Jean Grey vs. Selene

Basic Jean WITHOUT the Phoenix Force vs. Selene (Pre-Necrosha), who wins?

I'm backing Selene on this one. Let's go!

Selene turns Jean Grey into a pile of dust.

Anyone going to disagree with us?

Selene should win this..

I'll argue for Jean...How does Selene stomp?

I think Jean is being underestimated here. Selene is powerful but I do recall that a TP attack from Xavier was pretty effective against her in classic X-Men, and I believe a non-PF powered Jean is in Charles' class and is just as skilled. Plus with Jean's TK she can defend against all of Selene's attack, save for maybe some form of magical attack.

In terms of power Selene could stand against but Jean Grey actually wins, she is an Omega-Level Mutant whose telepathy can overcome Selene's mind since she hasn't shown very effective TP defense. As for TK Jean would stomp, Selene's only hope is her magic really

@THUNDERBOLT30 said:

I think Jean is being underestimated here. Selene is powerful but I do recall that a TP attack from Xavier was pretty effective against her in classic X-Men, and I believe a non-PF powered Jean is in Charles' class and is just as skilled. Plus with Jean's TK she can defend against all of Selene's attack, save for maybe some form of magical attack.

While I agree that a non-PF Jean is stronger than Selene in the TP department, she does not even approach Xavier when you compare their feats. Jean's TK is no protection from Selene's shadow form. You can't telekinetically grab a shadow nor will a Jean's force-field block Selene out. For instance, when Magneto erected his force-field against Selene in a battle, Selene was able to pass right through his force-field in her shadow form and suck on his life force since her shadow form can pass through anything light can penetrate.

Selene does have spells to counter telepaths. For instance, circa Uncanny 192, she used such a spell against Rachel to prevent Rachel from using her TP against her or from telepathically warning the other X-Men about Selene's presence. I don't know if Selene can pull this spell off in the heat of battle when someone isn't going to sit there and give her time to weave her sigals and speak her spells, but there are other things Selene has that can give her an advantage against Jean. For instance, her control over inorganic matter can be used to strain Jean out. I have seen Selene animate rock giants to attack Magma. Once she animated these two rock giants, she completely ignored them and concentrated on other things as the giants battled their target, Magma, on their own accord. This means if she creates some large rock gollems and animates them, they can put the pressure on Jean to force her to use a great deal of her concentation on a TK bubble. Selene would then be free to put all of her focus in a TP attack on Jean while Jean's concentration is torn between maintaining a TK defense against Selene's rock creatures and waging TP combat against Selene. Selene can do all of this while in shadow form to make herself immune to any TK attack Jean may attempt on her.

@Stormcell: Well, Selene's shadow form isn't really a shadow in the technical sense. She's clearly matter of some sort and there's no reason TK can't effect it. I'd wager her shadow form gives her intangibility and Jean has already used her TK on a molecular level (fixing Emma). Her magic is a wild card but it comes at a price (still drains her doesn't it?).

I give it to Jean. She overwhelms Selene with omega-strength POWAH!

SELENE

leaning towards jean. her tk should be very handy in this fight. 

@Stormcell: Jean has surpassed Xavier in the telepathy department. So much so that she was able to peak into the future. Having precog abilities is a sign of being a full psionic on Jean's part. She's been able to replicate some of Xavier's feats and I'd at the very least put her on par with Xavier. Add to the fact that she is an omega level mutant so she has more potential with her powers.

As for this fight Selene in a shadow form still has a consciousness that can be exploited by Jean. I see no reason she couldn't detect Selene in this form and unless Selene has prep I don't see her countering Jean's telepathic assault.

Jean's tk could possibly overwhelm Selene. She blasted a hole through a wall in a fit of anger.A move like this will knock Selene out instantly.

@Stormcell: I disagree on Jean not being in Chuck's class of power but I don't think it's a critical point to agree on. Her TP is powerful enough to overcome Selene IMO. If Selene could force Jean to put more focus away from her TP, I can see how Selene could win, especially if she could use her magic, but I haven't seen a solid argument that can guarantee she can pull that off against Jean before her TP rips through Selene. A TP assault or psi-bolt can happen right from the gate. Even in her shadow form I believe Rachel Grey was able to use her TP against Selene very successfully. Jean can still use her TK to fly to a safe range to give her room and time to defend against Selene's pyrokinesis or control of inanimate objects, and place herself in a force field while still being able to use her telepathy.

Da..........Jean stomps her into next week, tells her to play with Cyclops d*ck, then mindr*pes her.

@Roddy010 said:

@Stormcell: Jean has surpassed Xavier in the telepathy department. So much so that she was able to peak into the future. Having precog abilities is a sign of being a full psionic on Jean's part. She's been able to replicate some of Xavier's feats and I'd at the very least put her on par with Xavier. Add to the fact that she is an omega level mutant so she has more potential with her powers.

