Jason Bourne vs Oliver Queen Vs Matt Murdock

@nfactor1995:True

Arrow fights superhumans through sheer skill on a regular basis. He's actually faced other martial artists who had feats of their own and one upped them. All of his stats are legitimate peak human. Daredevil and Bourne can team up and they'll still lose to Oliver.

@nickzambuto: Everyone here has superhuman feats though, so saying he fights superhumans doesn't set him apart. Matt could be considered peak human too.

This is probably because of the choreography but Matt and Bourne to me have demonstrated far superior fighting skill and technique. Oliver in many of his fights looks like he is swinging his arms and now randomly in front of him and happening to win. But based on implied skill and feats Oliver probably wins, but only if it took place in a CW show. In any other show it scenario outside of Arrow, Bourne would probably win with Matt being a close second.

Like what?

Yeah and going by choreography Bourne would also solo every comic book street leveler at once since all they do is throw haymakers.

Jason then probably matt and Oliver

the reason i put matt infront of ollie. Yes mats stricking power isn't very good but he is way more skilled and a lot faster. With his added aerobatics he is going to be able to land a lot more hits which will end up superseding the damage he's putting out

@nickzambuto: Like being able to take on and beat large groups of opponents. Taking the beatings that Matt has, and being able to aim-dodge bullets. Let's not forget Matt kicking someone hard enough to break a windshield with their body. Matt doing a full front flip with Stick on his back is an amazing feat of strength too, while being choked by Stick. Being able to beat a group of Russians with broken ribs and stab wounds is superhuman enough. Simply beating other superhumans does not make Oliver special. He's not really that much better than anyone here

And I don't know what comics you are reading where people are throwing haymakers.

@nickzambuto: Slightly off topic, but if choreography really is that meaningless, then why does everyone hate on Nolanverse characters for fighting slow? People say that Nolan's Batman cannot win against pretty much anyone on this site because he is too "slow," even though it is stated by the director of the movies that he fights faster than the eye can see (as fast or faster than Arrowverse characters). The only reason it looks slow is because Nolan wanted to showcase the specific moves Batman was using in his fights.

@jayc1324: None of that is even close to superhuman. That's basic peak human.

@nickzambuto: I don't know of any humans who can do that. Real martial artists can't beat 7 or more guys at once. They can't beat armed Russians with broken ribs.

"Peak human" or "superhuman" doesn't really matter though. Those are simply titles with no real meaning. Batman benching over 1000 pounds in comics is peak human but in real life its superhuman, so what title you give someone doesn't say much and doesn't change their feats. Saying Oliver beats superhumans means nothing really.

Probably Arrow.

That's a bad argument. OBVIOUSLY I am referring to the fictional classifications when I say peak human and superhuman. Daredevil being superhuman in real life literally has no meaning in this fight, because compared to Arrow, a man who is a near-casual bullet timer and can generate over 1,000 pounds of force in his arms within seconds to crush a human neck, he is weak. Arrow beating superhumans through sheer skill DOES mean a lot when those superhumans were literally 20x stronger then him with speed to match. But Daredevil can beat... canon fodder. Please explain why you think Daredevil actually stands a chance, or Bourne for that matter, because it sounds like you just like them more.

@nickzambuto: Even in fictional classifications it doesn't matter. It is just a title. Arrow would hardly be peak human in comics.

Does it really take 1000 pounds? So you're saying that I can set 999 pounds on my neck and be fine? No. He can't create that much force. If he could then why didn't he break the handcuffs when that Cupid Lady handcuffed him to the train tracks? Daredevil doing a flip with another grown man on his back isn't weak.

Don't play the "you like them more" card. I was just saying that saying oliver beats superhumans means nothing. Especially when he has trouble with people who aren't superhuman. What 20x stronger guy did Oliver beat? Not that it matters since regular guys can give him trouble. This isn't about who I like more, its about you trying to make him special because he beat a superhuman, which is not the case. Who cares about beating a superhuman when normal humans can match him.

