Jean Grey vs Cassandra Nova (TP Battle)

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marvelfan1992

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#1  Edited By marvelfan1992

No results came up from a search so here we go.

Pure TP battle. No PF. They start 30m apart in an open field

which lady takes it?

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marvelfan1992

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deactivated-5e385ee5c8c54

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cassandra nova has got to be the ugliest (human or maybe not eve human) telepath ever

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comic_book_fan

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Cassandra wins

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Veitha

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I'm unsecure about this one.

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THUNDERBOLT30

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#6  Edited By THUNDERBOLT30

Good fight. I'm leaning toward Jean in a very good TP battle. I find Jean to be the overall more impressive telepath based on feats.

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JediXMan

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#7 JediXMan  Moderator

Leaning toward Jean.

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Roddy010

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#8  Edited By Roddy010

@marvelfan1992: Cassandra Nova is is on the same level as Xavier powerwise but she lacks the finese and combat experience to.fight Jean, who is more powerful than them both. In New X-men 121, Jean and Emma were able to enter her mind to retrieve the consciousness of Xavier. Jean had little to know trouble overcoming all the mental traps and obstacles placed by Cassandra. The same couldn't be said for Emma lol, but she did play a major part in defeating her. I say Jean takes this with some to very little trouble. Cassandra could not and would not stand against Jean's Phoenix Raptor (the totality of her psionic might).

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New_World_Order

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#9  Edited By New_World_Order

Good fight. I'm leaning toward Jean in a very good TP battle. I find Jean to be the overall more impressive telepath based on feats.

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DaredevilDD78

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#10  Edited By DaredevilDD78

i'm going with Jean

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jaxthejester_2014

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Nova. She's an absolute beast. The full potential of what Prof. X could have been.

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jaxthejester_2014

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I did like this Xavier clone. She had a certain flair to her.

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comic_book_fan

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@roddy010: jean isn't more powerfl than xavier and nova beat jean the first time they fought.

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Stormdriven

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So that... thing, is actually a woman? I swear I thought it was a man who got a girly name.

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deactivated-5e385ee5c8c54

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@stormdriven: her face is like a b*ll sack after an hour in a hot tub

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Outside_85

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So that... thing, is actually a woman? I swear I thought it was a man who got a girly name.

If you really wanna know, Cassandra is essentially Charles' twin sister that had to make do with his spare genes to grow a body, which is why she looks like him.

Anyways, Non-Phoenix Jean would loose this, as we saw in the Morrison books, Cassandra was base-line more powerful than Jean (as an example, the Shi'ar showed up wearing mind-armor that stopped Jean's TP, it barely slowed Cassandra down).

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Roddy010

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#17  Edited By Roddy010

@roddy010: jean isn't more powerfl than xavier and nova beat jean the first time they fought.

Xavier has always stated Jean had the power and potential to surpass him, which definitely showed in the New X-men run. Jean's telepathy had advance so far at this point that Xavier couldn't even penetrate her mind without his thoughts turning into ash. She was also able to splinter his consciousness into the minds of mutants across the planet, which was considered telepathically impossible.

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Also Cassandra had prep and ambushed the X-men. She attacked Jean through Scott, taking advantage of their psychic raport causing her mental fatigue but their second encounter Cassandra couldn't even stand against Jean's Phoenix Raptor.

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@stormdriven said:

So that... thing, is actually a woman? I swear I thought it was a man who got a girly name.

If you really wanna know, Cassandra is essentially Charles' twin sister that had to make do with his spare genes to grow a body, which is why she looks like him.

Anyways, Non-Phoenix Jean would loose this, as we saw in the Morrison books, Cassandra was base-line more powerful than Jean (as an example, the Shi'ar showed up wearing mind-armor that stopped Jean's TP, it barely slowed Cassandra down).

That example is PIS at its finest considering the fact that the Cuckoos by passed their psi-armor to attack Oracle. Also considering Jean has bypassed numerous forms of telepathic resistance and immunity(I.e. Emma Frost, Juggernaut) and undid ever bit of damage she place in Xavier's mind.

