John Constantine/Zatanna vs Dr.Doom

Right okay I get it now the Doom fans gonna try to bring John down a level and say all his feats are not legit like his the writer. If you don't like Vertigo (which is more successful than current mainstream DC) than keep that to yourself. You talk to Allan Moore about it we will see how it goes. You say Vertigo has bad writing and it has bad writing? Go post that Allan Moores wall on Facebook. If you'd like I'll do if for you.

Also please prove how Doom can beat HOM. Amaze me.

. . .

you are not serious.

Use your head, how can he defeat a god that controls almost everything? i was explaning the Abstract concept of the fact you can't beat god, it has nothing to do with liking or disliking vertigo, john did an feat that should be impossible for almost anyone, including him.

that aside, why are you using the strawman fallacy on me? it isn't cool.

back to business, look at this scan for example.

the presence could simpy change reallity to make his threat pointless, or he could create a pocket dimension just for him, he had a million different options of owning john, he could grab reallity and absolutly brutalize john in any way possible, john's plan exists in the world, and because of it it's bound by his rules, which the presence can change at any time.

instead, the presence gets owned by john, something that should be impossible no matter what way you look at it.

why do you people refuse to listen to reason all for the sake of you favorite character? i really dont get it, john has a lot of PIS, CIS and plot shields working for him 24/7, and you hardly can say anything about it, since none of you guys actually gave me a logical answer.

also, doom posses infinity gauntlets from 2 different parts of the multiverse, he could go to those parts and force john out and then he will simply kill him, john has not plot shields in this fight, so he should die.

IG >>> HOM, unless you claim otherwise.

No Movies aren't allowed. Seriously. Just because it says Vertigo doesn't mean it's canon. It's simply not canon. At all.

Anyways

@darkraiden said:

@xxgin said:

@darkraiden said:

@xxgin said:

@darkraiden said:

@xxgin said:

@bigcimmerian said:

@xxgin said:

@darkraiden said:

@blazinghell:

1. I've never claimed to read John's comics. It's why I request feats. Otherwise you're just saying gibberish that isn't backed by anything as you did here.

2. That's Ultimate Doom IIRC, nothing to do with 616.

3. Flash is dumb and very vulnerable to Magic. Doom is a genius and has studied and defeated the strongest of magic. Also his suit regulates temperature and would thaw him out, if it even got past his defenses somehow. He's also shooting a blast, not running at him. Also in the scan I posted, Flash isn't going lightspeed+ He's moving at what appears to be mid mach speeds. Still enough to kill the supposed alternate version of John.

4. Faust has no feats on Doom's level. He's much weaker. Prove me wrong.

5. Zatanna was beaten up and blitzed by Deathstroke. She's not uttering a syllable before Doom blasts her.

Doom stomps. With ease. And he will always stomp John until people provide valid feats for him that can be used against Doom.

You have NOTHING AT ALL AGAINST JOHN!

Right, lets begin. 3 words that will fuck Doom up big time Books of Magic. I don't care how big Dooms library of magical spells are I am sure thats like a paragraph in the books.

House of secret..... so how does Doom get past this one? Bring in the IG? the last time I checked the reality gem controls reality not whats outside ...... Doom can have as much IG's as he wants but it's going to make zero difference. It's the reality gem not outside of reality gem.....

Third of all. Zatanna summons the the Spectre what's Doom going to do now? I am sure Dr Dooms magic is greater than the Spectre's.

Forth of all. With a hour of prep Constantine sells his soul to the devil..... right um whats Dooms going to do again? conquer all of hell and claim his soul? umm sorry must I bring in Lucifer? we all know Doom with a hour of prep>Lucifer! ANYONE WANT TO MAKE A LUCIFER VS DOOM THREAD?! ANYONE AT ALL FLATTER ME, PLEASE! riiight still gotta deal with the Spectre..... be back like in never.

John has taken the devil.. in other words the first being in hell. A being like Lucifer and he is even scared of Constantine.

Shall we proceed?

Alright so Doom>John in magic right? alright so does he>Johns apprentice? Timothy Hunter? because John can just walk up to him and bring him in anytime just to let you know..... like anytime. Wanna bet how about we make Doom vs Timothy Hunter in magic thread? again tell me if you want to be stubborn.

