster has shown better redaction time)

3. 3. Ernie could Demolish your ambiguous metal walls

4. I'm not so sure that you could do much through the metal walls either, so Xanatos could probably just shoot through them with his particle beam

so yeah, there's that

@esquire said:

so I'm seeing Taskmaster managing to get a few kills in

...

I guess we'll just have to let the voters decide.

I mean, most of your plans have required getting close to my guys, so I'm seeing my guys killing some of yours

@esquire said:

1. The Doctor seems intelligent enough ( he doesn't seem to be much of an engineer by Gallifreyan standards, judging by how much his technology betrays him)

His intelligence, no matter what the incarnation, is virtually limited. And he's claimed that he can build a new TARDIS from scratch, so he can't be all that poor of an engineer

"virtually limited" good to know

the rest, conjecture

@esquire said:

2. dude, the very first episode of the new series has someone googling The Doctor and getting a decent bit of information from some guy in a British garage

Same as above, you don't get to google anything. You just get to practice with your item.

as for tracking down footage, Taskmaster has suck into SHIELD without being noticed

And since you, again, only get to practice with your items for the duration of prep time, Taskmaster won't be sneaking into anywhere.

Where does it say their not allowed to use an internet connection?

I mean, these rules your using to counter me don't seem to actually come from anywhere

@jokergeist said they practice with em for a month, "only" was not a word used in his restrictions, I don't feel like these counters have much weight behind them

@esquire said:

suffice to say, if this was a combined universe, Taskmaster would probably already have footage of The Doctor, from his vast array of Terrestrial sources (maybe some extraterrestrial as well)

Not unless you can give me a scan or issue number or story arc or instance where Taskmaster shows such material or even references the fact that he possesses it. Just because all the universes have been merged doesn't mean people get things they've never shown before.

My phone's not working, so I can't give you a picture

his vast array of sources are mentioned in Avengers 195

so, if this does include DW Earth, he would have known this by now

@esquire said:

and are you suggestin it be made illegal for one of my characters to use his powers?

Not even in the slightest have I ever suggested or implied anything of the sort. I'm saying that Taskmaster isn't allowed to look for videos or sneak into places, he is only allowed to practice with his items. That is what Jokergeist has always said. Taskmaster's move copying is all well and good and legal, he just doesn't have any footage to copy, nor do the rules give him license to obtain any.

when did @jokergeist say that he couldn't look for videos?

in a month of prep, he would get some

@esquire said:

also, free-falling is very different from actively being blitzed

But it's still a stressful situation where he will die if he makes a mistake and he has to build things in a small window of time. And he does this without any problems. There is no reason to believe that the stress of combat will have any effect on Jeffries' ability to create, and that's not even very relevant since he'll have everything built before your team has a chance to arrive and attempt a 'blitz.'

And he could just teleport out of the way of a 'blitz,' anyway. My team isn't nearly as vulnerable as you would like to imply.

when your free-falling, everything is pretty still from where you are

when your getting blitzed, everything is constantly moving

@esquire said:

it took him several seconds for any of those, more than enough time to fire a particle beam

I disagree categorically with your estimate of Jeffries' transmutation speed and reaction time, and I've posted plenty of scans to prove my point. You've also agreed that Jeffries can take over Xanatos' suit, so I don't know where you're planning to get particle beams.

that's good to know, not so sure about that second part

and my point is that he should have an opportunity to shoot Jeffries before Jeffries manages to hack hios armor, as far as I can tell

@esquire said:

people in comic books carry on conversations while an artillery barrage is hitting them, doesn't make it quiet

Those artillery barrages are also denoted by sound effects, which Jeffries' transmutations are not.

because including sound effects is a choice of the author?

I mean, do I really need to point out all of the loud things taht happen in comics without any sound effects?

so I guess Thor is also relatively silent?

@esquire said:

I'm sorry about bringing foreign logic in, but manipulating metal is loud

There is no reason to believe that the way we manipulate metal in the real world applies to the way Jeffries can manipulate it with technokinesis. I disagree with your estimate of the noise levels.

Because that's the best we can assume?

there is little evidence to assume otherwise?

@esquire said:

I also have a character with very sensitive ears; as well as a guy who has and eyes & ears all around the complex, unless you can tell me that his building is entirely silent, and back that up, my guys are going to hear your guys

I've given you my reasons for believing that his transmutation is quiet. Whether you accept them or not isn't really something that concerns me. No matter how fast your team detects mine, I will have several seconds in which to build things. This is enough time to create my defenses, as I've showed over and over. You can't 'blitz' my team before they get walls and defensive guns built. You will get smacked down by railguns, sonic attacks, and power nullifiers before you have a chance to reach my defensive walls. If you detect me at the start of the match, this is still true. It's just even more of a slaughter if you don't detect me until a few seconds later.

Okay, regardless of my characters being bullet dodgers and people of remarkable endurance and regardless of the fact that you made up about half of those defenses, your still hardest on your team being invincible

and somehow your team has defenses before they actually built any defenses, because that makes sense

practically, your team has essentially nothing to start off with, while my team has everything, your argument against that is based on defenses that you made up that exist in an amorphous state that is somehow always a direct counter to mine, and apparently now happen before you consult your psychic (no, you can't decipher what she's saying while making advanced defenses, that's ridiculous), and on having railguns...how do you just instantly have rail guns out of nowhere?

oh, and the power nullifiers, because those are apparently things your team has five seconds into the battle, but I'm sure it'll eb easy enought o build those out of no raw materials while your making defenses out of the same basic elements

@esquire said:

that stage also had indestructible environments( not the case here) I don't think we're using that kind of logic here

Regardless, I don't see any reason to believe that the gun would run out before it could take down all of your zombies, and it should still have plenty of ammunition to fire at the rest of your team.

because mini guns eat ammunition like candy?

and now your argument depends on not having evidence against something, so I have to prove a negative to you?

@esquire said:

yeah, I don't see why he needs more than bursts that last a few seconds

Because he can't bypass metal walls in that burst. So he can't get close enough to fight hand-to-hand. So his momentarily enhanced combat speed is largely irrelevant.

and you can just make metal walls in nil-time?

because that's a very interesting superpower

@esquire said:

the first one takes an unspecified amount of time

Since you asked for range feats, I really don't see why that matters. And if it helps, he was able to do this in a couple of seconds at most, since he only took control of the robots once Cable started attacking his boss.

because he would logically require range and speed to just control Xanatos's suit while he's so far away?

@esquire said:

the second one takes quite a while, this kind of thing is going to leave him wide open

But he's not going to be absorbing the entire map into his armor. He doesn't even have that armor in this battle. He won't be doing anything "this kind of thing," so it won't be leaving him anything. You asked for range feats, I gave them to you. I've already given you the speed feats you've asked for, let's not start backtracking.

okay, so his range and speed go together even while the evidence suggest that they don't?

and disagreeing with that logic is backtracking?

@esquire said:

yes, but Taskmaster will be able to shoot before Jeffrres could do either of those

There is literally no way for Taskmaster to shoot Madison before he creates walls around my team. He is only peak human in travel speed. Jeffries starts the battle by making walls around my team. Taskmaster cannot shoot through these walls. Bullets aren't going to be killing me, because they can't get to me. I don't know why we're still discussing this.

why is there literally no way for him to react first? your argument doesn't seem to have a very strong base

because you really haven't shown any sped feats for wall building that supersede Taskmaster's previous feats

also we're discussing this because you ahev brought negligabl,e evidence against it.

