• 66 results
  • 1
  • 2
#1 Edited by nickzambuto (13026 posts) - - Show Bio

VS

SCENARIO 1:

Hand to Hand combat on the roof of the Daily Bugle.

SCENARIO 2:

Jason gets duel Pistols, and Uzi, and a combat knife. Bullseye gets a deck of cards, 2 darts, and a Handgun. Fight takes place here.

Both start on opposite ends, unaware of the others location. Pre-52

#2 Edited by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (19951 posts) - - Show Bio

Just going to post some feats. here before someone says [blank] stomps :

#3 Edited by ImTheDamnBatman (3548 posts) - - Show Bio

(1)Jason wins. (2) Bullseye wins

#4 Posted by nickzambuto (13026 posts) - - Show Bio

@ImTheDamnBatman said:

(1)Jason wins. (2) Bullseye wins

Bullseye is an extrodinary hand to hand fighter, enough so to hang with guys like Daredevil, Deadpool, etc.

Conversely, Jason has better weapons in scenario 2, and is better at stealth.

#5 Posted by ImTheDamnBatman (3548 posts) - - Show Bio

I stand by my descision due to sheer stubborness.

#6 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (19951 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@ImTheDamnBatman said:

(1)Jason wins. (2) Bullseye wins

Bullseye is an extrodinary hand to hand fighter, enough so to hang with guys like Daredevil, Deadpool, etc.

Conversely, Jason has better weapons in scenario 2, and is better at stealth.

Bullseye can throw virtually anything and make it an effective weapon.

Jason Todd, even with stealth, would lose in the 2nd scenario.

He won't go down as fast though, since his helmet protects him from being headshotted.

#7 Posted by jashro44 (19873 posts) - - Show Bio

Round 1 I don't actually know....Bullseye actually is a pretty good fighter. I mean he is far from other top fighter but he isn't an awful fighter by any means. And he also has that adamantium (what areas does it cover?)...Is bullseye allowed to use objects in the environment as a weapon? Because he might find some stuff lying around in a construction zone he can throw at Jason. I'm not really sure who the better hand to hand fighter is but bullseye is more arrogant. So if bullseye can't pick objects up and use them I think Jason will win. But it will be really tough. If bullseye can pick stuff up then he will probably win due to a environment advantage (he might find stuff like hammers, screws, bolts, screw drivers, etc).

Round 2 is definitely bullseye imo. His accuracy is pretty amazing. He did kill elektra, Managed to ricochet an arrow into deadpools brain, and has given daredevil a good fight before. I think he will win round 2 for sure despite Jasons gear advantage.

#8 Posted by nickthedevil (11637 posts) - - Show Bio

Bullseye both rounds.

#9 Posted by nickzambuto (13026 posts) - - Show Bio

@YourNeighborhoodComicGeek said:

@nickzambuto said:

@ImTheDamnBatman said:

(1)Jason wins. (2) Bullseye wins

Bullseye is an extrodinary hand to hand fighter, enough so to hang with guys like Daredevil, Deadpool, etc.

Conversely, Jason has better weapons in scenario 2, and is better at stealth.

Bullseye can throw virtually anything and make it an effective weapon.

Jason Todd, even with stealth, would lose in the 2nd scenario.

He won't go down as fast though, since his helmet protects him from being headshotted.

I don't see why Bullseye making anything into a weapon is an advantage, he's already armed in scenario 2, and scenario 1 is just hand to hand (I doubt there's much of anything on the baron roof of the Daily Bugle that he can use)

@jashro44 said:

Round 1 I don't actually know....Bullseye actually is a pretty good fighter. I mean he is far from other top fighter but he isn't an awful fighter by any means. And he also has that adamantium (what areas does it cover?)...Is bullseye allowed to use objects in the environment as a weapon? Because he might find some stuff lying around in a construction zone he can throw at Jason. I'm not really sure who the better hand to hand fighter is but bullseye is more arrogant. So if bullseye can't pick objects up and use them I think Jason will win. But it will be really tough. If bullseye can pick stuff up then he will probably win due to a environment advantage (he might find stuff like hammers, screws, bolts, screw drivers, etc).

Round 2 is definitely bullseye imo. His accuracy is pretty amazing. He did kill elektra, Managed to ricochet an arrow into deadpools brain, and has given daredevil a good fight before. I think he will win round 2 for sure despite Jasons gear advantage.