Timothy Hunter is to cheap. Alright, being a Doom fan I feel king of bad too..... how about Doom can't eat vegetable ever again in his life? So Doom better get his ass working on a special formula that allows humans to survive without veggie becuase Swamp Thing can poision any vegetable he eats with just a thought.... I don't know what he eats but if he eats and single plant cell in his life his dead..... thats not bringing Swamp Thing into combat because Vertigo Swamp THing will has Doom on the ground and thorny vines up his ass before he can think e=mc squared

Hour of prep right. This is if John wants to be mean. John travels to hell and tricks Mephisto into handing over the soul of his mom..... great. So now lucifer owns John's soul and John own's Doom's moms. What's Doom going to do? John says hand your soul over to me and swear to quit magic and destroy all those nerdy gadgets of yours.. also never build another machine in your life and I will allow you to live happily with your mother. So..... ya..... I htink I know what Doom would want because everything he ever do in his life was for his mother..... you read books of Doom right?

Fail, fail, FAIL. Ok where should I begin, what makes you think that Spectre will do as Zatanna says? What if he attacks her instead of Doom because he dared to annoy him? What is Costantine gaining with soul selling? And how exactly John defeated Lucifer, show me the scans please. And what is your proof that he's scared of John? Actually this thing about tricking Mephisto is pretty good, and very possible lol.

LOL! soul selling his soul to the devil means his soul is offifially Lucifers. So Doom can't touch him unless he well gets past Lucifer. Soooooo it is like a win win for both John and Lucifer (since Lucifer always wanted John's soul). John never defeated Lucifer he just simply conned him into reviving him and curing his lung cancer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u62cZD9Qi4I

You must watch the entire movie to fully understand.

http://i930.photobucket.com/albums/...firstfallen.jpg - The First of the Fallen, who is basically the Devil (different character from Lucifer Morningstar, though) admits that John Constantine is his most formidable adversary.

First of the Fallen is basically Lucifer in Hellblazer. His a very different character from morningstar and not as powerful but his still insanely OP.

That's movie John. Not applicable. And that's not Lucifer. Lucifer usually means Morningstar. That Lucifer? has no feats. Also...again, if Doom kills John, then his soul is still Lucifers not sure why that prevents death. Needs better explanation.

Where the fuck did you read movie Constantine is not allowed?!

Movies are generally not canon. And, well movie John was terribly weak. A human with a gun could beat him.

I am not the only one who uses those feats. Everyone does! Now you change the rules? We are using feats from both vertigo and New 52 why not movies? You can't just change the rules like that. Okay now I say no using 616 Doom happy?

Also a man with a gun can kill John from any version of John. Also if you actually watched the movie at the beginning it said Vertigo..... so yes it is allowed.

Also Dr Doom>Strange in magic?! LOL! Scans!

No Movies aren't allowed. Seriously. Just because it says Vertigo doesn't mean it's canon. It's simply not canon. At all.

Anyways

How is the movie not canon?

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/classic-dr-doom-vs-classic-dr-strange-rules-419574/

Right a few panels totally change everything.. also thats current Strange he sucks sh!t.

@xxgin said:

@darkraiden said:

@xxgin said:

@darkraiden said:

@xxgin said:

@darkraiden said:

@xxgin said:

@bigcimmerian said:

@xxgin said:

@darkraiden said:

@blazinghell:

1. I've never claimed to read John's comics. It's why I request feats. Otherwise you're just saying gibberish that isn't backed by anything as you did here.

2. That's Ultimate Doom IIRC, nothing to do with 616.

3. Flash is dumb and very vulnerable to Magic. Doom is a genius and has studied and defeated the strongest of magic. Also his suit regulates temperature and would thaw him out, if it even got past his defenses somehow. He's also shooting a blast, not running at him. Also in the scan I posted, Flash isn't going lightspeed+ He's moving at what appears to be mid mach speeds. Still enough to kill the supposed alternate version of John.

4. Faust has no feats on Doom's level. He's much weaker. Prove me wrong.

5. Zatanna was beaten up and blitzed by Deathstroke. She's not uttering a syllable before Doom blasts her.

Doom stomps. With ease. And he will always stomp John until people provide valid feats for him that can be used against Doom.

You have NOTHING AT ALL AGAINST JOHN!