I shoot you from behind, no way you could react to the bullets, so that would kill him quickly enough

@esquire said:

and in that time, we will be able to move to the hall across from him and kill him discretely

I can literally copy/paste the quote you replied to and it counters your point.

"Jeffries' first instinct is going to be to build defenses, since that's his native powerset. He's very capable of having conversations while building, so Blindfold should be able to fill him in while he's making walls and guns and such."

that counters literally nothing

you are making stuff up at this point

@esquire said:

"Jeffries' first instinct is going to be to build defenses, since that's his native powerset. He's very capable of having conversations while building, so Blindfold should be able to fill him in while he's making walls and guns and such."

Jeffries is going to start by building defenses. Since we don't start the match with knowledge of the map and have to find it on the walls, he won't try teleporting anywhere and will start the match by building walls around my team. I have shown over and over how fast he can build, there is no argument to be made that you can cross the entire map and kill Jeffries before the first instant of the match when he builds walls to block bullets. Your team is not that fast. You won't be killing me before I make defenses. And then you won't be able to kill me 'discretely' because of said defenses.

no, your building speed for Jeffries has not shown anything of the sort

also, you have no materials to make the wall

@esquire said:

make a suit out of what?

make a magnetic field out of what?

Brick, metal, glass, basically whatever is lying around? Mostly the walls of the building, I would assume.

...............................................so yoru character can just do whateevr?

I mean, if he can make a railgun out of scrap metal, why not just have him build a nuclear bomb with Blindfold's blindfold?

they could escape the blast radius with the teleporter he built from a brick that was lying around.

becasue apparently Maddison Jeffries has the power to just build anything out of whatevr is in the envirenment, and his weakness are not in play, because you said so

your just being impossible right now, your entire argument depends on someone building a railgun out of old rusty pieces of junk that were lying around

I mean, if Maddison Jeffries can just do whatever, why even bother entering him in a tourney, you seem sure enough that there is absolutely no way to counter anything you say about him, and that bringing up any flaw in your logic is backtracking, and entirely unnecessary

so, I mean, if this guy seriously has absolutely no limits to his powers, than maybe even debating this was pointless

@esquire said:

the magnetic field will repel particle beams?

Depends on the sort of particles, I suppose. But if you're talking about Xanatos' suit, you've already admitted that Jeffries can just take it over.

because he has unlimited speed and range in his technopathy, got it

yes, if your going to be like that, I guess I can't really argue against that

@esquire said:

also, a magnetic field isn't going to stop EE from busting in there and tearing them apart with his bare hands (he's very good at that, would you like to see some highlights?)

But the railguns, sonic cannons, thick metal walls, and power nullifiers will do a very good job of stopping him from doing it. You can't disregard my main strategy because of a footnote contingency plan. Ernie's powers will be taken away, he will be shot, Jeffries will use the Xanatos suit to remove Smiley from him, and Ernie and Smiley will both be shot a lot more. Jeffries will then encase both Smiley and Ernie in separate graves of metal and stone dozens of feet thick, so that even if you want to try using Lady Death as a plot device, they won't be able to harm my team.

judging By Ernie's previous experience with the military, he's going to laugh all of those off

but, since Jeffries has abosolutely no powers on what he can do, maybe your right

@esquire said:

also, I think you misread the wiki

"Brooklyn afterwards tricked Demona into returning the Grimorum to him and Finella, after which the Phoenix took them and Mary to the United States in the 1970s. They later on gave it to Xanatos, who kept it, housing it in Castle Wyvern after it was moved to the top of the Eyrie Building."

Different article than the ones I was able to track down, sorry. I accept that you get the spellbook.

also, again, Taskmaster needs only track down some footage of someone else using the Spellbook

Also, again, Taskmaster isn't allowed to go track down anything. You get prep for one thing and one thing only: to practice with your Goody Bag items. Not to do research, not to track down footage, but to practice with your Goody Bag items.\

again, not entirely sure where you got all that

@esquire said:

also, I think his mind technology also requires some form of power (I see nothing to suggest otherwise)

How many scans do I have to post of him creating armor from things like cave walls before you accept that he powers them with his mind? There is literally no reason to believe that his tech needs any form of outside power, and I have posted probably a dozen scans where he takes things that had no form of outside power and makes them into various pieces of functioning technology. Your assertion is baseless.

than your character's above limits

we ahve a clear limit on telekinesis on the level of Raven from teen Titans

and Madison Jeffries has superseded that on multiple occasions

@esquire said:

I'm beginning to think that there is nothing more of substance to be brought to the table, so I'm ready for voting, assuming you have no drastically different strategies to bring to the table.

I think I'm gonna request a little conversation about the rules before this goes to voting

because, as I see it now, we seem to disagree on what is actually allowed in this tourney

#45 Edited by Esquire (3742 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1

still, that is a bit ABC for a debate

The fact that Cable was able to telepathically stalemate a being as powerful as Dark Phoenix makes him more telepathically impressive than anything you've shown for Ernie. Cable generally is portrayed as an extremely skilled telepath. He wasn't able to read Jeffries' mind. That's my argument. I haven't seen anything to convince me that Ernie would be able to even sneeze at X-Man without getting mind-raped, but you know him better than I do. If he has some amazing telepathic feats that you've been holding in reserve, by all means post them.

Still going with Evil Ernie's eyes and ears across the arena and Taskmaster's ability to, at the evry least, amalyze his hearing better than teh average mook

Your team will find me pretty quickly regardless, but I have several seconds to construct defenses in the time it takes you to cross the arena. I don't think you will detect me the very instant the battle begins, but even if you do it will take you several seconds to cross the map. In that time, Jeffries and Forge can be building defenses. So this isn't a particularly major point, no matter which of us is correct.

also, I know this is contested, but EE's telepathy would certainly help (IMO)

You posted a single scan which you claim is him psychically messing around in the mind of someone who, as far as I know, is an unenhanced human with zero telepathy resistance. Blindfold has blocked Cassandra Nova, who mind-raped Charles Xavier when he was in Cerebra. Nova has better telepathic feats than anything I've seen for Ernie, and Blindfold blocked her from entering Cyclops' mind. So she should be able to block Ernie, who seems to be a far weaker telepath, from entering Forge's mind.

anyways, the wiki states that the problem was with Emma's style of mind-reading, not her amount of power so I don't think EE would have to be a more powerful telepath at all to read her mind

In the snippet you posted, it states unambiguously:

"her mind cannot be read telepathically."

Just saying.

I don't see anything about style, and I don't know what different 'style' of mindreading Ernie would be employing, anyway. As you have explained it, Ernie 'hears the surface thoughts' of those around him, whether he wants to or not. Blindfold's thoughts are too 'in flux' to read, and will just fill Ernie's mind with confusion. I don't understand why he would be able to read her mind. Can you explain your stance?

and Madison could control that Space Bullet?

No, it's bigger and much further away (thousands or millions of miles, I think it was stated once but I can't remember how far.) than anything he's ever manipulated. He was able to detect it, though, without it being in his line of sight. So he will be able to track your team by their technology, and know exactly where they are, so that when they are in range of his powers, he can immediately take over their tech.

hmm, if you say so

I'll see if I can dig out my X-Club issues and try to get you a scan. I know he did it during Second Coming as well.

okay, explain how that would be any different if he didn't phase? because what you've given me so far doesn't give me much

Because when he phases into Box, he becomes more machine than man. So his powers are dampened since they rely on his human-ness, and the machine-ness partially overwhelms that human-ness. But he just wears the Penetraitor, he isn't part of it and it isn't part of him. So it doesn't suppress any of his human-ness. That's why his powers shouldn't be hampered at all. It's like when he wears an exo-skeleton and is still able to manipulate a whole complex of robots, like in this scan which I've already posted:

1. how afst were those bullets moving?

