#1 Edited by WillPayton (9358 posts) - - Show Bio

JLA: Aquaman, Cyborg, Hal Jordan, Superman, Wonder Woman

vs

JSA: Alan Scott, Atom Smasher, Hawkman, Jay Garrick, Power Girl

Random encounter, pre-52, everyone in-character, standard equipment.

Who wins, and how?

#2 Posted by joeagentofhand1 (4362 posts) - - Show Bio

The JSA

#3 Edited by FrozenPhoenix (1722 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyborg MVP

... lol jokes.

#4 Posted by charlieboy (7159 posts) - - Show Bio

Alan Scott is going to be the man to beat. Leaning towards the JSA.

#5 Edited by Pokeysteve (8253 posts) - - Show Bio

Depends on Scott's power levels but I'd say JLA.

Wonder Woman takes Powergirl and helps Hal or Clark since I see her finishing her pair up first.

Superman takes Jay

Aquaman holds Atom

Lanterns occupy each other

Cyborg deals with Hawkman and it doesn't really matter who wins there

#6 Posted by FrozenPhoenix (1722 posts) - - Show Bio
#7 Edited by Pokeysteve (8253 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozenphoenix said:

@pokeysteve: Explain how cyborg takes Hawkman?

Never said he takes him. He just has to distract him. Neither of those two matter here.

#8 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (12027 posts) - - Show Bio

I believe the JLA wins on account of Aquaman mind-raping everyone besides Alan and maybe Jay (actually, Jay doesn't seem to be fast enough to escape mind control or at least I haven't seen him do it) which I think is something Arthur would do in character cus he don't play. Leaving Alan, who I think could solo this JLA roster when out of character but not in character. Hal could give a decent fight and lose alone, but Alan isn't going to beat Wonder Woman, Superman, Cyborg, Aquaman, and Hal in character .....

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#9 Posted by WillPayton (9358 posts) - - Show Bio

I believe the JLA wins on account of Aquaman mind-raping everyone besides Alan and maybe Jay (actually, Jay doesn't seem to be fast enough to escape mind control or at least I haven't seen him do it) which I think is something Arthur would do in character cus he don't play. Leaving Alan, who I think could solo this JLA roster when out of character but not in character. Hal could give a decent fight and lose alone, but Alan isn't going to beat Wonder Woman, Superman, Cyborg, Aquaman, and Hal in character .....

Problem with Aquaman taking out most of the JSA with TP is that it wont happen. It's not an instant win, instant KO. He'll try it and Alan will see what's happening and focus a blast on him... which is the end of Aquaman in this fight.

#10 Posted by Mattersuit (4270 posts) - - Show Bio

Pre-52, Alan's the man to beat.

I think he showed that he can hack other GL rings.

#11 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (12027 posts) - - Show Bio

Problem with Aquaman taking out most of the JSA with TP is that it wont happen. It's not an instant win, instant KO. He'll try it and Alan will see what's happening and focus a blast on him... which is the end of Aquaman in this fight.

It will happen, considering the fact that Aquaman isn't completely alone here, unless Alan is just going to side step Superman, Wonder Woman, and Green Lantern like they aren't there. Since they are and Alan would be more than occupied, his team would be out cold before he could intervene ...

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#12 Edited by WillPayton (9358 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton said:

Problem with Aquaman taking out most of the JSA with TP is that it wont happen. It's not an instant win, instant KO. He'll try it and Alan will see what's happening and focus a blast on him... which is the end of Aquaman in this fight.

It will happen, considering the fact that Aquaman isn't completely alone here, unless Alan is just going to side step Superman, Wonder Woman, and Green Lantern like they aren't there. Since they are and Alan would be more than occupied, his team would be out cold before he could intervene ...

First, I havent actually seen any evidence that Aquaman can TP attack more than 1 opponent at a time.

But, regardless of that, Alan wont stand around watching his whole team get disabled by TP and ignore the guy doing it. He WILL take out Aquaman quickly with a single blast, unless he decides to really step it up and do something like slow down time, or one of his other many powers.

As far as opposition from Superman, WW, or GL... Alan can make himself invisible and intangible. Or he can teleport them away temporarily. Or he can use his own TP powers, which IIRC he does have some.

Alan is not the guy to mess around with.

#13 Edited by beatboks1 (7158 posts) - - Show Bio

Alan and Jay can give the JLA hell alone.

Alan gives all the JSA TP shielding ( though Jay wont need it like all flashes his brain works at a different rate than normal)

Jay speed steals from Superman and Wonder Woman (Jay has stolen Superman's speed before and BA's)

PG then takes WW easily and assists Jay with Supes ( and he won't take both especially when moving likes he's in molasses).