Right, lets begin. 3 words that will fuck Doom up big time Books of Magic. I don't care how big Dooms library of magical spells are I am sure thats like a paragraph in the books.

House of secret..... so how does Doom get past this one? Bring in the IG? the last time I checked the reality gem controls reality not whats outside ...... Doom can have as much IG's as he wants but it's going to make zero difference. It's the reality gem not outside of reality gem.....

Third of all. Zatanna summons the the Spectre what's Doom going to do now? I am sure Dr Dooms magic is greater than the Spectre's.

Forth of all. With a hour of prep Constantine sells his soul to the devil..... right um whats Dooms going to do again? conquer all of hell and claim his soul? umm sorry must I bring in Lucifer? we all know Doom with a hour of prep>Lucifer! ANYONE WANT TO MAKE A LUCIFER VS DOOM THREAD?! ANYONE AT ALL FLATTER ME, PLEASE! riiight still gotta deal with the Spectre..... be back like in never.

John has taken the devil.. in other words the first being in hell. A being like Lucifer and he is even scared of Constantine.

Shall we proceed?

Alright so Doom>John in magic right? alright so does he>Johns apprentice? Timothy Hunter? because John can just walk up to him and bring him in anytime just to let you know..... like anytime. Wanna bet how about we make Doom vs Timothy Hunter in magic thread? again tell me if you want to be stubborn.

Timothy Hunter is to cheap. Alright, being a Doom fan I feel king of bad too..... how about Doom can't eat vegetable ever again in his life? So Doom better get his ass working on a special formula that allows humans to survive without veggie becuase Swamp Thing can poision any vegetable he eats with just a thought.... I don't know what he eats but if he eats and single plant cell in his life his dead..... thats not bringing Swamp Thing into combat because Vertigo Swamp THing will has Doom on the ground and thorny vines up his ass before he can think e=mc squared

Hour of prep right. This is if John wants to be mean. John travels to hell and tricks Mephisto into handing over the soul of his mom..... great. So now lucifer owns John's soul and John own's Doom's moms. What's Doom going to do? John says hand your soul over to me and swear to quit magic and destroy all those nerdy gadgets of yours.. also never build another machine in your life and I will allow you to live happily with your mother. So..... ya..... I htink I know what Doom would want because everything he ever do in his life was for his mother..... you read books of Doom right?

Fail, fail, FAIL. Ok where should I begin, what makes you think that Spectre will do as Zatanna says? What if he attacks her instead of Doom because he dared to annoy him? What is Costantine gaining with soul selling? And how exactly John defeated Lucifer, show me the scans please. And what is your proof that he's scared of John? Actually this thing about tricking Mephisto is pretty good, and very possible lol.

LOL! soul selling his soul to the devil means his soul is offifially Lucifers. So Doom can't touch him unless he well gets past Lucifer. Soooooo it is like a win win for both John and Lucifer (since Lucifer always wanted John's soul). John never defeated Lucifer he just simply conned him into reviving him and curing his lung cancer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u62cZD9Qi4I

You must watch the entire movie to fully understand.

http://i930.photobucket.com/albums/...firstfallen.jpg - The First of the Fallen, who is basically the Devil (different character from Lucifer Morningstar, though) admits that John Constantine is his most formidable adversary.

First of the Fallen is basically Lucifer in Hellblazer. His a very different character from morningstar and not as powerful but his still insanely OP.

That's movie John. Not applicable. And that's not Lucifer. Lucifer usually means Morningstar. That Lucifer? has no feats. Also...again, if Doom kills John, then his soul is still Lucifers not sure why that prevents death. Needs better explanation.

Where the fuck did you read movie Constantine is not allowed?!

Movies are generally not canon. And, well movie John was terribly weak. A human with a gun could beat him.

I am not the only one who uses those feats. Everyone does! Now you change the rules? We are using feats from both vertigo and New 52 why not movies? You can't just change the rules like that. Okay now I say no using 616 Doom happy?

Also a man with a gun can kill John from any version of John. Also if you actually watched the movie at the beginning it said Vertigo..... so yes it is allowed.

Also Dr Doom>Strange in magic?! LOL! Scans!

No Movies aren't allowed. Seriously. Just because it says Vertigo doesn't mean it's canon. It's simply not canon. At all.