As fast as a bullet from a pistol, which is what Taskmaster will be firing.

2. durability feats?

As I've already told you, it was fine after it tanked Wolverine's claws, which are far more destructive than Taskmaster's bullets.

3. how exactly does that happen?

Because at the start of the match, Jeffries will surround my team with thick walls of metal and brick using his powers. I've repeated this plenty of times. Taskmaster cannot run all the way across the map faster than Jeffries can do this a couple of times. He can make a wall almost instantly even when exhausted, so when he's completely fresh and healthy he should have no trouble surrounding my team with walls thick enough to stop Taskmaster's bullets.

this is one of my problems with debating with you, I give one inch towards you and you act like I quit the debate

Hurray, ad hominem rears its ugly head!

1. he would need some amount of time to raise the walls

A very small amount of time, which he will be given plenty of by the time your team crosses the map.

2. he would need some amount of time to recognize and restrain the Sonic Screwdriver

He could talk to it before it gets close so he knows where it is, or he can sense it since I've shown that he can sense things a long way away, or he can manipulate it once it comes in range of his powers since I've shown much greater range than anything you've shown for the Sonic Screwdriver, and you've still given little reason to believe that you can overcome the experience deficit and use the Screwdriver effectively.

(Taskmaster has shown better redaction time)

Since apparently it is now in vogue to make fun of your opponent's typos, I should point out that combining documents has little relevance in a combat scenario.

3. 3. Ernie could Demolish your ambiguous metal walls

If he wasn't getting tossed around and blown to pieces by railguns and sonic cannons while being pummeled by Xanatos' exosuit and getting his powers removed by nullifiers, perhaps he could.

4. I'm not so sure that you could do much through the metal walls either, so Xanatos could probably just shoot through them with his particle beam

If it's really that important to you, Jeffries could use his ability to manipulate glass and make bulletproof windows in the wall so he can see your team. I don't think it's necessary, but whatever makes you happy.

And just how powerful is this infamous particle beam? It sounds like it will be pretty effective when I make Xanatos shoot Ernie with it.

I mean, most of your plans have required getting close to my guys, so I'm seeing my guys killing some of yours

Can you please clarify your timeline of the battle? I honestly have no idea what you think my plans consist of. I foresee the battle going something like:

  1. Battle Starts: My team builds walls and defenses, your team takes over the zombies, detects my team, runs across the map towards my team.
  2. My team continues to build defenses, your team crosses the map and reaches the outer limits of Jeffries' range.
  3. Jeffries takes over Xanatos and destroys the Sonic Screwdriver. Your team, along with Xanatos and zombies, reach the Alley.
  4. Your team attacks my defenses.

And then I claim that your team gets slaughtered by Xanatos and the various weapons and power nullifiers I have built. But the important thing is what you think our teams are doing over the course of the battle before they meet. Because my plan has always been to create defenses and bunker down inside of them, forcing your team to come to me. My team will never be exposed to yours, which is why I don't see you killing them.

"virtually limited" good to know

Hence my sardonic comment about typos.

the rest, conjecture

Try all you want to discredit the Doctor, the fact remains that he's a genius and has practiced for centuries with the Screwdriver. Neither can be said of Taskmaster.

Where does it say their not allowed to use an internet connection? I mean, these rules your using to counter me don't seem to actually come from anywhere. Jokergeist said they practice with em for a month, "only" was not a word used in his restrictions, I don't feel like these counters have much weight behind them

You're assuming that you get a month of prep. You don't. In the OP, it clearly states "No prep is given." All you get is a month to practice with your items. You get basic knowledge of them and a month to practice. Why would Jokergeist stipulate that you only get basic knowledge if you were able to find out more about them through research? He was very clear on what you do in that month. We've already asked him, and he told us this:

How Goodie Bag practice works: A month before the match, you team is given a bag. Inside the bag are the items. They get basic knowledge of what the items do, and practice with 'em for a month. Plain and simple.

You don't get to do any research because this isn't prep. You're just practicing with your items after being given basic knowledge on how they work. That is all. No more, no less.

My phone's not working, so I can't give you a picture his vast array of sources are mentioned in Avengers 195 so, if this does include DW Earth, he would have known this by now

The Doctor isn't a superhero or a supervillain, so he doesn't have knowledge of them. You can't say that Taskmaster has copied Batman's martial arts skills, even though this is a merged universe. You don't get to ascribe resources or powers or skills that your characters don't have just because the universes are merged.

when did Jokergeist say that he couldn't look for videos? in a month of prep, he would get some

It's not a month of prep. You are given a month to practice with your items. You are given no prep. That is why you can't look for videos. You are only given practice time, not prep.

when your free-falling, everything is pretty still from where you are. when your getting blitzed, everything is constantly moving

I've showed you plenty of scans of Jeffries transmuting in the middle of combat. I don't know of any instances where Jeffries has been unable to transmute because of stress. I've even posted a scan where a mentally and emotionally exhausted Jeffries was able to create a wall in the middle of a stressful situation with an attacker near him. I have never seen any reason for your assertion to be valid with regards to Jeffries. And he'll be making his defenses before your team arrives, so he won't really have to transmute once you've attacked, anyway. And again, if things get too hairy he can just teleport my team away. Stop ignoring my points, please.

and my point is that he should have an opportunity to shoot Jeffries before Jeffries manages to hack hios armor, as far as I can tell

And my argument is that Jeffries can control Xanatos because he knows where the exo-suit is thanks to his tech sense and ability to talk to technology. So he should be able to control it as soon as it's in range of his powers, which I have shown to be very large.

because including sound effects is a choice of the author? I mean, do I really need to point out all of the loud things taht happen in comics without any sound effects? so I guess Thor is also relatively silent?

The difference is that Thor's various powers are often shown with sound effects, whereas to the best of my knowledge, Jeffries' transmutation powers are not. And again, this point doesn't actually make a difference in the battle. Either way, I have enough time to build my defenses.

Because that's the best we can assume? there is little evidence to assume otherwise?

Again, this isn't an important point. I've given my arguments, and I stand by them. If you disagree, I'll leave it up to the voters to decide. But since it won't really impact the battle, I don't even care much what the voters decide about it.

Okay, regardless of my characters being bullet dodgers and people of remarkable endurance and regardless of the fact that you made up about half of those defenses, your still hardest on your team being invincible

I have no idea what the point of this sentence was. I understand the individual words, but they don't fit together in any way that makes sense to me.

and somehow your team has defenses before they actually built any defenses, because that makes sense

I have repeatedly explained that my team will build defenses at the start of the match. What doesn't make sense is how your team can attack mine before I've built them. Regardless of how fast you detect my team, you have to take several seconds to cross the map. This is enough time for Jeffries and Forge to make defenses. I said the very same thing in the exact paragraph you're currently lambasting.

practically, your team has essentially nothing to start off with, while my team has everything,

Legitimately unsure what you're talking about here.

your argument against that is based on defenses that you made up that exist in an amorphous state that is somehow always a direct counter to mine,

Not at all the case. I've said the whole match that I'll build railguns, sonic cannons, powers nullifiers, and walls. There is nothing amorphous about it, and it's not really a direct counter to your specific team so much as a generic counter to basic melee and ranged strategies employed by a majority of standard teams. It's not like your team is exceptionally weak to sonics or that most teams don't have ranged attacks that can be blocked by walls. I made a generic defensive template, it isn't tailored to yours at all.

and apparently now happen before you consult your psychic (no, you can't decipher what she's saying while making advanced defenses, that's ridiculous),

I don't need to consult my psychic to complete my generic defensive template. And her speech isn't as convoluted as you're making it seem, anyway.

and on having railguns...how do you just instantly have rail guns out of nowhere?