Alan should easily take out Hal. Silver age Hal who was a lot more powerful lost to SA Alan who was a LOT less powerful several times. On of those was also before Hal lost to Krona and a disembodied Alan defeated him easily here. He defeated Kyle here. Finally there is the time that Abin Sur used Alan's ring to defeat an opponent who had taken his ring and tnose of several other green lanterns in GLCorps Quarterly # 8. Pre 52 Alan is a lot more powerful than when he was Just Green lantern and Just green Lantern has proven many times to be superior to "normal" GL's.

In less than a couple of minutes Aquaman and Cyborg are going to be facing the entire JSA line up here and wont stand a chance.

Superman takes Jay

You mean like THIS. Worked wee for him here didn't it. I'd expect the same outcome

Aquaman holds Atom

Now that's a laugh. How does he HOLD this.

Courtesy of AS's ability to alter his molecular density and become intangible No one's "HOLDING" him unless he wants them too. Sorry, couldn't resist the pun.

Besides which since they'll be protected from TP by Alan ( and that's about the ONLY thing Arthur has over him) I'll take the guy who has fought evenly with a version of Solomon Grundy that could one shot Fury ( E-2 Wonder Woman's daughter), E-2 Wonder Woman herself, and had a few smack downs with Black Adam where he has at least sent him flying with punches or or pinned him.

Lanterns occupy each other

AHHH absolutely NOT. First pre Nu 52 Alan is a LOT more than a Lantern. Second even when he was he's demostrated far more versatility with his power than Hal EVER has. In any case Since his Sentinel and alter Starheart upgrades he has abilities well beyond those of Hal. Things like Time manipulation, plus the fact that he hasn't a physical body to harm.Not to mention an in character Alan has shown.

  1. The power to seal multiversal rifts.
  2. The power to defeat Mordru ( a character who has defeated Nabu, and in a weakened state and AMPED Shazam.
  3. the power to defeat Ultra when he possessed the power of the 5th dimensional Djinn Ylzkz

Hal is seriously out of his league (pun intended)

I believe the JLA wins on account of Aquaman mind-raping everyone besides Alan and maybe Jay (actually, Jay doesn't seem to be fast enough to escape mind control or at least I haven't seen him do it) which I think is something Arthur would do in character cus he don't play. Leaving Alan, who I think could solo this JLA roster when out of character but not in character. Hal could give a decent fight and lose alone, but Alan isn't going to beat Wonder Woman, Superman, Cyborg, Aquaman, and Hal in character .....

REALLY

IN Justice Society of America 30 Jay moved SO fast that even Blue Moon who has near Light speed reactions only saw a blur. Just how fast does he have to be???

unless Alan is just going to side step Superman, Wonder Woman, and Green Lantern like they aren't there.

Actually if he want's to, side stepping wont be a problem.

Since he can easily make it that what is a 1000 years for them is only a few minutes for him he could side step each of them a few hundred times. Or with Intangibility not even be touched or a countless other ways. Say for example with matter manipulation turn the air near Superman to Kryptonite, BFR them to another realm of existence.

And most of these are only Golden Age Alan ( who's even lower than SA)

#14 Posted by Pokeysteve (8253 posts) - - Show Bio

@beatboks1:

Jay speed steals from Superman and Wonder Woman (Jay has stolen Superman's speed before and BA's)

She's been able to react to a speed blitzing Superman from point blank.

You mean like THIS. Worked wee for him here didn't it. I'd expect the same outcome

Pretty sure they weren't actually fighting here. The speed steal debate is always used. If it's so effective, how come he and Wally don't do it to stop everything? Despero. Doomsday. Zoom.

Courtesy of AS's ability to alter his molecular density and become intangible No one's "HOLDING" him unless he wants them too. Sorry, couldn't resist the pun.

Besides which since they'll be protected from TP by Alan ( and that's about the ONLY thing Arthur has over him) I'll take the guy who has fought evenly with a version of Solomon Grundy that could one shot Fury ( E-2 Wonder Woman's daughter), E-2 Wonder Woman herself, and had a few smack downs with Black Adam where he has at least sent him flying with punches or or pinned him.

Doesn't need to beat him. Just keep him occupied.

AHHH absolutely NOT. First pre Nu 52 Alan is a LOT more than a Lantern. Second even when he was he's demostrated far more versatility with his power than Hal EVER has. In any case Since his Sentinel and alter Starheart upgrades he has abilities well beyond those of Hal. Things like Time manipulation, plus the fact that he hasn't a physical body to harm.Not to mention an in character Alan has shown.

  1. The power to seal multiversal rifts.
  2. The power to defeat Mordru ( a character who has defeated Nabu, and in a weakened state and AMPED Shazam.
  3. the power to defeat Ultra when he possessed the power of the 5th dimensional Djinn Ylzkz

As I said in my first post here, "depending on Scott's power level". He has shown those things above but I doubt they are within his day to day abilities.