Yes, it takes 1,250 pounds of torque to snap a human neck. This is a scientific fact, and not only that, but this is even stated specifically in the show, by Barry Allen, at which point he jokingly said to Oliver "I guess you didn't know how hard it was to snap a neck, huh?" and Oliver replied "Hmm? Oh uh, yeah no idea..." Therefore the showrunners obviously know what they were implying every time they had Oliver snap somebody's neck. Now that doesn't mean putting 999 pounds on your neck would be healthy, just because that isn't enough to literally snap your neck doesn't mean you probably wouldn't still die. But what Oliver does is different, he is legitimately generating that much force.

Now why didn't he break Cupid's handcuffs you ask? I'm not sure, he was heavily fatigued from fighting Cupid and then falling a couple stories onto his back, so perhaps dislocating his thumb to slide out was just easier at the time, especially when a train was incoming and he needed to move fast. Doesn't change the fact that Oliver actually DID snap a pair of handcuffs in half fairly casually, in episode 1x17 at the 23:30 mark, when he broke Huntress out of prison. So clearly, handcuffs aren't a limitation on him, and he is peak human by comic book standards.

Beating superhumans does indeed mean something. We're comparing feats, not who we like more. Daredevil couldn't beat a superhuman, he can barely even beat guys like Melvin Potter and Wilson Fisk who were just abnormally strong, but still probably not even peak human, which Arrow is. Is Daredevil weak? No, he did a backflip with Stick on his back. Granted Stick was an emancipated old man, but that indicates Matt can handle at least a couple hundred pounds quite easily. This qualifies him as "Olympic level." Not on par with Arrow. With one swing of his bow Arrow can send as many as three men simultaneously, all bigger than Stick, sprawling through the air. When fighting China White and Bronze Tiger at the same time, he gained some distance by punching White and sending her across the lot, she only stopped because she slammed into some crates.

The difference between Olympic and peak human is clear. Arrow is completely out of Daredevil's league. I fail to see how the fact that Arrow struggles against 'regular guys' is supposed to demean him, you sound like you don't know anything at all about the show. I can only assume that these 'regular guys' you mention are Malcolm Merlyn, Deathstroke, Ra's al Ghul, Bronze Tiger, and the like. Master ninjas, spec ops, and assassins. Quite regular indeed.

You make it sound like Arrow struggles against canon fodder. That's just a blatant falsehood, if you need to try that hard to support your argument, then you might be better off just admitting you were possibly wrong. Arrow fighting superhumans does indeed speak of his combat abilities, and since these 'regular guys' he struggles with can also fight superhumans, that doesn't speak ill of his abilities. Solomon Grundy's strength was compared to a crane, or a forklift. He knocked down a giant industrial hangar door made of reinforced titanium in seconds, and carried a six ton industrial centrifuge over one shoulder like it was nothing. Mirakuru users are 10 tonners, a few inconsistent feats sure but that's averaging it out. Hence 20x stronger than Arrow, and also just as fast. People always forget that fact. This is why I say CW Arrow is literally the most underrated character on CV; he's a comic book based character who surpassed his comic book counterpart. He's worthy of fighting Punisher and Red Hood, not Jason Bourne and Netflix Daredevil.

@nickzambuto: Please give me a source or something for that number. And Olivers statement says nothing about the exact amount of force.

Good point about the handcuffs. Cupids encounter is more fresh in my mind than all the way back in season 1. But Oliver is not anywhere near peak human by comic standards. He is nothing compared to Batman.

I repeat that beating superhumans is meaningless when you are matched by regular guys. Those guys you listed are very skilled but are still not superhuman. I didn't say he struggles with fodder. I meant those exact people you listed, who are indeed not superhuman. Nobu is a ninja too and so is Stick. Rance from Daredevil first episode was an assassin. Ted Grant did very well against Oliver too.

Arrow is not underrated. You just try to make him on par with comic peak humans and since people disagree you say he's overrated. By the way I do believe arrow wins this. I said so at the start of this thread. But certainly not because he beat random mirakuru thugs. Especially when mirakuru Roy beat him up.

Dare Devil.

Bourne excels in using his environment to his advantage. A dojo doesn't provide much by way of an environment for him to use, aside from slamming his opponents into a pillar, wall, or the floor. At close range his fighting style heavily employs grappling, gaining physical control of his adversary, rather than the spinning and acrobatics used to keep a foe guessing his opponents tend to do, which might actually limit him if facing two fighters used to taking on multiple skilled opponents and acting in concert.