Because Forge can build anything he can imagine, and he can use Jeffries' transmutation to build it almost instantly. Remember this scan?

Forge and Jeffries have already worked together and even done a shared-mind thing in Box, so this won't be foreign to either of them.

oh, and the power nullifiers, because those are apparently things your team has five seconds into the battle, but I'm sure it'll eb easy enought o build those out of no raw materials while your making defenses out of the same basic elements

I'm glad we're on the same page for once. Forge knows how to build them since he's done it before, and he can mind-link with Jeffries to build a few in moments.

because mini guns eat ammunition like candy?

But they also have, according to wikipedia, anywhere from 500 to 5,000 rounds of ammunition on a single belt, so against only 114 targets, even the minimum should be plenty of ammo.

and now your argument depends on not having evidence against something, so I have to prove a negative to you?

Your argument consists of assuming that the sentry gun does not function in the way it functions in-game, despite the fact that we have been placed in the map from the game. It seems a little far-fetched, but I don't really mind if it's accurate. Seeing as we don't have basic knowledge of the map so I won't be using it anyway, I don't think the sentry gun will be a big deal in the battle.

and you can just make metal walls in nil-time? because that's a very interesting superpower

As I've repeated probably a dozen times, (the words 'metal walls' appear at least 28 times in this debate, for reference), he will be building walls at the start of the battle, before your team has had time to cross the map and attack. I've posted a scan of him making a wall almost instantly, and I've posted plenty of other speed feats for his transmutation. And yes, I think it's a very interesting superpower. That's why Jeffries is one of my favorite characters.

because he would logically require range and speed to just control Xanatos's suit while he's so far away?

He'll just control him once he gets close to the alley. Xanatos wouldn't be of much use if he tried to attack your other characters and zombies all by himself, so I won't force him to attack until you're within range of my defenses.

why is there literally no way for him to react first? your argument doesn't seem to have a very strong base

I feel like there is a fundamental disconnect in how we're visualizing this battle, which is why I want to know your timeline of when things happen. Jeffries will build walls as soon as the battle begins. How is Taskmaster's reaction speed going to let him shoot a bullet through the entire map, walls and all, to a target whose location he has a general idea of at best, bypass a bulletproof suit, and kill Madison all before Jeffries can raise walls which is the first thing he'll do? I honestly don't understand how you think things are going to play out and why you think bullets are going to be effective against my team.

because you really haven't shown any sped feats for wall building that supersede Taskmaster's previous feats

And I don't need to, because we don't start right next to each other. I've shown feats more than sufficient to demonstrate that Jeffries can build walls before your team can cross the entire map, and that's what I have to do. If Taskmaster and Jeffries were starting 10 feet apart, then perhaps Taskmaster would win a quick-draw. Jeffries has been able to redirect a bullet as it's fired, he has a bulletproof suit, and he could teleport away at the speed of thought, so he probably wouldn't die anyway, but Taskmaster's reflexes would at least be of some use in that situation. Unfortunately for your team, you do not start 10 feet away. They start on the opposite side of the map. So they have to cross the map before Taskmaster's reflexes can come into play, and by that time Jeffries will have had ample opportunity to build walls.

I shoot you from behind, no way you could react to the bullets, so that would kill him quickly enough

Please clarify how you expect to get behind my team. I genuinely don't understand. And again, Jeffries has a bulletproof suit.

that counters literally nothing you are making stuff up at this point

You can't 'move to the hall across from him and kill him discretely' because his first instinct is to build defenses, so he will already be defended by the time you can get to the hall across from him. I've repeated this point over and over. By the time your team crosses the map, I will have defenses built up.

And one more time, Jeffries has a bulletproof suit. You can't kill him nearly as easily as you like to claim, even if you had access to him. Which you don't.

no, your building speed for Jeffries has not shown anything of the sort

Please clarify just how fast you think your team is going to cross the map and attack.

also, you have no materials to make the wall

I'm not sure if this is ignorance about Jeffries, ignorance about the map, or malice because you don't like the way I'm debating. But Jeffries has made advanced technology from the very walls of the building he's occupying before, and this map also has lots of metal lying around. There are plenty of materials for him to use.

...............................................so yoru character can just do whateevr?

No, but he can build advanced technology from scrap material. He also is paired with Forge, who can build anything he can think of. So I can do quite a bit with that combo. Which is why I chose it.

I mean, if he can make a railgun out of scrap metal, why not just have him build a nuclear bomb with Blindfold's blindfold?

This is totally impossible. He can't manipulate cloth.

they could escape the blast radius with the teleporter he built from a brick that was lying around.

No need, I have a suit that lets me teleport thanks to my Goodie Bag.

becasue apparently Maddison Jeffries has the power to just build anything out of whatevr is in the envirenment, and his weakness are not in play, because you said so

The Forge-Jeffries combination was intended to give me a capability somewhere along those lines, yes. I like power interactions. What weaknesses are you referring to? The part where his transmutation is limited while he's in Box? Because the only reason that isn't in play is because he doesn't have Box. One of his weaknesses is that he only has human durability, but that is shored up by having him wear the Penetraitor, which gives him bulletproof durability. Other than that, I don't know what weaknesses you're referring to. Can you clarify?

your just being impossible right now, your entire argument depends on someone building a railgun out of old rusty pieces of junk that were lying around

Yes, yes it does. A pretty decent summation. Luckily, I have a character who has the power to do just that, and another character who makes doing so even easier. I made a team that lets me make advanced tech out of whatever junk is lying around. It's a pretty powerful team, which I intended it to be because I hope to win the tournament. If you find it impossible to counter, that means I made a pretty decent team.

I mean, if Maddison Jeffries can just do whatever, why even bother entering him in a tourney,

Because he's an interesting character, one of my favorites, and I like educating people about him. And because he has a pretty unique powerset that lets me debate from an angle I don't usually get to explore, namely technology.

you seem sure enough that there is absolutely no way to counter anything you say about him, and that bringing up any flaw in your logic is backtracking, and entirely unnecessary

There are ways to counter him, although I've tried my best to formulate a team that eliminates his weaknesses. He's powerful, though, I grant you that.

so, I mean, if this guy seriously has absolutely no limits to his powers, than maybe even debating this was pointless

He has limits, but this is a small map where he's not trying to do anything substantial. So he doesn't have to push them.

because he has unlimited speed and range in his technopathy, got it

No, I can't think of him using his technopathy over a range of even a mile. His tech sense extends further, but he doesn't usually manipulate things more than a few hundred feet away. And his transmutation isn't instant, although it's very fast.

yes, if your going to be like that, I guess I can't really argue against that

Is that a concession?

judging By Ernie's previous experience with the military, he's going to laugh all of those off

What kinds of projectiles has Ernie tanked without damage? And has he ever tanked anything with his powers removed?

but, since Jeffries has abosolutely no powers on what he can do, maybe your right

Jeffries has powers, he's a mutant. He has technopathy, we've been talking about this for the entire debate. All three of my characters are mutants with powers, in fact.

