Jason Todd & Nightwing VS Captain America

I think that Captain America wins this. He is a lot stronger considering he bench pressed 1200 pounds and he is a lot more durable. He might be as fast as Dick but Jason is definitely slower than Captain America. He has ran a mile in 73 seconds. Cap's shield is one factor of this fight because they might not be able to break through it's defenses and it will bounce everywhere do to the setting of the battle which will be a big distraction for Jason and Dick.He is stronger than both of them and he might through a truck at them or at least Jason. He is also better in H2H combat. Nightwing might be close to him but not better. He is a master of many Martial Arts. He blended judo, western boxing, kick boxing and gymnastics to make his own special style. He is one of the best H2H combat people in Marvel. In addition, his suit is bullet-proof so Jason could not hurt him with his guns.

I agree with what you said.

Nice thoughts. As I can see, you thought out your answer unlike certain people. You gave all his powers a chance to be used.

Cap.

Yeah, The guy who has taken down Batgod himself is getting oneshotted by Captain America.....not.

That's completely out of character by all means.

• Morals are on

And what in your mind makes you think Nightwing is so much better then Red Hood?

@jmarshmallow: Did Red Hood have all that gear 1 year and 7 months ago when this thread was made?

No, but it's not like we ignore current feats.

The version the OP used is the same version that now has that gear.

Hence, that gear should be included.

Jmarshmallow

I think Cap takes this, superior stats.

@allstarsuperman: His fight against Batman is a non-feat, since it occurred completely off panel.

Of course, team takes this.

@jmarshmallow: I don't remember us ever doing that around here. Although you're free to discuss that version instead of duping a thread, we've always took the character at the time the OP was made. The venom and swords weren't used that long ago from my memory.

Fighting feats shouldn't change that much, because it's not like they have gone through any major training regiments.

If you want, we can ping @jashro44 as he is the OP.

@slimj87d: Works for me I suppose!

If we're using gear and feats solely when the OP was created, then I'd agree Cap wins.

Jmarshmallow

He's fought Batman more then once. He was beating on him briefly in Hush. He could have killed him, had he wanted to, in Under the Red Hood. And he had him down, disarmed, and a gun to his head in a flashback of the New 52 Under the Red Hood. Jason could kill Bruce if he really wanted to. To further this point Jason played batman at the age of 13, and set up bombs on the batmobile, he could have killed him, but he changed his mind and wanted to fight him face to face.

@allstarsuperman: We've argued this before, but he couldn't kill Bruce in Under the Hood, he got beaten bloody by Batman when he got serious. He wasn't beating him in Hush, they were pretty even. And at that point in Hush Batman was emotionally exhausted, and he was fighting the guy who he had raised as a son, that he thought was dead. The New 52 "feat" is pretty useless, the whole fight occurred off panel, we have no idea what happened. And finally, that last onehas nothing to do with a straight up fight.

We have done this before? I don't recall.

but he couldn't kill Bruce in Under the Hood, he got beaten bloody by Batman when he got serious.

He was taking the edge over Batman in the first fight by a fair amount. Even when Bruce got serious (in the first fight) Jason still toyed around with him and ripped off his mask. Jason could have killed Batman in the fight. His kris can cut through anything (within reason) and he easily slice through Batmans chest, and cowl. He landed the neck slice just so perfectly that he could rip the mask off, if he wanted to kill with a neck slice he should have been able to.

As for the second fight. Batman was pissed, not serious, Batman was always serious. Batman though Nightwing was dead, and Jason was standing in his way. Batman was trying to end the fight quickly, and disarmed Jason. Jason again was just playing around and trying to teach Bruce a lesson.

He wasn't beating him in Hush, they were pretty even. And at that point in Hush Batman was emotionally exhausted, and he was fighting the guy who he had raised as a son, that he thought was dead.

And Jason wasn't looking for a fight,regardless of him screaming "fight me!", he was looking for a reaction from Bruce. He was beating Batman up, then when Batman "got serious" and stabbed him in the leg, Jason ripped it out snapped the thing with his barehands, and kept fighting briefly.

The New 52 "feat" is pretty useless, the whole fight occurred off panel, we have no idea what happened.

It still shows him clearly on top of him, with a gun at his head, saying "It would be easy to kill you". That has to count for something.

And finally, that last one has nothing to do with a straight up fight.

Thing is Jason had played around with Bruce several times, it's still a feat. He could have killed him when he was 13, He played him and Green Arrow like fools in "Road to Jericho", and he later played Tim in Battle for the Cowl, he knew information and even Grayson didn't about who was taking over Gotham, etc, etc. Jason is a badass.

@allstarsuperman: Badass enough to repeatedly lose to Grayson?

Jason and Dick take this. If Cap manages to knock out Dick it would just allow Jason to kill him with the All Blade because Dick wouldn't be holding him back.

BftC = PIS. Name another story where Grayson beat Todd.

