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#101 Edited by HeraldofGanthet (3774 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton:

Even if there are multiple scenarios where this can happen, I still think it's highly unlikely. The scenario that you're putting forward is that 1) Aquaman figures out that Jean is a telepath, 2) he determines that she's so threatening that they all have to take her down first, 3) he convinces the rest to ignore the entire team and just focus on her, and 4) they can successfully attack and get through her shields and mental defenses even while being attacked themselves.

All that is very unlikely and I've never seen that go down in a comic book team v team fight. What normally happens is the teams fight each other so that everyone is occupied. If anyone is ignored then that person can double-team another on the op team, so obviously here w/ 5 v 5 they'll all be busy initially with 1 on 1s.

No, no, no you misunderstand what I was saying. I'll try again: My premise is that the members of the JLA "B"-Team are very familiar with each other and know their teammates both offensive as well as their defensive capabilities. That said, 3 possibilities in my example present themselves:

  1. Aquaman figures out Jean and sends a TP signal to Steel who proceeds in the manner I outlined earlier. If he doesn't engage her in TP combat himself, which isn't entirely out of the question.
  2. Guy Gardner's Ring figures out her powers and he communicates the same thing to Steel, if he doesn't go after her himself. And/or,
  3. Steel's sensors picks up on her potential power output/threat level independent of any analysis from his teammates and he goes ape sh*t on her like he did to Triumph in the aforementioned manner.

Just a few possibilities, but never did I intend to say that all 5 members of the JLA squad would be dogpiling on Jean. That's not what I meant. Hopefully I've cleared that up here.

#102 Posted by charlieboy (7096 posts) - - Show Bio
#103 Posted by WillPayton (9823 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton:

No, no, no you misunderstand what I was saying. I'll try again: My premise is that the members of the JLA "B"-Team are very familiar with each other and know their teammates both offensive as well as their defensive capabilities. That said, 3 possibilities in my example present themselves:

  1. Aquaman figures out Jean and sends a TP signal to Steel who proceeds in the manner I outlined earlier. If he doesn't engage her in TP combat himself, which isn't entirely out of the question.
  2. Guy Gardner's Ring figures out her powers and he communicates the same thing to Steel, if he doesn't go after her himself. And/or,
  3. Steel's sensors picks up on her potential power output/threat level independent of any analysis from his teammates and he goes ape sh*t on her like he did to Triumph in the aforementioned manner.

Just a few possibilities, but never did I intend to say that all 5 members of the JLA squad would be dogpiling on Jean. That's not what I meant. Hopefully I've cleared that up here.

Yes, I understand. I still think it's not a likely outcome. Even if Steel decides he's going to try to take her out, then what?

1. Steel has to get through her shields and TK

2. Steel now makes himself vulnerable to being blind-sided by one of the X-Men team that he has decided to ignore in order to attack Jean.

I think Jean can put up her shields to defend against Steel while mind-attacking Guy (one possibility). So I think my objection to your argument holds... the most likely scenario is that each of team 1 will be engaged with a member of team 2, until someone is dispatched and a double-team can happen.

#104 Posted by WillPayton (9823 posts) - - Show Bio
#105 Posted by charlieboy (7096 posts) - - Show Bio
#106 Posted by HeraldofGanthet (3774 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton:

1. Steel has to get through her shields and TK

2. Steel now makes himself vulnerable to being blind-sided by one of the X-Men team that he has decided to ignore in order to attack Jean.

I think Jean can put up her shields to defend against Steel while mind-attacking Guy (one possibility). So I think my objection to your argument holds... the most likely scenario is that each of team 1 will be engaged with a member of team 2, until someone is dispatched and a double-team can happen.