You misunderstand. Round 2 is in the construction site, but I said round 1 is on the roof of the Daily Bugle so he can't find any weapons, keeping it H2H.

#10 Posted by jashro44 (19873 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Sorry about that. I'm not sure who wins round 1 in that case...

#11 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (19951 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto:

Exactly. He is armed in Round 2. That makes him so much deadlier.

Jason Todd would put up a fight in Round 2 but nonetheless lose. Bullseye's accuracy is crazy good and almost never misses

He could even turn his own bullets against him.

\

#12 Posted by jeanroygrant (20191 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickthedevil said:

Bullseye both rounds.

Even on round 1?

#13 Posted by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio

Hand-to-hand is going to be quite a battle.  Todd's skill and agility will make it interesting, but I think Lester's own skill, ruthlessness and superior reflex feats will ultimately give him the edge. 
And when it comes to weapons, Todd isn't going to win.

Staff
#14 Posted by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio
 Just in case anyone is wondering about Lester's unarmed knowledge
Staff
#15 Posted by livingtribunal (27 posts) - - Show Bio

I would say that Jason Todd has more fighting experience in my opinion

#16 Posted by darktiger (4235 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n said:

Hand-to-hand is going to be quite a battle. Todd's skill and agility will make it interesting, but I think Lester's own skill, ruthlessness and superior reflex feats will ultimately give him the edge. And when it comes to weapons, Todd isn't going to win.

agreed

#17 Posted by God_Spawn (37381 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: I got your back on Bullseye, K4tz.

Just in case people underestimate Bullseye ability to defy physics on a mind numbing level.
In case people underestimate Bullseye's ability for origami.
Moderator
#18 Posted by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio
@god_spawn: What makes the paper plane victory even better is Bullseye later ties the unconscious Daredevil to a giant crossbow and fires him out to sea.  Because, you know, theatrics. 
Staff
#19 Posted by God_Spawn (37381 posts) - - Show Bio

@livingtribunal: Jason has less fighting experience.

Moderator
#20 Posted by darktiger (4235 posts) - - Show Bio

@ImTheDamnBatman said:

(1)Jason wins. (2) Bullseye wins

agreed

#21 Posted by God_Spawn (37381 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: I like the slow build up.

" A dern good hiding place, mhm."

"I wonder if I left the sink on at home?"

"I probably shouldn't be lost in inner monologue like this with an assassin running around."

"Wait...what is that? No...NO, a rustle in the wind."

"NO PAPER. IT'S COMING AT ME. GET AWAY...GET AWAY....CAN'T MOVE IN TIME."

"GAAAAH!! MY EYE!!!"

Moderator
#22 Posted by nickzambuto (13026 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@livingtribunal: Jason has less fighting experience.

They're close enough so that it hardly matters... but Jason probably has more, what with being mid twenties and beating up armed thugs before going through puberty. How old is Bullseye? 30-sumthin?

#23 Posted by livingtribunal (27 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: Jason trained under Batman, Ra's al Ghul etc. Plus Jason fought throughout the multiverse

#24 Posted by ThexX (1560 posts) - - Show Bio

@darktiger said:

@ImTheDamnBatman said:

(1)Jason wins. (2) Bullseye wins

agreed

this

#25 Edited by God_Spawn (37381 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: I don't believe experience really matters anyway but Jason has less than 10 years under his belt on him anymore. They condensed too much time in the New 52. Dick's time from being Nightwing to Batman, back to Nightwing is 4 and reduced his age to 21. Jason was the Red Hood for only a couple of months to a year now. He's about 20 now.

@livingtribunal: Training under Batman, Talia's hired goons and the All-Caste isn't more about time, it's more about quality. And when the Hell did he go through the multiverse?

Moderator
#26 Posted by darktiger (4235 posts) - - Show Bio

@livingtribunal said:

@god_spawn: Jason trained under Batman, Ra's al Ghul etc. Plus Jason fought throughout the multiverse

you got a point,but bullseye wins round 2,he is too deadly with weapons

#27 Posted by nickzambuto (13026 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@nickzambuto: I don't believe experience really matters anyway but Jason has less than 10 years under his belt on him anymore. They condensed too much time in the New 52. Dick's time from being Nightwing to Batman, back to Nightwing is 4 and reduced his age to 21. Jason was the Red Hood for only a couple of months to a year now. He's about 20 now.

