JLA B-Team vs X-Men A-Team

@darkraiden:

You've overlooked the fact that the Waterbearer gives Aquaman an amazing healing factor. Any damage she did to those others (which seems silly to me that a mutant with weather powers would even be noticed by people like Gladiator, Stardust, and/or Galactus is ridiculous, but oh well..) would be nullified and healed by it. By the way, let's say she succeeds in actually affecting him with lightning bolts (first time for everything I guess), That still won't help her from being cremated at the speed of light by a multi-mile wide beam from an angry GL. She's a glass cannon. All outwardly power, no useful durability feats. Hawkman is not at all useless here. Not at all. No one here can hurt him permanently, and even if they could kill him, he'd resurrect from the dead itself. Good luck to them. Aquaman could also coalesce the water vapor around her head into liquid water and force it into her lungs, drowning her in mid air.

Look, Storm's powerful. But there are too many people on this JLA team who could defeat or outright kill her if given the opportunity. Same goes for Cyclops, and/or Jean. Both of whom are also glass cannons. I can not stress this enough. The only X-Man represented here with superhuman durability is Iceman, and even he can be contained/dealt with. Bishop kind of has super durability, but it's limited to energy types of attacks and possibly Sebastian Shaw-type absorption of blunt force kinetic energy. If he braces himself for the impact that he'd have to know was coming. Bladed weapons and/or bullets take care of that, and Hawkman provides at least one of those types of weapons in large amounts with the skill to back it up. If the JLA team fights like retards, they lose. If they work even moderately competently, they sweep the board with little difficulty.

great arguement as usual. The xmen are out of their league here.

Nope. She controls water in the same way. Guy's beam would be blocked by her lightning and/or wind.

Hawkman gets oneshotted by a lightning bolt or repeatedly barraged with it till unconscious. He's a non factor.

Aquaman gets the same treatment, but add a windstorm onto it.

Storm can beat Hawkman, Aquaman, and Red Tornado with ease out of this team almost immediately and with ease.

Steel is a problem but can be ganged up on.

Guy is a REAL problem, but can be neutralized by Bishop somewhat, especially with help from people like Jean and Storm eventually.

I give X-men the victory because of Storm. Yeah people in the JLA can beat her. Supes, WW, Shazam/Captain Marvel, Martian Manhunter (if he plays it right and doesn't get too fancy), Flash (if he uses his speed right), various GLs. But not Aquaman or Hawkman.

@foreverevil:

Thank you, mon ami. Funny thing is, I actually like Bishop and Iceman! They are my 6th and 3rd favorite X-Men of all time. But even I know they are outclassed here. At least against THIS team, that is.

i love them both too. it started because of the xmen animated series in the 90's. dont worry about it man. some people just cant be reasoned with.

@foreverevil:

i love them both too. it started because of the xmen animated series in the 90's. dont worry about it man. some people just cant be reasoned with.

Well, I'm not prepared to go quite THAT far. Not yet anyway. I actually like @darkraiden. I really do. He's a good debater, though I'm saddened that he and I are on opposite sides of the issue here. He's good people. I'm sure of it.

well i wasnt referring to him ;) lol, but yea i like your strategy of being nice and try to reason with THOSE guys. That strategy isnt for me though as i dont think theyre being genuine. anyway, change of subject, i wish they made animated series like that 90s xmen again

@foreverevil:

Or Young Justice, but yeah I see your point. Congrats on reaching 1000 posts, by the way!

ooooh i loved young justice...and justice league. Avengers EMH's was good too.

@foreverevil: ooooh i loved young justice...and justice league. Avengers EMH's was good too.

Great times, good stuff... Hey @willpayton, what do you think of my analysis thus far?

I was first going to say " X-MEN " then " JLA Team ! " then " X-MEN " ... Then I've decided to read all of your posts here. Good debate guys, it's nice to see a debate without insults for once on CV !

So.

The X-Men team have some "blast powrer" character (Storm, Cyclops).

So I have some question to decide myself :

1. Is Guy a strong/amazing Green Lantern ?
2. Can Bishop take on Steel ?

It would be pretty amazing to see a Battle between RT & Storm, because I CAN'T say what will happens between these two !