I think I'm gonna request a little conversation about the rules before this goes to voting. because, as I see it now, we seem to disagree on what is actually allowed in this tourney

You have now asked Jokergeist in PM and he shot you down. Jeffries is legal. Does that mean you're ready for voting? Because neither of us have brought any substantially new information for the last few posts, and I'm getting tired of going in circles.

#46 Posted by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire said:

@betatesthighlander1

still, that is a bit ABC for a debate

The fact that Cable was able to telepathically stalemate a being as powerful as Dark Phoenix makes him more telepathically impressive than anything you've shown for Ernie. Cable generally is portrayed as an extremely skilled telepath. He wasn't able to read Jeffries' mind. That's my argument. I haven't seen anything to convince me that Ernie would be able to even sneeze at X-Man without getting mind-raped, but you know him better than I do. If he has some amazing telepathic feats that you've been holding in reserve, by all means post them.

uhhhh, Jeffries just has telepathy resistance?

because that's not listed anywhere ass one of his powers

your sure that had nothing to do with an amp for Jeffries or a downgrade for Cable?

@esquire said:

@betatesthighlander1

Still going with Evil Ernie's eyes and ears across the arena and Taskmaster's ability to, at the evry least, amalyze his hearing better than teh average mook

Your team will find me pretty quickly regardless, but I have several seconds to construct defenses in the time it takes you to cross the arena. I don't think you will detect me the very instant the battle begins, but even if you do it will take you several seconds to cross the map. In that time, Jeffries and Forge can be building defenses. So this isn't a particularly major point, no matter which of us is correct.

yeah, you have to materials for building defenses

just magnetic field out of glass?

not buying it

@esquire said:

also, I know this is contested, but EE's telepathy would certainly help (IMO)

You posted a single scan which you claim is him psychically messing around in the mind of someone who, as far as I know, is an unenhanced human with zero telepathy resistance. Blindfold has blocked Cassandra Nova, who mind-raped Charles Xavier when he was in Cerebra. Nova has better telepathic feats than anything I've seen for Ernie, and Blindfold blocked her from entering Cyclops' mind. So she should be able to block Ernie, who seems to be a far weaker telepath, from entering Forge's mind.

anyways, the wiki states that the problem was with Emma's style of mind-reading, not her amount of power so I don't think EE would have to be a more powerful telepath at all to read her mind

In the snippet you posted, it states unambiguously:

"her mind cannot be read telepathically."

Just saying.

I don't see anything about style, and I don't know what different 'style' of mindreading Ernie would be employing, anyway. As you have explained it, Ernie 'hears the surface thoughts' of those around him, whether he wants to or not. Blindfold's thoughts are too 'in flux' to read, and will just fill Ernie's mind with confusion. I don't understand why he would be able to read her mind. Can you explain your stance?

yeah, your doing a good job at totally ignoring everything that I stated

I especially liked when you picked the single, out of context quote that would make it seem like you were right

your being impossible right now

@esquire said:

and Madison could control that Space Bullet?

No, it's bigger and much further away (thousands or millions of miles, I think it was stated once but I can't remember how far.) than anything he's ever manipulated. He was able to detect it, though, without it being in his line of sight. So he will be able to track your team by their technology, and know exactly where they are, so that when they are in range of his powers, he can immediately take over their tech.

but none of my guys have millions of tons of tech on them

so the space-bullet would not seem to apply

@esquire said:

hmm, if you say so

I'll see if I can dig out my X-Club issues and try to get you a scan. I know he did it during Second Coming as well.

okay, sure

@esquire said:

okay, explain how that would be any different if he didn't phase? because what you've given me so far doesn't give me much

Because when he phases into Box, he becomes more machine than man. So his powers are dampened since they rely on his human-ness, and the machine-ness partially overwhelms that human-ness. But he just wears the Penetraitor, he isn't part of it and it isn't part of him. So it doesn't suppress any of his human-ness. That's why his powers shouldn't be hampered at all. It's like when he wears an exo-skeleton and is still able to manipulate a whole complex of robots, like in this scan which I've already posted:

and how that scan shows him using telepathy far above the limits, if what you've told me about the character is true

anyways, what he's wearing there isn't really a conventional mech suit, while the Penetraitor suit is

so, not buying it

@esquire said:


1. how afst were those bullets moving?

As fast as a bullet from a pistol, which is what Taskmaster will be firing.

2. durability feats?

As I've already told you, it was fine after it tanked Wolverine's claws, which are far more destructive than Taskmaster's bullets.

3. how exactly does that happen?

Because at the start of the match, Jeffries will surround my team with thick walls of metal and brick using his powers. I've repeated this plenty of times. Taskmaster cannot run all the way across the map faster than Jeffries can do this a couple of times. He can make a wall almost instantly even when exhausted, so when he's completely fresh and healthy he should have no trouble surrounding my team with walls thick enough to stop Taskmaster's bullets.

this is one of my problems with debating with you, I give one inch towards you and you act like I quit the debateHurray, ad hominem rears its ugly head!

1. A bullet from a pistol?

the range there is about 780-2700 FPS, so that doesn't really work

2. and it has no weak points in it at all?

3. what suggests in even the vaguest of terms that he was moving fast when he made that wall?

@esquire said:

This is one of my problems with debating with you, I give one inch towards you and you act like I quit the debate

Hurray, ad hominem rears its ugly head!

sorry, One of My Problems with your argument is that it depends on me admitting things that I had not actually admitted

@esquire said:

1. he would need some amount of time to raise the walls

A very small amount of time, which he will be given plenty of by the time your team crosses the map.

2. he would need some amount of time to recognize and restrain the Sonic Screwdriver

He could talk to it before it gets close so he knows where it is, or he can sense it since I've shown that he can sense things a long way away, or he can manipulate it once it comes in range of his powers since I've shown much greater range than anything you've shown for the Sonic Screwdriver, and you've still given little reason to believe that you can overcome the experience deficit and use the Screwdriver effectively.

I have evidence that they would be able to use the Sonic Screwdriver, your just making up new rules so that you can ignore it.

also, what suggests he could talk to Gallefeyan tech?

what suggests he could sense something so small?

@esquire said:

(Taskmaster has shown better redaction time)

Since apparently it is now in vogue to make fun of your opponent's typos, I should point out that combining documents has little relevance in a combat scenario.

sorry, are you trying to have a mature debate?

because you just got mad at me for using Ad Hominem, now your totally cool doing anything that I'ev already done

@esquire said:

3. 3. Ernie could Demolish your ambiguous metal walls

If he wasn't getting tossed around and blown to pieces by railguns and sonic cannons while being pummeled by Xanatos' exosuit and getting his powers removed by nullifiers, perhaps he could.

so yoru saying he'll be able to do that just fine?

because you have shown nothing to suggest that they could make any of that stuff

@esquire said:

4. I'm not so sure that you could do much through the metal walls either, so Xanatos could probably just shoot through them with his particle beam

If it's really that important to you, Jeffries could use his ability to manipulate glass and make bulletproof windows in the wall so he can see your team. I don't think it's necessary, but whatever makes you happy.

And just how powerful is this infamous particle beam? It sounds like it will be pretty effective when I make Xanatos shoot Ernie with it.

so, you have scans of Jeffries making bulletproof glass?

or can he just "do whatever"

@esquire said:

I mean, most of your plans have required getting close to my guys, so I'm seeing my guys killing some of yours

Can you please clarify your timeline of the battle? I honestly have no idea what you think my plans consist of. I foresee the battle going something like:

  1. Battle Starts: My team builds walls and defenses, your team takes over the zombies, detects my team, runs across the map towards my team.
  2. My team continues to build defenses, your team crosses the map and reaches the outer limits of Jeffries' range.
  3. Jeffries takes over Xanatos and destroys the Sonic Screwdriver. Your team, along with Xanatos and zombies, reach the Alley.
  4. Your team attacks my defenses.

