john stewart vs hal jordan

Hal should win.

PS: How did this turn into Superman vs Wonder Woman?

@Zoom: All I'm saying is that here are better examples to use than that. Wonder Woman isn't even that weak, anymore.

The story still being canon doesn't take away from the fact that Wonder Woman, at the time, was weaker than she was during Post-Crisis continuity.

"Hal should win.PS: How did this turn into Superman vs Wonder Woman? "

@Zoom said:

" @Silver2467 said:

" @Zoom said:

" Superman is the 2nd fastest Justice Leaguer, the 2nd smartest, the strongest and the toughest.

He can take out the Manhunter from Mars by looking at him. Green Lanterns can't keep up with him. Wonder Woman is a decent fight for him but he frankly outmuscles her by a significant margin considering she's hurt herself punching characters that Superman has punched into unconsciousness. The only member of the Justice League that beats Superman more often than not one on one would be the Flash, who is significantly less durable than Superman to the point where Superman can easily beat the Flash via ambush.

If he clocks the Flash and blasts the Manhunter in the initial attack, then he's only got to beat Wonder Woman and Green Lantern, which I think he can do a little more often than not.

I don't see any of the other Justice Leaguers taking out Superman and the Flash before the other reacts and I don't see any of them beating Superman or the Flash one on one once they realize they're in a fight. I honestly don't think a Green Lantern can beat Superman even if they get the jump on him. Poke him in the eyes? He's still got super hearing and in a well written story where he isn't amped by Parallax, John would learn the hard way how well his constructs hold up against a guy who can pull the moon moving at the speed of light.

"

The Manhunter can just phase through his heat vision (he has done this before), can match power output on his heat vision (he has done this before too), and can withstand it (Martians have done this before as well). J'onn has matched Superman's combat speed before, has shown FTL travel speed, and has comparable reaction feats. Superman is not much faster, and the Martian can one-shot him by phasing through him (Fernus beat him this way, and J'onn has one-shotted Kryptonian-class characters this way before also). He could also just wreck Superman telepathically (he has done this as well, as have other Martians), use his shape shifting to beat him physically (done this), and combine several other powers to beat him. As well, J'onn has already proven able to handle punches from Superman and characters stronger than him while also trading punches with them and demonstrating similar strength feats (lifting ice caps, throwing colossal ships, helping to move the moon, helping to move the earth, etc.). Like I said, Lanterns have shown the reaction time to contend with Superman. They also have greater durability via shields, far more versatility, and superior destructive capacity. As for moving celestial bodies, Lanterns have done that as well. Numerous times. There is also the matter of Kyle generating a shield that contained Ultraman for hours, as an example, and Lanterns have fared well against Superman before, as I mentioned above. Wonder Woman is not that much weaker than Superman is. He has better strength feats, sure, but hers are comparable (she has aided in moving the moon twice and helped move the earth). As for durability, he is more resilient against energy attacks but not so much in blunt force trauma."

The point was that Superman could take out the Martian before they knew they were fighting. Green Lanterns do not have reaction time to contend with Superman. Not even close. Wonder Woman is significantly weaker than Superman to the point where a Green Lantern cannot make up the difference in a fight between the two."

It doesn't matter if a human doesn't have the reaction time of a Kryptonian..........

He can set his ring to do that for him........................

@Zoom said:

"@Velle Perhaps I'm misremembering. Were Hal's powers internalized? Because before Parallax was a giant space bug, the power was all Hal's. I still don't see how Green Lantern is supposed to beat the Flash (when he's gotta worry about Superman, Wonder Woman and Zatanna). Flash wasn't caught off guard. John flew after him and shot at him and when it cut back to John, Wally was down. I just don't buy it. It doesn't fit with the previously established trend of the weakest Flashes stomping people that are around John's power level. Parallax was influencing John but it's still very obvious to me that he was amped. I don't see any member of the Justice League soloing the rest of the League save Superman and the Flash. Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman and Green Lantern are powerful people and they could probably take out any one member of the League by sucker punching them but I don't see any of them capable of beating Superman or the Flash in a straight fight and unless you can take down Superman and the Flash at the same time, if you attack them together, you're gonna have to beat at least one of them."