I agree, but I don't see RT Solo the X-Men..

@heraldofganthet & @darkraiden: A battle between Storm & Iceman vs Aquaman is more fair for me, because an in-character Storm won't flash freeze or spam lightning. Is it a random encounter ? Because it could change everything.

Let's not forget the other characters ! I see Cyclops beating Hawkman and then teaming up with Bishop.

However, I need some answers (see above) to choose !

@willpayton said:

The JLA B-Team was easily able to sweep aside an X-Men B-Team. So now, the X-Men have sent in a team of their best... the X-Men A-Team!

JLA B-Team: Aquaman, Guy Gardner, Hawkman, Red Tornado, Steel

Gallery

VS

X-Men A-Team: Cyclops, Bishop, Iceman, Jean Gray(no phoenix), Storm

Gallery

Everyone is pre-52, in character, morals-on. Win by KO or death. No BFR allowed.

Can the JLA B-Team defeat this skilled and powerful team of X-Men?

This is not an A-List X-Men team

@willpayton: You're right, Aquaman with his Watebearer hand alone could dehydrate or evaporate the blood cells of anyone on Team X-Men.

yup, so thats ONE way to solo. Also guy could solo very easily. oh and red tornado could just cut rip them in half like he did to grundy. so thats 3 guys that can solo

i agree. its almost like he takes powerful jl members and stacks them against way weaker teams

theyre the lesser powerful JL members which is why he calls them a B team. this xmen team is considered an A team because its an upgrade over cyclops wolverine, gambit, jubilee and beast.

Correct. I tried to put together a top-level X-Men team with a bit of everything to give them versatility. The JLA members are powerful, but compared to the power of the real top guns on the JL only Guy might even crack the top 10.

Good arguments so far. I'm enjoying reading the debate.

@extremos:

• Is Guy a strong/amazing Green Lantern ?

Yes. In fact he has been awarded the title of "Honor Guard" by the Guardians themselves. He also has access to the Red Spectrum energy of Rage if he gets angry enough. Which would give him two rings instead of one.

• Can Bishop take on Steel ?

For all the good it would do him. He'd get his bones crushed to paste in a fist fight. And If Steel pimp-slapped him with his hammer, he'd end up in another zip code.

Let's not forget the other characters ! I see Cyclops beating Hawkman and then teaming up with Bishop.

I doubt that Scott could beat Hawkman in a h2h anymore than I believe he could beat Spider-Man in a h2h fight. For one thing, the strength deficit on Cyclops' part is too great and as good as he's gotten over the years, I can't believe he's better at martial arts than a guy who learned them when they were still brand new. Not to mention the difficulty of not getting torn to ribbons by a weapon strong enough to knock teeth out of freaking Despero's mouth.

@darkraiden:

Nope. She controls water in the same way. Guy's beam would be blocked by her lightning and/or wind.

If you think that some wind and lightning bolts are going to even slow down (let alone block) a mission-minded miles wide beam from an Oan Will Power Nexus, then Storm is officially the strongest character in the history of the Marvel U. She should fight crime completely naked because nothing can harm her. Beams that atomize planets into asteroids blocked by strong winds.... whoa.

Hawkman gets oneshotted by a lightning bolt or repeatedly barraged with it till unconscious. He's a non factor.

Let's pretend this is true. If Storm could somehow KO Hawkman with a barrage of lightning bolts, she 'd have to do it fast before Cyclops and/or Bishop get torn to shreds by him. So if she even could take him out (as if his healing factor wouldn't cause him to get right back up or if his Nth Metal armor wouldn't nullify her energy based attack in the first place), she'd have to watch him humiliate at least two of her comrades. Jean could just play keep away via TK, so I didn't include her in that number.

Aquaman gets the same treatment, but add a windstorm onto it.