This is pre-52 n00b

#28 Posted by jashro44 (19873 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto said:

@god_spawn said:

@nickzambuto: I don't believe experience really matters anyway but Jason has less than 10 years under his belt on him anymore. They condensed too much time in the New 52. Dick's time from being Nightwing to Batman, back to Nightwing is 4 and reduced his age to 21. Jason was the Red Hood for only a couple of months to a year now. He's about 20 now.

This is pre-52 n00b

The bat families continuity has remained unchanged as a result of the new 52 with the exception of them becoming younger I believe.

#29 Posted by God_Spawn (37381 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: My mistake, but I don't see it mattering anyway. The only thing to change about Jason was added training from the All-Caste, everything else stuck for the most part.

Moderator
#30 Posted by nickzambuto (13026 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@nickzambuto: My mistake, but I don't see it mattering anyway. The only thing to change about Jason was added training from the All-Caste, everything else stuck for the most part.

Jason has more experience pre-52. That was my point the entire time.

#31 Posted by livingtribunal (27 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: Its experience. And he travel through the multiverse in the countdown to final crisis series. He traveled for months kicking all kinds of ass

#32 Posted by God_Spawn (37381 posts) - - Show Bio

@nickzambuto: Fair enough.

Moderator
#33 Posted by God_Spawn (37381 posts) - - Show Bio

@livingtribunal: That series was bleh. Either way it, experience doesn't matter and Bullseye is much older. Jason shouldn't have experience over him regardless.

Moderator
#34 Posted by livingtribunal (27 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: Age only slows down. and while i admit Bullseye is a ruthless fighter, Jason matches him, if not exceeds him. And if i remember correctly bullseye's supposed experience meant nothing in the shadowland story arc

LOL

#35 Posted by God_Spawn (37381 posts) - - Show Bio

@livingtribunal: I can't see your scan so I can't laugh with you. I don't think Jason is more ruthless. He may not have a problem killing people but he doesn't enjoy it like Lester does.

Moderator
#36 Posted by icysloth (1305 posts) - - Show Bio

Bullseye both rounds but round one will be alot tougher for him.

#37 Posted by darktiger (4235 posts) - - Show Bio

@livingtribunal said:

@god_spawn: Age only slows down. and while i admit Bullseye is a ruthless fighter, Jason matches him, if not exceeds him. And if i remember correctly bullseye's supposed experience meant nothing in the shadowland story arc

LOL

correct

#38 Posted by livingtribunal (27 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn: Jason tweeted about his kills, meaning he is a stone cold killer lol

#39 Edited by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio

I've always found the "trained under so and so point" to be lacking unless they have actual feats to justify the lessons being worthy of praise.  For example, Clint Barton, Wonder Man and Falcon have received one-on-one training from Captain America, however all are severely lacking when it comes to impressive unarmed showings.  
  
RE: Round 1 
When it comes to unarmed skill, these two are fairly comparable.  I can't see anyone actually proving one has a significant advantage over the other in this regard. 
  
Jason Todd has some pretty decent unarmed showings.  He gave Wayne some degree of trouble (but required his "toys" to compliment his tactics), moved too fast for Onyx, gave a decent showing against Grayson in a short, short battle (when he was posing as Nightwing) and of course has some solid displays of skill against fodder (for example, during his time in prison).  In addition to his more than competent level of skill, he's also bringing an impressive level of agility to the table and he has no issue with fighting dirty.  He's not above throwing sand or dirt in someone's eye (ask Drake).  Todd has manged to block an arrow from Ollie with a sword, so his reflexes aren't shabby, but they pale in comparison to Lester's (examples will be provided below). 
 