As for this fight Selene in a shadow form still has a consciousness that can be exploited by Jean. I see no reason she couldn't detect Selene in this form and unless Selene has prep I don't see her countering Jean's telepathic assault.

Jean's tk could possibly overwhelm Selene. She blasted a hole through a wall in a fit of anger.A move like this will knock Selene out instantly.

Where has Jean done feats beyond Xavier without the PF? Also, her TK would be useless in this fight against since Selene's shadow form makes her impervious to any TK assault from Jean Grey. The way I see this fight unfolding is Selene shifts into shadow form while animating large statues of stone around her to attack Jean Grey. At the same time, Jean erects a TK barrier while launching a TP assault at Selene. As for the results: Selene's own telepathic shields absorb enough of Jean initial TP assault to keep her in the game. At the same time, Jean has to divert a lot of her concentration from her TP to use in her TK to hold off Selene's stone statues. Now, Jean's TP is severely weakened from multitasking.

The advantage Selene has is once she animates a statue, she doesn't have to continually focus on it or use her powers to keep it animated. It continues to do her bidding as if it has a life of its own. Jean, on the other hand, has to continually use her concentration on her TK defenses to keep the stone statues at bay. This means she won't have much concentration left to wage psi war against Selene while Selene is free to use ALL of her concentration in a TP assault on Jean.

Another option for Selene would be for her to run up to Jean at super speed while Jean is distracted by the statues and pass through Jean's shields in her shadow form to drain her life force. She can deflect Jean's psibolts with her own psipowers until she reaches her.

@Stormcell: I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you.Xavier has said himself time and time again that Jean would one day surpass him in power and skill (and she has) and she has shown time and time again that she can do things telepathically that he deemed impossible. . At the height of her power Xavier was afraid to enter her mind for fear of his being turned to ash. Also, Jean has use her tk and tp simultaneously and has done so on many occasions. A few "giant" stones are going to divert Jean's attention from her TP?? really? Need I remind you that this is the same Jean that telekinetically working on a molecular level to keep a nano-bomb from expanding thus detonating, while deadening Cyclops pain centers and "jamming" the psychic equivalent of an encyclopedias worth of information into Cecelia Reyes' mind, all three of these actions where done at the same time or While chasing Binary in hyperspace she not only has to create a shield that can provide her with a suitable atmosphere to survive, and maintain it while fending off blasts and radiation of a WHITE HOLE STAR, but she also taps into Binarys mind and shuts her off from her power source! Jean's tp was so versitile as to use her telepathy and 4 different ways simultaneously! time like the time she telepathically attacked a horde of demons, while boosting Wolverine and Thunderbird, absorbing their fatigue and fighting another demon with realistic illusion...and she can pull this off in a DROP OF A HAT with little to NO discomfort. The same Jean that even your beloved storm admitted that the full force of telepathy would rip through any mental shield natural or artifical..whose tp affected the inconquerable wills of both magneto and the juggernaunt when both of them were deemed immuned to TP, but yet Selene "animate" stones will "strain" Jean's shield to where she cannot summon the psionic energy to fry Selene's sypnosis into oblivion..a being that has unrivilled raw psionic power?? I'm not buying it, bud

well you certainly wrapped that argument strongly lol. May i know where "she telepathically attacked a horde of demons, while boosting Wolverine and Thunderbird, absorbing their fatigue and fighting another demon with realistic illusion" happened :)

@martinceld: X-Men: Black Sun #4 (very cool story for the X-Men)

Here is the issue summary:

http://uncannyxmen.net/comics/issue/x-men-black-sun-4

@thunderbolt30: oh I read that way back when but for some reason I always thought it was its own comic, like just a special mini series that wasn't cannon LOL

1) When Xavier was afraid of approach Jean's thoughts for fear of his thoughts being burned to ash, that was when Jean had the PF. It doesn't count.

2) Jean did not do any of those things to Binary until she located her, travelled to where she was and then she shut down her mind. Admittedly, she did have her TK field up in this instance.

3) In the Thunderbird 3 example you mentioned from "Black Sun", Jean lost her TK to Psylocke and gained Psylocke's TP in return. In other words, her TP power was boosted well above her normal levels. The same is true when her TP was stated to be strong enough to rip through mental shields, natural or artificial.

4) Any story that shows Jean Grey getting into Magneto's head under normal circumances is PIS against Magneto.