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Outside_85

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@roddy010: Not really, the Cuckcoo's explained why they could bypass Oracle's armor; they are a hivemind, the sum of their power together is greater than when apart (plus I am not sure Oracle, usually a telepath, would actually wear it). Also, in the case of Jean, while I don't know it, wouldn't the Shi'ar come prepared specifically to counter her the same way they came back in ANX?

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dondave

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Jean

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Roddy010

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#20  Edited By Roddy010

@outside_85 said:

@roddy010: Not really, the Cuckcoo's explained why they could bypass Oracle's armor; they are a hivemind, the sum of their power together is greater than when apart (plus I am not sure Oracle, usually a telepath, would actually wear it). Also, in the case of Jean, while I don't know it, wouldn't the Shi'ar come prepared specifically to counter her the same way they came back in ANX?

The hive mind was easily taken out by Emma when their numbers were in the thousands and Jean has already embarassed her. I doubt the sum total of their power was comparable to Jean at this time and IIRC Jean manifested her astral form and still managed to kicked Gladiator's ass.

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LordOfAllHumans

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@roddy010:

yes I knew I didn't have to get involved lol

Jean should win this

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marvelfan1992

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@roddy010 said:
@comic_book_fan said:

@roddy010: jean isn't more powerfl than xavier and nova beat jean the first time they fought.

Xavier has always stated Jean had the power and potential to surpass him, which definitely showed in the New X-men run. Jean's telepathy had advance so far at this point that Xavier couldn't even penetrate her mind without his thoughts turning into ash. She was also able to splinter his consciousness into the minds of mutants across the planet, which was considered telepathically impossible.

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Also Cassandra had prep and ambushed the X-men. She attacked Jean through Scott, taking advantage of their psychic raport causing her mental fatigue but their second encounter Cassandra couldn't even stand against Jean's Phoenix Raptor.

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@outside_85 said:
@stormdriven said:

So that... thing, is actually a woman? I swear I thought it was a man who got a girly name.

If you really wanna know, Cassandra is essentially Charles' twin sister that had to make do with his spare genes to grow a body, which is why she looks like him.

Anyways, Non-Phoenix Jean would loose this, as we saw in the Morrison books, Cassandra was base-line more powerful than Jean (as an example, the Shi'ar showed up wearing mind-armor that stopped Jean's TP, it barely slowed Cassandra down).

That example is PIS at its finest considering the fact that the Cuckoos by passed their psi-armor to attack Oracle. Also considering Jean has bypassed numerous forms of telepathic resistance and immunity(I.e. Emma Frost, Juggernaut) and undid ever bit of damage she place in Xavier's mind.

While I agree that jean would win actually, I don't see how these scans are showings of jean beating cassandra nova. Jean didn't actually do anything to nova there did she? Nova walked into the trap and it bit her in the rear, not really jean beating nova. Am I overlooking something? I don't get how nova "couldn't stand against jean's phoenix raptor" it didn't seem to do anything, nova was hurt by the millions of pieces of charles not jean wasn't she?

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comic_book_fan

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@roddy010:

i am not going to concede yet but I came into this fight thinking it was a stomp for Cassandra nova but you have planted some doubt and the jean taking down gladiator feat was impressive.

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Roddy010

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@marvelfan1992:

While I agree that jean would win actually, I don't see how these scans are showings of jean beating cassandra nova. Jean didn't actually do anything to nova there did she? Nova walked into the trap and it bit her in the rear, not really jean beating nova. Am I overlooking something? I don't get how nova "couldn't stand against jean's phoenix raptor" it didn't seem to do anything, nova was hurt by the millions of pieces of charles not jean wasn't she?

It was Jean who set the trap in the first place. She was the one to splinter Xavier's psyche into Cerebra, undid the damage she placed in his mind, and in the scan I provided Jean protected that mind from Cassandra when she reclaimed it. Cassandra had no host availible to her, evidence that she could not penetrate Jean's mind. Xavier explains it all in the scans I provided above.