#15 Posted by dondave (36562 posts) - - Show Bio

JSA

#16 Posted by beatboks1 (7158 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve:

How does one react when their speed is gone?

Jay has speed stolen more than once speed blitzed Black Adam and othFlagons that level many times and has shown he can speed steal without touching (specifically BA). Speed steal doesn't work on Zoom because he doesn't use speed.

And how exactly does Arthur keep someone "occupied" who's shown they can mix it with far superior opponents like WW, BA etc??

Those are Alan's "everyday" power levels and he's already as stated beaten Hal a few times when his level was lower. Hell the last lot of scans are all Golden Age and he was above Hal then which is well below modern

#17 Posted by WillPayton (9358 posts) - - Show Bio

I think the JSA can win this because of Alan and Jay.

I'll say JSA wins 6/10... maybe more, but I dont want to underestimate the JLA team.

#18 Posted by WillPayton (9358 posts) - - Show Bio

bump!

#19 Posted by YoungSpawn (21 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton: Even though they are pretty much the same the JLA have to my opinion have a better team ethnic and can do alot more as a team. Plus there powers out way that of any member of the JSA.

#20 Posted by WillPayton (9358 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton: Even though they are pretty much the same the JLA have to my opinion have a better team ethnic and can do alot more as a team. Plus there powers out way that of any member of the JSA.

You mean their combined powers outweigh those of the JSA, or that individually they are more powerful than the JSA members?

I think, either way, that's very debatable.

#21 Posted by beatboks1 (7158 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton: Even though they are pretty much the same the JLA have to my opinion have a better team "ethnic" and can do alot more as a team. Plus there powers out way that of any member of the JSA.

I'm going to assume by the underlined you mean "ethic" in which case your completely wrong. The JSA are the moral pillar or compass of the DCU. Their guiding principles and moral stance is far stronger than any other team. the abide by older ideals. Also they are a LOT more a family than just a team. As such they have MUCH better team work than the JLA. Also when it comes to overall power of a team the JSA are miles above any other team. You could pick any line up of the JSA since it started and power wise it could match or defeat any line up of the JLA with a few members of another era thrown in. Take the top ten most powerful members of the JSA ever and they could defeat Every member who's ever been in the JLA. Hell the top five most powerful JSAers could defeat most JLA lines ups solo.

Those top 20 in order would be

  1. Spectre (founding member)
  2. Doctor Fate/ Kent Nelson (founding member)
  3. Johnny ( or Jakeem) Thunder / Thunderbolt ( first inductee after Flash left original roster)
  4. Alan Scot (founding member)
  5. Hourman 1 million
  6. Dr Fate Hector Hall
  7. Miss America
  8. Obsidian
  9. Dr fate Kent V Nelson
  10. Black Adam

Now baring in mind that the JSA also includes

  • Superman Kal-l ( who's stronger but not as much endurance as Kal-el
  • Captain Marvel
  • E-2 Wonder Woman ( the version that could pull the moon out of orbit)
  • Starman ( as well as Star Girl and Star Spangled kid - all wielders of cosmic power)
  • Jay Garrick

And a few others who are easily on a par with the most powerful JLAers.

You mean their combined powers outweigh those of the JSA, or that individually they are more powerful than the JSA members?

I think, either way, that's very debatable.

There is no way in hell anyone can argue that the JLA is more powerful than the JSA, not "debatable" at all.

#22 Edited by WillPayton (9358 posts) - - Show Bio

Depending on the line ups I think it's debatable because the JLA has had people like Wally West who can solo large parts of any JSA team. Notice I didnt put him in this JLA team? They've also had folks like Martian Manhunter, Captain Atom, several top Lanterns, Firestorm, Dr Fate and Zatanna, 3 Kryptonians, Captain Marvel... and not to mention Wonder Woman and Batman w/ prep is also a huge asset.

#23 Posted by beatboks1 (7158 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton: the thing is everyone you mentioned has a JSAer to match except MMH power for power. the JSA has also had two versions of Superman one of whom is more powerful across the voard and one stronger but less stamina. Powergirl, Cap Marvel, Black Adam. The JSA has had three versions of Dr Fate and all were more powerful than the two who were JLAers. JSA's WW wasnbastly more powerful plus thei've had Hipolita, and Fury. Miss America can actually do everthing that Capt Atom and Firestorm can do and a whole lot more. So could "classic Fate" who back then was like a merger of Superman captain Atom andf Classic Strange. Zattanna is matched by Dr Occult rasily ( and she's no where near Fate, J Thunder, or Spectre level) . that's the kicker, JLA have ni ine to match Spectre or J thunder anywhere in their line up history.