*sigh* That Super Friends cartoon from the 70's and early 80's has a lot to answer for. Aquaman has the luxury of being able to deal with Storm on 4 possible fronts:1.) He's highly resistant to energy based and heat based attacks. I remember providing you with a link that explained that. 2.) He's very fast. And as such would present quite the targeting problem. 3.) The Waterbearer allows him teleportation abilities so great that he didn't need to use the JLA Teleport tubes the entire time he had the weapon. As a telepath of high regard (made even more powerful due to said Waterbearer), he could easily seek out her location in an instant, teleport behind her in mid-air, and karate chop, turtle pluck, pimp slap, etc.. her into paste. The man can outswim supersonic jets, and military press oil platforms. She DOES NOT survive a serious hit from him. 4.) Upon teleporting to her location, he could grab her by the throat and boil, freeze, or dehydrate her blood plasma. You know what would happen to her if he does that. Or he could just break her neck and cause them to plummet to the ground below. Except she'd already be dead and he's more than durable enough to survive the fall.

Storm can beat Hawkman, Aquaman, and Red Tornado with ease out of this team almost immediately and with ease.

You do understand that some people can overcome strong winds while flying, right? You think Hawkman has never flown through a thunderstorm once in almost 5000 years? Especially since his flight isn't even dependent on wind currents like Archangel. Nth Metal reacts to telepathic prompting when you fly by using it. This is why Hawkman can fly in space and Warren can't. The guy is at least a 7 tonner. Minimum. He can fly through a storm the same way the NOAA's Hurricane plane does. And when he does, he'll treat her skull like an overripe cantaloupe. RT is even stronger than he is, so ditto.

Steel is a problem but can be ganged up on.

I'd go for that except if Jean tries her TK tactics, she will be bombarded by sonics, microwaves, plasma blasts, or perhaps even by an EMP blast from Steel's Kinetic Hammer. She could be killed by either of those things, seeing as how they were designed to take out people far more durable than her. Not to mention that if Cyclops tries to off visor him in retaliation, the Hammer will just drink it up and when Steel throws it at him or his feet, the result could be sub nuclear in terms of the impact force. Scott's very normal person leveldurability would be vaporized on contact. Leaving Iceman and Bishop. I don't like their odds.

Guy is a REAL problem, but can be neutralized by Bishop somewhat, especially with help from people like Jean and Storm eventually.

Jean's already dead or wishing she was so, no. Bishop can be crushed by a multi-ton boulder like a bug on a windshield. All Guy would have to do is make a set of 70 foot forceps and sling the rock on top of him. If RT hasn't already snatched the air from his body, forcing his body to decompress due to air pressure at sea level.

I give X-men the victory because of Storm. Yeah people in the JLA can beat her. Supes, WW, Shazam/Captain Marvel, Martian Manhunter (if he plays it right and doesn't get too fancy), Flash (if he uses his speed right), various GLs. But not Aquaman or Hawkman.

Nothing fancy about him going invisible and intangible at Mach 7 and solidifying his hand where her heart used to be. That's pretty straightforward, actually. But the last two on your list have the means to beat her as well. Just not as quickly as a supersonic Martian.

Her wind has blocked cyclops beam as has her lightning. His full power beam is at least a mountain buster, and has been claimed that it can destroy a small planet before. So yes it can block that beam.

Jean will not stand by as Hawkman tries to kill Cyclops. Cyclops can, for one thing, hold his own h2h and his beam can easily KO Hawkman or at least keep him at bay. Bishop's not fighting him, he goes after the energy user.

If he teleports near her, he gets lightning barraged. he's not THAT fast. she hits mid flight jets with her lightning from continents away. Her winds are strong enough to control 300 ton debris and jets and more. She beat a giant kraken thing with her winds and lightning as well. she BFR'd Hulk with it. If Hulk can't get past it, neither can Aquaman and Hawkman.

Steel can't move as Jean immobilizes him, and Storm's keeping him at bay with lightning and wind. Yes she can multitask like that. Eventually he'll be taken down as Iceman puts him in absolute zero.

Intangibility gets canceled by lightning and win from Storm. She's done it before. IF he tries that he loses. Which is why i mentioned being cute.