Parallax's powers were always internalized in Hal, he's never had rings...

I have the issues (48, 49 50) at home, where Hal flies to Oa defeating every GL in his path, beating Kilowog, killing Sinestro, then killing Kilowog, going inside the battery absorbing it's power, coming out and crushing his old ring........................

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about GL beating the JLA, despite that there is no evid3ence of John or anyone else being influenced by Parallax, being amped.....

@Zoom

If anything GLs are weaker in this state, since tIf anything GLs are weaker in this state, since they are susceptible to yellow again.............

(sorry about the continuous reply, computer was acting up)

I'm interested to see if any GLs have actually used that power as opposed to just saying they're using it.

The point was that Superman could take out the Martian before they knew they were fighting.

Not true. Superman had to use all of his strength to break through John's constructs at one point, and GL shields have sustained attacks far worse than Superman's blows. In fact, Kyle has tanked a punch from Superman and practically laughed it off before, and has fought powerhouses in his weight class several times. Hal has done the same; so has Guy. Guy shrugged off a hit from Captain Marvel once and was basically manhandling the JLA, which consisted of Captain Marvel, Martian Manhunter, Mister Miracle, Blue Beetle/Ted, and Black Canary (Batman and Doctor Fate were members also but arrived at this later). Kilowog has beaten on Superman before as well. As for speed, Lanterns have demonstrated the reaction time and combat speed to contend with Kryptonians on numerous occasions. Kyle alone has shown FTL reflexes twice just that I can name off the top of my head. Even low-tier Lanterns have shown nanosecond operational speeds before. And, Zoom, come on, Wonder Woman is not beating a top tier Lantern. She had enough difficulty with Procanon Kaa, whose constructs were hindered by his current emotional state, and he has virtually no feats. She does not compare to them at all. 

I am not disputing the idea of Flash beating Lanterns or even that Superman would be altogether incapable of it, nor am I saying that John soloing the League is legit. But you're not giving them enough credit.    

The original point that was being made was that just because John Stewart attacked the Justice League out of the blue doesn't mean that he could beat them without the power amp he got.

"The original point that was being made was that just because John Stewart attacked the Justice League out of the blue doesn't mean that he could beat them without the power amp he got.

Someone said that almost any Justice Leaguer could beat the rest of the Justice League if they just jumped them.

I said no, only Superman or the Flash could do that.

So yes, for the purpose of this debate, Superman is not only ambushing the Martian Manhunter but the Manhunter has no reason to believe that Superman is even fighting him.  This is Supes speedblitzing his team out of the blue, similar to John Stewart's attack during GL Rebirth, which was obviously amped by Parallax (who was possessing him at the time) because John couldn't just beat the Justice League under his own power, which is the point I was trying to make but it got lost in the clutter.

"

A well written MM would not be blindsided by Kal..........

Like Silver said MM has 9 senses, plus telepathy, shapeshifting, intangibility, etc......

Supes' speed, and strength isn't very much higher than MM's own, Supes wouldn't take him out "by looking at him"...........

MM himself is more than a match for the JLA under non-PIS/WIS/CIS circumstances............. 

"The original point that was being made was that just because John Stewart attacked the Justice League out of the blue doesn't mean that he could beat them without the power amp he got.

Someone said that almost any Justice Leaguer could beat the rest of the Justice League if they just jumped them.

I said no, only Superman or the Flash could do that.

So yes, for the purpose of this debate, Superman is not only ambushing the Martian Manhunter but the Manhunter has no reason to believe that Superman is even fighting him.  This is Supes speedblitzing his team out of the blue, similar to John Stewart's attack during GL Rebirth, which was obviously amped by Parallax (who was possessing him at the time) because John couldn't just beat the Justice League under his own power, which is the point I was trying to make but it got lost in the clutter.