#24 Edited by beatboks1 (7158 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton: Thought I'd match COMPLETE line ups across the board. Even though the JLA has a LOT more members over time, when you pick a line up with similar power bases it CLEARLY leans toward the JSA.

Spectre

> Could beat the two combined and probably the next bracket

Phantom Stranger

Jason Blood (Etrigan)

Jakeem/ Johnny Thunder

>Could beat the two combined and probably the bracket above

Zatanna

Manitou Raven

Bloodwynd

Doctor Fate x 3 Versions

> Better versions

Doctor Fate x2 Versions

Obsidian

=

Obsidian

Anna Fortune

=

Silver Sorceress

Blue Devil

=

Blue Devil

Superman (Earth-22 version)

>

Superman

Superman (Earth-2 version)

>

Supergirl

Lance / Magog

<

Orion

Citizen Steel

?

Donna Troy

Black Adam

>

Mon-El

Wonder Woman (Earth-2 version)

>

Wonder Woman

Wonder Woman Hippolyta

=

Hippolyta

Power Girl

=

Power Girl

Captain Marvel

=

Captain Marvel

Flash

< / > experienced

Flash

Liberty Belle/Jesse Quick

=

Jesse Quick

Damage

=

Starfire

Starman

>

Starman

Star-Spangled Kid / Stargirl

=

Ray

Lightning

>

Black Lightning

Starman

</=

Lightray

Star-Spangled Kid / Stargirl

>

Doctor Light

Star-Spangled Kid

>

Firehawk

Miss America

>

Captain Atom

Wildcat

</=

General Glory

Green Lantern Alan Scot

>

Jade

Green Lantern Alan Scot

>

Green Lantern X 4 versions

Starman Thom Kallor

?

Triumph

Miss America

>

Firestorm

King Chimera

=

Faith

Starman Thom Kallor

?

Triumph

Amazing Man

</=

Metamorpho

Amazing Man

=

Amazing Man

Amazing Man

>

Elongated Man

Amazing Man

>

Plastic Man

Wildcat / Tomcat

<

Animal Man

Wildcat / Tomcat

<

Vixen

Atom

=

Big Barda

Atom Smasher

=

Congorilla

Atom Smasher

=

Nuklon

Hourman

=

Steel

Sand / Sandman

<

Geo-Force

Hawkman

=

Hawkgirl

Hawkman

=

Black Condor

Hawkgirl

=

Hawkman

Liberty Belle

>

Vibe

Mister Terrific

border line call

Mister Miracle

Roxy

<

Cyborg

Manhunter

</=

Booster Gold

Stripes

>

Rocket Red 4

Stipes

=

Steel

Hourman

=

Hourman

Manhunter

Aztek

Cyclone Or Red Tornado

=

Red Tornado

Robin (Earth-2 version)

=

Nightwing / Batman

Red Beetle

<

Blue Beetle

Batman (Earth-2 version)

<

Batman

Mister America

</=

Agent Liberty

Darknight

<

Red Arrow

Black Canary

=

Black Canary

Sandman Wesley Dodds

=

Green Arrow

Huntress (Earth-2 version)

>

Huntress

Doctor Mid-Nite

<

Crimson Fox

Judomaster

>

Green Arrow

Wildcat

>

Guardian

Only JLAer for whom there is no Very close match power for power

Clearly it wouldn’t be too hard to find a close match for each in a battle

Fire

Ice

Gypsy

Zauriel

As I see it in an even pick of numbers trying to pcik similar line ups JSA would win almost across the board

Blue Jay

Atom

Super-Chief

L-Ron/Despero

Aquaman

Martian Manhunter

Maxima

You'll see I've picked some JSAers a few times (like Amazing man and miss America) because they have powersets that let them match multiple roles.

When you consider the fact that Spectre could solo half the greatest powerhouses. So could J Thunder. Classic Dr Fate also ( and whilst Dr fate was on both teams only one had the classic version). The most powerful Superman on the JSA is more powerful than the JLA one and that flows down the line ( most powerful marvel family member most powerful Amazon etc). MIss America isn't limited by organic matter the way Ronnie Raymond was and can completely reform from being destroyed. Alan could also solo a large chunk of the JLA and Could solo a few of the lanterns or his Daughter and a Lantern or 2. Those few at the bottom without a close match would still be easy to pick a line up to have close to even power and MOST of the JSA have a LOT more experience in the game, plus a LOT better team work being more like a family than a team.

#25 Posted by WillPayton (9358 posts) - - Show Bio

bump

#26 Posted by theDCkid (874 posts) - - Show Bio

I believe the JLA would win this.

#27 Posted by lol (4616 posts) - - Show Bio

JSA