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#151 Posted by AnotherVillain (33 posts) - - Show Bio

@anothervillain: Yeah that was GT and I watched that fight yesterday. That fight was THE stupidest fight in that show I've ever watched. It has PIS. They had the perfect chance to kill Goku while he was frozen in the ice, but oh, they hesitate because the ice is melting. Why would you care that the ice is melting if you're about to kill the guy?

They say Cell has enough Ki to blow up a solar system, but he never shows such an ability.

GT wasn't even canon, so that doesn't count. If you can call on GT for feats, I can easily just use Kingdom Come, All-Star Superman and Superman Prime...

uh.. how does it not count? GT, Z, dragonball, all the movies, they all focus on ONE goku unlike superman.. you cant call KC supes or AS supes or prime 1 mill since theyre all different supermen

#152 Edited by TifaLockhart (14117 posts) - - Show Bio

Most of the movies are out of continuity.

#153 Edited by Batman242 (4862 posts) - - Show Bio

@anothervillain:

Most of the movies are out of continuity.

There you have it. GT is out of the continuity and so are most of the movies. That's like me using Dark Knight Returns, where Batman beat Superman to say he lost to Batman.... it doesn't count, because it's out of the continuity.

#154 Posted by Theorder14 (1586 posts) - - Show Bio

@theorder14: i'm pretty sure lighting bolts isn't FTL and he dodged yes. but i was asking for combat speed feats. i mean, Batman have fought KK, does that mean Batman's combat speed and reflexes is light speed?

Batman fought KK, and he didn't land a single blow, and he had his belt taken. I can provide scans for this if you need them. Another thing is, characters often don't utilize their speed in battles due to plot elements. Hulk tags Silver Surfer every time they fight, and Surfer has nanosecond reaction time and can travel light years in under a second.

i've seen bits of the movie and got a statement that Billis is MFTL but we will have to wait for the subtitles to get the whole picture. btw u haven't proven Superman can fight in FTL yet and now ur asking for scans >.> i know Superman is fast but i don't think he's FTL in combat speed. i mean, wasn't it already stated that he can't think properly when he's at that speed?

scans coming up in a hour or so

Edit: Here's some scans showing how he deals with beams for now

Thank you for these, alot, you are the second person to actually provide scans so far. But im questioning what you consider FTL combat speed. I can show you lots of scans of Superman dodging lasers and beams like above, i have actually showed you one so far. you claimed that hese are not combat feats, and do not prove that Superman con move FTL. But when i ask you for combat feats, they are similar to mine.

They can both dodge/ block lasers and beams, they can essentially both move FTL. And it has literally never stated that Superman has trouble thinking when he is at that speed. On one occasion, he sped up to match the speed of Wally West (fastest flash to ever live). He had absolutely no problem thinking, and the world actually looked like it had rozen in place around him.

He is perfectly capable of thinking at such speeds.

Thank you for the feats, and sorry if i seemed arrogant/ rude before. I was getting a lot of talk from everyone, and not alot of feats at all.

Well, i still find it hard to believe that KK, a human is able to move at light speed and was it ever stated he could move FTL?

In my very first comment in this thread, i said Billis is a MFTL and then his combat speed should be at least FTL. SSG Goku who fought Billis would be at a similiar speed but that's just speculation on my part. That's why in my first comment i said that we should wait for the movie to come out first to be certain.

I think we can all agree that when Goku's ki increase his overall stats increase to as it's been shown numerous times. Those scans is just to show how Goku pre movie deals with FTL attacks. Supermans travel speed is faster but Gokus combat speed is definitely superior than his. In that scan was it ever stated how fast they went? because i can show you a scan where he mention that his *mind* is left behind when he fly FTL. But if you happen to have a scan of Superman fighting in FTL then do show it pls.

#155 Edited by Theorder14 (1586 posts) - - Show Bio

@batman242 said:

@theorder14 said:

@batman242: Alright, but can't Goku sense him coming? He can feel Supermans movement and the air current so i doubt Superman could blitz him. but yea, we will have to wait for the movie to get the whole picture

Superman can do just about the same. He has that super hearing. How many times has Goku's senses helped him in a fight?

It helped him during tenkaichi and Yakon. I'm sure there's more but i don't remember every detail and battle Goku have fought.

Base form Goku have dodged and deflected FTL attacks and he can sense his opponents every movement so i'm pretty sure he could avoid Supermans blitz

#156 Edited by Universalshadow (33 posts) - - Show Bio

@batman242: Goku's senses helped him fight Yakon in absolute darkness

As for SSJG Goku this is all the footage of him that's been leaked online so far.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4jKgFIaq1M

He gets kicked across the globe and through some mountains by Bills. We still don't know the full extent of his power.