Anyways

How is the movie not canon?

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/classic-dr-doom-vs-classic-dr-strange-rules-419574/

Right a few panels totally change everything.. also thats current Strange he sucks sh!t.

you realize that thread means nothing right?Current Doom is far stronger than Classic Doom in magic. I proved you wrong, get over it.

@xxgin: Yes Doom is >Phantom Stranger in magic. And with an hour of prep, his doombots (some Surfer and Thor level), a destroyer suit, his gadgets, time control, and more Doom is >Constantine's little group.

HOW IN THE BLOODY HELL CAN IG BEAT HOMS?

AHA!!! Now I understand why you like John so much. You're British!!!! BUSTED.

@nobody134 John "threatening" The Presence is a good feat not because John outsmarted an omnipotent. It's because The Presence has agreed that John would be more dangerous than the FotF, who is an extremely powerful cosmic entity.

The Presence indeed had a million options of dealing with John, and one of those was removing his taint-which he did. The point is, The Presence acknowledged the fact that John will be extremely dangerous for him if he were to rule hell.

About the IG vs HOM thing, the HOM exists out of reality, and therefore out of the IG's reach.

Besides, if John invites Doom to the HOM, he has absolute control over him. It might be slightly different than that but that's what I interpeted from reading Trinity War. It was stated by Frankenstein in (IIRC) JLD #22.

@darkraiden Just pointing out that Dream or Swamp Thing (dunno much about Timothy and PS) could solo a pack of Thors and Surfers.

Also, Strange never said that Doom is better than he is with magic. He pointed out that Doom knows some magic that Strange doesn't. But he has nothing to put him above Strange as far as feats are concerned (Classic Strange at least).

Zatanna can also say something like "tius ot doow" and turn Doom's suit to wood (she turned Hawkman's wings to lead in the same manner). Now what's Doom going to do? Why would he cast a silence spell of all things on Zatanna, if he knows nothing about her? True he has an hour of prep but the rules never said he has knowledge on Zatanna. Not to mention that saying something like "tius ot doow" takes about 1 second so... yeah.

@darkraiden: As long as there's a single form of plant life in the whole universe, Swamp Thing lives. And hiw will he blast Zatanna before she talks? I mean, saying three short words is, well... a quick process.

AHA!!! Now I understand why you like John so much. You're British!!!! BUSTED.

@nobody134 John "threatening" The Presence is a good feat not because John outsmarted an omnipotent. It's because The Presence has agreed that John would be more dangerous than the FotF, who is an extremely powerful cosmic entity.

The Presence indeed had a million options of dealing with John, and one of those was removing his taint-which he did. The point is, The Presence acknowledged the fact that John will be extremely dangerous for him if he were to rule hell.

About the IG vs HOM thing, the HOM exists out of reality, and therefore out of the IG's reach.

Besides, if John invites Doom to the HOM, he has absolute control over him. It might be slightly different than that but that's what I interpeted from reading Trinity War. It was stated by Frankenstein in (IIRC) JLD #22.

@darkraiden Just pointing out that Dream or Swamp Thing (dunno much about Timothy and PS) could solo a pack of Thors and Surfers.

Also, Strange never said that Doom is better than he is with magic. He pointed out that Doom knows some magic that Strange doesn't. But he has nothing to put him above Strange as far as feats are concerned (Classic Strange at least).

Zatanna can also say something like "tius ot doow" and turn Doom's suit to wood (she turned Hawkman's wings to lead in the same manner). Now what's Doom going to do? Why would he cast a silence spell of all things on Zatanna, if he knows nothing about her? True he has an hour of prep but the rules never said he has knowledge on Zatanna. Not to mention that saying something like "tius ot doow" takes about 1 second so... yeah.

The FoTF can reallity warp, i can hardly see john ever being on that level, the Fotf could lock him in a pocket dimension and do to him practically everything he wishes to do, john can't overpower a being with this kind of power that is written to its full potential, its impossible for him, even if john were to defeat the FoTF and challange TP, TP could simply put him down with a tought.

the IG was stated multiple times to control all planes of existence, not reallity, that would include the HOM as well, besides, he can crush him under the entire multiverse (The HOM exists between all of reallity, doom could simply crush him)

@xxgin

FoTF? other super reallity warpes? doesn't really matter.

