Rules: -Battlefield; A Gotham Graveyard. The weather is cloudy. The area has no people around. -Both will be fighting seriously but not bloodlusted. -They meet randomly and have a conversation before the fight. -Begin close. -They will fight USING HAND TO HAND COMBAT ONLY.
#4
Posted by Mercy_
(83366 posts)
- 1 year, 4 months ago
- Show Bio
Canary is far and above anything that Todd is capable of. He's a decent H2H combatant. Dinah is leagues above him and in another tier entirely. She makes short work of him.
#12
Posted by Mercy_
(83366 posts)
- 1 year, 4 months ago
- Show Bio
@eatmore_payless said:
@The Dark Huntress said:
@eatmore_payless said:
But Todd made the Batman bleed. and batman didn't even know it was todd so clearly bat is not holding back, so I give it todd with a slight win
.......what?
This is absolutely terrible ABC logic.
how come dark huntress?
Because being able to make somebody bleed does not mean you are above their skill level, or even at it. Canary is closer to Bruce's skill level (I'd put her at his level, perhaps slightly above or below) than Todd (who is just your run of the mill street leveler) will ever even hope to be.
But Todd made the Batman bleed. and batman didn't even know it was todd so clearly bat is not holding back, so I give it todd with a slight win
Ordinary thugs have made Batman bleed as well. Todd has no chance. In terms of skill he's.......adequate, shall we say? Dinah would mop the floor with him.
@The Dark Huntress: You can't just say he is average to someone because that isn't true. If you're an average fighter, you're an average fighter period there is just someone better. Cyclops is an average fighter, Thor is an average fighter, Stephanie Brown is an average fighter, Terry McGinnis is an average fighter. They generally fight fodder to show off skills, not give good fights or victories over credible opponents in h2h. Jason did give Bruce a fight before Bruce knew it was him even though he beat him when he stopped holding completely back but it is still impressive. You can't say X-23 is just an average fighter because she beat a holding back Wolverine, Jason has beaten the snot out of Tim twice, stalemated Ollie in a sword fight and has fought on even terms with Dick quite a few times even though he lost. Yes Jason is more of a prep guy and even used prep in some of those fights though he generally fought using his skills in those fights.
#18
Posted by Mercy_
(83366 posts)
- 1 year, 4 months ago
- Show Bio
@CitizenBane: You've redeemed yourself for the Kid Omega remark.
@god_spawn: I get your point. But here's my thing. Looking at him as a singular person, yes, he is skilled (to a degree) and yes he did okay in that one fight. BUT, when you compare him to the majority of other characters in the Bat Family alone (Dick, Bruce, Cass, hell, even Damian if there wasn't such a notable size difference), he's not that special. He's got a few good feats and showings, but overall, he's mediocre. He's never done anything skill-wise that I found overly impressive.
However, whether he's average or good is moot - Canary is excellent. It's pretty clear cut as to who would win.
@The Dark Huntress: I disagree with him being mediocre. I think the reason he can be called mediocre though is he really doesn't have solid victories over credible people except Tim and that isn't much either. Every time he generally fights a skilled person it isn't easy for them (except Bruce). Mediocre is street brawling or just training in something as simple as boxing or wrestling or maybe a bit of some martial art. You're comparing him to the wrong people in the Batfam. Bruce and Cass are high end fighters in the DCU, you can't even compare Grayson to either.. Grayson is a great fighter even before his time as Batman, he is well regarded among comic fans and in the DCU as skilled but he is by no means the best but he is by no means average or mediocre either and Jason has fought with him on near even grounds despite losing. Jason is a good fighter, not the best but I don't think calling him mediocre is right.
But Todd made the Batman bleed. and batman didn't even know it was todd so clearly bat is not holding back, so I give it todd with a slight win
.......what?
This is absolutely terrible ABC logic.
how come dark huntress?
Because being able to make somebody bleed does not mean you are above their skill level, or even at it. Canary is closer to Bruce's skill level (I'd put her at his level, perhaps slightly above or below) than Todd (who is just your run of the mill street leveler) will ever even hope to be.
Making the level of Batman bleed I mean.... ohh who am I kdding, yeah sure he's just nobody, who cares about someone who can make the "batman" bleed haha,
@CitizenBane said:
@eatmore_payless said:
But Todd made the Batman bleed. and batman didn't even know it was todd so clearly bat is not holding back, so I give it todd with a slight win
Ordinary thugs have made Batman bleed as well. Todd has no chance. In terms of skill he's.......adequate, shall we say? Dinah would mop the floor with him.
name one ordinary thugs, who made the batman bleed without them having the upper hand? yeah the joker once made him bleed, while he was tied upside down. two face? yeah he made the bats bleed with the help of Venom. yeah sure there are some ordinary thugs who can do that
#29
Posted by Mercy_
(83366 posts)
- 1 year, 4 months ago
- Show Bio
@eatmore_payless: I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or if you're genuinely making a case for Jason...
@CitizenBane:
@god_spawn said:
@The Dark Huntress: I disagree with him being mediocre. I think the reason he can be called mediocre though is he really doesn't have solid victories over credible people except Tim and that isn't much either. Every time he generally fights a skilled person it isn't easy for them (except Bruce). Mediocre is street brawling or just training in something as simple as boxing or wrestling or maybe a bit of some martial art. You're comparing him to the wrong people in the Batfam. Bruce and Cass are high end fighters in the DCU, you can't even compare Grayson to either.. Grayson is a great fighter even before his time as Batman, he is well regarded among comic fans and in the DCU as skilled but he is by no means the best but he is by no means average or mediocre either and Jason has fought with him on near even grounds despite losing. Jason is a good fighter, not the best but I don't think calling him mediocre is right.
I agree, Dinah wins this every time.
What it's basically coming down to is us arguing the amount of skills he has and my word usage of describing those skills. He's good - he's not anything special (despite being above mediocre). He's not anything to write home about, IMO.
#34
Posted by Mercy_
(83366 posts)
- 1 year, 4 months ago
- Show Bio
@Joelislegend: What's the relevance of that? There's no prep involved here and Canary's plenty familiar with tactics like that due to her encounters with Cheshire.
Honestly Jason Todd was trained by Batman, and if Batman has taught us anything it's that he's always 10 steps ahead of everything.
Back to my poisoned her reference... I think that Jason would not have met her "randomly," just like Batman never has anything random happen to him. If we look at Under the Red Hood, Jason is a master tactician. He would know exactly how to break Black Canary.
@Joelislegend: It doesn't matter what he did in Lost Days or UTRH because the we are using rules the OP set up. You can't bring in any outside things into the fight or any outside factors other than their skills and just because he was trained by Batman doesn't mean much here.
I think it's very hard to say who is the better h2h fighter, they both have hardly any h2h feats. I'd have to go with Canary though because she's the more experienced and has fought with tougher and more experienced h2h fighters than I can remember Jason fighting. It would be a very close fight though.
@Joelislegend: I read the fight and I know what happens and he ends up getting stomped later when he doesn't hold back. And I don't know if you were paying attention but I was the only one in this thread debating that Jason was a good fighter when others were saying he was mediocre and adequate. Jason doesn't even beat Grayson who is not even close to Bruce's level of skill let alone Black Canary's.
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