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#201 Edited by SlimJ87D (9651 posts) - - Show Bio

@russellmania77 said:

@smxlr8: why would goku need the sun to use he's ki?

@batman242: i never said anything about ssjg. but fine, when goku fought bills for the first time, he punched a hole thru king kai's whole planet, and got hit with an attack strong enough to put goku down. maybe that doenst matter, but also the more ki you have the more durable you are, frieza was getting stomped on by ssj goku and still survived a planet explosion and as far as i know, superman's strongest heat vision shown was when he blasted a bunch of doomsday clones that batman was able to kill. do you have any proof goku can not take a punch that can destroy/crack a planet? I DONT THINK SO

King Kai's planet is a very small one.... not even the size of a moon nor Pluto. You're right, it doesn't matter, It doesn't show how durable Goku is. Superman can definitely take a punch like that though. Superman also split an ocean with his heat vision. He doesn't use his heat vision to the fullest because he likes to hold back, but when he doesn't hold back, he can just insta-lobotomize or incinerate Goku with it... because like I said, Goku doesn't show any high end durability feats against such things. I don't think he'd be able to dodge it easily either since it comes so quickly.

You're speculating if Goku can take the heat vision or not. I have a few problems with your heat vision argument. It's not like heat vision is light speed anyways, running slower than light speeds, much slower as we know Superman can't run or move his limbs anywhere close to Wally's abilities, Wally was able to outrun the heat vision. Goku could easily dodge the heat vision especially if he uses instant transmission.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/12/129424/2657933-1171461_3_super.jpg

If you like to make speculations and comparison, here's a more direct approach of magnitude. Piccolo blew up a moon almost instantly with a weak blast at his weakest in the DBZ series. Superman got KOed when he flew into a moon and blew it up. Moon blew up in both instances. You can do the rest of the math here.

#202 Posted by Nessy3 (85 posts) - - Show Bio

Big problem is that on comicvine you need feats for everything, which may be fine for comic characters but in many anime shows, and especially in dbz, a > b > c logic applies.

If a character can destroy a city, a stronger character can also destroy a city. Same for planets, solar systems, galaxies, universes, multiverses, omniverses, dimensions, realities, and just about any other word that is used to try to make things sound big.

It's amazing how many times I've heard the whole "Goku has never destroyed a planet" crap, which is the weakest argument I have ever heard.

#203 Edited by MirrorWave4 (1099 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't see Superman holding a candle to SSJ1

- Goku in base form is light speed

- SSJ1 is 50x FTL

- SSJG would be at least 4,000 FTL

Superman fans need to stop the Wank!

#204 Edited by SMXLR8 (1422 posts) - - Show Bio
#205 Posted by SlimJ87D (9651 posts) - - Show Bio

@nessy3 said:

Big problem is that on comicvine you need feats for everything, which may be fine for comic characters but in many anime shows, and especially in dbz, a > b > c logic applies.

If a character can destroy a city, a stronger character can also destroy a city. Same for planets, solar systems, galaxies, universes, multiverses, omniverses, dimensions, realities, and just about any other word that is used to try to make things sound big.

It's amazing how many times I've heard the whole "Goku has never destroyed a planet" crap, which is the weakest argument I have ever heard.

That's not true. Go read the rules, narratives, databook entries and comments from the writers count too.

DBZ characters do have feats, it just takes a little to think about them but when it doesn't support some peoples arguments they like to argue against it for that reason.

Again, here's a simple example, DBZ characters fight as fast as they fly. Goku was on the other side of Namek when he sensed where Frieza was about to kill Vegeta. The moment Frieza was about to strike, Goku flew completely half way around and landed in front of them. That is at least 1/14 the speed of light as Namek is around the same size as or larger than Earth. This was base Goku as well. You point this out to someone that tries to claim DBZ characters are slow and they won't want to accept it.

There's still Piccolo blowing the moon up almost instantly also. An attack that many people have dodged. There's still the fact that Goku as a kid and teen was able to move so fast the human eye could not see. Not even Kami could see, and he is a enhanced. For a man sized object to move and disappear completely would have to by in the higher hyper sonic areas. This is at their slowest in the whole series.

Again, you point this out to someone that doesn't want to believe DBZ characters are fast and they won't accept it.

It's just that people don't want to accept.

#206 Edited by SMXLR8 (1422 posts) - - Show Bio
#207 Edited by Batman242 (4860 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: I know heat vision isn't light speed, never said that. I said in the way it's used, Goku probably wouldn't see it coming. Goku would dodge it from far, yes, but what about 20 ft distance? I see him dodging it, yes, but what if he gets hit is what I'm mainly trying to understand. I don't think Goku can withstand that.