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Dextersinister

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#25  Edited By Dextersinister

@roddy010: Jean had the Phoenix as an amp during Morrisons run, this is Jean without..

Casandra would take this. Please no one mention Teeny Jeany who is a separate character for the moment.

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oceanmaster21

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Jean Grey Wins This

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deactivated-5e385ee5c8c54

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@dextersinister: didn't jean only get the phoenix when she was in outter space with logan? IIRC the pheonix raptor is just a manifestation of her psychic powers she has been doing that for years

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Roddy010

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marvelfan1992

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@roddy010: well doesn't the fact that she had to use a trap to defeat cassandra kinda show that cassandra is superior? (like when emma set up a trap for xavier in scott's mine) Im not saying cassandra is stronger , but that is what it makes it look like, regardless of how big a feat setting up the trap is. I get the phoenix raptor part now though thanks

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Roddy010

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@marvelfan1992: In order for Xavier to retain his natural body, Cassandra had to "use" cerebra. The trap wasn't to defeat her but put Charles back into his body. Cassandra needs a host in order to survive, while Jean can exist in astral form, that's just one example of Jean being the superior psi.

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deactivated-5e385ee5c8c54

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should teen jean's feats be considered as feats for regular adult jean too? i mean they are literally the same person, not some clone or alternate reality version

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Roddy010

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@martinceld: yes they should since this is just a younger 616 Jean with the exact powerset.

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deactivated-5e385ee5c8c54

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@roddy010: Agreed. I'm not sure what to think of Xorna/lady xorn/future teen jean's feats though. She did take on a bunch of people and laid the smack down on a Phoenix empowered Quire (unless she could only do that because the phoenix was holding back its power coz it loves jean lol), but we don't know what happens to jean to have made her that powerful or if that is really just the normal growth if her powers are unchecked.

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marvelfan1992

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@roddy010: ahh I see. well I think you have pretty much established that jean>cassandra in a TP battle I doubt anyone will try to refute this

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marvelfan1992

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Koays

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Jean but she would get dragged for a while. Nova is seriously powerful but has an exploitable weakness.

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ursaber

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#37  Edited By ursaber

Jean forever

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adamTRMM

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That would require to reread Morrison's run. And I'm not doing it to myself again.

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helloman

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Jean wins.

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PyroFN

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#40  Edited By PyroFN

Yes, Jean wins definitively. She was the one that planned the whole Xavier thing and saved his behind from losing his body. An expression of how far she has gone since. Unlike Xavier, whom is probably at or slightly dwarfed by Cassandra, Jean has the training and power necessary to deal with her.

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marvelfan1992

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@pyrofn: @koays:

I really wish they werent infected with those nano sentinels that made them super sick and weak, I would have loved to see her just straight up take down cassandra in a tp fight lol. But anyway, the trap made for a nice story

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marvelfan1992

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#42  Edited By marvelfan1992

@pyrofn said:

Yes, Jean wins definitively. She was the one that planned the whole Xavier thing and saved his behind from losing his body. An expression of how far she has gone since. Unlike Xavier, whom is probably at or slightly awarded by Cassandra, Jean has the training and power necessary to deal with her.

Don't get me wrong, Jean is my favorite character and I also favor her in the matchup over cassandra, but I don't think laying a trap is evidence of her being greater than cassandra, much like people dont consider emma beating xavier because she laid a trap in scott's head as a feat of her being > xavier. plus Jean used cerebra to do all of that which greatly boosted her power. But then again she was sick so, i dunno haha. But yeah, still a great feat nonetheless which xavier said should not have been possible at all even with cerebra, so yay jean. I just wish the phoenix wasn't involved in the story coz it is still rather vague on whether she was tapping into it's power/if it was boosting her or if it really just her own power. Both the wiki and comicvine pages say that she was being booster by the phoenix for this :( I personally don't know where I stand on whether she was tapping into the phoenix or not

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LordOfAllHumans

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@marvelfan1992: Proof Jean wasn't tapping the Phoenix was her saying it was only speaking to her and she wasn't letting it get close. More proof is her having to need a ship to get to asteroid M and not being able to just fly or even teleport her and Wolverine back to Earth before he killed her to release the Phoenix. The wiki and this site say she was tapping the Phoenix because people still seem to not be able to accept the fact that Phoenix imagery does not always mean Phoenix force with Jean especially when she and the narrative states it's just her power without restraint and using Phoenix imagery was an homage to Askani Rachel and her taking back her life showing she is powerful with or without the Phoenix.