"

Another thing is that GLs are capale of FTL movement (all GLs are seen doing this), intangibility (John went intangible every other comic right before the Mosaic arcs, Hal did this as well arouind this time), telepathy (Hal and John have multiple showings of this), among other abilities that should put them way above what they are currently portrayed as.....

I don't think you're giving them enough credit.............

Screw this,Batman solos all.

"Screw this,Batman solos all. "

going with hal for this fight.

also think superman can take on the enitre justice league

" Screw this,Batman solos all. "

"John wins this fight against Hal. If he wanted to he could snipe Hal from over three sectors away. No mess, no fuss. "

" @Mr Creesy said:

"John wins this fight against Hal. If he wanted to he could snipe Hal from over three sectors away. No mess, no fuss. "

You make it sound simple for John.  "

1. John is the best flier in the Corps. Hal said this himself, so a fight in the air is favoring John.
2. John's will power should be unquestioned. If it came down to a battle of will power between John and Hal, John would win. Until another lantern will power exceeds the capabilities of their ring. No other Lantern is going to slug it out with a blood lusted John.
3. John is the better strategist imo. John was a Marine before he was a GL. Marines are the best trained soldiers in the world.  All they do is come up with new effective ways to kill. Place the power of a GL in the hands of a veteran Marine (who has incalculable will) and the victor becomes clear.
   

" @Mr Creesy: Just because they are both bloodlusted doesn't mean that it's going to be simple for John. Hal and John have both fought before, and it was never, ever, simple simple for John. Using his ability to snipe would only matter if they are quick a distance from each other and Hal was unaware of his presence. The battle doesn't even have those stipulations.

Being the best flier in the Corps doesn't take away from the possibility that Hal could keep up with him. If his willpower exceeds his ring's capabilities, that's fine, but it doesn't take away Hal's ability to fight John. Not saying he can't win, but to say that it would be easy for him is absurd, in my opinion.

"

" @Mr Creesy: Yeah. You took it upon yourself to place John in a position where Hal would have a disadvantage and be unaware of his opponent. "

" @Mr Creesy: No one is playing dead. Your motive is clear. You're putting John in a position where Hal would be unaware of him and at a disadvantage. "

Your motive is clear. You're putting John in a position where Hal would be unaware of him and at a disadvantage. "

Great match... I think I would go with Hal with the majority of the time, but I can see John pulling a few wins.

The "More will power than the ring can handle" thing is pretty impressive I must say!

@Mr Creesy said:

""Well if I can "put" John there and no one is disagreeing that John can get there without me putting him there, then what's the problem? What I see in this battle are a lot of post saying Hal wins because "he has more feats" or that Hal is superior to John. I made a case for John. In seven pages of battling I have yet to read a legit description of how Hal beats John...indulge me. "

Kinda hard to indulge you when I'm sure as to who wins. I just think your reasoning of the battle could be better, and a bit more fair. That's all.

@Mr Creesy said:

 "

I wouldn't call it a motive, more like common sense. "

Or more like an attempt at orchestrating the battle in a way that only John can win. Nowhere near common sense.

" @Zoom:  John wasn't "amped up" in those scans I posted. John's will exceeds the power of his ring normally so imagine if John had hit the league with all the will power he had? Can Flash fly? I'm not sure if he can, but if he can't then Flash shouldn't be able to beat ANY GL.John's ring can rapid fire at light speed so that's how  Flash got defeated. Any GL could beat Flash in this same fashion.John wins this fight against Hal. If he wanted to he could snipe Hal from over three sectors away. No mess, no fuss. "

" @Static Shock: GL rebirth. "

" @entropy_aegis said:

" @Static Shock: GL rebirth. "

That was Hal's return, right? "

Kinda hard to indulge you when I'm sure as to who wins. I just think your reasoning of the battle could be better, and a bit more fair. That's all.

I can respect that.

Or more like an attempt at orchestrating the battle in a way that only John can win. Nowhere near common sense.

