This really showed that Dick is the better fighter. Even holding back he still wins.
Nothing glorious about it since Kinasin forgot to mention Jason fought with Tim and got wailed on with a crowbar before hand. Granted Dick should beat Jason regardless, they have never really had a both at 100% fight with each other that I can recall.
Yet look at all the cheap crap jason pulled on dick, and dick still won.
I'm not gonna discredit the win and I thank you for posting the scans. I'm just saying they never really had a fight where both were at 100%. Jason's only advantage on DIck is a willingness to fight dirty but as I stated before and what you previously quoted from me is not enough cause it hasn't won Jason a fight between the two nor will it in the future. Nightwing is just plain better than Jason.
There are dozens, if not hundreds of ways Battle of the Cowl could have concluded with Grayson earning the cowl and Todd not suffering such a blatant defeat. So to me, discrediting the outcome by simply dubbing it as PIS feels like a totally moot point to me, because as a Jason Todd fan, I have no real gripes about what went down. Grayson is more skilled where-as Todd is the dirtier fighter and will rely on other tactics at times. That was represented well and honestly, Dick Grayson should take a majority over Todd. There's no shame whatsoever in admitting that, friends.
You're right there is no shame. I truthfully like Jason more than Dick. Hell, I truthfully would love to watch Jason dismantle him in some arc in the future.
There are dozens, if not hundreds of ways Battle of the Cowl could have concluded with Grayson earning the cowl and Todd not suffering such a blatant defeat. So to me, discrediting the outcome by simply dubbing it as PIS feels like a totally moot point to me, because as a Jason Todd fan, I have no real gripes about what went down. Grayson is more skilled where-as Todd is the dirtier fighter and will rely on other tactics at times. That was represented well and honestly, Dick Grayson should take a majority over Todd. There's no shame whatsoever in admitting that, friends.
Agreed 100%. I prefer Jason over Nightwing by a fair margin but I don;t have a problem with Jason losing to Grayson. Now if Jason loses to Tim or Damian, then I have a problem.
There are dozens, if not hundreds of ways Battle of the Cowl could have concluded with Grayson earning the cowl and Todd not suffering such a blatant defeat. So to me, discrediting the outcome by simply dubbing it as PIS feels like a totally moot point to me, because as a Jason Todd fan, I have no real gripes about what went down. Grayson is more skilled where-as Todd is the dirtier fighter and will rely on other tactics at times. That was represented well and honestly, Dick Grayson should take a majority over Todd. There's no shame whatsoever in admitting that, friends.
@RainEffect: I don't say he would be better then Bruce. I just prefer his way (Jason)
I had a big discussion a while back (that, sadly, turned into an argument) with people who said Jason would be a better Batman than Bruce. They basically said that, Bruce locks criminals up, but then they just escape and keep wreaking havoc. Jason would kill them, and that would be the end of it. My entire rebuttal against that was a simple fact:
It is because Jason kills that he can't be Batman.
The moment Batman kills the Joker, is the moment that the Joker wins. It sends a message to all of Gotham that Batman is no different to the Joker and that the ideals of virtue and good that Batman tries to inspire in people do not exist. They would lose hope, and Gotham would descend into an even worse level of chaos. Batman is that single light in the darkest night - he is a representation of order, justice and security.
Sure, Jason might run around Gotham, kill every bad guy and, hey, Gotham might even be better off. But what kind of society would it be? He would be setting himself up as the real villain and lord of crime, because he himself is committing criminal acts.
I don't care if Jason does run around killing people, but if he wears the Bat symbol whilst doing so, he's disgracing the legacy of it.
@RainEffect: Hah, happy to hear it. But don't be fooled, there will always be crazy fans for any character. But, I'll do my best to try to even things out if I also consider the hero or villain a favorite of mine.
@god_spawn: @Kinasin_: Exactly. I'll never understand why some people refuse to believe a character they like could lose. It's not insulting or turning your back on the character. When all is said and done, I like Nightwing, but I find Todd far more interesting as a character. Knowing he'd eventually get a haymaker or kick to the face from Grayson doesn't make me like him any less.