2 reasones:

1. "balance"

2. DC would shut down the moment he does so, just the same as all of john's comics would be over if he was to die, all the DC villians have Plot Shields against TP.

FoTF can reallity warp and own john in any way that you can imagine, almost the the same as TP himself, how can john overpower a foe like that, who isn't holding back on him?

Yeah god is kindda stupid in DC.

there are multiple statments about its reach, and there is a fallacy in the consept of "out of reallity", if it physicaly existes then it means that it's real, thus, it exists in a reallity of some sort.

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/58/ig1hw6.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/461/ig4ix6.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/233/ig10fm3.jpg/

outside help? oh man you have no idea what you've gotten yourself into.

it has nothing to do with john's intelligence, beating a reallity warper this powerful (FoTF) is PIS.

Now, unless you got anything reasonable and new to say, i think that our conversation is pretty much over.

John was referring a situation where he dies and goes to hell, and takes over the place after half a millenia or less. I guess the rules are different.

I don't see john beating and overpowering the FoTF in his own realm, or in any realm really.

I understand why people like john, he is a badass, but most of his badass-ness comes from his massive plot shields, even you got to admit at least that much is true about him.

LOL! You don't get HoM at all do you?

It is outside of reality so anything inside realtiy don't work there.

John is its host so John can manipulate its laws to any degree he wants. There are only a few beings who has access to the HOM John is a few of them.

John literally dragged the Phantom Stranger from his own dimension just by sheer will.

Dr Doom can't come close to that. That was without prep too.

Who can Doom bring in that can take down John?

Timothy Hunter can easily>Doom in magic

John can easily>Doom in prep

Bringing in Swamp Thing, Zatanna, Dream is just overkill!

Also what are plot shields? If it has anything to do with John being impoertant to the plot than it is stupid.

LOL! You don't get HoM at all do you?

It is outside of reality so anything inside realtiy don't work there.

John is its host so John can manipulate its laws to any degree he wants. There are only a few beings who has access to the HOM John is a few of them.

John literally dragged the Phantom Stranger from his own dimension just by sheer will.

Dr Doom can't come close to that. That was without prep too.

Who can Doom bring in that can take down John?

Timothy Hunter can easily>Doom in magic

John can easily>Doom in prep

Bringing in Swamp Thing, Zatanna, Dream is just overkill!

Also what are plot shields? If it has anything to do with John being impoertant to the plot than it is stupid.

@nobody134: Well if The Presence acknowledged the fact that JonCon can overthrow the FotF as the ruler of hell... that's probably true. He also killed the FotF once, although he got help from a succubus.

His plot shields are literally one of his abilities. It's called wave-travelling something... it's a passive luck manipulating ability. Like Domino's, only instead of reflecting bad luck on others he reflects good luck on himself.

@xxgin Lol well I'm not British, I like John because he's John.

So answer me this: what's stopping the FotF from throwing john into a pocket dimension and be done with him.

or even if john were to try something, why couldn't he just manipulate time and stop that from ever happening.

@xxgin

But there are statements, that were not proven otherwise, of the IG controling all planes of existence, not reallity, existence.

the HOM exist -> IG can control it.

Well, Doom has political immunity, so he could force all of the super-heroes in the world to assist him, he could also travel through the infinite multiverse and bring up his counterparts in those universes, as well as superheroes from those universes, thus creating an infinite army of superheros, and himself, and nearly infinite amounts of demons, as well as all of limbo, and all of his weaponry and doombots.

but that's a moot point, no outside help is allowed unless stated otherwise.

What feats does this TH dude have in the first place?

Wow, your really don't get it.

defenition of plot shield (urban dictionary) :

Character shields (also known as plot armor or plot shield) are plot devices in films and television shows that prevent important characters from dying or being seriously injured at dramatically inconvenient moments. It often denotes a situation in which it strains credibility to believe that the character would survive.

so yeah, by defenition, it has everything to do with John being impoertant to the plot.

Being outside of reallity is some form of reallity, if you can exist there then it's real. but that's also a moot point, the IG can warp all planes of existance, including unreal ones.

So yeah basically all that you did was to Ignore most of my points and call me a doom fanboy, if that is the best that you can do for john then don't even bother writing a comment, i wont reply you.

consider yourself ignored.