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PyroFN

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@marvelfan1992: the difference between both of those scenarios is that Emma snuck on a repowered Xavier if I'm not correct. Jean laid an impossible plan successfully for someone who subdued Xavier already. Power wasn't the problem, it was having that much control of multiple pieces of that mind and planting them into each and every single mind in the world, much like when Nate splintered a woman's mind across the multiverse. If it were such an easy feat, Charles would not have claimed it impossible for even an Omega level mutant. Phoenix was her involved in terms of Jeans power. It was proven that she didn't become a host by Beasts scans of her, finding no trace of Phoenix energy and Jean herself after she did become Phoenix from being killed by Wolverine on Asteroid M. The Phoenix was always available, but she never tapped into its power at any moment til she became its host. All that artwork is mere imagery stemming from the revolution era and maybe even slightly before that era. The arising of her tk might have improved the imagery with tk create fire. (You know, from manipulated atoms, but this much is speculation on my part. The real point is that she was confirmed to not have tapped into the Phoenix and was only under the codename and imagery of the raptor, aka self-produced imagery.)

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marvelfan1992

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@lordofallhumans:

my basis was not the phoenix raptor as I do know that it is the form in which she chooses to manifest her power. It' just based from some of the stuff she says and other people say that make me doubt this. But yeah, in general I lean towards her not actually tapping into the power until wolverine killed her

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marvelfan1992

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@pyrofn: oh no, don't get me wrong, I am not trying to discredit how amazing that feat was, I'm just saying that i don't think it should be used as "evidence" or "proof" of her directly beating cassandra because despite how amazing the feat was, it was a trap. So I would not personally say jean can beat cassandra in a tp fight because she was able to lay that trap before, the circumstances can't directly translate to her beating cassandra in a tp fight. But yes, overall her feats do show she would be able to beat cassandra. The artowkr and imagery are not what make me think she was tapping into the phoenix though, i know that is just how she likes to manifest her power as shown many times before, but rather the way they talk about her power in some instances is what makes me doubt that she was not tapping into the phoenix. But yeah in general I do lean towards the notion that she wasn't tapping into the phoenix until wolverine killed her in space

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del_torro

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I really can't believe her using the Phoenix and not being able to breath or fly in space, or dieing in the sun. I believe the Phoenix was there talking to her, but I doubt if she was using its power. New X-men isn't the first time Jean used the Phoenix effect and black word bubbles.

Going with Nova on this one though, Jean needs more showings

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HeirToTheKingdom

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Cassandra.

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marvelfan1992

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I guess we have a chance to get a better look at this due to the events of X-Men Red lol

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del_torro

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Lol, yeah, I Xmen Red was so good. But I doubt Jean and Cassandra will have a direct fight. When they first fought in Morrisons run, Nova set traps in her mind that caught Jean, then when she kept Xavier in her body, Jean had to go through traps to get to him. Finally at the end, Jean set a Trap that captured her and beat her with her psychic raptor.

I'm guessing they'll use traps to fight each other and Cassandra loves mass mind control and violence (like she did with the shiar empire, and and making beak attack beast).

I look forward to seeing how it'll play out (also can't wait to see Fantomexavier interact with Jean).

Xmen Red and Phoenix Resurrection already show Jean using Planet wide Tp without the Phoenix and containing Scotts blast/going to the bottom of the ocean with TK. If they're making the protagonist this powerful already, that means Cassandra Nova is going to get some cool feats and amps too.