I think I understand your objection(s) now. Let me try to address them:

  1. I'll concede that she's got good shields. That said, even shielded, her ears still work. I mean, she's not suddenly stricken with deafness upon telekinetically shielding herself from danger. @matchesmalone21 has scans showing (among other things) the power of Steel's sonic weapons. I'll concede that her shields may even block the concussive force from the sonic blast, but a telepath/telekinetic's powers are all about concentration on a target and/or objective. Tens or hundreds of thousands of decibels raining down on you from out of nowhere would do a number on her ability to concentrate/maintain shields. Then she's vulnerable to all manner of things. Even collateral debris that would probably be flying around in a battle like this. She could be knocked out cold by any of it. Not to mention Steel's Hammer landing near her could shatter her bones or cause internal organ damage due to the indirect impact force shockwave it would generate on contact with the ground
  2. Steel doesn't normally get tunnel vision. As such, his Kinetic Hammer alone has multiple target tracking capabilities. Not to mention the Armor's inertial impact dampeners and shielding in addition to his other energy weapons and such that allow him multiple attack options as well as multiple angles to attack from. These safeguards would/should discourage a double and or triple-team. Not to mention just how freaking strong Steel is....
  3. I too agree that people would pair off until the bodies started dropping. And either of the methods of discovery on Jean are a (in my opinion) rational reason for Steel to seek to wipe her out of the equation as soon as possible before she gets to cut loose. He's faced TP/TK users who had cruel intentions before. He might take the opportunity to put her out of commission as something personal. IMO.
#107 Posted by charlieboy (7096 posts) - - Show Bio

I think this comes down to Guy vs. Jean. I am leaning towards Jean ftw.

#108 Edited by Fallschirmjager (18967 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm going to keep saying it until it changes - Aquaman is not a B-Teamer. He never has been and never will. Just because you're not in the DC Trinity doesn't make you a B-teamer.

That being said like usual most people don't know how wickedly OP his pre-52 Tridant and most especially Water Hand are.

here's how I see this

Steel>Bishop (over with moderate difficulty)

Aquaman=Iceman (at best Iceman is going to be doing nothing as Aquaman's water hand gives him total control over Iceman - and Aquaman can probably do this and counter-TP Jean too. but i won't go there because I don't need to)

Guy > Cyclops (no brainier, this is over quick)

Red Tornado=Storm (she's not putting down RT by herself)

Hawkman < Jean (Hawkman's awesome durability makes this a tough one, but I think Jean could take him, she's too flexible)

-----

Guy + Red Tornado > Storm

Steel < Jean (this is another tough battle for Jean, but she probably takes steel)

Aquaman=Iceman (again, Iceman is going to do nothing if Aquaman has his Water Hand. All that is up for debate is how much concentration Aquaman is going to need and what else he can do. Giving Iceman the benefit of the doubt and saying he will hold his attention)

---

Guy + Red Tornado > Jean. (by now she's had to beat 2 extremely durable guys, she ain't winning this one)

Aquaman= Iceman

---

Guy + RT+ Aquaman > Iceman

#109 Edited by WillPayton (9823 posts) - - Show Bio

That being said like usual most people don't know how wickedly OP his pre-52 Tridant and most especially Water Hand are.

He doesnt have the trident in this fight. He's just as pictured. No extra equipment.

#110 Posted by MarlboroMan (1801 posts) - - Show Bio
#111 Posted by Fallschirmjager (18967 posts) - - Show Bio
#112 Posted by patrat18 (10872 posts) - - Show Bio

Jl.

#113 Edited by Cable_Extreme (9773 posts) - - Show Bio

Iceman is being underestimated here.

#114 Posted by HeraldofGanthet (3774 posts) - - Show Bio

@cable_extreme: Iceman is being underestimated here.

No, he's a beast. I can't speak for others, but I know that I've gone out of my way to give him his props in this thread. That said, his powers seem to be two-fold: Psionic "jumping" into different moisture forms to manipulate them physically, and once inside said moisture form, creating various ice formations at will. Very flexible. Very powerful. It's just that in this fight, Iceman is up against an opponent(s) that he rarely ever faces: Someone who can shut down BOTH of his avenues of attack/escape. If Aquaman and/or Guy and/or RT weren't here, this would/could probably go the other way. Although I feel that a prepped Steel could deal with him just fine, the OP demands this be a random encounter.

#115 Posted by czarny_samael666 (17174 posts) - - Show Bio

Iceman will be a problem... Cyke and Bishop are non factors.

#116 Edited by Milokill (97 posts) - - Show Bio

@heraldofganthet: Part of the physical counter you laid out for Iceman was based off the premise that Aquaman would have more control over Iceman's own form than Iceman himself would. Not sure if this is a true assumption.

