JAT4 R2: Giliad vs Joewell (OPEN FOR VOTES)

Welcome!

For this tournament, you pick any two street level characters from fiction, 1 male and 1 female, and imagine what their child will be like, then use them to fight!

Ex.- Aunt May and Arms Fall Off Boy

The offspring would have all the sweetness of Aunt May and All the arm falls off-ness of AFO Boy

This fine day we have

@darkseid1006/@giliad representing

• Beserker (Fate/Zero) vs Shiki Ryougi

vs

@joewell representing

• Soul Eater Medusa (Composite) x F/SN+UBW Berserker

Fight takes place on the Somme, 100 meter starting distance.

Rules

Limitations

The following abilities are prohibited

Other General Rules

Voting Rules

@joewell- here we go, just a quick introduction

Introduction- Berserker (Fate/zero) aka. Lancelot

Berserker the black knight. Sir Lancelot greatest of the knights of the round table after his death he was summoned in the modern age by a Magus to fight in the Fourth Holy Grail War. He was summoned of the Berserker class, sacrificing his rational thought for brutality and shear power. Eventually he was slain by King Arthur when his master could no longer provide the necessary power for him to fight, resulting in the death of both him and his master.

Powers/abilities

Physicals-

• Strength- A rank- Berserker has strength of A rank. While he has not shown a great deal of feats for his strength but he has traded blows with Saber, and actually exceeds her by 1 rank. This puts him in the multi ton range being able to lift and destroy cars and that when trading blows with someone of similar strength the collateral damage has the capability to collapse buildings and tear the ground apart.
  • Speed- A+ rank- Berserker is very fast. He has a speed rank above the majority of other servants making his combat speed in the Mach 2 range and his reactions even quicker being able to pluck FTE hypersonic swords out of the sky and use them to deflect an entire barrage of said weapons instantly after.
    • Durability- A rank- Again he's tough. He wears a very solid armour that can survive a charge from Rider's chariot and has proven to resist G force pressures so intense that the man in the cockpit of the plane was instantly crushed and yet him on the outside and not protected was unscathed.

Skills/Class abilities-

• Protection of The Fairies- Rank A- The ability to call on luck in critical situations. Use is limited to battlefield situations were feats of arms can be performed.
  • Eternal Arms Mastership- Rank A+- Skill unrivalled by any other. By complete unification of mind, body and technique regardless of any mental hinderance he is able to display flawless combat technique
    • Mad Enhancements- Rank C- Berserker has sacrificed his ability for rational and complicated thought for shear rage and enhanced power. Upgrades all abilities except Luck and Mana.

Noble Phantasm-

• For Someone's Glory- A mystical black fog that covers his body, hiding anything that would reveal his identity, preventing anything from seeing his powers and distorting his image so that even seeing his true shape is a difficult accomplishment. Were he not summoned as a Berserker this ability would have allowed him to completely conceal his identity even changing his image to that of another of something completely new.
  • Knight of Honour- Whatever Berserker picks up, provided it can be remotely conceptualised as a weapon, will instantly be transformed into his own demonic noble phantasm. This works regardless of time or era of the weapon and even metal poles can be upgraded to an A rank noble phantasm capable of rivalling even the most powerful Holy Swords. He has upgraded guns into ballistic death machines capable of reducing concrete and metal to rubble in seconds and proving potent enough to push back Saber even though she is usually capable of effortlessly weaving in and out of bullets.
    • Arondight- The indestructible light of the lake. This is Berserker's true noble phantasm. Upon being drawn all other phantasm's are sealed but his power increases drastically to the point were he was able to ragdoll Saber (although she was emotionally unstable but there were multiple statements to suggest that she still never stood a chance against Berserker) and his skill with that weapon is described as being completely incomparable with his previous 'flawless' fighting skills.

Gear-

• He has used multiple different weapons, due to the nature of his ability he is completely unrestricted. This includes a fighter jet, minigun, twin submachine guns and a sniper rifle but in this match he will be using the Twin Submachine Guns as his starting weapons. Unless your up for me taking the jet?

Introduction- Shiki Ryougi

Originally born with a split personality she was subject to death when she was in a near fatal accident. Upon waking up she no longer had a split personality but rather discovered the ability to perceive death, known as the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception or MEoDP for short.

Powers/abilities

• Physicals- She's a master combatant and has feats fighting borderline speedsters. She's for sure meta-human speeds but when compared to what Berserker has to offer she's pretty much void in the physical department.
• Sixth Sense- A type of precog type power. It is merely a disturbingly accurate prediction of future events based on a special sense. Here's an explanation...

  “Don’t group others with the likes of you, Shiki. What you have is a sixth sense that can reel in the future just by hearing and imagining, whereas precognition has both foundation and proof.

• Mystic Eyes of Death Perception- Due to her exposure to death she can now 'perceive' the death of all 'living' objects in the form of lines. If she decides to apply pressure to these lines of death the target will 'die' but theres a bit more to it then that. This is were it gets complicated. Shiki actually has the ability to 'kill' inanimate objects and intangible objects. She has even proven capable of killing concepts under certain circumstances. It essentially allows her to destroy durable and intangible opponents very easily, it also allows her to see what should be invisible such as telekinesis.

Gear-

• Multiple throwing knives, a large dagger and a katana.

now we can get onto the better part of the debate can't we?

Why Berserker Class Ryougi Can Win?

Speed-

This is something that your amalgam cannot beat mine in.

Now without trying to be too arrogant i am probably the worst person of you to debate against not just because my amalgam cancels out your greatest asset but because i have a wealth of knowledge regarding all things type moon- hell my Amalgam is literally a Type Moon amalgam- and i know a lot about all things Fate/zero and Fate/stay night in particular (as well as Hollow and Kaleid + a few others but not as well).

Now i'm going to open up with the big one...

This is what happened when an enraged Gilgamesh let loose on ZeroZerker with his Gate of Babylon phantasm bombardment...

As the King of Conquerors calmly commented, Berserker wasn't taking one step back in front of Archer's fierce attack. On the contrary, when a more powerful Noble Phantasm flew at him, he would abandon his current one to exchange it scrupulously with the new weapon. The violent roaring sound stopped when the last of the sixteen Noble Phantasms fell down. In the hollow silence, there was only Berserker in the middle of the dust coming down. The surroundings, including the storehouses and street lights, were all completely ruined. The black knight had a battle ax in his right hand and a simple sword in his left. All the other Noble Phantasms were scattered at Berserker's feet, or stuck in the rubbles around. Not a single blade had reached the black armor.

Fate/zero act 4

Now i could provide all the evidence to prove that Gilgamesh's weapons fire at Mach 4+ speeds and believe me i have a lot of evidence but we both know what Gilgamesh can do and we both know what he did to Berserker... (i apologise for not providing the actual scans of the VN but i can assure you this is the real deal and i can link you to a place where you can check this out yourself if you wish so that you can validate all my texts?)

When Gilgamesh was trying to kill Herc, he killed Herc. Literally he ripped the guy apart and Herc couldn't even keep a solid defence against Gil's attacks.