There are dozens, if not hundreds of ways Battle of the Cowl could have concluded with Grayson earning the cowl and Todd not suffering such a blatant defeat. So to me, discrediting the outcome by simply dubbing it as PIS feels like a totally moot point to me, because as a Jason Todd fan, I have no real gripes about what went down. Grayson is more skilled where-as Todd is the dirtier fighter and will rely on other tactics at times. That was represented well and honestly, Dick Grayson should take a majority over Todd. There's no shame whatsoever in admitting that, friends.
Agreed 100%. I prefer Jason over Nightwing by a fair margin but I don;t have a problem with Jason losing to Grayson. Now if Jason loses to Tim or Damian, then I have a problem.
Well... I guess we'll have to just wait and see on that one. Although, I agree with you that Todd should wipe the floor with Damian. The only way the kid stands a chance is with some major factors on his side... getting the jump on Todd, major prep, etc.
MAN AND ROBIN #11 Written by PETER J. TOMASI Art and cover by PATRICK GLEASON and MICK GRAY On sale JULY 11 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T • DAMIAN makes good on his decision to defeat each ROBIN, and in a brilliant show of arrogance, starts with RED HOOD! • The army of BATFREAKS is dead set on avenging their plight starts with the people of Gotham City!
@god_spawn: Ah, okay. I guess we'll have a lot to talk about when that issue finally comes around. I think Tomasi is doing an impressive job with Batman & Robin so I'm cautiously optimistic for Damian's "destroy all Robins" quest. I must say that the "in a brilliant show of arrogance" line gives me hope that he'll be in over his head, and hopefully the battle will reflect that.
@RainEffect: I don't say he would be better then Bruce. I just prefer his way (Jason)
I had a big discussion a while back (that, sadly, turned into an argument) with people who said Jason would be a better Batman than Bruce. They basically said that, Bruce locks criminals up, but then they just escape and keep wreaking havoc. Jason would kill them, and that would be the end of it. My entire rebuttal against that was a simple fact:
It is because Jason kills that he can't be Batman.
The moment Batman kills the Joker, is the moment that the Joker wins. It sends a message to all of Gotham that Batman is no different to the Joker and that the ideals of virtue and good that Batman tries to inspire in people do not exist. They would lose hope, and Gotham would descend into an even worse level of chaos. Batman is that single light in the darkest night - he is a representation of order, justice and security.
Sure, Jason might run around Gotham, kill every bad guy and, hey, Gotham might even be better off. But what kind of society would it be? He would be setting himself up as the real villain and lord of crime, because he himself is committing criminal acts. I don't care if Jason does run around killing people, but if he wears the Bat symbol whilst doing so, he's disgracing the legacy of it.
Jason wouldn't make a better Batman, but he is what Gotham needs for the time.
As for the no killing concept of Batman, that would fall under the category of stepping out of society in a sense. Execution was common back then where it wasn't to step out of society, but generally accepted in the past. A psychological fact is that of a person steps outside of a certain society, some people repleting said society WILL step up to protect it because it endangers that sense of community and because that person stepped outside their boundaries. That's what the men that rebelled against the British knew what they were doing and knew the consequences. They were doing something wrong to do what they knew was right. Batman doesn't represent order, justice, and security. Criminals such as Catwoman he will occasionally let slide despite committing misdemeanors. Batman acts based on self preservation, not that of representation depicting order and justice. His very presence is what spawned Gotham's most notorious villains to life.
Batman himself commits crimes as well. Just by being a vigilante is committing a crime. At least Jason would be getting somewhere in the present when he kills criminals such as Joker and Penguin. From the simplistic view society would see, Jason succeeded in saving lives and his actions would be venerated whereas Batman, would appear to have failed. Jason wouldn't be viewed as a lord of crime nor a villain, he would be viewed as a hero. Why wasn't the U.S viewed as a villain after bombing Hiroshima and Nagasaki? People believe we fight for the preservation of our own nation but in actuality, we're fighting based on immature and incompetent leaders that desire more power. Jason is fighting to protect Gotham, not to become a crime lord.
