#1 Edited by Stormcell (1076 posts) - - Show Bio

Basic Jean WITHOUT the Phoenix Force vs. Selene (Pre-Necrosha), who wins?

I'm backing Selene on this one. Let's go!

#3 Posted by Phylos (2569 posts) - - Show Bio

Selene turns Jean Grey into a pile of dust.

#4 Posted by Stormcell (1076 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyone going to disagree with us?

#5 Posted by KMART4455 (1290 posts) - - Show Bio

Selene should win this..

#6 Posted by Roddy010 (4930 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll argue for Jean...How does Selene stomp?

#7 Posted by THUNDERBOLT30 (9004 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Jean is being underestimated here. Selene is powerful but I do recall that a TP attack from Xavier was pretty effective against her in classic X-Men, and I believe a non-PF powered Jean is in Charles' class and is just as skilled. Plus with Jean's TK she can defend against all of Selene's attack, save for maybe some form of magical attack.

#8 Posted by torzone (396 posts) - - Show Bio

In terms of power Selene could stand against but Jean Grey actually wins, she is an Omega-Level Mutant whose telepathy can overcome Selene's mind since she hasn't shown very effective TP defense. As for TK Jean would stomp, Selene's only hope is her magic really

#9 Posted by Stormcell (1076 posts) - - Show Bio

@THUNDERBOLT30 said:

I think Jean is being underestimated here. Selene is powerful but I do recall that a TP attack from Xavier was pretty effective against her in classic X-Men, and I believe a non-PF powered Jean is in Charles' class and is just as skilled. Plus with Jean's TK she can defend against all of Selene's attack, save for maybe some form of magical attack.

While I agree that a non-PF Jean is stronger than Selene in the TP department, she does not even approach Xavier when you compare their feats. Jean's TK is no protection from Selene's shadow form. You can't telekinetically grab a shadow nor will a Jean's force-field block Selene out. For instance, when Magneto erected his force-field against Selene in a battle, Selene was able to pass right through his force-field in her shadow form and suck on his life force since her shadow form can pass through anything light can penetrate.

Selene does have spells to counter telepaths. For instance, circa Uncanny 192, she used such a spell against Rachel to prevent Rachel from using her TP against her or from telepathically warning the other X-Men about Selene's presence. I don't know if Selene can pull this spell off in the heat of battle when someone isn't going to sit there and give her time to weave her sigals and speak her spells, but there are other things Selene has that can give her an advantage against Jean. For instance, her control over inorganic matter can be used to strain Jean out. I have seen Selene animate rock giants to attack Magma. Once she animated these two rock giants, she completely ignored them and concentrated on other things as the giants battled their target, Magma, on their own accord. This means if she creates some large rock gollems and animates them, they can put the pressure on Jean to force her to use a great deal of her concentation on a TK bubble. Selene would then be free to put all of her focus in a TP attack on Jean while Jean's concentration is torn between maintaining a TK defense against Selene's rock creatures and waging TP combat against Selene. Selene can do all of this while in shadow form to make herself immune to any TK attack Jean may attempt on her.

#10 Edited by GreenFuse (295 posts) - - Show Bio

@Stormcell: Well, Selene's shadow form isn't really a shadow in the technical sense. She's clearly matter of some sort and there's no reason TK can't effect it. I'd wager her shadow form gives her intangibility and Jean has already used her TK on a molecular level (fixing Emma). Her magic is a wild card but it comes at a price (still drains her doesn't it?).

I give it to Jean. She overwhelms Selene with omega-strength POWAH!

#11 Posted by EnhancedHuman (190 posts) - - Show Bio

SELENE

#12 Posted by charlieboy (7136 posts) - - Show Bio

leaning towards jean. her tk should be very handy in this fight. 

#13 Posted by Roddy010 (4930 posts) - - Show Bio

@Stormcell: Jean has surpassed Xavier in the telepathy department. So much so that she was able to peak into the future. Having precog abilities is a sign of being a full psionic on Jean's part. She's been able to replicate some of Xavier's feats and I'd at the very least put her on par with Xavier. Add to the fact that she is an omega level mutant so she has more potential with her powers.

As for this fight Selene in a shadow form still has a consciousness that can be exploited by Jean. I see no reason she couldn't detect Selene in this form and unless Selene has prep I don't see her countering Jean's telepathic assault.

Jean's tk could possibly overwhelm Selene. She blasted a hole through a wall in a fit of anger.A move like this will knock Selene out instantly.