To be blunt when Zero Berserker fought an angry Gilgamesh (bear in mind he was laughing when he slaughtered Hercules) Gilgamesh was getting enraged because he was able to evade his onslaught without even moving from his spot but when Hercules fought him from the moment Gilgamesh started attacking Herc failed to evade and counter his attacks and was resultantly torn to shreds- the only thing that kept him alive was his healing factor but i will address that later.

Now i understand that this is an amalgam and that you have Medusa but stacking powers isn't permitted so you will have to choose the higher end feats which are Berserker's and while her vector manipulation compliments the ability wonderfully (something that i will commend you on) the combination of Zerker's incredible reactions and speed mixed with Shiki's precognition will mean that even such a potent ability will fall short.

Skill-

Now both of us know that in the Fate series it is just as much about skill of the combatant as it is raw physical abilities and for a member of the Berserker class Hercules was marvelled at for being able to retain all the skill from his previous life and he does possess skill.

But ZeroZerker wasn't just commended on retaining his skill. He was exceptional because he exceeded everyone else, yes even Saber and Lancer, despite being of the Berserker class...

Mastery of combat arts which reaches a point of being unrivalled in ones era.

By complete unification of mind, body and technique, despite under the influence of any sort of mental hindrance, flawless display of fighting skills is possible.

Fate/zero official stats- Berserker

Berserker isn't just good, he's flawless. Unrivalled in his era... considering he was one of the Knights of the round table and lived in the time when Saber was still alive i think we know how he compares to her. If you want more then trust me there is a lot more but for now i'll keep it to the basics.

Precognition-

I would also like to highlight the skill he gains from Shiki...

Precognition. While it is not flawless or perfect precog it functions in a way similar to minds eye- true (not the fake one Herc has)- but slightly different however it allows her to predict the future fairly accurately through her sixth sense. This will be just another advantage to add to the list and it will real seal the deal regarding any hope of Goliath actually landing a hit on ZerkerRyougi.

Explanation in introduction.

Weapons Advantage-

Now as a servant (similarly to my Berserker) modern weapons could never hope to pose a threat to a servant.

However we both know that Berserker has a certain 'way' with weapons doesn't he?

Berserker could confer the properties of a Noble Phantasm on the weapon in his hand, regardless of its origin or time period. Once it had been upgraded to the category of Noble Phantasm, the difference in power between the two weapon types of ‘sword’ and ‘firearm’ forced Saber into a decisively disadvantageous situation.

Fate/zero act 16

Due to Berserker's Knight of Honour ability he can turn modern weapons into magically enhanced noble phantasms and then even against someone like Saber the difference between guns and swords (even though she possess one of the most powerful of all weapons) is too much for event the best servants to handle especially in a battlefield with no cover to hide behind.

It should be noted that Berserker can turn anything that can be considered a weapon into an A rank noble phantasm and therefore they have the capability to overcome God Hand.

Damage Output- Mystic Eye's of Death Perception-

Now one of your most potent abilities is regeneration from all damage 12 times.

To Shiki this means nothing. If ZerkerRyougi gets a single good hit in then Goliath is done for and will instantly dissipate. That is the power of the MEoDP.

These eyes will also allow my amalgam to counter any vector magics used by literally killing the vectors... want proof? just ask man.

Conclusion

• While your amalgam has heart vector powers and speed that would usually make for an incredibly fast and overwhelming opponent ZerkerRyougi just has this one hands down. ZeroZerker has proven purely with his showings against Gilgamesh- in comparison to Herc's showings- that he has the speed advantage and that isn't even considering how they compare in battle with Saber.
• Any extra advantage that the vector boosts and manipulations grant you is instantly rebutted by ZR's overwhelming speed and precognition abilities.
• Skill wise the mixture of flawless perfection and precog will grant ZR an indisputable advantage in all situations.
• ZR can really demonstrate the difference between the capabilities of a sword and a firearm as Zerker's ability allows for weapons to be used to such lethal degrees that even the greatest of servants can't compete without aid from the environment- something that you do not have on an open battlefield.
• The MEoDP allow for an attack that cannot be blocked by anything you have, ensure that one hit is all that is needed and counter any vector powers you may wish to try and apply
• All in all your amalgam isn't what you'd call 'compatible' with mine. ZR's powers neutralise your greatest assets and Zero Berserker isn't really what someone like Herc would want- even more so when you consider they have fought the same opponents and faired differently.

That's all for now... should be fun

@giliad: Why'd ya stop using your old account?

Introduction

Goliath

This as well, from the wonderful artist @frischdvh!

Goliath is the love child of the Witch Medusa Gorgon and the Servant Berserker (And yes, I know the thought of a 10 foot tall giant mating with a hundred year old witch in a child's body is horrifying and I apologize. ). In a nutshell, Goliath's powers include pretty much maxed out stats, regeneration, and control over vectors and snake familiars, along with some solid skill and a massive sword.

He will be taking the personality of his mother, a cold and calculating fighter with genius intellect and no regards for the lives of her enemies.

But I don't expect you to take all that without proof, so allow me to go into detail!

• Strength:
  • Sends a car flying.
  • Recks through multiple trees,shatters a diamond strength weapon, and sends a superhuman flying hundreds of meters.
  • Can "destroy a house or two with a single blow."
  • Deflects mansion-busting attacks. 2
• Speed:
  • Is "like a whirlwind."
  • Moves faster than Saber. This same character can overwhelm someone who can trade a hundred blows a second and casually breaks the sound barrier.
  • Runs faster than 50 kilometers per hour.2.
• Durability/Regeneration:
  • Shrugs off house busting arrows. 2
  • No sells this.
  • Will not stop fighting unless he is physically unable.
  • Non-fatal attacks (That includes lost limbs and stuff.) heal after a couple minutes.
  • Has 12 lives.
• Senses:
  • Ignores all mental trickery.
  • Has a spidey-sense like instinct that nullifies sneak attacks.
• Vector Magic: A type of magic gained from his mother that will allow Goliath to do things such as make arrow like constructs and change the direction of things.
  • Vector Plate. With this she can shift the direction of whatever is overtop of it. This is powerful enough to send Stein through stone. These can repel attacks or opponents or launch herself. (Medusa vs Stein)
  • Vector Arrow. An attack where she summons dozens to hundreds of arrow like constructs that can tear a human to spreads and even fatally injured Crona(Medusa vs Crona), who can tank house busting attacks. These can be summons from behind her or from beneath her target. (Medusa vs Crona)
  • Vector Storm. Similar to Vector Arrow, but defensive. Instead of targetting someone, they come from beneath her and cut up anything close.
  • Vector Boost: Increases the striking power of an attack.
  • Vector Compress: Surrounds and crushes the opponents with vector arrows.
• Full Fights and Skill:
  • Medusa vs Stein (To 20:00) Part 2 (To 9:30), an incredibly skilled combat instructor that can take on 3 of a school made for fightings best at once.
  • Medusa in a weakened body vs Maka, Crona, and Marie.
  • Berserker vs Saber and Archer
• Weapon:
  • Large Stone Axe-Sword that will be enhanced with Vectors in this fight.

Now of course there's more, but that should be enough for the first post. Let's move on to the fight itself!