That said, his agility will come as nothing new for Lester.  The assassin is accustomed to facing off against characters who have superior mobility (Daredevil & Spider-Man), and Lester himself has no gripe with fighting dirty. And it'll be in a manner more effective than Todd's (the ability to turn anything into a projectile with uncanny accuracy).  When it comes to unarmed skill, we know he's more than capable of giving Murdock a tough time (though we know that's a fight he's not going to win), can give Elektra all kinds of trouble, proved to be Moon Knight's superior, and of course has had his fair share of humiliating fodder as well.  On top of (IMHO) slightly better unarmed showings, Bullseye is also bringing superior reflexes, durability and striking force to the table.  Todd has blocked an arrow with a sword.  Cool feat and certainly good, but Lester has blocked bullets multiple times.  During his escape from prison in Daredevil 181, his escape from custody before his death and during  Bullseye: Greatest Hits.  He also casually moved out of the way of a sniper rifle shot from Frank Castle in that story (and proceeded to completely embarrass him).  Then there's the adamantium lacing.  This is confirmed on his fists (provides extra striking power, as noted by Daredevil) and his skull which should increase his tolerance to noggin' strikes (see his battle against DD & Elektra at the same time for an example of his absurd pain tolerance).
 
So while both are pretty comparable when it comes to unarmed technique, I think Lester has the slight edge in that regard.  Furthermore, Todd's agility and willingness to fight dirty are countered by Lester's experience and his own tactics.  He also has more impressive reflex feats and adamantium lacing to help his attributes (delivering and taking strikes).  It'll be a dirty, brutal and good battle, but I see Lester as the one left standing.  If anyone needs scans for said examples, I'll do my best to find them in my mess of a gallery and photobucket account. 

Staff
#40 Posted by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio
@livingtribunal said:

And if i remember correctly bullseye's supposed experience meant nothing in the shadowland story arc

LOL

Losing to a bloodlusted Daredevil is hardly something to use against him.  Daredevil exceeds both Lester and Todd in unarmed combat.  He'd humiliate Todd in the same scenario as well.  What is worth noting is how impressive Lester's escape and fight with ninjas was before meeting his violent end. ;)
Staff
#41 Posted by livingtribunal (27 posts) - - Show Bio

ill give you props on that lol But im just saying Bullseye's so called experience shouldn't be over glorified

#42 Posted by nickzambuto (13026 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n said:

@livingtribunal said:

And if i remember correctly bullseye's supposed experience meant nothing in the shadowland story arc

LOL

Losing to a bloodlusted Daredevil is hardly something to use against him. Daredevil exceeds both Lester and Todd in unarmed combat. He'd humiliate Todd in the same scenario as well. What is worth noting is how impressive Lester's escape and fight with ninjas was before meeting his violent end. ;)

You double posted I demand your modship be revoked.

#43 Posted by God_Spawn (37381 posts) - - Show Bio

@livingtribunal said:

ill give you props on that lol But im just saying Bullseye's so called experience shouldn't be over glorified

I don't think anyone is overrating it. K4tz would be one of the first people to tell you experience means jack in comics. It's all about quality of training and fighting vs just experience fighting. Otherwise Thor, Ares and Hercules would Marvel's top tier fighters when they hardly have anything to show for it.

Moderator
#44 Posted by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio
@god_spawn said:

@livingtribunal said:

ill give you props on that lol But im just saying Bullseye's so called experience shouldn't be over glorified

I don't think anyone is overrating it. K4tz would be one of the first people to tell you experience means jack in comics. It's all about quality of training and fighting vs just experience fighting. Otherwise Thor, Ares and Hercules would Marvel's top tier fighters when they hardly have anything to show for it.

In fact, it was the first thing I said in my post! 
 

I've always found the "trained under so and so point" to be lacking unless they have actual feats to justify the lessons being worthy of praise.  For example, Clint Barton, Wonder Man and Falcon have received one-on-one training from Captain America, however all are severely lacking when it comes to impressive unarmed showings.  

Staff
#45 Posted by God_Spawn (37381 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: I went from page 1 to 1 1/2 to page 3. I completely overshot your huge wall of text lol.

Moderator
#46 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@god_spawn said:

@livingtribunal said:

ill give you props on that lol But im just saying Bullseye's so called experience shouldn't be over glorified

I don't think anyone is overrating it. K4tz would be one of the first people to tell you experience means jack in comics. It's all about quality of training and fighting vs just experience fighting. Otherwise Thor, Ares and Hercules would Marvel's top tier fighters when they hardly have anything to show for it.

It's OT but why do you think those 3 haven't shown more? They are gods, right? Or half in Herc's case.