Regardless, I think this Xmen group is just outmatched. I'd like to see a stronger X team in a similar battle.

#117 Posted by HeraldofGanthet (3774 posts) - - Show Bio

@milokill: Part of the physical counter you laid out for Iceman was based off the premise that Aquaman would have more control over Iceman's own form than Iceman himself would. Not sure if this is a true assumption.

Welcome to the 'Vine! I don't have the scans myself, but I've seen Aquaman doing some "Moses at the Red Sea" type stuff just hours after receiving the Waterbearer. Off the chain water-bending, mon ami. And the Lady in the Lake guaranteed him that all water (in all its forms) would be at his command on a moments notice. Hopefully someone with the scan(s) will post them for us!

Again, Welcome to the 'Vine!

#118 Edited by Milokill (97 posts) - - Show Bio

@heraldofganthet: Oh I'm not doubting Aquaman has a high level of water manipulation, I'd just like to see if Iceman has had his own ice form physically manipulated beyond his control. Being that Iceman is an Omega level mutant, that seems like it might be a hard feat to pull off... not impossible, I assume, but like I said, I'd be interested to see if this has been done before.

And thank you for the welcome.

#119 Posted by HeraldofGanthet (3774 posts) - - Show Bio

@milokill:

I get what you're saying. Though Bobby as an Omega-Level Mutant (with all of the really cool benefits of having such a designation) still has the crutch of being bound by the Laws of Physics. Aquaman's Waterbearer (being a mystical weapon) would have no such restraints. It'd be fun to watch though...

You're very welcome. I hope you enjoy your time here on the 'Vine. Just watch out for the trolls! Right, @ancient_0f_days?

#120 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (12392 posts) - - Show Bio
#121 Posted by Roddy010 (5436 posts) - - Show Bio

Great arguments for JLA but I still see the X-men taking the majority. Also what's with people saying this isn't an A team? You have Cyclops the tactician and leader, Jean who can keep the team psionically linked, Storm also a tactician who can provide cover with her AOE attacks, Iceman who can lead a distraction with his army of icemen and Bishop who.can tank and redirect what most of the JLA members can unleash. The team will definitely have their hands full but I can see them pulling a majority due to teamwork.

#122 Posted by HeraldofGanthet (3774 posts) - - Show Bio
#123 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4431 posts) - - Show Bio

@fallschirmjager:

Hawkman < Jean (Hawkman's awesome durability makes this a tough one, but I think Jean could take him, she's too flexible)

His durability won't be an issue, because she is also telepath and unless he became one with Xavier level skill and power, she can make short work of him. She can also manipulate internal physiology or simply do a quick mind scan to find out where is power comes from and remove his Nth metal. This battle won't be tough at all, or cost her any power, plus he shouldn't be able to get through her shields.

Steel < Jean (this is another tough battle for Jean, but she probably takes steel)

see above of how easy she can take him out, not a tough battle at all.

Guy + Red Tornado > Jean. (by now she's had to beat 2 extremely durable guys, she ain't winning this one)

Same here. Her first two opponents in your breakdown won't be any trouble for her, so she won't come into this third battle weakened by her previous two, she can actually take every non-telepath down at once. Lantern resistance to telepathy is not enough to say she can't get into Guys mind especially with her track record of getting through immunity without struggle, there is also the fact that the rings can and have been removed by non-telekinetics (Floronic Man IIRC), with PIS off she can remove his ring or finger, or just manipulate his mind and sap his will power. Red Tornados body is not immune to her tk she can literally rip him apart just like she ripped a prime sentinels nano-tech, and so far there don't seem to be any telepathic resistance feats attached to his elemental form.

Guy + RT+ Aquaman > Iceman

So now it will be Aquaman against Iceman and Jean, and she can just take that battle to the psi plane and as I have said before unless he is Xavier level she can take him. He won't be able to handle her telepathy and Iceman at the same time, and as an added bonus she can make him crap and vomit at the same time for fun.

#124 Posted by matchesmalone21 (9193 posts) - - Show Bio

@heraldofganthet: I'm here mate.