The Fight

Counters

To be blunt when Zero Berserker fought an angry Gilgamesh (bear in mind he was laughing when he slaughtered Hercules) Gilgamesh was getting enraged because he was able to evade his onslaught without even moving from his spot but when Hercules fought him from the moment Gilgamesh started attacking Herc failed to evade and counter his attacks and was resultantly torn to shreds- the only thing that kept him alive was his healing factor but i will address that later.

Hey! Hey! Context!

There are several things that make this incorrect.

1. Gil was going waayy harder on UBWZerker. Just look at the quotes you post. Against Zero, he fired 16. Against UBW, he used "infinate" that came "like gushing water." It clear a huge amount more was used against my Berserker. If Gil ever would have went that serious against Lancelot, he would have been demolished.
2. Herc was protecting Illya during his entire fight. He never got to go all out because he was constantly defending another. Gilgamesh directly states if that wasn't the case Herc would have a chance of winning, something ZeroZerker never had at all.
3. Herc was able to block many of Gilgamesh's projectiles too. Look when he was guarding Illya in the video linked above. He was able to block at least what Lancelot blocked, while protecting someone nonetheless. All in all he is just impressive in the speed catagory as your character and would be able to easily keep up on physicals alone.
4. There's also Vectors. These will boost Goliath to speeds even your amalgam can not keep up with.

Now both of us know that in the Fate series it is just as much about skill of the combatant as it is raw physical abilities and for a member of the Berserker class Hercules was marvelled at for being able to retain all the skill from his previous life and he does possess skill.

But ZeroZerker wasn't just commended on retaining his skill. He was exceptional because he exceeded everyone else, yes even Saber and Lancer, despite being of the Berserker class...

Berserker isn't just good, he's flawless. Unrivalled in his era... considering he was one of the Knights of the round table and lived in the time when Saber was still alive i think we know how he compares to her. If you want more then trust me there is a lot more but for now i'll keep it to the basics.

This isn't a factor that'll matter too much. Look at it like this-Saber can keep up with (And even defeat.) ZeroZerker, and yet Herc can beat her up close. So while it may be claimed Lancelot is the best, Herc has the feats to prove he can keep up.

I would also like to highlight the skill he gains from Shiki...

Precognition. While it is not flawless or perfect precog it functions in a way similar to minds eye- true (not the fake one Herc has)- but slightly different however it allows her to predict the future fairly accurately through her sixth sense. This will be just another advantage to add to the list and it will real seal the deal regarding any hope of Goliath actually landing a hit on ZerkerRyougi.

Explanation in introduction.

Just because your amalgam can see what's gonna happen, doesn't necessary mean he can defend against it.

I'd like to see some kind of proof showing this off a little better, if it's not too much to ask.

Now as a servant (similarly to my Berserker) modern weapons could never hope to pose a threat to a servant.

However we both know that Berserker has a certain 'way' with weapons doesn't he?

Berserker could confer the properties of a Noble Phantasm on the weapon in his hand, regardless of its origin or time period. Once it had been upgraded to the category of Noble Phantasm, the difference in power between the two weapon types of ‘sword’ and ‘firearm’ forced Saber into a decisively disadvantageous situation.

Fate/zero act 16

Due to Berserker's Knight of Honour ability he can turn modern weapons into magically enhanced noble phantasms and then even against someone like Saber the difference between guns and swords (even though she possess one of the most powerful of all weapons) is too much for event the best servants to handle especially in a battlefield with no cover to hide behind.

It should be noted that Berserker can turn anything that can be considered a weapon into an A rank noble phantasm and therefore they have the capability to overcome God Hand.

Nothing he has shown to rank up has been able to outshine what Archer did-

And Berserker no-selled that. So unless you wanna show me something a little better, your amalgam isn't doing anything.

Now one of your most potent abilities is regeneration from all damage 12 times.

To Shiki this means nothing. If ZerkerRyougi gets a single good hit in then Goliath is done for and will instantly dissipate. That is the power of the MEoDP.

These eyes will also allow my amalgam to counter any vector magics used by literally killing the vectors... want proof? just ask man.

Yea, proof for all of that please.

• While your amalgam has heart vector powers and speed that would usually make for an incredibly fast and overwhelming opponent ZerkerRyougi just has this one hands down. ZeroZerker has proven purely with his showings against Gilgamesh- in comparison to Herc's showings- that he has the speed advantage and that isn't even considering how they compare in battle with Saber.
• Any extra advantage that the vector boosts and manipulations grant you is instantly rebutted by ZR's overwhelming speed and precognition abilities.
• Skill wise the mixture of flawless perfection and precog will grant ZR an indisputable advantage in all situations.
• ZR can really demonstrate the difference between the capabilities of a sword and a firearm as Zerker's ability allows for weapons to be used to such lethal degrees that even the greatest of servants can't compete without aid from the environment- something that you do not have on an open battlefield.
• The MEoDP allow for an attack that cannot be blocked by anything you have, ensure that one hit is all that is needed and counter any vector powers you may wish to try and apply
• All in all your amalgam isn't what you'd call 'compatible' with mine. ZR's powers neutralise your greatest assets and Zero Berserker isn't really what someone like Herc would want- even more so when you consider they have fought the same opponents and faired differently.

• I disagree wholeheartedly. When looking at the circumstances, we can actually tell Herc did better than Lancelot against Gilgamesh.
• Even if you could claim your amalgam's speed is better, there is no way you could call it overwhelming. Even just Herc could hang, but the vectors will make this nearly meaningless.
• Goliath can keep up. Skill won't matter much anyways when your every move is being repled though.
• That weaponry takes multiple shots to go through stone. UBW Berserker took a mini nuke to the face. It isn't gonna leave a mark.
• Proooof! And even if it is true, it can still be dodged or repelled.
• Meh. We'll see.

How It'll Go

1. The fight begins like any other. The opponents charge and trade a quick close combat burst. Neither will be completely outclassed and it'll eventually break.
2. Now here's where things get interesting. Goliath will now whip out his vectors granted from mommy Medusa. These can be used in countless ways, but I'll just list some of the major ones now.
   1. The main one will be simply ragdolling and throwing ZR off it's game with plates. He charges at Goliath? Get's thrown back. Tries to swing? Get's repled. Blocking an attack? Well that can just be moved out the way. This will constantly be used to screw with ZR, putting him at a severe disadvantage.
   2. Vector Arrow! You saw what they could do in my original post. Goliath will be able to create hundreds of these at once to attack at all angles simultaneously. Even with your combo's speed and skill, he won't be able to block hundreds of attack from all angles at once. Especially not while Goliath is attacking him as well. And before you say he can shrug these off, someone who could rip out a chunk of the Moon and is renown for their durability couldn't stop being pierced.
   3. Goliath could also just use Vector Ball. Surround the enemy in vectors and keep squeezing until they're nothing but a small little ball.
3. There are some other, but those are the biggest ones that I'm not sure how ZR will counter. Any of those and the opponent should be down for the count. But, contingency plans never hurt. Let's say Berserker does get hit and is for some reason hurt, well obviously we have the healing to fall back on. Then the 12 lives. But according to you, those will be bypassed. While I doubt this, I can't just ignore it. So, assuming your amalgam can one shot, it won't be able just then. Kill the body? Fine. Get rained upon by thousands of snakes (Stein fight.)! Oh, what are a bunch of snakes gonna do, you ask? Nothing but provide Goliath with a medium to resurrect himself with! Ya see, Medusa can transfer her soul to one of the snakes inside of her body after she's been "killed". This snake can into posses a human! And since there are a bunch of humans here, you're going to have to kill me a looottt of times before I go down. I count 13+. That, times my Twelve Lives and incredible regeneration, means I'm functionally immortal! I don't win the first time? Take a body and try again. The second? Heck, round 3. You'll be worn down eventually, then you'll perish and Goliath will take the win. It's even possible to take over ZR's body! Even if you can one shot, Goliath still gets dozens of chances.