#47 Posted by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio
@god_spawn said:

@k4tzm4n: I went from page 1 to 1 1/2 to page 3. I completely overshot your huge wall of text lol.

Hey man, I broke it into paragraphs :P
Staff
#48 Posted by livingtribunal (27 posts) - - Show Bio

I@god_spawn: I get what you're saying

#49 Posted by k4tzm4n (36465 posts) - - Show Bio
@k4tzm4n said:
I've always found the "trained under so and so point" to be lacking unless they have actual feats to justify the lessons being worthy of praise.  For example, Clint Barton, Wonder Man and Falcon have received one-on-one training from Captain America, however all are severely lacking when it comes to impressive unarmed showings.  
  
RE: Round 1 
When it comes to unarmed skill, these two are fairly comparable.  I can't see anyone actually proving one has a significant advantage over the other in this regard. 
  
Jason Todd has some pretty decent unarmed showings.  He gave Wayne some degree of trouble (but required his "toys" to compliment his tactics), moved too fast for Onyx, gave a decent showing against Grayson in a short, short battle (when he was posing as Nightwing) and of course has some solid displays of skill against fodder (for example, during his time in prison).  In addition to his more than competent level of skill, he's also bringing an impressive level of agility to the table and he has no issue with fighting dirty.  He's not above throwing sand or dirt in someone's eye (ask Drake).  Todd has manged to block an arrow from Ollie with a sword, so his reflexes aren't shabby, but they pale in comparison to Lester's (examples will be provided below). 
 
That said, his agility will come as nothing new for Lester.  The assassin is accustomed to facing off against characters who have superior mobility (Daredevil & Spider-Man), and Lester himself has no gripe with fighting dirty. And it'll be in a manner more effective than Todd's (the ability to turn anything into a projectile with uncanny accuracy).  When it comes to unarmed skill, we know he's more than capable of giving Murdock a tough time (though we know that's a fight he's not going to win), can give Elektra all kinds of trouble, proved to be Moon Knight's superior, and of course has had his fair share of humiliating fodder as well.  On top of (IMHO) slightly better unarmed showings, Bullseye is also bringing superior reflexes, durability and striking force to the table.  Todd has blocked an arrow with a sword.  Cool feat and certainly good, but Lester has blocked bullets multiple times.  During his escape from prison in Daredevil 181, his escape from custody before his death and during  Bullseye: Greatest Hits.  He also casually moved out of the way of a sniper rifle shot from Frank Castle in that story (and proceeded to completely embarrass him).  Then there's the adamantium lacing.  This is confirmed on his fists (provides extra striking power, as noted by Daredevil) and his skull which should increase his tolerance to noggin' strikes (see his battle against DD & Elektra at the same time for an example of his absurd pain tolerance). So while both are pretty comparable when it comes to unarmed technique, I think Lester has the slight edge in that regard.  Furthermore, Todd's agility and willingness to fight dirty are countered by Lester's experience and his own tactics.  He also has more impressive reflex feats and adamantium lacing to help his attributes (delivering and taking strikes).  It'll be a dirty, brutal and good battle, but I see Lester as the one left standing.  If anyone needs scans for said examples, I'll do my best to find them in my mess of a gallery and photobucket account. 
RE: Round 2 
 
Jason Todd has the luxury of better gear (more firearms & a knife), but a pistol in Bullseye's hand seals the deal for me.  The cards and darts likely won't do more than annoy/distract Todd, but Lester's accuracy means a firearm in his hands (even if it's a mere pistol) is an incredibly dangerous scenario for his foe.  Albeit being pretty agile, Todd isn't too agile for Lester, nor does he have the reflex feats to justify potential blocks.  Meanwhile, Todd has never truly impressed me with his accuracy.   He has some decent feats against fodder (shooting enemies in the foot recently in Batman & Robin) but we've never seen a standout accuracy feat that would justify tagging a bullet timer such a Bullseye.  The environment has a lot of cover so it could be an amusing shootout for some time, but in the end I can't see Todd taking more than a handful of victories in this round. 
Staff
#50 Posted by God_Spawn (37381 posts) - - Show Bio

@k4tzm4n: Wanna know what was impressive from Jason? Shooting Damian. Wanna know why? I hate Damian and laughed.

Btw, do you have the scan? I haven't seen in awhile.

Moderator