And then I claim that your team gets slaughtered by Xanatos and the various weapons and power nullifiers I have built. But the important thing is what you think our teams are doing over the course of the battle before they meet. Because my plan has always been to create defenses and bunker down inside of them, forcing your team to come to me. My team will never be exposed to yours, which is why I don't see you killing them.

so, since we last debated it ahs stopped being abd form to change your strategy halfway through a thread when someone pokes holes in it?

okay, putting your points next to bullets does not actually construct an argument, so there's that

what Power nullifiers?

your making up more and more with every post, this argument cannot be reasoned with!

and I think My team is fast enough to get to you before you build your defenses, you have shown absolutely no speed feast to suggest otherwise, I have shown plenty of speed feats for Taskmaster

as far as I can see it he just snipes your entire team before they can really raise any defenses

again, my team has a huuuuge speed and range advantage, so they should pretty easily snipe

@esquire said:

"virtually limited" good to know

Hence my sardonic comment about typos.

the rest, conjecture

Try all you want to discredit the Doctor, the fact remains that he's a genius and has practiced for centuries with the Screwdriver. Neither can be said of Taskmaster.

say what you want about conjecture, but you still have no relevant information

that countered nothing

@esquire said:

Where does it say their not allowed to use an internet connection? I mean, these rules your using to counter me don't seem to actually come from anywhere. Jokergeist said they practice with em for a month, "only" was not a word used in his restrictions, I don't feel like these counters have much weight behind them

You're assuming that you get a month of prep. You don't. In the OP, it clearly states "No prep is given." All you get is a month to practice with your items. You get basic knowledge of them and a month to practice. Why would Jokergeist stipulate that you only get basic knowledge if you were able to find out more about them through research? He was very clear on what you do in that month. We've already asked him, and he told us this:

How Goodie Bag practice works: A month before the match, you team is given a bag. Inside the bag are the items. They get basic knowledge of what the items do, and practice with 'em for a month. Plain and simple.

You don't get to do any research because this isn't prep. You're just practicing with your items after being given basic knowledge on how they work. That is all. No more, no less.

and it says that they have no access to their resources in that amount of time?

I says "the characters are locked up in a pocket dimension where they will have nothing but their resources for a month"

you re literally making up new rules to counter me

This debate is impossible, because any time I point out a flaw, apparently the rules have now shifted in your favor

No, my team does do exactly what I said because no rules that are actually in play would stop that

@esquire said:

My phone's not working, so I can't give you a picture his vast array of sources are mentioned in Avengers 195 so, if this does include DW Earth, he would have known this by now

The Doctor isn't a superhero or a supervillain, so he doesn't have knowledge of them. You can't say that Taskmaster has copied Batman's martial arts skills, even though this is a merged universe. You don't get to ascribe resources or powers or skills that your characters don't have just because the universes are merged.

why not?

Give me a single, solitary reason why that is an improper argument

because arguments don't become improper simply by saying that they are

@esquire said:

when your free-falling, everything is pretty still from where you are. when your getting blitzed, everything is constantly moving

I've showed you plenty of scans of Jeffries transmuting in the middle of combat. I don't know of any instances where Jeffries has been unable to transmute because of stress. I've even posted a scan where a mentally and emotionally exhausted Jeffries was able to create a wall in the middle of a stressful situation with an attacker near him. I have never seen any reason for your assertion to be valid with regards to Jeffries. And he'll be making his defenses before your team arrives, so he won't really have to transmute once you've attacked, anyway. And again, if things get too hairy he can just teleport my team away. Stop ignoring my points, please.

I'm not ignoring your points

I'm just pointing out that the points depend on falsehoods to properly function

you have no evidence that Jeffries would move with nearly enough sped to do something like that

so, yeah, I'm no seeing taht argument as way to valid

@esquire said:

and my point is that he should have an opportunity to shoot Jeffries before Jeffries manages to hack hios armor, as far as I can tell

And my argument is that Jeffries can control Xanatos because he knows where the exo-suit is thanks to his tech sense and ability to talk to technology. So he should be able to control it as soon as it's in range of his powers, which I have shown to be very large.

well, every feat you've shown me for control has Jeffries amped by the Box suit (or do the amps only cover what you want them to cover?)

so Xanatos just shoots him while he's out of Jeffries's range (JK, Taskmaster would have killed your team at that point)

@esquire said:

because including sound effects is a choice of the author? I mean, do I really need to point out all of the loud things taht happen in comics without any sound effects? so I guess Thor is also relatively silent?

The difference is that Thor's various powers are often shown with sound effects, whereas to the best of my knowledge, Jeffries' transmutation powers are not. And again, this point doesn't actually make a difference in the battle. Either way, I have enough time to build my defenses.

actually, My guys have superior speed from all I've seen

so, yeah, I think I'll eb abel to break in and kill them before any of that happens

anyways, metal moving makes sound and you have shown absolutely nothing that would even vaguely suggest that it would be any different than Jeffries

@esquire said:

Because that's the best we can assume? there is little evidence to assume otherwise?

Again, this isn't an important point. I've given my arguments, and I stand by them. If you disagree, I'll leave it up to the voters to decide. But since it won't really impact the battle, I don't even care much what the voters decide about it.

okay then, this is pretty impossible to counter

@esquire said:

Okay, regardless of my characters being bullet dodgers and people of remarkable endurance and regardless of the fact that you made up about half of those defenses, your still hardest on your team being invincible

I have no idea what the point of this sentence was. I understand the individual words, but they don't fit together in any way that makes sense to me.

Okay, sorry, I meant hardset, not hardest

@esquire said:

and somehow your team has defenses before they actually built any defenses, because that makes sense

I have repeatedly explained that my team will build defenses at the start of the match. What doesn't make sense is how your team can attack mine before I've built them. Regardless of how fast you detect my team, you have to take several seconds to cross the map. This is enough time for Jeffries and Forge to make defenses. I said the very same thing in the exact paragraph you're currently lambasting.

again, you have essentially no feats to suggest that you can manipulate anything at that kind of speed

And that's my problem

@esquire said:

and on having railguns...how do you just instantly have rail guns out of nowhere?

Because Forge can build anything he can imagine, and he can use Jeffries' transmutation to build it almost instantly. Remember this scan?

Forge and Jeffries have already worked together and even done a shared-mind thing in Box, so this won't be foreign to either of them.

that involved previously present technology

so, yeah, you are pretty much making all of this up

that makes debating very difficult

@esquire said:

O h, and the power nullifiers, because those are apparently things your team has five seconds into the battle, but I'm sure it'll eb easy enought o build those out of no raw materials while your making defenses out of the same basic elements

I'm glad we're on the same page for once. Forge knows how to build them since he's done it before, and he can mind-link with Jeffries to build a few in moments.

gonna need scans on that

@esquire said:

because mini guns eat ammunition like candy?

But they also have, according to wikipedia, anywhere from 500 to 5,000 rounds of ammunition on a single belt, so against only 114 targets, even the minimum should be plenty of ammo.

so, during, say, Vietnam, we got one kill for every 5,000 rounds expended

so, 500 should be far from enough to take care of 100 targets

@esquire said:

and now your argument depends on not having evidence against something, so I have to prove a negative to you?