Balls in your table, bro. Told you I wouldn't be completely outclassed.

@joewell: This should be fun...

Round 2- Counters/Rebuttals

1. Speed/Gilgamesh Comparison-

There seems to be a bit of confusion here... (for connivance i will repost the feat)

Infinite is simply a description of Gilgamesh's Noble Phantasm's rather than an actual number and it is something that was referenced throughout the Fate/stay night. To use it to gauge the difference in effort or quantity of noble phantasms isn't really credible.

Now anyway what i wanted to stress was that Gilgamesh sends out his attack and straight away they repel Berserker's sword and and rip him apart. This then proceeds to happen 8 times repeatedly. You might say that Gilgamesh used more weapons on Hercules but that was purely because Hercules could tank them and keep on moving not because he was fast enough to evade and repel them.

To further back this point lets look at what happened when Gilgamesh did only use a relatively small amount of noble phantasms...

1. https://youtu.be/3bc0yHvomjo?t=200
2. https://youtu.be/3bc0yHvomjo?t=275

Now lets take a look at them shall we?

Instance 1- Gilgamesh fires his noble phantasms and Hercules is instantly torn apart, granted this was still a greater number than what was fired at ZeroZerker however ZeroZerker was never once even straining himself and didn't even move from the spot so he was clearly comfortable yet if you slow the video to 0.5 speed it becomes clear that Hercules never managed to react to single one of Gilgamesh's projectiles.

Instance 2- Gilgamesh again does the same however this time he only fires 4 noble phantasms. Yet 2 of them find direct hits on Berserker. Hercules only managed to reply a mere 2 Phantasms.

Arguing for Hercules taking a speed advantage or to even claim they are equal is incorrect.... even by official Fate/zero and Fate/stay night stats ZeroZerker is ranked higher with ZeroZerker at an A+ and Hercules is only ranked at an A if you want i could also provide evidence for this from "Fate/zero Material" as unfortunately a translated stat sheet was never given out for ZeroZerker due to his ability.

I think that i have provided substantial evidence to suggest that Hercules cannot compare with ZeroZerker when it comes to speed.

Now you do have something with the vectors i'll give you that but we'll move onto that in later on in the post.

2. Skill, It is a Major Factor-

Saber never defeated ZZerker.

In their first confrontation ZZerker overpowered her with an iron pole and in their second well...

She couldn’t move; she had reached her limit. There was no way to defend against the next attack.

Perhaps this was the only salvation.

Since he was thus unwilling, thus filled with hatred—in that case, apart from using her body to receive the sharp sword that he swung, there was no other method of recompense.

At the exact moment that Saber decided to completely abandon resistance—suddenly, Berserker stopped moving.

Fate/zero act 16 part 7

ZeroZerker left Saber limp on the floor with no hope of defending before his master died and he was no longer provided with energy. This is not a win. Both times they have fought Berserker has won and even Saber admitted that she didn't stand a chance against Berserker.

Skill is a major factor in Fate battles. It is the reason Archer is able to fight Lancer despite the overwhelming disadvantage in physicals- admittedly he does lose but the fact he can last as long as he does is due to combat skill that he gained from training and extensive experience...

Gallery

Skill is everything- even though Lancer has the speed advantage against Saber when they fought Saber was still able to overwhelm him with her attacks because she is simply more skilled.

And just to show you how much more skilled ZeroZerker is than any other servant...

It was not Berserker’s vigor that pressed Saber down, but his intensely fierce barrage gave Saber no way to retaliate. No matter how bad the wound on Saber’s hand might be, as the strongest Servant Saber didn’t even have a chance to strike back. On top of that, although Berserker’s weapons were strengthened with prana, they were still twisted remains of an iron pole.

Berserker is definitely not a simple mad dog. The Heroic Spirit that became Berserker is a master warrior with amazing skills that even after his Mad Enhancement, he still possessed such an extraordinary ability.

"You... Just who are you?!"

Of course, the black knight ignored Saber’s question, but threw the iron pole following his piercing vigor.

The strike could be called as an absolutely exceptional feat. The ferocity of the strike appeared to hit Saber’s short stature and –

Fate/zero act 4 part 3

Although Saber was only able to use 1 hand- even with one hand she was still able to compare with Lancer who is one of the fastest Servants around and extremely skilled- it does make reference to how Saber even regardless of the severity of the injury Saber still wouldn't have been able to find the time to attack back. He is also referred to as a warrior of amazing skill and exceptional. He is also able of accomplishing exceptional feats that Saber can't counter. This is all using an iron pole as a weapon as oppose to a spear which would be the preferred alternative.

ZeroZerker's ability sets him aside from all other servants skill wise- at least as far as Stay/Night and Zero go.

3. Precognition-

I agree however mixed with ZZerker's already superior speed- bear in mind he has the ability to comfortably react to Mach 4+ projectiles and overwhelm Supersonic combatants with relative ease- it is something that will give ZerkerRyougi a decisive advantage.

Well precognition is not the right word... rather Pseudo-precog or simply an aspect of her higher awareness that she gained...

In other words, it seems my senses have “awakened” to a higher level of perception, but it’s all technical magical gobbledygook that I couldn’t care less to understand.

What was said- what i posted in the intro- was in response to a question about wether she just had good instincts...

“The hell? If you can know even without a reason, then that’s not seeing the future. Isn’t that just instinct?”

Even I can do that, said Employee’s Friend A, and Aozaki Touko smiled bitterly at her.

“Don’t group others with the likes of you, Shiki. What you have is a sixth sense that can reel in the future just by hearing and imagining, whereas precognition has both foundation and proof.

She claimed she could see the future and when questioned Aozaki explained how she can make an accurate prediction of the future- subconsciously- using a sixth sense that can imagine the future.

This allows her to fight those that she can not properly perceive...

And even to Shiki’s trained eyes, the man moved much too fast for Shiki to reliably track.

And as soon as the distance between them was nearing a close, his pattern of movement changed. With a potent force, his legs folded and he jumped, all of it happening so fast that it seemed like an explosion of strength. And suddenly he was in the air, knife held pointed, then thrust with frightening accuracy at Shiki’s head.

A tiny glint in the darkness, and a moment later, the keening sound of steel upon steel. Another instant with a grating noise, as the murderer’s blade makes contact with Shiki’s own cross-guard. And in that instant, as both knives embraced each other like brothers, both combatant’s glances fell to each other’s eyes. Shiki, with narrowed eyes of hostility, and the murderer’s, with widened eyes replete with joy, and then the moment was quickly over.

and react to attacks before they happen, allowing her to dodge a point blank explosion despite not being fast enough to do so...