As for the Batman killing Joker comment, societies of people don't tend to think as deeply as you nor I. Evident by the very Vine itself. Batman utilizes fear as a weapon to fight crime. Is that what he wants to inspire in people as well? In the smarter group of people or everyone? The dumber groups of people will not understand why and unfortunately, dumb to average people replete the majority of society whereas smart people (Book smart, somewhat smart) are a tad bit more rare and depending on their age, they will possibly lack such wisdom to understand such concepts as Batman himself is a genius and not everyone can expect to think on his level. There's a quote that I like to say; "People never remember the times you're right but will always remember the times you were wrong". A vast majority of people will remember Batman not for what he supposedly stood for, but for how he failed.
Jason's method for killing people is more logical than Batman's in today's world. Batman can be a brilliant shining star in another world where such a society wasn't poorly forged by politics, advertisements, limitations, sociological mind control, and so much more.
Dick has more experience and has been Batman, he probably has superior fighting skills to Jason but when Jason was brought back he was trained by the All-caste.
Jason also wouldn't hold back, he'd kill Dick if he had to.
I'd still say Nightwing wins assuming Jason can't call for backup.
Dick Grayson is more skilled than Jason Todd since he was Robin longer, plus he's a natural acrobat. However, Jason Todd is on par with Dick Grayson and uses lethal fighting skills, which is what usually makes him an even match for Dick Grayson, or at least for a while. If Dick Grayson decided to use lethal fighting skills he would take down Jason Todd a lot quicker.
Dick Grayson is more skilled than Jason Todd since he was Robin longer, plus he's a natural acrobat. However, Jason Todd is on par with Dick Grayson and uses lethal fighting skills, which is what usually makes him an even match for Dick Grayson, or at least for a while. If Dick Grayson decided to use lethal fighting skills he would take down Jason Todd a lot quicker.
Dick Grayson is more skilled than Jason Todd since he was Robin longer, plus he's a natural acrobat. However, Jason Todd is on par with Dick Grayson and uses lethal fighting skills, which is what usually makes him an even match for Dick Grayson, or at least for a while. If Dick Grayson decided to use lethal fighting skills he would take down Jason Todd a lot quicker.
That being said, Todd is a better character.
"Be water my friend"
I agree with everything here EXCEPT the part about Jason being a better character.
Dick Grayson is more skilled than Jason Todd since he was Robin longer, plus he's a natural acrobat. However, Jason Todd is on par with Dick Grayson and uses lethal fighting skills, which is what usually makes him an even match for Dick Grayson, or at least for a while. If Dick Grayson decided to use lethal fighting skills he would take down Jason Todd a lot quicker.
That being said, Todd is a better character.
"Be water my friend"
I agree with everything here EXCEPT the part about Jason being a better character.
I agree that dick is a better character and is a better fighter
No, it is not. William Cobb almost killed Dick. On the contrary, Bruce beat Cobb without his suit, and beat finally Cobb after being tortured for days.
No, it is not. William Cobb almost killed Dick. On the contrary, Bruce beat Cobb without his suit, and beat finally Cobb after being tortured for days.
It 'was a good example to understand how good Bruce compared with Dick.
However, it is interesting. Dick stalled against Deathstroke, when Dick was Batman, against Cobb instead was going to be nearly killed him. William Cobb is perhaps one of the greatest fighters in the world?
It 'was a good example to understand how good Bruce compared with Dick.
However, it is interesting. Dick stalled against Deathstroke, when Dick was Batman, against Cobb instead was going to be nearly killed him. William Cobb is perhaps one of the greatest fighters in the world?
Dick/Nightwing. It's not even a question. Sure, i like jason and he can hold his own pretty well, but in the end, nightwing wins. he's beaten him a couple times already.
jason is awesome and i like him and nightwing the same, but nightwing is more skilled at fighting. often considered batman's equal in combat. and surpasses batman in leadership.
Log in to comment