@heraldofganthet lol you have incredible patience

@darkraiden:

I know that Cyclops' beam is pure force. If Marvel wants to have that slowed by wind, then okay. Their universe, their rules. But Guy's beams are cosmic energy, composed of force, solar level heat, and the underlying power of Will. But I tell you what, when she's blocking blasts from Terrax's Axe or the Silver Surfer with just gusts of wind, I'll be sold.

Jean's TK is a potential problem. I admitted that. But Bishop does like to mix it up, so it's not out of the question that he'd try to take Hawkman in a h2h situation. I just think he'd lose a limb or his life in the process. Hawkman's super strength combined with armor should buffer enough of Cyclops' beam if some wind could, and allow him to press forward at high subsonic or even supersonic speeds with deadly intentions.

Steel is faster than you may realize. And many of his weapons have Omni-burst capabilities if the Armor is immobilized. So she'd have to think faster than the speed of sound to beat his sonics, or faster than the speed of light to beat his plasma blasters or his microwaves. She'd be clutching her chest having a cardiac arrest before the fight even got started. Iceman would have his work cut out for him though.

The Hulk is a bad barometer (no pun intended) of her wind powers effectiveness. If he was holding on to something and she broke his grip, then we'd have a real feat. But you and I both know that vehicles for example get sucked up by tornados all of the time in the Midwest. They range from around just over a ton (Fiat 500's) to big daddy F-350's weighing in at 4 or 5 tons. The Hulk weighs 1040 lbs. With no means of self propulsion. She very well could lift and then sling him to where ever her heart desired, and he'd have no recourse except to jump back later on to get revenge. Hawkman does indeed have self propulsion, and all he has to do is will himself forward. RT, again. is even stronger than he is. Either of those two could cripple or kill her with one shot. And yes, Aquaman's teleports are very quick. Maybe even as fast as Nightcrawlers. All he has to do is "Bamf" and grab. That's all. He has plenty of options after that. Some of which are very fast and merciful.

We can leave this one since J'onn's not here, agreed?

@foreverevil: lol you have incredible patience

Well it is a virtue, after all!;)

lol yup

JL B-Team wins.

Iceman kills all of them.

Replace Bishop with Magneto/Joseph who has also been an X-Man in the past and we have a fight here. I'm an X-Men fan and even I don't think they can take this.

300 tons>Hawkman and RT strength. She's done this before, thus they can't overpower it.

She'd feel the displacement in the wind from the teleport. A simple wind shield will block his blows as they're not stronger than Cyclops's blasts. Also I don't see what cosmic blasts have to do with being blocked by wind. They're stronger sure, but that'd just take more wind seemingly. And maybe a lightning bolt.

LMAO. Comedy gold every time. Wind "blocking" cosmic energy. hahaha good stuff.

@heraldofganthet:

Good debate points. You've got me leaning toward the JL team at this point. This particular Aquaman (Waterbearer weapon or what have you) sounds like he shouldn't be in this battle lol. I don't know enough about the JL team to see if any argument can be made for the mutants, whom I am really familiar with, but he seems exceptionally powerful and I don't see the X-Men having much of a chance to win.

I have to say that some of the posts about Storm's power levels is being made to be greater than what it is, and out of context with the feats used in that argument that was presented to you. That kind of bugs me...

She never hurt Stardust or Silver Surfer, and never even attacked Galactus in that story. While Storm is in space her lightning is much more powerful than in a planetary atmosphere, and she did hit SS with a bolt that he felt, but was not hurt by it. She also hit him with a regular earth lightning bolt during the Infinity War story and he felt it, but was also not hurt by it. With Stardust Storm used the electrons in the herald's body to create a lightning bolt, which dissipated her form for a few seconds and she then reformed and was OK. These feats shouldn't be used here since this battle is not in space anyway, and it was being exaggerated as far how "effective" the showings was against the heralds. Impressive in the fact that they even felt it and what she did to Stardust, but her lightning did not hurt them. And with Gladiator it was a skrull ho was mimicking Storm's powers with tech, and used a specific wavelength of solar radiation (not lightning) to hurt Gladiator.