All in all if you are going to claim you take a speed advantage due to vector powers then this can adequately counter that should i fail to convince others that you do not in reality possess a speed advantage- at least not in combat or reactions (travel speed most likely you do)- as this has allowed her to create accurate predictions of the future and allowed her to fight opponents considerably faster than herself.

4. Durability Misconceptions-

There is a lot of context behind this feat... or not really context but explanations.

If Berserker is so durable then why can Saber hurt him with Excalibur? that is just a sword that doesn't produce half the damage that Archer's attack could. Also why do Gilgamesh's weapons do damage even though they don't produce the same effects either?

It's all due to Berserker's ability...

Gallery

Hercules has a natural ability that instantly just disregards any noble phantasm that is not an A rank attack. Even if it hit with more force than a nuke if it was below rank A then it would never do anything to him (although i can't imagine a nuke level noble phantasm being lower than A rank). That is why Berserker is capable of tanking that but not the Gate of Babylon or Excalibur.

Caladbolg II however (the weapon used there) is not A rank as it is a projection of a noble phantasm and therefore is never on par with the original and therefore it is not able to hurt Hercules.

ZeroZerker however transforms his weapons into A rank phantasms, equal to the rank of the ability that transforms them, and therefore this conceptual defence is no longer effective on ZZerker's attacks. Therefore ZZerker can use his twin machine guns to literally blow Berserker apart as the advantage using a firearm- when enhanced- compared to a sword is indisputable as proven when it was used to pin down Saber- that was in an area with cover this is in an open battlefield.

Another thing to address is the difference between piercing and blunt force/blast durability. Excalibur has proven capable of slashing Hercules and damaging him along with every one of Gilgamesh's A rank projectiles and that is because they are more concentrated attacks. In the Visual Novels Hercules actually did care about Archer's attack and rather than tanking the full head on attack he deflected the attack and survived the residual explosion as oppose to the direct contact with the arrow. Lancelot's bullets have infinitely more piercing power than an explosion and have a rank A meaning the God Hand ability will not suffice therefore ZerkerRyougi's twin sub-machine guns do have the capability to harm Herc- in the novel it was stated that guns are far superior to swords once upgraded to the rank of noble phantasm.

5. Mystic Eyes of Death Perception-

Sure thing...

And then, finally, finally, my Eyes look at her. And there they are. One on each leg, one on her back, a little one in her left chest. I can see the lines, separating her body into little sections. The one in her chest is likely the best target. Hitting that’d mean instant death. This woman could be some sort of image, some delusion, or a ghost. But in the end it doesn’t matter. Because with my Eyes, even gods can die.

Here is a good description of Shiki's eyes. She sees lines of death on everything- with 1 or 2 exceptions that i can think of but even then there was context and in one scenario she saw them in the end- wether it be a delusion, image (as in not actually tangible or there) or ghost if she hits the line the target will 'Die'. It is the ability to perceive the end of anything and then bring about that end...

“There’s a flaw for everything in the world,” says Shiki. “Air, intent, and even time. Humans need not even be said. If there’s a beginning for everything, then there’s also an end. My Eyes see that end, the death of everything. And once I see that death, all anything needs is a single, light push, that sends it barreling off into entropy. Magic, just like yours.” With those sinister Eyes, Shiki glares at Fujino. “That’s why, if there really was a God, he would fall just as easily against me.”

If it has a beginning it has an end and she sees that end (commonly referred to as death) and by hitting the line brings it about.

Hercules and the vectors all have an end to them and therefore ZerkerRyougi can kill them that way.

This is an attack that cannot be defended from and can counter a lot of things- vectors included.

To Recap-

• I disagree wholeheartedly. When looking at the circumstances, we can actually tell Herc did better than Lancelot against Gilgamesh.
• Even if you could claim your amalgam's speed is better, there is no way you could call it overwhelming. Even just Herc could hang, but the vectors will make this nearly meaningless.
• Goliath can keep up. Skill won't matter much anyways when your every move is being repled though.
• That weaponry takes multiple shots to go through stone. UBW Berserker took a mini nuke to the face. It isn't gonna leave a mark.
• Proooof! And even if it is true, it can still be dodged or repelled.

• I think i have explained in enough detail everything regarding Lancelot and Herc vs Gilgamesh. Also the reason i was saying ZeroZerker was because i thought it might be spoilers but i guess the likelihood of someone not knowing this who reads this debate is pretty slim so from now on i think i may use his real name.
• When you compare who has the better reactions it is clear that Lancelot takes this and while the vectors do make a difference when faced with a combination of skill (which is a major factor and i think i proved that), speed and precog-ish will mean that Lancelot can indeed overwhelm Goliath- oh and there is still the big trump card that has yet to be played.
• I addressed that this is not the case- also that is only in the anime adaption and in the original novel a round was compared to a missile and it was able to reduce a truck to metal shavings in seconds. Regardless it can harm Berserker and that will be a big advantage as proven with Lancelot vs Saber.
• it can still be dodged and repelled. But as it stands regarding ZerkerRyougi and it's superior skill and speed (mixed with precog) getting a hit in on Goliath is not going to be that hard to do especially if the gun is used to put him down once and then they attack while he's down- bear in mind it is not instantaneous when he revives.

Likely Outcome of The Battle

1. The fight begins like any other. The opponents charge and trade a quick close combat burst. Neither will be completely outclassed and it'll eventually break.

Straight away i cannot agree with this.

ZerkerRyougi's weapon advantage means that Goliath will be torn to shreds at the get go. In the event of a CQC battle ZerkerRyougi's speed and skill advantage would instantly become relevant and using a katana and a sub-machine gun would prove fatal to Goliath who simply cannot stand up to the effectiveness of modern weaponry- when in the hands of ZRyougi- with any real chance of success.

It is far more likely that ZRyougi will use the firearm advantage to pin down and destroy Goliath then come in to finish him off with a death strike. Even in CQC ZRyougi still possess the firearm advantage, speed advantage, skill advantage and of course procog and that is a combination that Goliath will just not be able to overcome. Especially when you consider the fact that all ZRyougi needs is 1 hit.

1. The main one will be simply ragdolling and throwing ZR off it's game with plates. He charges at Goliath? Get's thrown back. Tries to swing? Get's repled. Blocking an attack? Well that can just be moved out the way. This will constantly be used to screw with ZR, putting him at a severe disadvantage.

The effectiveness of an attack like this is not as you make it.

First there is the speed problem that i keep stating. It would be difficult for Goliath to effectively incorporate these plates in combat due to ZRyougi constantly keeping him on the ropes and ZRyougi can just as easily dissipate the vector plates with death cuts.

Point being the vector plates can be negated by ZRyougi and in a combat situation the application will be extremely difficult when you consider ZRyougi's advantages and the fact that procog means Goliath will be very hard pressed to catch ZRyougi unaware with them. It will be a hinderance but it is not enough to tip the scales in your favour as it's CQC applications are not too easy to use against ZRyougi but even when applied precog, speed and mystic eyes will allow ZRyougi to nullify them.

The best combat application that i know of for the plates is this...

Gallery

And while it may increase Goliath's speed in multiple linear directions an attack like this would not be enough to overcome the reactions of ZRyougi and especially not with future prediction. Also to actually use this in the midst of CQC is something that i don't believe has been done (at least not to my knowledge) and definitely not proven useful against someone with the skill and speed of ZRyougi so this is just stressing my point that the CQC applications are limited.