So answer me this: what's stopping the FotF from throwing john into a pocket dimension and be done with him.

or even if john were to try something, why couldn't he just manipulate time and stop that from ever happening.

@xxgin

But there are statements, that were not proven otherwise, of the IG controling all planes of existence, not reallity, existence.

the HOM exist -> IG can control it.

Well, Doom has political immunity, so he could force all of the super-heroes in the world to assist him, he could also travel through the infinite multiverse and bring up his counterparts in those universes, as well as superheroes from those universes, thus creating an infinite army of superheros, and himself, and nearly infinite amounts of demons, as well as all of limbo, and all of his weaponry and doombots.

but that's a moot point, no outside help is allowed unless stated otherwise.

What feats does this TH dude have in the first place?

Wow, your really don't get it.

defenition of plot shield (urban dictionary) :

Character shields (also known as plot armor or plot shield) are plot devices in films and television shows that prevent important characters from dying or being seriously injured at dramatically inconvenient moments. It often denotes a situation in which it strains credibility to believe that the character would survive.

so yeah, by defenition, it has everything to do with John being impoertant to the plot.

Being outside of reallity is some form of reallity, if you can exist there then it's real. but that's also a moot point, the IG can warp all planes of existance, including unreal ones.

So yeah basically all that you did was to Ignore most of my points and call me a doom fanboy, if that is the best that you can do for john then don't even bother writing a comment, i wont reply you.

consider yourself ignored.

Lol! XD Being outside of reltiy is inside of relaity?! what are you god?! Lord Paradox?! a oximororn?!

nope just a Doom fan whose too desperate to find a way for Doom to win.

Saying being outside of realtiy is reality is like saying being more powerful than a omnipotent or the weather is burning cold.

Great you ignored me. Like I even eant to argue with you. You've come up with a argument so stupid that it is beyond crazy!

Unreal ones are not reality.. reality is what is real. Go to school more man.

Political immunity right. John has a friend who almost took over the role of Presence..

Anything else?

Also if you read ANY Hellblazer at ALL you wouldn't be asking me stupid questions on ow John defeated the FotF.

You also have not replied to anyof my arguments to so basically your talking to a mirror.

I already have been told that you are an unreasonable person when comes to John, you are the desperate one around here friend.

Your logic is weak, your entire argument is build around logical fallacies (Ad Hominem, Straw Man, Appeal to motive, Circular reasoning, No Limit Fallacy, Red Herring, just to name a few) and some of the worst reasoning i have ever seen.

now, lets see some defenitions

exist:

To have actual being; be real.

real:

Being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verifiable existence

the HOM exists, thus, it is located in some plane of reality, aside from making fun of me you ignored this point. (Logical fallacy BTW)

also, as stated before, outside help isn't allowed unless specified otherwise, so it's a moot point (Selective Attention fallacy, BTW)

"You also have not replied to anyof my arguments to so basically your talking to a mirror"

that's a lie, i replied to all of you arguments and so far i countered them all flawlessly.

i don't need to read HB to know that the FotF can not be beaten by a none reality warping human, it's impossible for him without plot shielding.

now, unless you are going to answer to all of my points please don't write down a comment.

Without john's HOM doom kills him with a single finger blast, if john was to use the HOM then doom would simply pull him out (IG controls all planes of existence) and blow him up, i don't see a way for john to win this.

@the_red_viper

it's a pocket dimension to which only FotF and other reallity warpers of his level can enter, in this world the FotF can Brutalize him till the end of the ends, also, he could altar space and time and make john, as a baby, his enemy, and claim his soul as an infant, it's a favorable scenario for him.

and even if it wasn't, it would still be involving plot shields in johns favor.

I already have been told that you are an unreasonable person when comes to John, you are the desperate one around here friend.

Your logic is weak, your entire argument is build around logical fallacies (Ad Hominem, Straw Man, Appeal to motive, Circular reasoning, No Limit Fallacy, Red Herring, just to name a few) and some of the worst reasoning i have ever seen.

now, lets see some defenitions

exist:

To have actual being; be real.

real:

Being or occurring in fact or actuality; having verifiable existence

the HOM exists, thus, it is located in some plane of reality, aside from making fun of me you ignored this point. (Logical fallacy BTW)

also, as stated before, outside help isn't allowed unless specified otherwise, so it's a moot point (Selective Attention fallacy, BTW)

"You also have not replied to anyof my arguments to so basically your talking to a mirror"

that's a lie, i replied to all of you arguments and so far i countered them all flawlessly.

i don't need to read HB to know that the FotF can not be beaten by a none reality warping human, it's impossible for him without plot shielding.

now, unless you are going to answer to all of my points please don't write down a comment.