In that scan, they both seem to be speeding and then Superman shoots the heat vision. Of course Flash is faster than it. That doesn't suggest Goku is faster than it or that he can dodge it up close.

When it comes to the Z fighters' Ki blasts, they have to charge up at least for a second, or do something distinctive, showing they're about to do something.

Granted, Flash was playing around and circling him, it's still someone much faster than Goku he hit.

#208 Posted by Batman242 (4860 posts) - - Show Bio

@batman242: so frieza is as strong as cell? I DONT THINK SO. and kid buu destroyed a galaxy, so to answer your question, yes... yes buu is a ss buster.

I never said Freiza was as strong as Cell. I asked a question.

#209 Posted by russellmania77 (14969 posts) - - Show Bio

@batman242: well he would have to be as strong as cell to do so. so i did answer your question. you just cant accept it

#210 Edited by Batman242 (4860 posts) - - Show Bio

@russellmania77 said:

@batman242: well he would have to be as strong as cell to do so. so i did answer your question. you just cant accept it

Accept what? What are you talking about? I asked if Buu and Freiza are potential SS busters, you said Buu is and Freiza isn't I didn't argue with that.

#211 Posted by SlimJ87D (9651 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: I know heat vision isn't light speed, never said that. I said in the way it's used, Goku probably wouldn't see it coming. Goku would dodge it from far, yes, but what about 20 ft distance? I see him dodging it, yes, but what if he gets hit is what I'm mainly trying to understand. I don't think Goku can withstand that.

In that scan, they both seem to be speeding and then Superman shoots the heat vision. Of course Flash is faster than it. That doesn't suggest Goku is faster than it or that he can dodge it up close.

When it comes to the Z fighters' Ki blasts, they have to charge up at least for a second, or do something distinctive, showing they're about to do something.

Granted, Flash was playing around and circling him, it's still someone much faster than Goku he hit.

The point is, Goku can teleport instantly behind Superman. Goku could easily perform a moon busting feat like Piccolo did. So just as much as Superman can heat vision Goku, Goku could teleport behind him and moon bust blast him.

Piccolo did not charge his blast when he busted the moon. And you also need to keep in mind that DBZ attacks, although being charged, aren't happening in real time. When they fight they exist ina different time period all together. You think that Goku using Kaioken was just standing there but in reality read this scan.

Kaioken only lasts for a heart beat.

#213 Edited by Batman242 (4860 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: Can't Superman speed up his thoughts?

Now that sounds like a cowards way out of this. and doesn't prove anything much if Superman can't see such a thing coming right? Okay, Goku would never do that, and I'm pretty sure you know that, bloodlusted or not. He likes the challenge, it's his downfall and why he can't finish lots of fights and needs help in the end.

#214 Posted by ULTRAstarkiller (6102 posts) - - Show Bio

Where can I watch the movie at I'm not in Japan?

#215 Posted by Nessy3 (85 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: Clearly you have not understood what I said. I didn't say that DBZ characters don't have feats, I said that A>B>C logic works in dbz well, and if one character with a generic ki black can destroy a planet, a stronger character can destroy the planet by making a similar or more powerful one. The forum rules specifically mention that feats are required, and because of this people seem to think that they can argue that since Goku has never destroyed a planet, that he can't.

DBZ characters have feats, but only a few years of feats, vs some 7 decades or so of superman feats. Naturally if you're comparing two sets of data the peaks and troughs in the larger data set will be more extreme.

What I am saying is that 2 characters that are 100% equal in power, give character A 10 times more issues than B and A will have some better showings, and thus on this forum will win. This is because everybody only seems to pick the highest end feats and ignore average/low showings, giving a clear advantage to the character with more issues.

#216 Posted by SlimJ87D (9651 posts) - - Show Bio

@nessy3 said:

@slimj87d: Clearly you have not understood what I said. I didn't say that DBZ characters don't have feats, I said that A>B>C logic works in dbz well, and if one character with a generic ki black can destroy a planet, a stronger character can destroy the planet by making a similar or more powerful one. The forum rules specifically mention that feats are required, and because of this people seem to think that they can argue that since Goku has never destroyed a planet, that he can't.

DBZ characters have feats, but only a few years of feats, vs some 7 decades or so of superman feats. Naturally if you're comparing two sets of data the peaks and troughs in the larger data set will be more extreme.