Your argument consists of assuming that the sentry gun does not function in the way it functions in-game, despite the fact that we have been placed in the map from the game. It seems a little far-fetched, but I don't really mind if it's accurate. Seeing as we don't have basic knowledge of the map so I won't be using it anyway, I don't think the sentry gun will be a big deal in the battle.

oh, okay

@esquire said:

and you can just make metal walls in nil-time? because that's a very interesting superpower

As I've repeated probably a dozen times, (the words 'metal walls' appear at least 28 times in this debate, for reference), he will be building walls at the start of the battle, before your team has had time to cross the map and attack. I've posted a scan of him making a wall almost instantly, and I've posted plenty of other speed feats for his transmutation. And yes, I think it's a very interesting superpower. That's why Jeffries is one of my favorite characters.

you have not actually shown a scan of him building a wall almost instantly

He's clearly taking some time to buil all of the walls you've shown me

My problem with this argument is that it has no base

@esquire said:

because he would logically require range and speed to just control Xanatos's suit while he's so far away?

He'll just control him once he gets close to the alley. Xanatos wouldn't be of much use if he tried to attack your other characters and zombies all by himself, so I won't force him to attack until you're within range of my defenses.

oh, in that case Xanatos just shoots you form the other side of the wall through that glass you made up

bam, I win

honesly, at this point I'm not sure if this is even worth continuing, considering I have a clear oppurtunity to kill your guys

#47 Edited by Betatesthighlander1 (7462 posts) - - Show Bio

Okay, I was really mad during most of that I just posted, let's see if I can do better this time

@esquire said:

why is there literally no way for him to react first? your argument doesn't seem to have a very strong base

I feel like there is a fundamental disconnect in how we're visualizing this battle, which is why I want to know your timeline of when things happen. Jeffries will build walls as soon as the battle begins. How is Taskmaster's reaction speed going to let him shoot a bullet through the entire map, walls and all, to a target whose location he has a general idea of at best, bypass a bulletproof suit, and kill Madison all before Jeffries can raise walls which is the first thing he'll do? I honestly don't understand how you think things are going to play out and why you think bullets are going to be effective against my team.

He just has to jump in before Jeffries finishes the wall

And none of your guys have the speed to deal with Taskmaster

@esquire said:

because you really haven't shown any sped feats for wall building that supersede Taskmaster's previous feats

And I don't need to, because we don't start right next to each other. I've shown feats more than sufficient to demonstrate that Jeffries can build walls before your team can cross the entire map, and that's what I have to do. If Taskmaster and Jeffries were starting 10 feet apart, then perhaps Taskmaster would win a quick-draw. Jeffries has been able to redirect a bullet as it's fired, he has a bulletproof suit, and he could teleport away at the speed of thought, so he probably wouldn't die anyway, but Taskmaster's reflexes would at least be of some use in that situation. Unfortunately for your team, you do not start 10 feet away. They start on the opposite side of the map. So they have to cross the map before Taskmaster's reflexes can come into play, and by that time Jeffries will have had ample opportunity to build walls.

seventy feet?

yeah, that's not to big of a difference for a guy who blitzes bullet timers

By all evidence, Taskmaster should be able to make it across quite quickly

your walls seem like they should take a while

@esquire said:

no, your building speed for Jeffries has not shown anything of the sort

Please clarify just how fast you think your team is going to cross the map and attack.

should not actually take more than a couple seconds

@esquire said:

also, you have no materials to make the wall

I'm not sure if this is ignorance about Jeffries, ignorance about the map, or malice because you don't like the way I'm debating. But Jeffries has made advanced technology from the very walls of the building he's occupying before, and this map also has lots of metal lying around. There are plenty of materials for him to use.

he's made power nullifiers from those?

@esquire said:

...............................................so yoru character can just do whateevr?

No, but he can build advanced technology from scrap material. He also is paired with Forge, who can build anything he can think of. So I can do quite a bit with that combo. Which is why I chose it.

so, Forge can just do whatever?

I mean, if he can make a railgun out of scrap metal, why not just have him build a nuclear bomb with Blindfold's blindfold?

This is totally impossible. He can't manipulate cloth.

they could escape the blast radius with the teleporter he built from a brick that was lying around.

No need, I have a suit that lets me teleport thanks to my Goodie Bag.

okay, good to know you settled on a character wanked enough that even my joke suggestion seemed serious

@esquire said:

becasue apparently Maddison Jeffries has the power to just build anything out of whatevr is in the envirenment, and his weakness are not in play, because you said so

The Forge-Jeffries combination was intended to give me a capability somewhere along those lines, yes. I like power interactions. What weaknesses are you referring to? The part where his transmutation is limited while he's in Box? Because the only reason that isn't in play is because he doesn't have Box. One of his weaknesses is that he only has human durability, but that is shored up by having him wear the Penetraitor, which gives him bulletproof durability. Other than that, I don't know what weaknesses you're referring to. Can you clarify?

yeah, got it, robot suits have no quantifiable effect except sometimes

@esquire said:

your just being impossible right now, your entire argument depends on someone building a railgun out of old rusty pieces of junk that were lying around

Yes, yes it does. A pretty decent summation. Luckily, I have a character who has the power to do just that, and another character who makes doing so even easier. I made a team that lets me make advanced tech out of whatever junk is lying around. It's a pretty powerful team, which I intended it to be because I hope to win the tournament. If you find it impossible to counter, that means I made a pretty decent team.

okay, show me Jeffries doing that

or can he just do whatever?

@esquire said:

I mean, if Maddison Jeffries can just do whatever, why even bother entering him in a tourney,

Because he's an interesting character, one of my favorites, and I like educating people about him. And because he has a pretty unique powerset that lets me debate from an angle I don't usually get to explore, namely technology.

it has nothing to do with Jeffries ability to have no weaknesses and do anything?

or the fact that his telekinesis is clearly above limits?

you seem sure enough that there is absolutely no way to counter anything you say about him, and that bringing up any flaw in your logic is backtracking, and entirely unnecessary

There are ways to counter him, although I've tried my best to formulate a team that eliminates his weaknesses. He's powerful, though, I grant you that.

okay, so you admit that you refuse to recognize any weakness whatsoever?

yes, if your going to be like that, I guess I can't really argue against that

Is that a concession?

I was going to say something clever, but this is just tiring

I guess my questiuion is"will you eve admit any scenario in which Jeffries would lose?"

if you can honestly say that you wouldn't admit any defeat, than maybe I have been arguing against a wall this whole time

you tell me if that was a concession

@esquire said:

@betatesthighlander1

judging By Ernie's previous experience with the military, he's going to laugh all of those off

What kinds of projectiles has Ernie tanked without damage? And has he ever tanked anything with his powers removed?

1. he's llead charges against tanks

2. what does that have to do with anything?

can you show me Jeffries making a power nullifier out of scraps?