Without john's HOM doom kills him with a single finger blast, if john was to use the HOM then doom would simply pull him out (IG controls all planes of existence) and blow him up, i don't see a way for john to win this.

@the_red_viper

it's a pocket dimension to which only FotF and other reallity warpers of his level can enter, in this world the FotF can Brutalize him till the end of the ends, also, he could altar space and time and make john, as a baby, his enemy, and claim his soul as an infant, it's a favorable scenario for him.

and even if it wasn't, it would still be involving plot shields in johns favor.

@nobody134: Is that even in character for Doom to freeze time?

Why wouldn't it be?

if he were to use it, then he would own the FF, and since they are the main good guys the writers can't let him do it (I cant recall him using magic on them)

So if it's not something he ever does, it isn't In Character.

That's one of the best things about John. There's nothing out of character for him, he does literally whatever he can think of to win. He once made a 4-headed demon argue with itself about soccer (2 of the heads were Chelsea fans and the other 2 were... Liverpool? Manchester United? Can't recall).

@nobody134: On that I'd have to disagree with you. In my opinion, Doom would actually want to show his foes his intellectual superiority and therefore he wouldn't use time-freezing spells and such since it's too easy, cheap, whatever you'd like to call it. He'd have to go out of character to use those tactics. One significant advantage that Joh holds over him is that he does whatever he needs to do to win. He's a cheap a$$hole and he isn't afraid to admit it. he practically has zero boundaries personality-wise. That's one of the many things I really like about him, and what makes him different than most characters. Doom's ego is, if you ask me, one of his biggest weaknesses.

Actually, while using his time-stopping abilities he tends to boast the most, he states that his knowledge about time (time travel, time stopping ect ect) is his greatest pride.

infact (quote), He's accepted as the highest authority on time-travel in the world (with perhaps the exception of Kang), with extensive knowledge on fractured time-lines, alternate realities, paradoxes, time loops and history. He's also aware of many events that are marked for his future.

using this ability will allow him to boast even more about his specialty, the fact that he doesn't use it doesn't have anything to do with his pride (his use of magic, however, does).

For the most part his ego is a plot device, same as etrigans song for example.

Actually, while using his time-stopping abilities he tends to boast the most, he states that his knowledge about time (time travel, time stopping ect ect) is his greatest pride.

infact (quote), He's accepted as the highest authority on time-travel in the world (with perhaps the exception of Kang), with extensive knowledge on fractured time-lines, alternate realities, paradoxes, time loops and history. He's also aware of many events that are marked for his future.

using this ability will allow him to boast even more about his specialty, the fact that he doesn't use it doesn't have anything to do with his pride (his use of magic, however, does).

For the most part his ego is a plot device, same as etrigans song for example.

@

Boast my bloody @$$ Timothy Hunter can un freeze time with ease. Also while inside HoM freezing time won't work on him.

BAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHAHAHA. Wait what?! Did you just say that Doom>Stranger? IN MAGIC?!?!

HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA

You have just lost every ounce of credibility that you possessed. Are you aware he is immortal? An essential to the universe meaning he can't be killed. A being that can erase you with a thought. Yet John pulled him through the dimensions. That is impressive. He (Stranger) is also pretty much in the top 5 of the most powerful comic characters of all time. Seriously. You have lost all drop of credibility you had going for you with that statement. Now I know you are just making it up as you go along. I mean a guy that resorts to bringing up speed blitz can't possibly know the character. As if Doom possessed meta human speed on the degree of a Superman or Flash. I am still laughing at you comparing doom's speed to the flash. God that was funny.

Again more lies. There is no way in hell that Doom can concoct something that could take down Constantine's "little group". Especially when they are comprised of some of the most powerful characters in comics. (Swampy, Stranger, Xana, Benett, Amethyst, Chanti.) Just to name a few who could pretty much stomp Doom on their own in record time.