Her TP resistance and wind manipulation is pretty impressive. She has redirected and countered energy multiple times with wind, with her most impressive probably being Sienna Blaze's EM blast that could potentially cause high level planetary destruction. I don't know enough about the GL's though to know how powerful his beam is. I suspect that if you are comparing him to a former herald (Terrax) then his beam would probably be more powerful than she could counter with her powers.

I'm not seeing why Hawkman would be a problem for Storm if he went for her though. Her attacks are at the speed of thought, her wind force is very powerful (Cat-5 hurricane winds are not her most powerful but have held back a fleet of sentinels in flight), her lightning has hurt highly durable beings (i.e. - Adaptoid with Red hulk durability), so even if he heals I'm not why a minimum 7 tonners would be a problem to KO, and she could also flash-freeze him (which has held classic Colossus at 70 tons before on 2 occasions). Do you have any feats of Hawkman willing his flight against greater forces than her winds being focused on him? I don't think that the comparison of him flying through a thunderstorm is the same having the force of that storm concentrated specifically on him.

@thunderbolt30:

Thank you for the kind words. I think this is our first encounter with each other!:) That said, I too think that Storm's potency has been overexagerated here in this thread. She's powerful, sure. But blocking cosmic blasts with just wind is just.... I'll be nice. Thank you for the clarity on the Whole "Storm hurt Gladiator and Heralds of Galactus" thing. I was floored by that one. Guy's fellow Lantern John Stewart actually blew up the planet Xanshii while he was still a rookie Lantern, completely by accident. Guy is much more experienced today than John was 25 years ago, so imagine what he could do on purpose. Imagine that slowed down even slightly by some winds (LOL!)!

As far as Hawkman goes, he's got a determination that's off the charts. I refuse to believe that in 4500 years, he's never flown through bad weather. At the very least Ancient Egypt's sandstorms. No, I don't buy that. He's no novice at aerial combat, and he's not even dependent on air currents to fly like Storm and/or Archangel are. This is why both he and the Thanagarian Hawkmen can fly underwater and out in space with no atmosphere at all. All he has to do is will himself forward through said wind to reach his target. Not to mention the fact that nothing is stopping Guy from coating him in a GL Ring generated Aura of protection to further shield him from weather conditions. But that's the least of Storm's worries here. I'd love to see a Storm VS Guy Gardner thread, if nothing more than to use my stopwatch to see how fast the Mods lock it.

Again, thank you for the kind words.

Guy would defeat Storm with little effort, unless PIS intervened and Guy didnt have his shields on (or auto-shields enabled).

The real threats to Guy are Jean and Iceman. As a GL, Guy gets some amount of TP protection from the ring. But, it's also been shown that good telepaths like Jean can overcome that resistance. And, of all the Earth Lanterns, Guy would be my pick to be most susceptible to mental influence. As far as Iceman, it's still to be determined if the ring shields can stop Iceman's powers from getting through. I'm no expert on how Iceman's powers work, so I cant say.

@willpayton:

Guy would defeat Storm with little effort, unless PIS intervened and Guy didnt have his shields on (or auto-shields enabled).

Agreed.

The real threats to Guy are Jean and Iceman. As a GL, Guy gets some amount of TP protection from the ring. But, it's also been shown that good telepaths like Jean can overcome that resistance. And, of all the Earth Lanterns, Guy would be my pick to be most susceptible to mental influence. As far as Iceman, it's still to be determined if the ring shields can stop Iceman's powers from getting through. I'm no expert on how Iceman's powers work, so I cant say.

I agree with this also. However, I see Jean being dispatched very early on by Steel due to a telepathic warning from Aquaman about her power potential (I explained earlier how Arthur would know that). Iceman would be the most vulnerable person here to Aquaman's Waterbearer IMO and his TP if he tried to mind-jump into some other moisture form.

@heraldofganthet: Question. Who besides Guy with shields can withstand being at absolute zero? At that temperature all molecular activity would slow to a crawl if not stop completely correct?

Two problems with this. 1) While this might be possible, how many times has Aquaman done this? If this is purely a theoretical tactic, then it's very unlikely that it will be used. It might be used like 1 out of 100 fights, which means it's not really a factor here. And, 2) Even if Aquaman gives another in the team a heads up, that person will likely still have his hands full with their own fight.

