For this tournament, you pick any two street level characters from fiction, 1 male and 1 female, and imagine what their child will be like, then use them to fight!
Ex.- Aunt May and Arms Fall Off Boy
The offspring would have all the sweetness of Aunt May and All the arm falls off-ness of AFO Boy
You have to follow the morals of one of your parents, and the same goes for personality. (ie; in character)
All gear must be STANDARD GEAR OF THE MOTHER/FATHER. They must only use what their mother and father REGULARLY uses. (Ex. Cap with his shield / Elektra with her Twin Sai). My ruling for standard is if the have used it more than once in more than one arc. This gear can't break any limits either.
Your character will share the attributes of the mother and the father with an addition of the special abilities that either or both might have. (Ex. Grifter and telekinesis/ Cassandra Cain and Body Reading) You're of course going to be using scans of the Mother/Father but using them to interpret what their child is doing on the battlefield.
Your Character WILL BE AT THEIR PEAK OF WHATEVER THEIR PEAK IS. Adult, if you will.
You can choose characters from any universe, as long as they have applicable feats. However, if your character is a bit obscure, give me some info, and I'll read up on them and tell you yay or nay.
Limitations
Telekinesis is limited to 5 Tons. You can use it on your opponent, but cannot use it to pin them or attack them internally.
Telepathy can only be used to mind read
20 Ton Strength Limit
Travel speed is limited to Mach 2 (about 1500 mph)
Reactions are limited to being able to dodge shots from Mach 5 projectiles and being able to react to Mach 3 Individuals
No energy projection above Railgun (Misaka Mikoto)
Maximum durability is Iron Man (MCU)
Healing factor is limited in that if the body is destroyed, it cannot return.
The following abilities are prohibited
Unavoidable Attacks
Telefrag/slice
Physical Internal Attacks
Reality Warping
Duplication
Molecule Manipulation
Power Mimicry/Absorption/Nullification
Clayform
Intangibility
Temporal Manipulation
Perfect Precog
Perfect Invisibility
Other General Rules
I get last say- deal with it
I can kick anyone out if they're a b!tch about my rulings
Make your character post here, and once again when the PM is made
Make sure you tag me (@jacthripper), or I won't notice. Don't misspell my username!
Voting Rules
Voters must have at least participated in one tournament or CaV before, or otherwise have more than 5000 posts.
Voters must have actually read the debate to vote, if I see what I regard as bias, I'll discount the vote.
I'm not going to let anyone with a post count under 300 vote. It's not because I don't value their opinions, but I don't want any alts voting.
@jacthripper: I forgot all about Scorpion being in Injustice, he doesn't have any feats in that game anyways(well besides beating High council Superman and Trigon in his ending, which is nuts). And in MK vs DC, the DC characters were nerfed.
You basically have a Composite Version of the Venom Symbiote mixed with one of the most deadly Dark Jedi of her era, which means a powerful combination for an amalgam character that is easily at the limit of this tourney regarding stats. Honestly, the Venom alone would be hard enough for you to handle, now add the powers/abilities from a top Dark Jedi and you have a nightmare. Good luck.
(I'll wait to see your character introduction before making any strategies, considering I know close to nothing about Scorpion.)
Superhuman strength, speed, reaction, striking power, agility, stamina and durability
Hellfire manipulation
Teleportation
Limited TK
Summoning minions
Intangibility
Deadpool level Regeneration
Just like your character, Python is also around the limits of this tourney. You're right about Venom being tough and he might be able to cause problems, but neither Ventress or Venom have had to deal with hellfire(At least on Scorpion's level), not to mention that Kasai has his mothers great senses and speed, while he has the powers and excellent fighting skill from his father
This where I counter your claims with arguments and feats.
Just like your character, Python is also around the limits of this tourney. You're right about Venom being tough and he might be able to cause problems, but neither Ventress or Venom have had to deal with hellfire(At least on Scorpion's level), not to mention that Kasai has his mothers great senses and speed, while he has the powers and excellent fighting skill from his father
I'm not entirely sure about that. My character is easily on tourney limits because he possess the potential to even surpass them. Venom alone is beyond 20 ton strength, now combined with the Dark Jedi ability to boost stats and you have an idea about what I'm saying here. Is Scorpion around the 20 ton strength?
Now about hellfire, it looks like you don't know Venom very well, or his encounters with someone very familiar for his use of hellfire. Of course I'm talking about the Ghost Rider. A being who I found to be superior to Scorpion regarding hellfire. Next scans shows several moments between the two, and since I'm allowed to use composited version you'll see this is related to the symbiote and not the host.