Xavier is MUCH more powerful than Jean Grey without the PF. He has been able to contact the X-Men telepathically while being half across the galaxy from them (and this was without Cerebro). He is the only telepath Shadow King deems a threat to him in battle. He was able to battle the Dark Phoenix on "all the infinite planes of reality at the same time." While Exodus dwarfed Jean's psi powers, Xavier was established to be a stronger psi than Exodus. I'm sorry, but Xavier vs. Jean in the TP department is not a fight at all. Xavier curbstomps.

Getting back to Jean Grey vs. Selene, the main problem in this fight for Selene is Jean's TP. If Selene can get around that for the first split second of the battle, she wins. If not, then Jean wins.

Selene's shadow-form alone will give Jean Grey trouble, adding magic-based attacks will make her existence futile!

Selene

@stormcell:

Damn fine battle you have here tough one.

Jean has superior to, and she has tk which could affect Selene and her Shadow form.

But Selene is a powerful mystic which she can find ways to win.

Going to say depends on whonis faster on thendrae so to speak.

I would personally back Selene.

This is far from a stomp, though.

Ehh, I say Selene.

It is 50/50. Selene lived 17 thousand years and is an exceptional magical user, can control inanimate objects, is a high order psychic, can manipulate shadow/darkness, she is sort of a vampire too.

Jean on the other hand is the most powerful psychic of the planet (was called "the all powerful psychic" by the future X generations). Her telekinesis is at its peak, making her a matter manipulator.

I would argue that Selene is a powerful and that she is an omega level mutant. Just cos she wasnt confirmed to be one doesnt mean she is any less. Jean is in alot of trouble but i dont see hwr losing if she doesnt hold back, which she always does.

@emmett_frost: if omega level mutant status is non confirmed then she is not an omega level mutant especially since many of her powers are either not mutant in nature (magic) or were absorbed from others. The mutant power she was born with is her life force draining power. Jean stopped holding back after OZT and now holds back even less than that. Jean wins this.

I believe Jean has better telepathy feats and should be able to take her out.

Selene was on the same level as classic Emma, and Current Jean would stomp that Emma frost.

@lordofallhumans: Selene's powers r hers and is from her mutation, the magic included I think. Plus Selene hasn't even shown her potential. But she is clearly above Magneto'so level.

@del_torro: really? She is well beyond Emma Frost. Enchantress was very much terrified when she freed Selene from her prison.

Jean

@emmett_frost: Magic is not a mutant power. Selene has one mutant power she was born with. That power was life force draining, she can use those energies in conjunction with her magic, but magic is not something she was born with and her magic drains her own life force, so her mutant power compensates. It's almost as ridiculous as people saying Apocalypse is a telepath, even though he needed Cable to enter the astral plane, which all real Telepaths are naturally connected to. So if he's a telepath, why can't he enter the astral plane by himself, especially considering people like to say he's a powerful one?

Jean.

copy that

I don't know how Jean's TK interacts with Selene's shadow form, but regardless, her telepathy should be enough to beat Selene. Also, the statement above about Jean not being on Xavier's level telepathically is quite an antiquated notion. She is very much on his level. She may not be quite as skilled, but she's definitely very close, and her raw power makes up for whatever little she lacks in skill compared to Xavier.

This.

Selene was afraid of Maddie, the poor man's Jean.

@emmett_frost: He’s talking about telepathy wise, not overall. Selene is not on Emma’s level telepathically.

Idk...I mean high end feats for Jean would make this a curbstomp in her favor, but Selene has enough versatility to indirectly attack or distract her.

In 10 matches Jean takes 6 especially the longer they go, the other 4 has Selene's diversity and draining giving it to her. Two characters whose low end showings drag them both down.

Jean, very easily at that. Selene is powerful, but in terms of tp she's out of her league.

@elpendejo: any proof she is not? She is a high order psychic plus a vampire. She feeds on the energy just like Exodus but writers ignore that in order to write good stories.

@lordofallhumans: magic is not a mutant power? Says who? Some mutants the magical like Wanda, Magik, Pixie etc.and this is what makes the mutants dangerous, it is all about how different and powerful their genes r.

@emmett_frost: There’s no proof that she is. I mean what are Selene’s psychic feats?

selene

Selene was not as powerful of a telepath as Classic Emma. However, while Emma was the more powerful psi between the two, Selene has a ton of other abilities besides telepathy.

That said, while Jean would win against Selene in a pure TP fight (assuming Selene didn't boosted her power levels by absorbing the life force of several people before the fight), I still maintain that Selene has the advantage in this fight. Selene has mystical force-fields, a shadow form that can pass through Jean's force-field, magic, and control over inanimate objects that would strain out Jean, leaving her wide open to a TP assault from Selene while Jean's focus is divided between Selene's other attacks.

bump

Selene.

Jean, Selene couldn't stop Xavier

@cruelrain: there is a superior thread with pretty pictures

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/jean-grey-vs-selene-gallio-2047335/