All that is to say, we can always come up with extremely clever and unlikely ways for a person or team to defeat another person or team. But, in order to make a convincing argument here we should rely more on proven tactics, because those are the ones they're likely to use.

The way I kind of see this playing out is: Iceman sees Aquaman's water hand and engages him, so those two go at it. While that's happening, Jean will try to use TP on Hawkman and Guy. If she can mind-control just one of them, the odds tip in favor of the X-Men. Storm and RT go at it, and the others start brawling. I can even see Hawkman getting taken out early as he attempts to fight off the mental attack from Jean and then gets blasted out of the sky by Cyclops. But, the result of the battle rests on the outcome of Iceman v Aquaman and Guy v Jean. I could make an argument for it going either way here.

@darkraiden: Ok, let's face it now... Storm's lightning & wind are extremely powerful & can block pure energy beam, but won't block a cosmic energy. No way.

Totally agree, here.

@heraldofganthet : Okay, then I'll say :

Begining :

Steel > Bishop.

Cyclops > Hawkman ( I think that a good eye beam could knock out Hawkman, not kill him beacause I know of his good durability.)

Storm+Iceman+Jean > Red Tornado ( Three of them would be enough to beat him, with difficulty.)

Guy Gardner > Cyclops ( Energy blast & Cosmic blast confrontation.)

Then :

Aquaman+Steel+Guy G. >>> Storm+Iceman+Jean

Even a "B-Team" from JLA is incredibly powerful, woaw. But X-Men member have a very normal human durability, so they are easily KO'ed (one shot is enough to take down Scott, Storm & Jean), there's only Bishop & Iceman who could handle more.

JLA take this fight, good thread !

(By the way, sorry for my poor english, I'm french & try my best haha)

Cool.

I just see it differently.

I see:

Storm>Aquaman+Red Tornado

Cyclops+Storm's help>Hawkman

Iceman+Bishop=Guy Gardner

Storm+Jean=>Steel

Storm+Jean+Iceman+Bishop+Cylcops>Guy

Yes Storm is listed multiple times, because she can multi-task and generally controls the entire weather and atmosphere of an area.

I still see Hawkman and Aquaman being taken out rather quickly with well placed lightning and a cyclone surrounding the area. RT is wind so Storm will inevitably control and defeat him. Also Cyclop's beam doesn't help Hawkman's chances

Iceman and Bishop can cover for each other unless Guy decides to speedblitz, in which only Iceman will survive.

Storm's wind and lightning will bother Steel as Jean steadily takes him down maybe even via mind control.

Then everyone ganging up is too much for Guy.

The cards are stacked against my beloved X-Men

JLA ftw

i think so too. but you could always try to make an argument for them like darkraiden lol

@foreverevil: I don't think my efforts would make much of a difference. Jean and Bobby (two of the X-Men's most powerful mutants) turn into HUGE jobbers when they're hampered by their humanity (morals). They operate at about HALF their potential normally. They would have to pull out the big guns to change anything significant in favor of their team and I just don't see them doing

makes sense.

@bmezy: I'm gonna have to disagree with your outdated assessment of Jean and Bobby. The only thing that their morals would do is keep them from going for a kill, and both of them have killed with morals when it was the only way to survive. Neither of them has been working at what you call half of their potential for years. The fact that Bobby can heal himself, alter his form, and inhabit other sources of water go against what you are saying. In early years he couldn't do those things and that he can basically transmute inorganic materials (ice) into flesh, by using his powers to draw and freeze moisture to reform his body which he can then shift into flesh and blood.

Jean stopped holding back in the late 90s after OZT nearly killed Scott and she began wearing the Phoenix uniform and the firebird to show how powerful she really was. During OZT she was stated to be the most powerful telepath on Earth, and was always holding back when she was second most powerful. After Xavier got his power back I honestly don't remember her being his second anymore, which may have been due to her no longer holding back and always being naturally more powerful than him.