Orchestrating? More like envisioning John's battle plan. If Hal can't stop John before he gets into position, then John can win via assassination.  That's all I'm saying.

@Mr Creesy: If this is your interpretation of the fight, then I can't tell you any differently.

@entropy_aegis:
I may have to take a look at that, then. Thanks.

"

@Mr Creesy: If this is your interpretation of the fight, then I can't tell you any differently.

 

@entropy_aegis:
I may have to take a look at that, then. Thanks.

 

 

"

" @Zoom:  John wasn't "amped up" in those scans I posted. John's will exceeds the power of his ring normally so imagine if John had hit the league with all the will power he had? Can Flash fly? I'm not sure if he can, but if he can't then Flash shouldn't be able to beat ANY GL.John's ring can rapid fire at light speed so that's how  Flash got defeated. Any GL could beat Flash in this same fashion.John wins this fight against Hal. If he wanted to he could snipe Hal from over three sectors away. No mess, no fuss. "

He was clearly amped up.  He was under Parallax's control and he was beating up multiple characters that are more powerful than him at the same time.  Go down to the store and buy yourself a clue because it's freaking obvious.  That's what Parallax does.  He boosts lanterns and makes them go crazy.  And look!  There's John with Parallax boosted and going crazy.  This isn't hard.

" @Mr Creesy:
Your scenario requires one guy to be completly prepared while the other is a sitting duck,that's not how it works.

" @entropy_aegis said:

" @Mr Creesy:
Your scenario requires one guy to be completly prepared while the other is a sitting duck,that's not how it works.

If your going to tell it then make sure you tell it right. My "scenario" doesn't require that Hal be unprepared or be a sitting duck. All I know that if I was John, I would get to a safe spot and go for the easy kill. Like it or not, my scenario is logical. If the creator of this thread wanted a long drawn out battle then they should have specified some specific rules. Under the current rules, John can win via assassination.I already said that toe to toe either John or Hal could win. "

" @Zoom said:
" @Mr Creesy said:

" @Zoom:  John wasn't "amped up" in those scans I posted. John's will exceeds the power of his ring normally so imagine if John had hit the league with all the will power he had? Can Flash fly? I'm not sure if he can, but if he can't then Flash shouldn't be able to beat ANY GL.John's ring can rapid fire at light speed so that's how  Flash got defeated. Any GL could beat Flash in this same fashion.John wins this fight against Hal. If he wanted to he could snipe Hal from over three sectors away. No mess, no fuss. "

He was clearly amped up.  He was under Parallax's control and he was beating up multiple characters that are more powerful than him at the same time.  Go down to the store and buy yourself a clue because it's freaking obvious.  That's what Parallax does.  He boosts lanterns and makes them go crazy.  And look!  There's John with Parallax boosted and going crazy.  This isn't hard.

John did nothing in that scan that he normally couldn't do. His will exceeds the power of his ring so that blast that he gave the league (and your precious Flash) was not all that he had. So what your implying is that Parallax some how depowered John, cause he certainley didn't empower John or boost his stats because there is no proof of it. Only your word.

Flash can't fly but it doesn't matter.  Barry's beaten Hal before, too, which puts GLs at 0-4 against speedsters while not under the influence of Parallax.

PIS

" "

"You can agree with Static all you want. For all I know, Static may have mind control over you the same way Parallax did John. "

"@Zoom: John was possessed by Parallax? What issue was this? "

He wasn't......

Sinestro was using Parallax through the rings to manipulate Kilowog, Guy, and John........

John just so happened to be near the JLA, and took them down..........

Kilowog went after Ganthet and was trashed......

I forget what Guy did............

@Zoom said:

" @Mr Creesy said:

" @Zoom:  John wasn't "amped up" in those scans I posted. John's will exceeds the power of his ring normally so imagine if John had hit the league with all the will power he had? Can Flash fly? I'm not sure if he can, but if he can't then Flash shouldn't be able to beat ANY GL.John's ring can rapid fire at light speed so that's how  Flash got defeated. Any GL could beat Flash in this same fashion.John wins this fight against Hal. If he wanted to he could snipe Hal from over three sectors away. No mess, no fuss. "

He was clearly amped up.  He was under Parallax's control and he was beating up multiple characters that are more powerful than him at the same time.  Go down to the store and buy yourself a clue because it's freaking obvious.  That's what Parallax does.  He boosts lanterns and makes them go crazy.  And look!  There's John with Parallax boosted and going crazy.  This isn't hard.