@fallschirmjager:

Hawkman < Jean (Hawkman's awesome durability makes this a tough one, but I think Jean could take him, she's too flexible)

His durability won't be an issue, because she is also telepath and unless he became one with Xavier level skill and power, she can make short work of him. She can also manipulate internal physiology or simply do a quick mind scan to find out where is power comes from and remove his Nth metal. This battle won't be tough at all, or cost her any power, plus he shouldn't be able to get through her shields.

Steel < Jean (this is another tough battle for Jean, but she probably takes steel)

see above of how easy she can take him out, not a tough battle at all.

Guy + Red Tornado > Jean. (by now she's had to beat 2 extremely durable guys, she ain't winning this one)

Same here. Her first two opponents in your breakdown won't be any trouble for her, so she won't come into this third battle weakened by her previous two, she can actually take every non-telepath down at once. Lantern resistance to telepathy is not enough to say she can't get into Guys mind especially with her track record of getting through immunity without struggle, there is also the fact that the rings can and have been removed by non-telekinetics (Floronic Man IIRC), with PIS off she can remove his ring or finger, or just manipulate his mind and sap his will power. Red Tornados body is not immune to her tk she can literally rip him apart just like she ripped a prime sentinels nano-tech, and so far there don't seem to be any telepathic resistance feats attached to his elemental form.

Guy + RT+ Aquaman > Iceman

So now it will be Aquaman against Iceman and Jean, and she can just take that battle to the psi plane and as I have said before unless he is Xavier level she can take him. He won't be able to handle her telepathy and Iceman at the same time, and as an added bonus she can make him crap and vomit at the same time for fun.

#125 Posted by matchesmalone21 (9193 posts) - - Show Bio
#126 Edited by Fallschirmjager (18967 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans:

@lordofallhumans said:

@fallschirmjager:

Hawkman < Jean (Hawkman's awesome durability makes this a tough one, but I think Jean could take him, she's too flexible)

His durability won't be an issue, because she is also telepath and unless he became one with Xavier level skill and power, she can make short work of him. She can also manipulate internal physiology or simply do a quick mind scan to find out where is power comes from and remove his Nth metal. This battle won't be tough at all, or cost her any power, plus he shouldn't be able to get through her shields.

Steel < Jean (this is another tough battle for Jean, but she probably takes steel)

see above of how easy she can take him out, not a tough battle at all.

Guy + Red Tornado > Jean. (by now she's had to beat 2 extremely durable guys, she ain't winning this one)

Same here. Her first two opponents in your breakdown won't be any trouble for her, so she won't come into this third battle weakened by her previous two, she can actually take every non-telepath down at once. Lantern resistance to telepathy is not enough to say she can't get into Guys mind especially with her track record of getting through immunity without struggle, there is also the fact that the rings can and have been removed by non-telekinetics (Floronic Man IIRC), with PIS off she can remove his ring or finger, or just manipulate his mind and sap his will power. Red Tornados body is not immune to her tk she can literally rip him apart just like she ripped a prime sentinels nano-tech, and so far there don't seem to be any telepathic resistance feats attached to his elemental form.

Guy + RT+ Aquaman > Iceman

So now it will be Aquaman against Iceman and Jean, and she can just take that battle to the psi plane and as I have said before unless he is Xavier level she can take him. He won't be able to handle her telepathy and Iceman at the same time, and as an added bonus she can make him crap and vomit at the same time for fun.

This battle is in character and Jean's MO is not to go-to mindrape. So to imply she shrugs off Hawkman or steal by mindrapping them is silly. She wouldn't do it.

And you are so underestimating Aquaman's TP here. He is insane powerful pre-52 TP feats, even worse with the water hand. Like I said before, I wouldn't be surprised if he can counter Jean AND Lockdown Iceman - I just didn't say he did because it didn't matter.

#127 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4431 posts) - - Show Bio

@fallschirmjager:

This battle is in character and Jean's MO is not to go-to mindrape. So to imply she shrugs off Hawkman or steal by mindrapping them is silly. She wouldn't do it.