In the battles forums they will both fight to the best of their abilities in character and in character Jean has manipulated internal organs and nano-tech, and shut off minds if the situation calls for it, a fight when the opponent can win by killing you or you team would warrant her using those tactics and I ain't buying that Aquaman is Xavier level especially in skill and that is the kind of power and skill he'd need to even begin to be a threat to Jean.

The Xmen are a well oiled machine especially when they have a telepath on the field, they will all be linked feeding each other information gathered by their senses and experience from training together. They will be fed all kind of tactics from Scott to take the other team off balance and have been known to frequently switch opponents in mid battle as one of these tactics. Jean can begin by mind raping this team, Aquaman being a telepath may be a challenge but IMO she can take him in a psychic battle. RT is an android, but she can manipulate tech (even nano) and with the others his body can be destroyed and IIRC the elementals need a host body to act.

Than yeah I don't think she is a problem for the GL lol.

I'm not convinced on your Hawkman points though. I was hoping for some scans to support your speculations. It sounds more like you are speculating that Hawkman has had to have flown through bad weather at some point in his lifetime, which is reasonable, but irrelevant.

Flying through bad weather is NOT representative of Storm's power by any stretch. If she removed the air currents around him and finds that he is still flying I don't see why a hyper-localized F5 tornado wouldn't be more than enough to tear him out of the sky and smack him into the ground or a building. I also don't see why he would not be KO'd by lightning bolts that hurt people who more than 10 times more durable than he is, or how he escape a flash-freeze that has held a target that is 10 times stronger than he is (based on your example of his minimum strength being 7 tons).

I haven't seen any proof (like the good example of the GL explanation you gave) that he could handle Storm's power output by himself. He would definitely need help.

Teamwork is definitely a factor to be considered for both sides, but it seems like the power of the GL and Aquaman with the Waterbearer is just too much for these X-Men, as most of them don't have the durability to take much damage.

Pretty much.

@willpayton:

Two problems with this. 1) While this might be possible, how many times has Aquaman done this? If this is purely a theoretical tactic, then it's very unlikely that it will be used. It might be used like 1 out of 100 fights, which means it's not really a factor here. And, 2) Even if Aquaman gives another in the team a heads up, that person will likely still have his hands full with their own fight.

I don't have the scans of Aquaman performing some serious water-bending. I think that @beatboks1, @lion_heart22, and/or @comicfan11 could probably help here with that one. As to the other point, a very reasonable alternative to Steel (for example) being alerted to Jean's powers and their intensity are Guy's Ring's analytical abilities as well as Steel's own sensors contained within his armor. My point being that there are plenty of ways to let the "B"-Team know what the threat assessment is at the very onset of the battle. I have a hard time believing that she survives a full spectrum radiological attack while he simultaneously launches a mega sonic attack in her direction. Let alone produce a cogent thought to perform psionic feats in the first place. Ditto for Storm by the way, and her weather bending. How do you control something as intricate as weather when you can't even hear yourself think, are coughing up your liquefied internal organs, or you're dealing with your entire skeleton reduced to talc powder via sonic barrage?

All that is to say, we can always come up with extremely clever and unlikely ways for a person or team to defeat another person or team. But, in order to make a convincing argument here we should rely more on proven tactics, because those are the ones they're likely to use.

The way I kind of see this playing out is: Iceman sees Aquaman's water hand and engages him, so those two go at it. While that's happening, Jean will try to use TP on Hawkman and Guy. If she can mind-control just one of them, the odds tip in favor of the X-Men. Storm and RT go at it, and the others start brawling. I can even see Hawkman getting taken out early as he attempts to fight off the mental attack from Jean and then gets blasted out of the sky by Cyclops. But, the result of the battle rests on the outcome of Iceman v Aquaman and Guy v Jean. I could make an argument for it going either way here.

It could be argued that Hawkman has the aerial skills to evade or block the beam with his weaponry, but i'll let that go for now...

@lordofallhumans: Wazzup, LOAH!! Long time no hear! Hope you've been well! I've just got to correct you on one thing:

" RT is an android, but she can manipulate tech (even nano) and with the others his body can be destroyed and IIRC the elementals need a host body to act." He chooses to inhabit the android body to interact with humanity and not be so aloof like most other supernatural beings. Kind of like Thor's time as Donald Blake, sort of. The Tornado Tyrant can exist independently from the body. Hope this was helpful!