Gallery
As you can see, hellfire doesn't properly work, even Ghost Rider's penance stare didn't work as expected.
But let's assume you would argue that this only happens with the Spirt of Vengeance, and that Scorpion is an entire different character with a different kind of hellfire. That could be a good argument IF Venom hasn't faced another being with hellfire. This time I'm talking about Daimon Hellstrom, the son of Satan himself, and he is quite superior to Scorpion as well. Next scans shows Agent Venom taking powerfull hellfire blasts that ultimately did nothing to him.
Gallery
As you can see, the Venom Symbiote has faced hellfire several times by the hands of superior beings in comparison to Scorpion, which leads me to believe that your best shot here will fail disastrously. My amalgam is superior in almost every single aspect, except for only fighting skill, which will prove to be useless against the Venom symbiote.
Of course that all that was pointed in the case of your character being able to tag mine in the first place. I'm not saying he can't but it will be very hard considering Asajj Venom possess both a Danger Sense AND Force Sense. So this will help her in a combat situation like this to avoid being hit by hellfire or whatever other attacks you may have.
I'm not entirely sure about that. My character is easily on tourney limits because he possess the potential to even surpass them. Venom alone is beyond 20 ton strength, now combined with the Dark Jedi ability to boost stats and you have an idea about what I'm saying here. Is Scorpion around the 20 ton strength?
Scorpion's strength is actually a lot higher then 20 tons. He's one of the few kombatants in the mku who are strong enough to break out of Sub-Zero's ice...
This is the same ice that Kano, Reiko, Frost(another cryomancer), Kintaro, and Goro were too weak to break out of, so when Sub-Zero froze them, they were left frozen for hours until the ice melted, while Scorpion could just break out instantly. And I believe that Goro outclasses Venom if we go by strength, he's shown pretty crazy feats....
Completely smashes a car without much effort
Easily lifts a pillar, and these weigh from 40-50 tons, Goro can just swing it around like a baseball bat(note that Scorpion is stronger than this).
And if you would like, I can show you scans of Scorpion overpowering Raiden, a thunder god who is capable of lifting planes. At the end of the day, Scorpion is far beyond 20 tons, he's somewhere around 40 or 50(imo stronger than that).
Now about hellfire, it looks like you don't know Venom very well, or his encounters with someone very familiar for his use of hellfire. Of course I'm talking about the Ghost Rider. A being who I found to be superior to Scorpion regarding hellfire. Next scans shows several moments between the two, and since I'm allowed to use composited version you'll see this is related to the symbiote and not the host.
While I do believe that Johnny Blaze is a better hellfire manipulator than Hanzo, Ghost Rider's hellfire is more magic based than Scorpion's(mostly focuses on it's soul burning and other magical abilities. Scorpion's hellfire does the same, but it's far more lethal and meant to kill before the soul burning effect even kicks in). So while Venom did resist soul burning and even the penace stare from GR, I don't think he's shown any durability feats that prove he can tank Scorpion's hellfire, let me show you a few feats to explain why...
Hanzo sends a fireball straight through the spirit of vengeance(scorpion), someone who can tanked bullets, rocket launcher blasts, engine blocks being thrown at him, etc etc...
Burns Sub-Zero(who can also tank rocket launcher blasts and not die) and reduces his entire body to bones
Scorpion can use his hellfire to create portals. And this is what happens when you go through Scorpion's hellfire.
Loading Video...
Scorpion can also use Hellfire in a different way as seen here by using telekinesis against Quan Chi before he can react, and summoning a fire ball from below that's strong enough to explode him into pieces.
To sum this up, other characters in MK that are capable of tanking rockets and bullets(if you want me to i'll show you gifs of that happening) cannot avoid a ball of hellfire from going straight through their bodies.
Same reason as for Ghost Rider, Daimon and Johnny's hellfire mostly rely on magic, and soul burning. While Scorpion's hellfire completely burns his opponents body to ashes, and focuses a lot more on physical damage. Just because Venom has tanked hellfire from other characters doesn't confirm that he will succeed against Scorpion's.
Of course that all that was pointed in the case of your character being able to tag mine in the first place. I'm not saying he can't but it will be very hard considering Asajj Venom possess both a Danger Sense AND Force Sense. So this will help her in a combat situation like this to avoid being hit by hellfire or whatever other attacks you may have.