1. Speed blitz doesn't mean lightspeed. Slade speedblitzed Zatanna just fine and Doom has blitzed faster people/just as fast people as Slade.

2. Doom can't be teleported against his will. The Sorcerer Supreme tried it. Doom redirected it to where HE wanted to go.

3. Being essential and immortal does not mean stronger. Doom can also erase you with a thought and has stripped magical beings of their powers several times.

4. He concocted plans to take over Marvel Earth a handful of times, the Beyonder, Galactus 2 times, and outsmart Mephisto. Yeah he can take down this group.

5. Sorcerer Supreme Doom (another universe) overpowered Dormammu with just magic. It's not farfetched that he can overpower Phantom Stranger with magic or at least can defeat him.

This gets more ridiculous by the second.

1. Oh yeaaa? Where are the scans, funny man?

I know it doesn't mean lightspeed. You are the one who is trying to make Doom's speed comparable to the flash. Laughable really. Again, John has stopped speed blitzes from beings 100 times faster than Doom and 100 times more powerful. He also stopped the flash or did you just choose to ignore that scanned feat for your own convenience? And don't come to me and say "yea well Flash is dumb hur hur hur" which is complete garbage because Flash has gone up against Grodd whose intellect eclipses Doom's. The flash would turn Doom into road kill.

2. Oh yeaaa? Where are the scans, funny man?

I'd loooooove to see you fail miserably to prove how Doom can best someone that can summon the host of the angels.

3. Yes it does. Doom has never erased anyone with a thought what the hell are you talking about?

John has stripped beings off their powers too. I don't see where you are going with this.

4. AND THEY HAVE ALL FAIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIILED. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS PLANS HAS FAIIILED. Guess how many of John's plans have failed? ZEROOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

How do you know he can take down this group when you have no idea of the characters that I speak of?

Each of them would individually stomp Doom.

Did you even notice how I mentioned several godly entities in that small bracket because honestly I could name MORE.

Again, where are those scans of him outsmarting Mephisto?

5. HAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. It is the most far fetched thing in history. You are a funny guy. The stranger is leagues above the magical users in comics. He goes beyond the source and the dimensions.

Sorry, man. You lost all ounce of credibility when you typed in: Doom>Phantom Stranger in magic.

Now I know you are arguing for the mere sake of wanting to be right.

John solos.

Zatanna solos.

> No outside help allowed unless stated otherwise.

> IG

@the_red_viper

Whenever etrigan hears a specific song he turns back to his human form, it acts as a limiter.

http://s118.photobucket.com/user/bigbran1/media/comic/Demonv2-17-12.jpg.html

personality may act as a plot devise, It depends.

if the character is otherwise flawless or near perfect (such as superman or MM (who doesn't like using his full TP powers)) then the personality flaw comes to balance it, it still counts in an in-character fight, his time-freeze gadget thingy is one of the most likely weapons for doom to use if it wasn't for plot shield.

that aside, in a prep fight, it won't save him, aside from his IG he has no way of beating the HOM, this much is true, however, with the IG he will pull of a victory (at worst a stalemate, john at the very least won't be able to pull him in as long as he's got the IG, on this much you will simply have to agree.)

So far as I have seen the only thing Doom has got going for him is his ability to use time. Which makes little to no sense seeing as he never uses that ability with enough frequency to where we can state it as a regularity even if you think that it is ignored by writers for the sake of the plot because frankly I can name many instances where John's abilities have been downplayed for the sake of the plot. Even if he can control time, John cannot be controlled by time. He exists in the house which resides outside of time.

Doom is the sorcery supreme in some other universe. That has nothing to do with this battle. Why did you bring that up in the first place? to raise the shock value? I am pretty sure Tim Hunter>Dormannu.

Doom can't speed blitze a being who made a fool of Flash.

I am pretty sure Lucifer is far more cunning than Mephisto..

Doom has displaed no magic feats that puts him on the same level as Strnage let along Tim or Dream.

Also you know nothing of Dream. You can't defeat him his a concept.. He exists in Dooms brain and can manipulate Dooms thoughts to a infinite degree.

Orrr.. yes outisde help unless stated otherwise. Asking friends for help is one of Constantines best resorts you can't take that away. It's like taking away Doom's magic.