I mean, I guess Ernie has taken down plenty of police and whatnot before he had powers, but that really doesn't apply, because he has powers in this scenario

@esquire said:

but, since Jeffries has abosolutely no powers on what he can do, maybe your right

Jeffries has powers, he's a mutant. He has technopathy, we've been talking about this for the entire debate. All three of my characters are mutants with powers, in fact.

yes, but apparently no limits

@esquire said:

I think I'm gonna request a little conversation about the rules before this goes to voting. because, as I see it now, we seem to disagree on what is actually allowed in this tourney

You have now asked Jokergeist in PM and he shot you down. Jeffries is legal. Does that mean you're ready for voting? Because neither of us have brought any substantially new information for the last few posts, and I'm getting tired of going in circles.

regardless of our seemingly amorphous rules, Jeffries is illegal based off of the rules set up in the beginning, although I geuss the rules don't matter anymore in this tourney

Look, I'm still debating this, if you want to stop, I can't actually make any more posts until someone else comments, so I guess this is all in your hands now

just do this however you want, you clearly have more sway than I

I do have a couple questions left

  1. when has Jeffries made a power nullifier?
  2. does it work on psychic and magic powersets?
  3. do you have any actual speed feats for his wall-building?
  4. can you show me Jeffries making any of the weapons you mentioned?
  5. is it actually in character for all of your guys to just design machines to murder two people?
  6. is it or is it not bad form to change your strategy partially through a debate?

there are probably others, but i'm to tired to list them all

#48 Edited by Esquire (3742 posts) - - Show Bio

@betatesthighlander1

I'm not entirely sure why or whose fault it is, but there seems to be a fundamental disconnect in the way we're viewing virtually every aspect of this debate. I'm not going to quote and respond point-by-point, because most of those points are going in circles and/or have descended into vitriol. Instead, I'm going to attempt a summary of both of our cases. That way, you can look at the way I'm seeing things and tell me the ways in which they differ from your views. Once we have pinpointed the places we disagree or don't understand each other, we can attempt to clarify our positions and provide relevant evidence. So, without further ado, here is what I've understood from our debate:

My case:

My team:

  1. Opens the battle by building walls, which I think should happen very quickly. Blindfold begins viewing the near future in an attempt to figure out any weaknesses in both of our strategies and teams.
  2. Forge mind-links with Jeffries to build power nullifiers, sonic cannons, and railguns.
  3. Your team gets within range of the defenses, and Jeffries takes over Xanatos' exosuit and uses it to attack your team. Blindfold tells Forge about any gaps in the defenses that you will try to exploit, and he does his best to shore them up.
  4. Your team attacks and is held off by the defenses.

Your team:

  1. Opens the battle by trying to pinpoint my location. (In your early posts you said that they would talk to each other and form a strategy, but you seem to have abandoned that in later posts. Is that still part of your plan?)
  2. Once they detect me, your team rushes for my position. Ernie controls all the zombies on the map and has them rush to the same place.
  3. When they arrive, Xanatos gets controlled by Jeffries.
  4. Your team gets taken down by my defenses.

Your Case:

My team:

  1. Tries to build defenses.
  2. Gets blitzed by Taskmaster and all die immediately.

Your Team:

  1. Detect my team.
  2. Have Taskmaster blitz and instantly kill all of my team. (You've also said he would snipe them, but I don't see how that's possible in an indoor map with few windows. It also doesn't seem to be what you usually plan on.)

My biggest question for you:

  • Jokergeist said, when you asked him in the PM, that the map was 200 meters by 200 meters. The fastest recorded time ever to run 200 meters is 19.19 seconds. This was running on a flat track in optimal conditions with specially made footwear and no gear to encumber the runner. Even if he's twice as fast as Usain Bolt, (and I don't think he is), there's still no way Taskmaster is making it to my team in under 10 seconds. I would say 20 seconds is a generous estimate, because here, there are stairs, doors, and Taskmaster is carrying a ton of gear. And even if you immediately detect my team, you still don't know the layout of the map. So by the time Taskmaster finds his way to my team, it will have been 25-30 seconds, quite possibly more. So I would like you to defend your claim that it will only take 'a couple seconds' for you to cross the map and attack.

To answer your list of questions:

when has Jeffries made a power nullifier?

He hasn't, but Forge has made several. He has one in his cyborg leg that can project a field that nullifies powers, and he made one that permanently removed Storm's powers, (he eventually gave them back), and one that inhibited Mystique's powers. And as I've showed, Forge can mind-link to use Jeffries' transmutation in order to build complicated tech.

does it work on psychic and magic powersets?

The one he used on Storm was supposed to remove any superhuman powers, iirc. He's also built psychic dampeners, so psychic shouldn't be a problem. And his power is literally 'build anything he can think of,' and he's a trained Shaman with a lot of magical experience, so he shouldn't have any trouble compensating for magical powersets. He's usually limited in effectiveness because he has to build everything by hand, but the Jeffries Mind-link makes him able to build things much more quickly.

do you have any actual speed feats for his wall-building?

In the scan I keep posting, Jeffries interrupts the Weapon X Director in the middle of a sentence, and there is no wall. Jeffries is able to build a wall during the sentence that he interrupts with. That means he's building it in at most a couple of seconds, and he's already utterly exhausted before he builds it. So when he's fresh, he should be able to build much faster.

can you show me Jeffries making any of the weapons you mentioned?

This is him transforming Box, but the main and most basic point of Box is that it's just raw material that protects him and gives him stuff to transmute. So he should be able to build the same thing from raw materials, since he's made Box out of raw materials in the past.

Here he is making sonic blasters, a machine gun, and various guns.

And Forge can use the mind-link to build railguns. I only use them as an option because they don't rely on things like gunpowder, which Jeffries can't make.

is it actually in character for all of your guys to just design machines to murder two people?

Forge is currently part of X-Force, so that's basically his whole job right now. And Jeffries has loose enough morals that he's gone so far as to help Alpha Flight nuke part of Canada in order to take out a supervillain.

is it or is it not bad form to change your strategy partially through a debate?

The only part of my strategy that has changed is when I removed the part about Jeffries teleporting around reinforcing doors and teleporting my team to the best defensive position. And I explained this change in detail already. I had started the debate under the impression that we understood the layout of the map, when in fact we do not. Since I don't know where the doors and the best defensive position are, I can't teleport to them. I only removed a minor part of my strategy because the rules of the tournament made it impossible. I don't think that's bad form at all. In fact, I think it would instead be bad form to continue with that portion of my strategy since it was invalidated by the tournament creator. Other than that, my strategy is and always has been to have Jeffries and Forge build defenses around my location while Blindfold uses her precog to figure out weaknesses in both of our teams and strategies.

So now that I've tried to answer your questions and laid out how I'm seeing our views, can you tell me how you're seeing the match going and what parts of my strategy -- as laid out in this post -- you find objectionable? I think most of the unpleasant aspects of this debate have arisen from us misunderstanding each other, so this is my attempt to clarify what we've been trying to say to one another.

And finally, @jokergeist, can you please clarify one more time what is allowed to happen during our month of Goodie Bag practice?

My position: You are given a month to practice, and within that time your team can only practice with their Goodie Bag items. They can't do research, they can't break into places, they can't do they can only practice with their items and do nothing else.

Beta's position: You are given a month to prep how you'd like, whether it be doing research, breaking into places to find information, performing experiments, or anything else you would like to do. Practicing with your items is merely one option, along with any other normal options for prep.

#49 Posted by DireDrill (2064 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire: While it is nice that you posted a good synopsis in as understanding a manner as possible, Beta just does not care about that and will still try and BS his way to victory which unfortunately seems to work more than it should.

The disconnect is not with you, it comes entirely from Beta as I have made abundantly clear.

#50 Posted by Jokergeist (4898 posts) - - Show Bio
@esquire said:

My position: You are given a month to practice, and within that time your team can only practice with their Goodie Bag items. They can't do research, they can't break into places, they can't do they can only practice with their items and do nothing else.

Right. The month is exclusive to practicing with their Goodie Bag items. It's not an extra month of free prep.