Kasai will have many different ways to tag Asajj, he can easily summon minions covered in hellfire to grab her ankles, and sometimes the minions are covered in hellfire, meaning that they can burn your character while holding her ankles....
Or he can clone himself so he can attack from every angle....
If the minions hole Asajj down, Kasai will easily be able to Ko her by teleporting behind her, and then do something like this...
A fist of hellfire plus admantium claws going straight through your skull?? I don't see Asajj recovering from that
Now that i'm done with rebuttals, it seems like I haven't given Kasai's mother enough room to shine, so lets see some of the abilities that he inherited from her...
X-23
REFLEXES/SENSING....
Uses her senses to fight invisible opponents. Not saying that this would be too useful, but now your team won't be able to try sneaking up on Kasai
dodging bullets in the middle of combat
Gets the drop on spiderman(someone who has faster reflexes than Venom and Asajj)
HEALING FACTOR
Gets skeletonized by an explosion, pretty soon she's walking again
tanks a building-busting explosion
is Gutted by Lady Deathstrike and manages to Fight back.
Pretty soon she was Entirely healed, without even a scratch on her tummy. I should point out that her being exposed like that is also a cold resistance feat.
CONCLUSION:
Judging by X-23, Kasai's healing factor will allow him to regenerate from anything you dish out(I haven't even shown feats of Scorpion's regen yet)
Kasai has many ways of doing damage to your team and is fast enough to tag Asajj, if he gets one punch then it's all over
Scorpion's strength is actually a lot higher then 20 tons. He's one of the few kombatants in the mku who are strong enough to break out of Sub-Zero's ice... This is the same ice that Kano, Reiko, Frost(another cryomancer), Kintaro, and Goro were too weak to break out of, so when Sub-Zero froze them, they were left frozen for hours until the ice melted, while Scorpion could just break out instantly. And I believe that Goro outclasses Venom if we go by strength, he's shown pretty crazy feats.... And if you would like, I can show you scans of Scorpion overpowering Raiden, a thunder god who is capable of lifting planes. At the end of the day, Scorpion is far beyond 20 tons, he's somewhere around 40 or 50(imo stronger than that).
I can agree that your character, like mine, possess enough strength to surpass the stipulated limit for this tourney, but I must say I'm not impressed by your feats, I'm talking especifically about Goro feats. Those are the kind of feats that Venom alone can do without much effort on a regular basis, and when I say Venom I mean without vulking-out, otherwise that would be a ridiculous gap between the two. For example, the symbiote allowed one of it's hosts to trade blows with characters like Juggernaut and Hulk, I doubt Goro could manage to do the same against them. Bottom line, we are both beyond the strenght limit, but my point is that my amalgam can reach is more easily, since the Venom is around 70 ton strength at base levels (regular size).
> Scorpion's hellfire
While I do believe that Johnny Blaze is a better hellfire manipulator than Hanzo, Ghost Rider's hellfire is more magic based than Scorpion's(mostly focuses on it's soul burning and other magical abilities. Scorpion's hellfire does the same, but it's far more lethal and meant to kill before the soul burning effect even kicks in). So while Venom did resist soul burning and even the penace stare from GR, I don't think he's shown any durability feats that prove he can tank Scorpion's hellfire, let me show you a few feats to explain why... To sum this up, other characters in MK that are capable of tanking rockets and bullets(if you want me to i'll show you gifs of that happening) cannot avoid a ball of hellfire from going straight through their bodies.
Well looks like now I have to prove that the Venom symbiote can resist the burning damage from Scorpion's hellfire huh? No problem at all. On numerous occasions the symbiote has shown resistance against fire from several different characters and weapons, from Human Torch to taking rockets and walking through the fire without much trouble. Check scans below:
(Agent Venom fighting Toxin (90 ton strength) and manages to remove Eddie Brock from the symbiote in the middle of the fire)
Gallery
vs Hobgoblin.
Gallery
As you can see, fire is not a problem for the Venom, so once again I say that your attacks won't work here.
> Scorpion's minions
Kasai will have many different ways to tag Asajj, he can easily summon minions covered in hellfire to grab her ankles, and sometimes the minions are covered in hellfire, meaning that they can burn your character while holding her ankles...
Right, and Asajj Venom will be standing still waiting for this to happen? I don't think so. Venom alone is at Spider-man level of agility and reflexes, add a danger sense and force sense, not to mention the ability to boost himself through the force and you have someone at the limits of reaction time, I hardly doubt your amalgam will be able to tag her like that. Especially with a combination of two ways to predict danger, so your hits won't connect the way you want.