I'm not going to lie these things are potent. However they don't have the necessary speed to really take out ZRyougi.

Also i don't believe that attacking from all directions at once is an option- even if it is ZRyougi can still just destroy them and create a gap for himself- because i believe that Medusa's vector arrows originate from her body and therefore they will be traveling from a single point. To attack from all directions would mean a few of them would have to move around ZRyougi and attack from the back while others flanked him along the sides and more attacked from the front. ZRyougi is too fast to allow this to happen and before it could he would have moved position and escaped. To fully surround ZRyougi he would need to remain stationary while the attack came in however he would always be on the move and countering with his own ranged firearm.

Also these arrows are only really useful at a range and even then ZRyougi still has the firearms that can attack Goliath so like you said the if the battle started relatively close quarters then it would be difficult to use them and if you try and make distance ZRyougi can gladly return the favour with his own enhanced ranged weapons.

The mystic eyes could be used to kill the vectors and escape, this one is pretty easy.

This would be great if the mystic eyes didn't kill you. It doesn't just kill the body it literally ends the existence of the target- soul and all. You can't escape this by transferring a consciousness.

Also Shiki can kill ghosts, images and delusions even though non of them are tangible and 2 are just in someones mind so even if you can prove that somehow the attack wouldn't kill you then she could just as simply attack the soul.

Something Not Yet Considered

If it does turn out to be more difficult than expected then ZRyougi would use his true noble phantasm...

Arondight!

This sword is Lancelot's real weapon and once drawn he revives a boost in all stats and his skill is incomparable with what he has displayed formerly...

she should be going to save Irisviel; they had made a vow to hold up the Grail together. She could not lower her head now; she knew this clearly in her heart.

But she could not win. Facing that man, that sword, there was no way to obtain victory.

Fate/zero act 16 part 7

Saber acknowledges that it is beyond her capability to defeat Lancelot when he is wielding Arondight.

Berserker constantly rebuked Saber, who was unable to counterattack and could only defend. At this point he had already completely unleashed his true ability, and his skill with the sword was completely incomparable with his previous level. Even if Saber had been uninjured right now, she might not have been able to withstand that strong momentum.

But in the face of her opponent’s ferocious attack, and the sense of pain in her hands and legs that had long since become numb, Saber remained unmoved. The enemy’s strong prowess that was many times greater than her own, and his merciless attack, were gradually causing her spirit to crumble.

"ditto"

The enemy (Berserker) had fighting prowess greater than her own. NOTE- the reference to injuries is injuries that she suffered fighting Berserker not from anyone else.

His skill with his sword was completely incomparable with his previous level- it is his true weapon after all.

While Saber was emotionally unstable because of her connection with Lancelot she knew that she could not defeat Berserker when he was wielding his true weapon and he clearly exceeded her. I mean she couldn't even counter attack and could barely block without getting injured. Berserker with his own weapon is something that is beyond monstrous.

You have argued that there isn't a significant difference in stats between ZerkerRyougi and Goliath and while i disagree the power of ZRyougi using Arondight is something that Goliath does not have the capability to match and considering the difference in performance between Herc vs Saber and Lancelot vs Saber i think that it is evident Hercules is not on Lancelot's level.

This is even more impressive when you realise that Saber was not as powerful in Fate/stay night as she was in Fate/zero because Shirou wasn't half the master that Irisviel was...

and then when she was with Kiritsugu Emiya... (as you can see under Shirou Saber was not as powerful as she was under Kiritsugu so Lancelot's feats against Saber are more impressive than Hercules)

To Conclude

• ZRyougi has the clear speed advantage based on the showings against the Gate of Babylon. Hercules has been torn apart time and time again by the projectiles without performing as well as Lancelot did and certainly under extreme strain when doing so however Lancelot wasn't pushed back a single step and simply plucked the weapons out of the air and used them flawlessly.
• Skill is incredibly important and it is decisive in battles proven time and time again in Fate/stay night when skilled combatants have been able to match and overcome the physically superior opponent e.g. Assassin was able to match Saber, Saber was able to overwhelm Lancer, Archer was able to go toe to toe with Lancer for a good amount of time. I think it is clear that Zero Berserker hold the skill advantage against virtually every Fate Servant and Hercules is no exception.
• Pseudo-Precognition is incredibly potent when mixed with Zerker's skill and speed as it will not only allow knowledge on the attack prior to it happening but the capability to act upon it.
• I feel i addressed why ZRyougi's weapons will be able to damage Goliath as they can overcome Hercules noble phantasm that protects against anything less than A rank.
• The Mystic Eyes can in fact one shot Goliath and can counter vectors.
• Chances are that the battle will be over before when they engage in CQC or if they do as the twin sub-machine guns could tear up Goliath prior and ZRyougi could swoop in and take Goliath out. However even in a CQC battle the mix between firearms and blades and the combat capability to match and even outperform Goliath will mean that ZRougi really does just possess an advantage and has the capability to end the fight fairly quickly.
• If the fight proves more prolonged and tiring than expected ZRyougi would draw Arondight and in that event Goliath would truly be outclassed in virtually every way and wouldn't really have much of a chance.
• If it were not for ZRyougi's ability to end the fight with one hit i wouldn't be backing myself. I know Hercules well and i know that his ability is nigh impossible to deal with it just so happens that i have that magic combination that make ZerkerRyougi the perfect counter to Goliath.

Told you I wouldn't be completely outclassed.

Man this is great. Your a lot better than i expected- i hope i haven't bitten of more than i can chew here :p

@giliad I got the notification for your post, but it isn't here. What happened?

It seems like your first post is gone too.

apparently i got banned for having an alt... i'm talking it over with the mods now

@darkseid1006: Darn. Good luck bro.

thanks, also i see that your the swordsman gym instructor?

@darkseid1006: I am!

if it turns out that i cannot recover my post then i will just had to reconstruct the original based on what you quoted and then i will recreate my new one, i understand that it is afar from ideal but i don't see much else i can do about it.

@joewell: are my posts back or no?

@giliad: Nope

apparently it may take until monday for them to return

Bump, they'reback!

@giliad: Glad everything worked out. Now I can get to countering this.

Counters-Round 2

Speed and Gilgamesh

Skill

"Precog"

Durability

Mystic Eyes

Recap

And because of computer problems, I'm going to end this post here. Sorry to cut it short, but it's better than losing it all. The rest is all just recap, plus Arodinite. But that doesn't do anything but boost his stats, which won't help him with vector hax.

@joewell: sorry only just saw your post, man this is gold... i love Fate debates (well you threw in some Soul Eater but still :P)

Can't wait to get this wrapped up and read back though it, good job

@giliad: @joewell: Think you guys can wrap up by Saturday night? Great stuff!

definitely give it a try

@joewell:okay lets get this over with shall we? i feel that this is going to be ending soon so lets make it great...

Round 3- Counters/Rebuttals

Gilgamesh & Speed

Gilgamesh Feats Comparison-

Speed-

Here i am going to address points about speed that are not related to comparisons between their respective performances against Gilgamesh.