Being in character does not mean she won't mindrape it just means she won't go for a kill as a first option. Jean spent a few years during Revolution being a telepath only, with mindrape being her only option in any battle, so in character she will user her telepathy. To shrug her off because they have high durability is silly, when she doesn't even have to attack them physically to take them out. In character and without PIS she can take them out near instantly and at the same time if she wants to.

And you are so underestimating Aquaman's TP here. He is insane powerful pre-52 TP feats, even worse with the water hand. Like I said before, I wouldn't be surprised if he can counter Jean AND Lockdown Iceman - I just didn't say he did because it didn't matter.

I'm not underestimating anything. Plenty of telepaths have insane tp feats, like Emma Frost for example, that still doesn't ever give her a win against Jean Grey. I'd be surprised if he could hang with Jean at all let alone her and Iceman at the same time. It seems you are underestimating how powerful and skilled a telepath she is.

#128 Posted by Fallschirmjager (18967 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans: I never shrugged her off. I said it would be hard for her to win because go-to mindrape is not something she does in character. Mind-rapping someone is essentially turning them into a vegetable for the rest of their life, Jean doesn't do that as first resort.

I didn't say it automatically gave him a win. I said he could probably stalemate her just like he could Stalemate Iceman indefinitely.

#129 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4431 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans: I never shrugged her off. I said it would be hard for her to win because go-to mindrape is not something she does in character. Mind-rapping someone is essentially turning them into a vegetable for the rest of their life, Jean doesn't do that as first resort.

I didn't say it automatically gave him a win. I said he could probably stalemate her just like he could Stalemate Iceman indefinitely.

You are suggesting the battle would be hard due to their durability which would suggest you are not taking her telepathy into account in essences shrugging it off as not to be used because it would be "out of character" for her to mindrape when that is basically what all telepaths do. Mindrape is forcibly invading the mind of another without consent, any action done from there whether turning them into a vegetable or making them see illusions is mindrape, even taking information from them against their will is a form of mindrape. So yeah Jean will mindrape them as there are several ways to do it. One of which is making them join her like she did to Frenzy in an attempt to rescue Xavier from Genosha, or she could just freeze them and mindwipe them like she did a neighborhood of anti-mutant humans and a room full of government agents instantly, in the same issue she rewrote Frenzys loyalties.

I don't see him stalemating her unless he somehow developed skill on par with her or Xavier, Jean has taken out other telepaths and non-telepaths alike.

#130 Posted by Roddy010 (5436 posts) - - Show Bio

@heraldofganthet: Area of Effect which means her powers effect and span the entire battle field.

#131 Posted by HeraldofGanthet (3774 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010: Area of Effect which means her powers effect and span the entire battle field.

Ahh... Got it. Though it could be argued that Guy, RT, and Steel (through broad spectrum energy attacks/the impact force of his Hammer's shockwave upon impact) also have this "AoE" phenomenon as well...

#132 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4431 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010: Area of Effect which means her powers effect and span the entire battle field.

Ahh... Got it. Though it could be argued that Guy, RT, and Steel (through broad spectrum energy attacks/the impact force of his Hammer's shockwave upon impact) also have this "AoE" phenomenon as well...

Everybody will have this ability to some degree, I think he mentions it as an advantage to Xmen because of Jeans link. Every body on the X side can pool that because X-teams are known to be linked when there is a telepath around. The DC team will have AOE but it will only be individual.

#133 Posted by HeraldofGanthet (3774 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans:

Everybody will have this ability to some degree, I think he mentions it as an advantage to Xmen because of Jeans link. Every body on the X side can pool that because X-teams are known to be linked when there is a telepath around. The DC team will have AOE but it will only be individual.

Understood. But the JLA team isn't without it's own ability to hold a telepathic conference. Just sayin...

#134 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4431 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans:

Everybody will have this ability to some degree, I think he mentions it as an advantage to Xmen because of Jeans link. Every body on the X side can pool that because X-teams are known to be linked when there is a telepath around. The DC team will have AOE but it will only be individual.

Understood. But the JLA team isn't without it's own ability to hold a telepathic conference. Just sayin...

I don't disagree, I just wasn't aware it was a tactic they used without J'onn, the Xmen are known for doing it almost every time, at least back in the day with Jean on a team.