Or he can clone himself so he can attack from every angle....
The Venom Symbiote possess a very simple solution for that, and it's called multi-tendril impalement:
- Venom multi-tagging the U-foes henchmen (all of them with superpowers)
@jacthripper:can you put Flash and my debate to votes or are we waiting for a bit longer (i don't seem to sound arrogant but i think that with the pick Flash chose he probably won't win, or at least i shouldn't allow it), also tag for votes
@jacthripper I was a lot busier than I thought I would be. This post doesn't have to count if i'm too late
REBUTTALS
I can agree that your character, like mine, possess enough strength to surpass the stipulated limit for this tourney, but I must say I'm not impressed by your feats, I'm talking especifically about Goro feats. Those are the kind of feats that Venom alone can do without much effort on a regular basis, and when I say Venom I mean without vulking-out, otherwise that would be a ridiculous gap between the two. For example, the symbiote allowed one of it's hosts to trade blows with characters like Juggernaut and Hulk, I doubt Goro could manage to do the same against them. Bottom line, we are both beyond the strenght limit, but my point is that my amalgam can reach is more easily, since the Venom is around 70 ton strength at base levels (regular size).
That's only Goro, did you forget that Scorpion's strength has overpowered Raiden? Someone who can lift a plane, which is above Venoms strength. So this should proves at least that Kasai's strength is capable of going far over 70 pounds(which you stated to be the amount of weight that Venom can lift).
While Venom might have overall better durability than Scorpion, his regeneration makes up for it. He's regenerated from being thrown into a soulnado(a magical tornado that rips your physical body apart to a molecular level, and it takes your soul away). And i've shown you x-23's regenration feats too. Put Scorpion and x-23's healing factor's together and the outcome is practically unbeatable.
Well looks like now I have to prove that the Venom symbiote can resist the burning damage from Scorpion's hellfire huh? No problem at all. On numerous occasions the symbiote has shown resistance against fire from several different characters and weapons, from Human Torch to taking rockets and walking through the fire without much trouble. Check scans below:
(Agent Venom fighting Toxin (90 ton strength) and manages to remove Eddie Brock from the symbiote in the middle of the fire)
Gallery
vs Hobgoblin.
Gallery
As you can see, fire is not a problem for the Venom, so once again I say that your attacks won't work here.
There's a big difference between tanking fire and Scorpion's hellfire, especially when the other fire manipulator has no feats that put his fire at Scorpion's level. Characters like Sub-zero can tank multiple blasts from Jax's rocket launcher and just get back up unaffected by it and yet he can't avoid a ball of hellfire from going straight through his stomach. Not to mention that other characters with even higher durability than Sub-Zero are still easily melted by hellfire. So this alone proves that Scorpions balls of hellfire are stronger than missiles, which is stronger than every scan you've shown of Venom tanking fire.
Same with his fight with Hobogoblin. None of his feats suggest that his fire is stronger than Scorpion's hellfire
Right, and Asajj Venom will be standing still waiting for this to happen? I don't think so. Venom alone is at Spider-man level of agility and reflexes, add a danger sense and force sense, not to mention the ability to boost himself through the force and you have someone at the limits of reaction time, I hardly doubt your amalgam will be able to tag her like that. Especially with a combination of two ways to predict danger, so your hits won't connect the way you want.
Don't you remember the scan I showed you of X-23 getting the drop on Spiderman?
So Kasai shouldn't have any problems with tagging Venom, since even Spider senses couldn't react to X-23. She's also been able to tag very fast characters like Wolverine.
The Venom Symbiote possess a very simple solution for that, and it's called multi-tendril impalement:
- Venom multi-tagging the U-foes henchmen (all of them with superpowers)
Your move..
Tagging U-foes doesn't mean that Venom should be able to tag someone who has the combined speed and reaction time of Scorpion and X-23. Kasai and his clones will easily be able to evade being multi-tagged, and counter Venom's attacks. Not to mention that Kasai can ignite his entire body and the area around him in hellfire, meaning that Venom will be burn if he even touches him, he also has teleportation.
CONCLUSION
Kasai can use his reaction time and speed to evade any of Venom's attacks, and he can use his adamantium claws to avoid being cut by Lightsabers.