What I am saying is that 2 characters that are 100% equal in power, give character A 10 times more issues than B and A will have some better showings, and thus on this forum will win. This is because everybody only seems to pick the highest end feats and ignore average/low showings, giving a clear advantage to the character with more issues.

I really don't care what you have to say at this point. I was clearly adding to your post. Whatever way you took it is on you.

#217 Posted by Tohoma (1408 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d said:

That's not true. Go read the rules, narratives, databook entries and comments from the writers count too.

DBZ characters do have feats, it just takes a little to think about them but when it doesn't support some peoples arguments they like to argue against it for that reason.

Again, here's a simple example, DBZ characters fight as fast as they fly. Goku was on the other side of Namek when he sensed where Frieza was about to kill Vegeta. The moment Frieza was about to strike, Goku flew completely half way around and landed in front of them. That is at least 1/14 the speed of light as Namek is around the same size as or larger than Earth. This was base Goku as well. You point this out to someone that tries to claim DBZ characters are slow and they won't want to accept it.

There's still Piccolo blowing the moon up almost instantly also. An attack that many people have dodged. There's still the fact that Goku as a kid and teen was able to move so fast the human eye could not see. Not even Kami could see, and he is a enhanced. For a man sized object to move and disappear completely would have to by in the higher hyper sonic areas. This is at their slowest in the whole series.

Again, you point this out to someone that doesn't want to believe DBZ characters are fast and they won't accept it.

It's just that people don't want to accept.

QFT -__- sadly

#218 Posted by Theorder14 (1446 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimj87d: I know heat vision isn't light speed, never said that. I said in the way it's used, Goku probably wouldn't see it coming. Goku would dodge it from far, yes, but what about 20 ft distance? I see him dodging it, yes, but what if he gets hit is what I'm mainly trying to understand. I don't think Goku can withstand that.

In that scan, they both seem to be speeding and then Superman shoots the heat vision. Of course Flash is faster than it. That doesn't suggest Goku is faster than it or that he can dodge it up close.

When it comes to the Z fighters' Ki blasts, they have to charge up at least for a second, or do something distinctive, showing they're about to do something.

Granted, Flash was playing around and circling him, it's still someone much faster than Goku he hit.

I highly doubt heat vision would be able to tag SSJ1 Goku and above. He's shown to react,deflect and dodge FTL beams countless times and heat vision is slower.Did Barry Allen ever run at light speed in new 52 yet? haven't read the latest Flash comics. Not all FTL beams requires to charge up.

#219 Edited by Batman242 (4860 posts) - - Show Bio

@theorder14: It's not like I'm saying Superman is going to use it from far, I'm saying he'd use it up close. Like when he blitzes. He just circles his enemies while punching and using heat vision and freeze breath. Barry hasn't even had an encounter with the heat vision, but no, according to my knowledge he hasn't reached light speed yet.

#220 Posted by Theorder14 (1446 posts) - - Show Bio

@theorder14: It's not like I'm saying Superman is going to use it from far, I'm saying he'd use it up close. Like when he blitzes. He just circles his enemies while punching and using heat vision and freeze breath. Barry hasn't even had an encounter with the heat vision, but no, according to my knowledge he hasn't reached light speed yet.

I doubt it would tag him up close too. High skilled martial artis like Karate Kid, Goku and Iron fist use prediction, precision and timing. + Goku have shown to dodge and deflect FTL beams up close.

#221 Edited by DanM (133 posts) - - Show Bio

Perhaps a realistic compromise could be reached for the superman vs goku debate. Morals on, in character battles between the two, will and should lean towards goku for the majority. Goku is the superior battle tactician and warrior, as I said before, he was battling armies and other wordily beings while clark was off doing chores on the farm. In addition to the huge gap in martial arts and actual battle experience there is his use of instant transmission not to mention his energy kia attacks, which very well could fall under the magic category which I believe superman is susceptible to, at least he was not sure if that's still the case. Contrary to what some believe, goku is fast enough to tag a non blood lusted superman. There isn't much stopping goku from sensing supermans power, teleporting behind him and hitting him with a magically charged super dragon fist for example, which could very well and probably would put him down for the count. Now if both are blood lusted, well DBZ fans just need to realize and accept that if superman is committed and willing to go at 100%, goku or anybody else for that matter in DBZ is more then likely going to lose as sups is one of the most overpowered heros to have ever been created. Hopefully people can come to accept this and we can see a end to these countless threads and insane fans who are to wrapped up in their own world to accept reality.