#135 Edited by Roddy010 (5436 posts) - - Show Bio

@heraldofganthet: To some degree but not at all on the scale Storm's powers operate. no one save maybe Guy could contend with Storm in that sense. Her powers allow her team stealth as well as defensive/distraction tactics. Jean psionically linking everyone adds to their team advantage. jLA have a lot of raw power and a solid defense but This team of X-men has the versatility to pull the majority. Storm and Jean alone would be enough to cause this JLA team some trouble.

Also until I see some telepathic feats from Aquaman, I don't see him beating any telepath let alone Jean Grey.

#136 Posted by Experio (17230 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm going with X-men mainly cause of Storm

#137 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4431 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010 said:

@heraldofganthet: To some degree but not at all on the scale Storm's powers operate. no one save maybe Guy could contend with Storm in that sense. Her powers allow her team stealth as well as defensive/distraction tactics. Jean psionically linking everyone adds to their team advantage. jLA have a lot of raw power and a solid defense but This team of X-men has the versatility to pull the majority. Storm and Jean alone would be enough to cause this JLA team some trouble.

Also until I see some telepathic feats from Aquaman, I don't see him beating any telepath let alone Jean Grey.

This is an Xmen A+ team, they F***ed when they put Jean, Iceman and Storm in this, Jean can take out most of the team, and if I feel like it she can solo.

#138 Posted by Roddy010 (5436 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans: Agreed especially since no one on this JLA team save Aquaman have resistance. Even then her track record of bypassing immunity is overwhelming.

#139 Posted by New_World_Order (13516 posts) - - Show Bio

X-Men

#140 Posted by WillPayton (9823 posts) - - Show Bio

@experio said:

I'm going with X-men mainly cause of Storm

How do the X-Men win? How does Storm deal with Guy?

#141 Posted by HeraldofGanthet (3774 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton: How do the X-Men win? How does Storm deal with Guy?

She doesn't. She is killed or seriously injured full-body cast style just for trying.

#142 Edited by New_World_Order (13516 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton: Why does it have to be Storm, I had Iceman on mind, who is more than enough to take anyone on team JLA

#143 Posted by WillPayton (9823 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton: Why does it have to be Storm, I had Iceman on mind, who is more than enough to take anyone on team JLA

That was meant at @experio since he said "mainly cause of Storm".

#144 Posted by Evil Incarnate (4241 posts) - - Show Bio

The buffoonery in this thread. I mean Storm being the deciding factor? GTFOH

#145 Posted by WillPayton (9823 posts) - - Show Bio

Not looking too good for the X-Men team.

#146 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (4431 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton: why not? People seem to be forgetting that Jean is here. She can take over half the JLA team out with a single to attack. Since there are no feats of telepathic resistance for RTs elemental consciousness there's nothing to say she can't take him out as well, I'm only giving Aquaman the benefit of the doubt because he is a telepath, even though I've seen nothing to put him her league, so in the end I'd say she can take him out if they pit there minds against one another.

#147 Posted by DarkRaiden (8255 posts) - - Show Bio

The buffoonery in this thread. I mean Storm being the deciding factor? GTFOH

You mad bro? Storm can solo if she takes it serious enough. But IC she's still a deciding factor.

#148 Posted by WillPayton (9823 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton: why not? People seem to be forgetting that Jean is here. She can take over half the JLA team out with a single to attack. Since there are no feats of telepathic resistance for RTs elemental consciousness there's nothing to say she can't take him out as well, I'm only giving Aquaman the benefit of the doubt because he is a telepath, even though I've seen nothing to put him her league, so in the end I'd say she can take him out if they pit there minds against one another.

Because most people seem to have voted for the JLA B-Team to win.

#149 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (4431 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton:

I wasn't aware the winner was based on votes.

#150 Posted by WillPayton (9823 posts) - - Show Bio

@willpayton:

I wasn't aware the winner was based on votes.

Well, I suppose it's more about the consensus towards the end of the thread. But, since a lot of times people vote and then dont come back to read subsequent arguments and change their votes... it's hard to judge at times. In any case, if most of the votes are for one team winning... that's usually who's considered to win.