@wavemotioncannon: Steve isn't as agile as Dick. The team is taking this because either Dick knocks him out or Jason kills him with the All Blade. Team takes it 8/10. I really don't see how Steve's taking on both of these guys and coming out on top.

@allstarsuperman:

Yup.

I actually went and read through Under the Red Hood again, just to be sure we didn't read different comics. You must be looking at this through Red Hood colored glasses to possibly be drawing these conclusions.

Jason didn't toy with him, he was fighting Bruce fully. He put a cut on his mask, but you're making assumptions to say he could have cut his throat. It would be much easier to graze the neck with his kris than to cut all the way through to the throat. Then he tried to stab him in the head, and got blocked. The fight ends when Batman knocks Red Hood off the roof, kicks him in the face on the way down, and lands perched on his chest. Then Batman lets Jason up when his mask is pulled off.

The second fight is even more clearly slanted in Batman's favor. He doesn't even want to fight, like you said, he's trying to get away. He thinks to himself that he has to fight his way out, not incapacitate Jason. Hell, he starts the fight by saying, "Jason, please" Even so, you can say Jason is "toying with him" as much as you want, which isn't even true, it doesn't change the fact that he got beaten like he owed Bruce money, gushing blood from his face.

Counts for something, does not show superiority to Bruce, considering his overall better feats and two on panel wins against Jason.

It is a feat that is not at all applicable to the fight in question against Cap.

The team has a chance to take it due to Nightwings sonics and bombs...Other than that Red Hood's pistol ain't helping him...

Cap goes toe to toe with them for a while but drops them after a few exchanges.....I actually love Nightwing&Red Hood but haven't seen them progress in H2H to even match Batman honestly

Jason has much more then a pistol....What about his: All-Blades, frag/smoke/flashbang grenades, tasers, kris, batarangs, etc. He has the usual Batfamily tech and more.

Captain wins 6/10. Nightwing is one of my favorite DC characters, but he can't win this even with Jason, It will be very hard and long fight though.

@regiebravo: you're seriously underestimating Steves agility and overestimating Dick. Dick's not knocking Cap out anytime soon and Jason doesn't have All Blades he wasn't using them when this thread was made, even with them he's still dealing with the shield. Steve won't hesitate to put either one of them down especially once he realizes Jason is using lethal force.

IIRC Jason has been using the All-blades since about issue 3.

@wavemotioncannon: you're underestimating Dick and overestimating Cap. Either way, they're beating Cap.

How exactly was it PIS? Jason's unimpressive. Mentioning fights with Batman aren't worth much, given how grossly he holds back.

He's struggled to beat Drake twice and lost once IIRC. He also got soundly defeated by Green Arrow in a sword fight.

Team wins. Everyone here is tactical minded. 2 minds are better than one. Both on team have been trained by bats, one of the best strategists. I'm not saying capt gets stomped, but he will go down. I see capts shield getting tossed out of play and then him getting flanked and over powered.

Are you joking? .......................................... Jason was unimpressive in BFTC cause he was OOC and threw a total of 2 punches that entire ending fight. Batman did not hold back at all in the first UTRH fight. Da fuk? He almost killed Drake in Hush, beat Drake absolutely unconscious in TT29, nearly killed him in BFTC, and in TT16 he disarmed him and fought him while blinded by a flash bang, Tim is not on Jason's level. LOL, he wasn't even trying in his fight with Ollie. Ollie was totally serious, while Jason was toying around/stalling until Mia was captured so he could "teach her a lesson". You're looking at all these showings backwards.

Let me guess you think Damian > Todd cause of Batman and Robin 11? Jason stomped Damian in both BFTC and Batman Reborn.

@artyom: I have to look at some of the early RHaTO issues I have, I don't recall him doing anything with them that would give him a huge advantage over Cap.

@regiebravo : what has Dick done to make you so sure he'd KO Cap or Jason could beat him either?

Doesn't really matter as the feats he still gets to this day are specific to the Jason in the OP...same continuity. I'd have to ask a mod if that is acceptable though.

Dick was also drugged, electrocuted and blinded.

He beat Tim prior to One Year Later. After that, Tim beat him in his solo series using the environment. He only almost killed him in BFTC due to the fact that he had the home-field advantage and snuck up on him. I can't comment on Teen Titans 16, but he gave him trouble during their fight in the tower. Tim isn't better than Jason, but the gap between Drake and Todd isn't nearly as large as people make it out to be.

In regards to Ollie, Queen himself was holding back immensely. He could've slit his throat had he actually wanted to kill him.

If it helps you sleep at night thinking I believe Damian > Jason, than more power to you.

@wavemotioncannon: Jason one shotted Shiva and Lobo, I'm sure he'll one shot Cap while he's distracted going h2h with Dick.

Don't even go there. That Lobo's only feat is getting beaten by Slade an getting killed by the real Lobo, he himself isnt impressive at all.