Vs Saber-

Now lets take a look at Hercules battle with Saber...

• https://youtu.be/E1PmzgnZROo

Now don't get me wrong Herc would have and was overpowering Saber (till she took it into the graveyard of course and gained the tactical advantage) but when compared to how Lancelot dealt with Saber...

• https://youtu.be/bOL1wiBeKHs

Watch from beginning to 1:03 for instance i am referring to- anime adaption of the battle, Lancelot is able to overwhelm Saber using nothing but an enhanced pole that he picked up of the floor in at most 10 moves.

It was not Berserker’s vigor that pressed Saber down, but his intensely fierce barrage gave Saber no way to retaliate. No matter how bad the wound on Saber’s hand might be, as the strongest Servant Saber didn’t even have a chance to strike back. On top of that, although Berserker’s weapons were strengthened with prana, they were still twisted remains of an iron pole.

Berserker is definitely not a simple mad dog. The Heroic Spirit that became Berserker is a master warrior with amazing skills that even after his Mad Enhancement, he still possessed such an extraordinary ability.

"You... Just who are you?!"

Of course, the black knight ignored Saber’s question, but threw the iron pole following his piercing vigor.

The strike could be called as an absolutely exceptional feat. The ferocity of the strike appeared to hit Saber’s short stature and –

Fate/zero Act 4

And the original novel version, while Saber did have a damaged arm (to be fair even with that arm she was able to fight Lancer 1v1) it acknowledges that regardless of the wound she would still have no way of retaliating and that Berserker's barrage of attacks would overwhelm her. NOTE- the blow would have killed her had Lancelot not have intervened.

It is important to acknowledge that this is not just purely a speed feat but a mixture of speed and skill and just how potent it can be.

And again, i will just repost these 2 to make it easier for viewers to see, i would like to point out that Saber in Fate/zero was a lot faster than Saber in Stay/night (due to a poor master) so this feat is all the more impressive and really shows just how much the combination of skill and speed means in a battle and just why Lancelot really does outclass Hercules in combat and just why he will be able to defeat him (considering all he needs is a single attack)-

Gallery

Look at the difference, Saber in Zero was 2 entire ranks faster than Stay/night and yet is Stay she was still able to fight Hercules and hold her own for a long time yet in Zero she was overpowered quickly and it was stated that without injuries she would not fair much better (although likelihood is she would have been able to put up more of a fight, but as stated throughout the novel Lancelot physically surpassed Saber all along and that his attacks were simply too much for her)

Bottom line is Lancelot was able to accomplish what Herc did against a faster and more powerful Saber. He is simply the better combatant and his mix of speed and skill will overwhelm Herc in a similar fashion to how it did to Saber.

Skill/Combat/Battle/Precognition/Eyes

I'm going to address all the following in one...

1.

2.

3.

Precognition, Speed, Skill and Weaponry will make the difference and it does change everything.

You say that my amalgam will be constantly tossed around by the vector plates and that even if she can see what is going to happen before it appears it won't make a difference but it really will.

These vector plates are not unavoidable in fact they can be easily avoided by simply not being above them. ZRyougi will know where they will appear and can therefore move away from that space. Essentially ZRyougi does not even need to cut the plates but rather just leap around them and continue the battle. Also the plates do not act instantly either...

Stein was caught above the arrow yet he was still able to see it and acknowledge it the problem was he couldn't do anything about it. ZRougi is fast enough to get rid of the plate in this time no trouble and add that to the fact that he can see it before it happens it makes it all the easier to do.

Also i don't feel you countered the application point that i addressed. When faced against ZRyougi's monstrous and relentless assault (either with guns or CQC weapons), something that Saber herself has been overwhelmed by, i don't believe that Goliath will be able to find the time to constantly use the vector plates while simultaneously trying to survive against his attack. ZRyougi's speed and skill advantage (include precog) will mean that Goliath will never have a free opportunity and that even the slightest hesitation means death and while he may get a few plates out to fight it will not be sufficient amounts and at no point will he ever be able to use them to the degrees that are possible simply because he will have his hands full with one task.

Also to address your point about how you don't see guns being effective as they didn't yield results against Saber...

Berserker could confer the properties of a Noble Phantasm on the weapon in his hand, regardless of its origin or time period. Once it had been upgraded to the category of Noble Phantasm, the difference in power between the two weapon types of ‘sword’ and ‘firearm’ forced Saber into a decisively disadvantageous situation.

Because the building's construction was not yet finished, a large number of paint cans were piled in one corner of the parking lot. One of the stray bullets struck them, and the calcined bullet caused the solvent to explode. The underground darkness was dissipated by red lotuses of flame.

Saber was so restricted by the curtain of bullets that she could not close in; she looked around in search of a method by which she could return from certain defeat. Then, she saw a small truck parked in a lot at the corner of the car park.

“— That’s it!”

Accepting the risk that she could be forced into the corner with no route of retreat, Saber dashed toward the vehicle she had set her eyes on. Berserker pursued her as she fled, at the same time shooting at random with the firearms in his hands. Saber made a ferocious step that narrowly preceded the howling bullets, dashing to the back of the truck. She brandished the flat of her blade upward, flinging the structure of the vehicle into the air.

Fate/zero Act 16

Lancelot was overpowering and forcing Saber back and she couldn't even hope to attack him head on actually i think "Certain Defeat" was the phrase used, in fact the only reason she even survived was because there was cover for her to utilise and that at one point Lancelot's vision was obscured. Here Goliath does not have that luxury, rather the opposite. Goliath is in an open field with no cover and while vector plates can deflect some bullets against sustained fire from a moving ZRyougi who can predict your movements and actions this will eventually overwhelm you and while it may not be able to permanently put Goliath down it is enough to stun or even temporarily KO him (like Gil's GoB did a good number of times).

I would also like to point out that these are not restricted to ranged attacks and that ZRyougi could just as easily utilise them in CQC in tandem with a sword to produce a devastating attack that will certainly be able to overwhelm Goliath.

Again i would like to stress that these plates are not a perfect counter but rather can be evaded and sidestepped in fact as long as ZRyougi never goes above them he is safe and even then he can counter.

To summarise precog is a huge factor and it does allow for the vector plates advantages to be countered and overcome and when fighting ZRyougi who outweighs Goliath in combat ability you need that advantage- the fact that he has sub-machine guns that have overwhelmed opponents who are Hercules equal further puts Goliath at a disadvantage.

As for her eyes in action...

“This? Shiki Ryōgi again, if you haven’t already guessed. I expected it to start healing in short order, but so far that hasn’t happened. I suppose it’s the nature of her spell of death.

Negates healing factor.

Arondight

This makes a huge difference. ZRyougi is already a greater combatant than Goliath and holds most advantages par vector hax but has all the means to counter them but adding a power boost like this- one that puts him to the point of literally stomping a more powerful version of Saber than Hercules fought, to the point were Saber wasn't even able to counter attack or even attempt to retaliate and could only get thrown around so much that she ended up battered and broken completely defeated. This incredible combat advantage that he gets when he draws his true weapon will mean that he can completely overwhelm Goliath and kill him very quickly.