@thunderbolt30:

I'm not convinced on your Hawkman points though. I was hoping for some scans to support your speculations. It sounds more like you are speculating that Hawkman has had to have flown through bad weather at some point in his lifetime, which is reasonable, but irrelevant.

Flying through bad weather is NOT representative of Storm's power by any stretch. If she removed the air currents around him and finds that he is still flying I don't see why a hyper-localized F5 tornado wouldn't be more than enough to tear him out of the sky and smack him into the ground or a building. I also don't see why he would not be KO'd by lightning bolts that hurt people who more than 10 times more durable than he is, or how he escape a flash-freeze that has held a target that is 10 times stronger than he is (based on your example of his minimum strength being 7 tons).

I went back to re-read the OP and I need to make a concession: I thought that both Pre and Post-Flashpoint feats for the "B"-Team were applicable here. But he wouldn't have his most recent armor here. He's tough, but she might take him down via multiple lightning strikes. He'd heal of course, but this attack may ground him temporarily. Guy Gardner could however envelope him at the onset of this battle (she's not the only one here who can multi-task, by the way) in a Protective Aura to defend against that very thing. Hypothetically..

I haven't seen any proof (like the good example of the GL explanation you gave) that he could handle Storm's power output by himself. He would definitely need help.

Agreed. See above.

@heraldofganthet: what up Herald, I've been good and you?

Now about RT, if the android form is used as a way to connect to humanity, then wouldn't that also include morals? If not having this form removes his humanity wouldn't he be without morals and by the OP rules no longer be able to fight?

@lordofallhumans:

I've been good, mon ami. We must have been just missing each other out here on these expansive Battle Forums (*hehehe*) As far as RT being bloodlusted.... push him too far and it's ugly. But as evidenced by his last battle with the Crime Syndicate, when Ultraman breeched his android form, he one shotted the entire team just one panel later. Without bloodlusting. He just blasted their a$$e$$ quick fast. Ultraman, Superwoman and company all have substantial superhuman durability, so they were still conscious, but they were groggy as hell after his attack. Somebody has this scan, I just know it.

Storm and company lack such durability. Well, Bobby and Bishop do to an extent, but their partners don't (LOL)!

In what universe is this a A-team only one enough to be in an X a team here is Iceman

@heraldofganthet:

Cool:)

Jeans tk shields more than make up for her durability, she's withstood blasts from a bloodlusted mind controlled Binary tapping power directly from a white hole which also expels whatever a black hole consumes. Her shields have also taken a blast from a Shadowking possessed Legion, that would have destroyed an island, on top of anchoring herself against Storms winds and Legions time vortex at the same time, she can IMO protect herself and her team from his blasts. Now I assume since his true nature is that of an air elemental inside if an android it's safe to say he has some kind of consciousness, now we know Jean can touch his android brain via tk, and that she can telepathically touch minds not restricted to having organic brains, and even invade "immune" minds all she needs is the right "psychic key", what are his non-android protections against telepathy?

@lordofallhumans: what are his non-android protections against telepathy?

That is a very good question. I've never seen anyone even try to attack him in that way. I don't even know what to tell you on that front. Perhaps some RT fans from way back can school us to the game.......?

@marlboroman:

Then you obviously don't know much about Jean or Storm for that matter. Jean can take Iceman down easy.

Even if there are multiple scenarios where this can happen, I still think it's highly unlikely. The scenario that you're putting forward is that 1) Aquaman figures out that Jean is a telepath, 2) he determines that she's so threatening that they all have to take her down first, 3) he convinces the rest to ignore the entire team and just focus on her, and 4) they can successfully attack and get through her shields and mental defenses even while being attacked themselves.

All that is very unlikely and I've never seen that go down in a comic book team v team fight. What normally happens is the teams fight each other so that everyone is occupied. If anyone is ignored then that person can double-team another on the op team, so obviously here w/ 5 v 5 they'll all be busy initially with 1 on 1s.