Flash can't fly but it doesn't matter.  Barry's beaten Hal before, too, which puts GLs at 0-4 against speedsters while not under the influence of Parallax.

I agree with Static that you're modifying the scenario to help John.  It's entirely unfair to put John 3 sectors away, knowing where Hal is and looking to kill him while Hal is unaware of John's location.

"

When has Parallax amped GLs (plural) and make thme go crazy? You make it sound like this is a continuous happening, with many instances to support your claim...

When in fact Parallax was supposedly only the parasite in Hal's mind, with the majority of it's power coming from Hal's absorbtion of the energy in the Central Power Battery...

Parallax is seen trying to influence the Spectre because of his power, then leaves Spectre for Ganthet when he hears about how powerful Guardians are..

The only instance he appears to increase power on his own is when he influenced Kyle, and even then not by much because John blasted Parallax Kyle right in the face, with visible injury..

Not only that, but this is the first instance Parallax is seen influencing multiple people (because Guy Kilowog, and John are without fear, Kyle was unnafected because he feels fear), none of which showed amped stats, only altered mentality. Same thing as what's going on now with the War of the Green Lanterns, only it's the whole GLC being affected the exact same way (by the same writer) and none of them seem amped (else surely 12 "amped" GLS could take down Hal, without him escaping so easily right?)..

With the impurity restored the first time, GLs were susceptible to yellow temporarily, but had to "feel" the fear and overcome it to beat the weakness.

Like I said, if anything Parallax in this instance makes GL's weaker, because of the yellow impurity, though their morlas are removed, but there is no evidence of GLs being amped, only your opinion on what GLS should be capable of..

Somehow you think a speedster like Professor Zoom (who didn't have his time travel powers at the time, only speed, which GLs also have) can beat on Hal who can fly, basically simulate any ability any Flash has, go intangible, invisible, use telepathy (sounding a little like Martian Manhunter here :P), split the planet in half, and progrqam his ring to attack automatically, and many more abilities, and qualify that as a viable win and not PIS/WIS/CIS?..............

But on the same principle a GL with these abilities cant take down an unsuspecting JLA?................

I respectfully disagree with that perspective...................    

I'm not making this up, Velle.

" @Mr Creesy said:

" @entropy_aegis said:

" @Mr Creesy:
Your scenario requires one guy to be completly prepared while the other is a sitting duck,that's not how it works.

If your going to tell it then make sure you tell it right. My "scenario" doesn't require that Hal be unprepared or be a sitting duck. All I know that if I was John, I would get to a safe spot and go for the easy kill. Like it or not, my scenario is logical. If the creator of this thread wanted a long drawn out battle then they should have specified some specific rules. Under the current rules, John can win via assassination.I already said that toe to toe either John or Hal could win. "

Whatever,if i were John or Hal i would'nt fight i would try to talk.Unless specified the 2 start by facing each other directly,and Flash>>>>>>GL "

"Flash in not more powerful than Hal or any top tier lantern for that matter."

" @Mr Creesy said:

"Flash in not more powerful than Hal or any top tier lantern for that matter."

Flash beat the tar out of Hal when he was 17. "

Where's the rest of the fight?

" I'm not making this up, Velle.

Fact of the matter is that GLs never use time travel, never use invisibility, never use autofire rings or any of the things you're saying should allow them to beat on Justice Leaguers.  I don't know whether it's because that takes too much willpower or if (in the cause of autofire) some of those powers are just bluffs but we didn't even see John use that when he took down the League.  He just manhandled them with constructs, something he logically shouldn't be able to do unless he was amped. "