To Conclude

• I have addressed what i wanted to regarding the Gil attacks but now i would like to divert the attention to their respective performances against Saber- to which Lancelot handily outperforms Hercules despite the Saber that he fought exceeding the one that Hercules fought.
• The greatest advantage you have is vector plates as they provide impressive speed enhancements (that while potent will not allow Hercules to overcome ZRyougi's reactions, skill and precog) and battlefield control however ZRougi's precognition mixed with his skill and speed that allows him to act on what he predicts will allow him to evade these plates and continue to keep up his relentless assault until he is able to get that 1 hit that he needs to end it all for Goliath. The plates will also be incredibly difficult to utilise again ZRyougi due to him having the capability to constantly keep up the attack with his superior combat capabilities, and weaponry. All ZRyougi needs is 1 hit and the best that Goliath is accomplishing is preventing that- he will be on the defensive the entire battle and even when he starts to gain an advantage ZRyougi can quickly level it out.
• The battle will in a best case scenario be even- however ZRyougi's guns make sure that he will always hold some advantage- as i don't think you have proven Goliath is capable of actually overwhelming ZRyougi rather he is at best capable of competing/defending. If this i the case then ZRyougi will draw out Arondight and the stat advantage that he is granted will truly overwhelm Goliath and he will have no hope of pulling out a win against ZRyougi.

This has been really fun, good luck!

@giliad: Sweet. I guess I'll do one last Counters and just throw my Conclusion into that. Make it all one post. Expect it all tomorrow.

@jacthripper: @giliad: I actually don't think I'll be able to get my last post up in time. Doing a lot of holiday stuff with the family and I most likely wouldn't have the time needed to make a final post. We can just go ahead and open it up. I don't wanna hold everyone back and I've said what I needed to say.

You did a great job here, it was a solid debate! And may the best Viner win!

thats a shame man, lets open it up to votes then?

@giliad: Yep

Bump for Votes

@czarny_samael666@owie@thanosii@dratini1331@the_legendary_supersaiyan_hulk: @reaverlation: @xiix: @experio:@pikachumonster: @ssj_god: @stormdriven: @cgoodness: @funsiized: @cregan_stark: @awesomedude:@monsterstomp: @lordraiden: @lord44: @highaccuser: @jwwprod: @dccomicsrule2011: @darkraiden:@supermanwithatan01: @thedarklordpandamonium: @thetruebarryallen: @van_cere: @fatherchaos: : @fatherchaos: @homicidalmaniac: @dondave: @kidman560:@those_eyes:@allstarsuperman: @shootingnova: @zeroplus: @jayc1324: @beaconofstrength: @dredeuced:@venomoustaco: @shazam117: @iragexcudder: @xlab3000: @super_buck: @entropy_aegis, @pope052, @dextersinister, @kingares109, @cosmicallyaware1, @erik, @demonknights, @jedixman,@ancient_0f_days, @lukehero, @fallschirmjager@sirfizzwhizz; @jacthripper; @boscho; @jashro44; @wyldsong; @granitesoldier; @laflux; @iragexcudder; @juiceboks; @tparks; @i_like_swords; @higorm; @dedmanwalkin; @primez0ne; @ssj_god; @sebast_allen; @thenewbluebeetle007; @speedster101; @sherlock; @hulkage; @nickthedevil; @cjdavis103; @pr0metheus; @sovereign91001; @thatguywithheadphones; @transformers1024; @chaos911; @comicdude360; @deathhero61; @mr_ingenuity@haoalchemist@animelegend68@sightlessreality@supremegeneration@pr0metheus

if one of you guys will throw in a vote that will be much appreciated, i know it may not be characters that your all interested in but i think that it was a good debate

@giliad: Nah I hate reading CAV's and tourneys, I like reading fanfics. SIKE. I'll look it over later.

thanks man :P

bump, come on people we need a few votes here

@lukehero- just reminding you this exists :P hoping you can throw in one of those beautiful detailed votes again (or any vote really), thanks man

@giliad: :D

also if it isn't too much trouble could you throw in 2 votes (one factoring in the fact that i got an extra post and the other ignoring it) as i am deciding if it i should remove my last post and replace it with a closing statement as oppose to a set of counters that Joe didn't manage to react to- @joewell- would you prefer if i did this to remove the advantage i have had regarding the extra post?

@giliad: Nah man. It's my fault I didn't get a post up. If I didn't want you to have that extra post that bad, I should have made time and responded.

@lukehero: Bump

@giliad: @joewell: @jacthripper: I promise I'll vote tomorrow. I read the first 1/3rds, and then started working on a tourney post that took 3 hours to type up. I'm gonna go to bed.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@jacthripper: @giliad: @joewell:

I think I might actually have to side with @joewell on this one. I think overall Giliad had a more powerful character that could take it, but in the debate I think some of joewell's points weren't really countered or acknowledged. And I think that kind of hurt the debate in the end.

Even if only slightly.

Thanks for reading,

Floopay

@floopay@jacthripper: @joewell thanks for voting man, much appreciated...

Come on people we need more votes here, PS- can someone tag more people please because my quote and C&P function isn't working at the moment?

@lukehero: bump

@giliad: :d

@czarny_samael666@owie@thanosii@dratini1331@the_legendary_supersaiyan_hulk: @reaverlation: @xiix: @experio:@pikachumonster: @ssj_god: @stormdriven: @cgoodness: @funsiized: @cregan_stark: @awesomedude:@monsterstomp: @lordraiden: @lord44: @highaccuser: @jwwprod: @dccomicsrule2011: @darkraiden:@supermanwithatan01: @thedarklordpandamonium: @thetruebarryallen: @van_cere: @fatherchaos: : @fatherchaos: @homicidalmaniac: @dondave:@those_eyes:@allstarsuperman: @shootingnova: @zeroplus: @jayc1324: @beaconofstrength: @dredeuced:@venomoustaco: @shazam117: @iragexcudder: @xlab3000: @super_buck: @entropy_aegis, @pope052, @dextersinister, @kingares109, @cosmicallyaware1, @erik, @demonknights, @jedixman,@ancient_0f_days, @lukehero, @fallschirmjager@sirfizzwhizz; @jacthripper; @boscho; @jashro44; @wyldsong; @granitesoldier; @laflux; @iragexcudder; @juiceboks; @tparks; @i_like_swords; @higorm; @dedmanwalkin; @primez0ne; @ssj_god; @sebast_allen; @thenewbluebeetle007; @speedster101; @sherlock; @hulkage; @nickthedevil; @cjdavis103; @pr0metheus; @sovereign91001; @thatguywithheadphones; @transformers1024; @chaos911; @comicdude360; @deathhero61; @mr_ingenuity@haoalchemist@animelegend68@sightlessreality@supremegeneration@pr0metheus

okay guys just asking you all 1 last time if you could throw in a vote, we really need them here- i understand that it takes time but i really think that even though i may not win it is still worth the read and i'd rather know for sure than have to stop at 1 vote

@giliad: I wanna read and vote. I've just been occupied. But, I am cool with repeated bumps. :)

@giliad: sorry bro, I generally don't vote in matches were I am completely in the dark on the characters used. However I will say that you have done a very good job on the layout of your debate, solid counters, and healthy usage of scans. You have shown excellent improvement.

C'mon

I need more votes to finish this round.

thanks man, much appreciated