Oliver is really more of a weapons guy. His fights almost never take place without a bow, arrow, or blade of some sort in his hand. He has beaten arguably better hand-to-hand combatants, though usually by seizing an opportunity rather than with outright skill: Nyssa, Deathstroke, Ra's Al Ghul. What he and Matt have to their credit is a great deal of that comic book situational awareness. Daredevil's radar sense, however, puts him over Arrow in that regard. If one of the others ascertains Daredevil's potential vulnerability (essentially, take his hearing out of the equation), however, Matt's basically out of the fight considering who he's up against. Assuming he doesn't have that eye-sore of a costume weighing him down - and he's not suffering a laughable amount of injuries - the speed advantage belongs to Matt. Plus, we kknow he can take a beating.

I'd give it to Oliver by a hair. He's used to taking on multiple League of Assassins members on the regular, which gives him an edge. He'd be able to split his focus between his opponents, and would be better prepared to take on both Matt and Jason's fighting styles (analogues: China White, Bronze Tiger; Nyssa, pre-Deathstroke Slade Wilson).

Oliver is confirmed by the writers capable of generating as much as 1,250 pounds in his arms within seconds. By consistent feats this makes him a little bit weaker then Batman, but easily stronger than a lot of other comic book peak humans.

Beating up a super human through sheer skill is extremely impressive. If you don't understand that then I don't know what to say. You seem to be missing my point entirely; Mirakuru users have superhuman strength and speed. Oliver didn't overpower them, he beat them through sheer skill. Then he gets matched by guys like Malcolm Merlyn who are also extremely skilled. I've never seen comic book Batman fight a 10 tonner through sheer skill. And Oliver didn't get beaten up by Roy, he danced around his every move and made him look like a rookie. Then later when Roy was completely overdosed on Mirakuru, he attacked Oliver who didn't even want to fight, and broke his leg. Hardly a low showing.

I think its obvious Oliver beats Matt. As things stand Matt lives in a less challenging world than arrow. This would probably change when defenders airs but than again Oliver is making appearances in that heroes of tomorrow show or whatever I believe with captain cold, firestorm, and hawkgirl, not to mention the vixen animated series so baring that in mind I have my doubts at the moment Matt will ever catch up. I mean its possible I guess that the heroes of tomorrow and defenders will face similar threats (doubt it since defenders are mostly street levellers where as heroes of tomorrow has mid tiers on the team).. Even if they do Arrow can get away with so much less realistic stuff in an animated series so theres that.

Point being Matt wont win this, and I as far as I can guess I doubt he will ever beat Oliver. I could be wrong obviously but Arrow has more potential featwise due to the animated series and the heroes of tomorrow. I mean daredevils series is amazing but I don't see him beating Oliver now or in the near future.

@nickzambuto: Batman beat a young Aquaman before just for the record. Way above 10 tonner. Oliver is nowhere near him. And still no source on the 1000 pounds thing...

Beating unskilled superhumans is not that impressive. Fights aren't weight lifting contests. I don't know why you think I missed your point. Beating unskilled metas is not relevant when fighting a skilled human.

Yeah because Oliver just let Roy beat him up.. Losing to a superhuman isn't a low showing.

Bourne takes it

Nvm dare devil wins

W T F. I realize this is CV but do not go overboard just because 2 of these guys are based off comic books..

Bourne beats the absolute s&#% out of either of these guys.

Ollie trained for a few years on an island...big woop...

Daredevils' senses may keep him in it longer but no one here is on or near Bourne's level of CQC

Somehow Bourne and Queen knock each other out while simultaneously one-shotting Murdock.

Bump because of the new feats each of these characters have which by now it’s a lot

Lol what's Bourne doing here?

@socajunkie: Lol at the time I made and you can see the debate it was a close fight might not be now with the feats Matt and oliie have now but it was

Ollie. Bourne is a non-factor.

Bourne does not belong here. Ollie can take Matt. Comparable skill, better stats.

Bump

Lol at people who have no Bourne knowledge. Whether it be the movies or the books. They probably aren't even aware that he's enhanced. Bourne is the best H2H fighter in this bunch and his physicals are at or above the competition. He just doesn't wear a fancy costume and operate in a fantasy world, so you try to neglect him.

@nomar: That’s why I put him in this fight

Queen.