#14 Posted by THUNDERBOLT30 (9004 posts) - - Show Bio

@Stormcell: I disagree on Jean not being in Chuck's class of power but I don't think it's a critical point to agree on. Her TP is powerful enough to overcome Selene IMO. If Selene could force Jean to put more focus away from her TP, I can see how Selene could win, especially if she could use her magic, but I haven't seen a solid argument that can guarantee she can pull that off against Jean before her TP rips through Selene. A TP assault or psi-bolt can happen right from the gate. Even in her shadow form I believe Rachel Grey was able to use her TP against Selene very successfully. Jean can still use her TK to fly to a safe range to give her room and time to defend against Selene's pyrokinesis or control of inanimate objects, and place herself in a force field while still being able to use her telepathy.

#15 Posted by menaceforever (3696 posts) - - Show Bio

Da..........Jean stomps her into next week, tells her to play with Cyclops d*ck, then mindr*pes her.

#16 Posted by Stormcell (1076 posts) - - Show Bio

@Roddy010 said:

@Stormcell: Jean has surpassed Xavier in the telepathy department. So much so that she was able to peak into the future. Having precog abilities is a sign of being a full psionic on Jean's part. She's been able to replicate some of Xavier's feats and I'd at the very least put her on par with Xavier. Add to the fact that she is an omega level mutant so she has more potential with her powers.

As for this fight Selene in a shadow form still has a consciousness that can be exploited by Jean. I see no reason she couldn't detect Selene in this form and unless Selene has prep I don't see her countering Jean's telepathic assault.

Jean's tk could possibly overwhelm Selene. She blasted a hole through a wall in a fit of anger.A move like this will knock Selene out instantly.

Where has Jean done feats beyond Xavier without the PF? Also, her TK would be useless in this fight against Selene directly as Selene's shadow form should make her impervious to any TK assault from Jean Grey. The way I see this fight unfolding is Selene shifts into shadow form while animating large statues of stone around her to attack Jean Grey. At the same time, Jean erects a TK barrier while launching a TP assault at Selene. This is how I see the results of this: Selene's own telepathic shields absorb enough of Jean initial TP assault to keep her in the game. At the same time, Jean now has to divert a lot of her concentration from her TP to use in her TK to hold off Selene's stone statues. Jean's TP is now severely weakened now she has to divide her concentration between TP and TK to hold off the stone giants while trying to TP attack Selene. The advantage Selene has here is once she animates a statue, she doesn't have to continually focus on it or use her powers to keep it animated. It continues to do her bidding as if it has a life of its own, which, in a sense, it does. Selene animates inorganic matter by imparting a portion of her life force into it, thus, it obeys her commands. Jean, on the other hand, has to continually use her concentration on her TK defenses to keep the stone statues at bay. This means she won't have much concentration left to wage psi war against Selene while Selene is now free to use ALL of her concentration in a TP assault on Jean while Jean's concentration is divided between the statues and Selene's TP. Selene could even opt to allow the statues to run up to Jean at super speed while Jean is being distracted by the statues and pass through Jean's shields in her shadow form to drain her life force while deflecting Jean's TP bolts with her own psychic powers. She can deflect Jean's TP since Jean's TP is weakened owing to the lack of concentration due to the stone giants attacking her shields.

#17 Posted by BMEZY (1201 posts) - - Show Bio

@Stormcell: I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you.Xavier has said himself time and time again that Jean would one day surpass him in power and skill (and she has) and she has shown time and time again that she can do things telepathically that he deemed impossible. . At the height of her power Xavier was afraid to enter her mind for fear of his being turned to ash. Also, Jean has use her tk and tp simultaneously and has done so on many occasions. A few "giant" stones are going to divert Jean's attention from her TP?? really? Need I remind you that this is the same Jean that telekinetically working on a molecular level to keep a nano-bomb from expanding thus detonating, while deadening Cyclops pain centers and "jamming" the psychic equivalent of an encyclopedias worth of information into Cecelia Reyes' mind, all three of these actions where done at the same time or While chasing Binary in hyperspace she not only has to create a shield that can provide her with a suitable atmosphere to survive, and maintain it while fending off blasts and radiation of a WHITE HOLE STAR, but she also taps into Binarys mind and shuts her off from her power source! Jean's tp was so versitile as to use her telepathy and 4 different ways simultaneously! time like the time she telepathically attacked a horde of demons, while boosting Wolverine and Thunderbird, absorbing their fatigue and fighting another demon with realistic illusion...and she can pull this off in a DROP OF A HAT with little to NO discomfort. The same Jean that even your beloved storm admitted that the full force of telepathy would rip through any mental shield natural or artifical..whose tp affected the inconquerable wills of both magneto and the juggernaunt when both of them were deemed immuned to TP, but yet Selene "animate" stones will "strain" Jean's shield to where she cannot summon the psionic energy to fry Selene's sypnosis into oblivion..a being that has unrivilled raw psionic power?? I'm not buying it, bud