How much can Nightwing or todd bench press?Cap is a 1200 pounder but I think it goes to cap due to being physically better.

Dick was also fighting to his best ability. Jason was out of character and threw 2 punches and 1 kick that entire fight. Most of their fights are in Grayson's favor.... In Outsiders 44, Jason wasn't wanting to fight, Dick was fighting full out to take Jason down. In BFTC, Jason was OOC and didn't want to fight (He wanted Dick to be his Robin), Dick was fighting full out to take Jason down. The best exception would be Batman Reborn where Jason shoot Grayson point blank, and actually beat him. Nightwing wasn't holding back any in fight, Jason was.

Dondave told me about Tim's solo fight with Todd. He said it was PIS. So I looked up scans of the fight, Tim's thought box literally says something to the extent of "Jason's stronger, but I have more training". LOL, what? In the time were that fight took place Tim had only been trained by Batman, IIRC. Jason had all his Lost Days training under Talia. The writer had no idea what he was talking about.

Tim landed one punch in TT29, Jason beat him senseless. The entire issue was Jason throwing Drake through walls, kicking him across rooms, punching him through a door, disarming him and beating him with his own weapon, etc. Jason was dominating that fight.

What makes you think Tim is so close to Todd? Tim was a spoiled nerd. Todd was raised on the streets of Gotham, he's a fighter. Tim has trained under Batman and later Lady Shiva, IIRC. Jason has trained under Batman, Talia's hired mercs, the All-Caste, the League of Assassins, and Lady Shiva. Tim's been trained to take down, Jason's been trained to kill. Jason is simply better.

Jason states that, but maybe he missed, like Jason also says. As I said before Jason was toying around in that fight. Stalling until Mia was captured. Jason has later beaten Ra's al Ghul in a sword fight.

Every time Jason fights someone without the intention of killing them, he is technically holding back. Jason has shown a couple times why being trained and willing to kill is an advantage:

Gallery

Welp hence NightWing is just Code-name for: "Im Batman, but i just happen to go by the name NightWing". I'd say NightGod wins

Dick was distracted because of Damian.

A bunch of silly intangibles like that change nothing. Cap was a sickly artist before the SSS, but he'd stomp Jason's head in. He's stronger, faster, more skilled, smarter and literally better across the board.

At best, Jason is Nightwing level.

Cap can take both of them.

@wavemotioncannon: actually he did have the all blades back then.

Team

Team

Somebody obviously has never picked up a Red Hood and the Outlaws comic.

@midnightdragon18: I know now and my question is what has he done with them that would give him that much of an advantage over Cap. I have to research my earlier issues because I don't remember any feats with the blades.

First of all, I'm discussing the Jason Todd that existed when this thread was made. No venom or blades.

What does the team have that can surprise and overwhelm Cap? Remember, Cap has fought along and against people like Taskmaster, DD, Hawkeye, etc. They have used projectiles, gadgets, billy clubs and everything that is commonly used by Nightwing and Red Hood.

My main argument is that Cap has a major surprise for the team. They don't know he's a super soldier. They don't know this guy can rip a chunk of his muscle tissue out of his chest and continue to fight for hours and fall off of a 1000 foot launch pad. They don't know this guy can just tank a explosion straight to the chest from a kinetic charge from gambit. They don't know he has the leg strength to run 60 MPH and throw his shield faster than a ICM missile straight through cars, tanks, helicopters, etc. By the time they do figure out that Cap is enhanced, they might have already gotten hit by a ricocheting shield, something else that can surprise the team.

I think the team stands a better chance at winning if they had basic knowledge on Cap, but they don't here. It's a completely random encounter to them and they can't afford to be hit with a shield that can go through a car. They can't risk taking a punch that sends a 310 lb adamantium Wolverine 15 feet away. They will more than likely expect for him to be a peak human and will fight him like he's one, when really he can throw his shield at 100s of MPH and sprint at 60 MPH at them.

I'll say Cap 6/10, maybe 7/10 due to stats and the greater element of surprise.

@slimj87d: stop right there, jason had all blades when this thread was created.

@midnightdragon18: When did he start using them? The first appearance I saw them in was Issue 7 of Red Hood and the outlaws which this thread was made approximately 45 days before that.

Regardless, it doesn't really chance my scenario if Jason doesn't have access to the swords and venom. But I'll say that if he does have the blades then the team would win.

@wavemotioncannon: all blades feat at the creation of the thread, or current all blades feat ?

@midnightdragon18: When did he obtain the all blades. From my memory and research, it was issue 7 of redhood and the outlaws. This thread was made before that issue.

Regardless, I've already gave my assessment with and without the blades.

@slimj87d: They made a debut in issue 4

@midnightdragon18: But when did he actually start using them and having feats with them.

@midnightdragon18:

I'll take your word for it, it seems he did have the blades before this thread was made.

Um...the above scenario COULD happen, although a more likely outcome is that NOBODY gets "one-shotted" and it goes either way.