His hellfire will burn Venom to death
His strength is above Venom's, and he has the striking power to punch straight through Venom's head with his fist and adamantium claws
Due to Kasai's regeneration, Venom has literally no way to beat him.
@jacthripper- okay so i'v been following this from the beginning so i think i should respond to this...
Let me start by saying this was a good quality debate- it wasn't sloppy and it never seemed to get hung up on the same points over and over without anything new coming to the table (even if i am a bit sceptical about the strength levels of these guys- seems they exceed that limitation by quite a bit, although i think most of the noteworthy amalgams in this tourney do). However my vote has to go to @higorm.
@animelegend68 you did a good job but i felt Higorm just had the upper hand. There's always something about Higorm's debating style that i'v enjoyed, he never seems to bombard scans or really use them in any large quantities (it's something that, per his advice, i have been trying to accomplish myself in recent times) but every time he does post a scan it needs to be there. He uses scans when they need to be used and uses his own in-depth explanations to do the rest, seemingly relying more on his debating prowess as oppose to amount of scans (something that myself and other debaters have done in the past). This style of debating throughout his debate makes everything more believable, his counters were on point and his arguments were solid and every time i thought that animelegend had a good point i felt that Higorm had a better counter.
Both of you did really well but for me it was Higorm who deserves this one.
I am just going to assume all this non canon stuff was allowed so @animelegend68 gets my vote. He did a better job of representing how BOTH parents abilities will help his character get the win. Sure most of his character arsenal has been tanked by @higorm character before like hellfire and strength but that still left animelegends character insane HF and Adamantium laced claws to deal with. Even though Scorpion does not have cloning abilities because he never used it outside that one fatality that I am sure it fanmade, but @higorm did not call him out on that, so I can't fault him for this.
I am sure @higorm character is the fastest here but I know next to nothing about SW characters and he basically focus only on the Venom side of things. While one might argue that could be enough to give him the win he did not show me anything about how the force will surpass anime character in speed, or how will his character will deal with that insane HF. In short @higorm should have made one more post and he would have gotten the win but alas that not the case in my opinion , so as weird as it is saying this @animelegend68 gets my vote.
Sorry, been busy gang, but here I am. So, here are my thoughts:
@animelegend68: I thought you made a solid case for your amalgam, though there were a few issues that I will note below. Now while I don't know what all was canon, as another voter said, I am going off the idea that everything you brought up was in fact allowed and usable, since you were never called out on questions of canon. I think overall you laid out your thoughts and arguments well, and for the most part, you seemed to have a fairly good rebuttal for each of your opponents responses. In the early stages of the debate though, I would have liked to see a bit more "word-smithing" in there, but I also don't feel you necessarily overloaded the posts with scans and vids. Just a note, in the future, when you have several scans from the same issue, post them in the side by side format. Looks a little more tidy, and the size of your post isn't drug out due to overly large scans.
A disclaimer on what is to follow: I am not entering into debate on you with this, and you have nothing to prove to me. I am pointing out what I saw as food for thought and to help strengthen your position in future debates.
Personally I would question the strength and durability being touted on the Mortal Kombat side . Gameplay doesn't generally equate to actual feats, mainly due to the "hit point" factor. So people tanking missiles and such can be a bit iffy, and people that I generally wouldn't consider as tonners from the games, have gone toe to toe with the likes of Goro and Raiden in actual gameplay. Again though, I am no expert on Mortal Kombat. I am just going based on what was presented and what little I do know. As far as I can tell, some of that discussion was based on gameplay...if it isn't, then we need to see some sources outside of gameplay to solidify this idea you are presenting.
As for the X-23 side, my only real complaint would be of the portrayal of the getting the drop on Spidey scene. She makes an initial attack that was dodged, Spidey webs her claws, he avoids a kick from her, and she only gets on him once they crash to the ground and he was recovering from the fall. She landed better than he did and got on him before he recovered from the fall. I wouldn't call that a good instance of her speedily getting the drop on Spidey.
@higorm: As for you, good use of scans, and you had a good bit of word-smithing, though I think overall, your arguments were a bit on the "short" side. You didn't go into as much detail as I have seen from you in the past, and overall, the brunt of your argument seemed to reside on the Venom symbiote, and it would have been nice to see the physical stat side of things brought up in a bit more detail. I also would have liked to have seen and heard a bit more on the Asajj front.
With that being said, I feel @higorm took this one by a slim margin. @animelegend68, you had a good showing here, and I look forward to seeing what you can do in the future.
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