#157 Posted by THC (367 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@danm said:

I can see why some on here give DBZ fans a hard time as many can be quite delusional at times, but with that being said, many also fail to realize and acknowledge many key points. First and foremost being, if in character, superman hardly If ever starts out full force unless under certain extreme circumstances so if the battle starts out something like they are both a hundred yards away from another or what have you then you can basically make no valid argument for him performing a speed blitz, throwing him into the sun or any other extreme, out of character responses typically given for his win as its not his character given normal battle circumstances. Now goku is much more of a actual warrior then superman is, while clark was off performing farm chores and running around trying to snap the perfect photograph, goku was battling armies and other wordily beings, the technical fighting aspect is heavily in his favor not to mention battle sense and strategy, he is far more efficient and experienced in these things. A more realistic approach to this battle would be superman approaching goku while holding back a great deal, now goku can also sense energy levels so he would know how powerful superman was way before superman had any idea who he was up against. So a feeling out approach to a unknown enemy compared to a battle hardened warrior knowing what he's up against and having enough practical knowledge to take advantage of the situation. This has always seemed much more likely in my mind.

Both fighters are bloodlusted, so what they would normally do is irrelevant.

The more likely scenario is Superman just instantly lobotomizes Goku.

As a child Goku resisted Master Roshi's 20,000V lightning strikes for about five minutes straight. I'm not certain how hot Superman's Heat Vision is, but lightning burns six times hotter than the surface of the sun and kid Goku resisted that for minutes. Also Bills throws Goku into the Sun in Battle of Gods if I'm not mistaken.

danm is right about Goku having a sensory advantage as well. Superman's sight, hearing, and other base senses are arguably as good or better than Goku's, but Goku has a very distinct battle-refined atmospheric sense that works in tandem with muscle memory reflexes that allow him to operate at nigh-light speeds while unpowered; as well as the ability to sense the ki of any living creature, allowing him to sense them while travelling FTL in combat or travel, or even across the universe. But not only will Goku know from the start of the fight exactly how powerful Superman is, he will know his intentions as well:

As you can see from that video it's irrelevant which part of the body is being boosted by ki, whether it's their fist, a sword, or a finger; what's important is the strength of the ki itself. Obviously, they boost their entire bodies during battle and Superman would not find Goku's eyeball any easier to penetrate than his finger or his chest.

The best I've seen for Superman's Heat Vision is not even planet-busting, and certainly not even close to multi-planet busting. Vegeta was above planetary durability by his first appearance in base form.

Does Superman have any feats that put his Heat Vision above even the Androids' Heat Vision in destruction?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Those who say Frieza couldn't have simply vaporized Planet Vegeta by increasing his Supernova's surface area, but rather vaporized Planet Vegeta's core causing it to implode (which would take hours) are grasping at straws to reject common sense:

-By the time the Supernova actually hit the planet it was gone in seconds.

-Frieza visibly enjoyed the prospect of exploding the planet as opposed to disintegrating it

-The Supernova was aimed at Bardock, who was on the verge of becoming a Super Saiyan, and was really the sole reason for Frieza's decision to wipe out the Saiyan race.

[Note: this is not so much common knowledge; the Supernova didn't even kill Bardock as Frieza intended, as he is inexplicably sent back in time and ends up facing off against one of Frieza's ancestors - and becoming the Legendary Super Saiyan that untold centuries later, Frieza fears, the reason for trying to kill Bardock in the first place.]

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have seen Superman's feat of covering a planet in his heat vision, though it appears it is not instantly incinerating the planet, as one would expect if the vision were uniformly many times hotter than the core of the sun. This indicates that increasing the volume of his beam puts stress on the uniform power of it, unless the scan is just an action shot as he melts away the planet. Either way the feat is comparable to Frieza destroying Planet Vegeta in six seconds:

I have seen Superman's feat of splitting a sea with his Heat Vision, and, while it seems slightly more powerful and with far superior range, it is still highly comparable to Roshi's level of power, which is moon busting:

And I don't see it having any more effect than the Android's did on Vegeta:

Superman needs feats far above planet-busting, because planet-busting durability and power was covered by Vegeta and Goku in their first fight.

The Spirit Bomb is assessed by King Kai, the master of the technique, such that if it is formed in the presence of a star and on a planet like Earth, it could destroy the planet with ease:

"The Spirit Bomb that you will form on Earth, with its innumerable lifeforms, will have immense power compared to this small one, and if the Sun happens to be up when you form the Spirit Bomb, you will be harnessing and trying to control power of indescribable magnitude, that could easily destroy the Earth if even the slightest error is made in handling it."

Goku does create such a Spirit Bomb in his fight with Vegeta and Vegeta fully tanks it at 4:35:

Before Krillin got the Spirit Bomb, Goku lost half of its energy before he could hit Vegeta with it. However the blast Vegeta tanked - at half power - would still, at the very least, blow apart half of the Earth, and probably much more.

The fact that the planet-busting Spirit Bomb is halved in power is evened out by the fact that earlier on, Vegeta tanked Goku's X4 Kaioken Kamehameha which is even more powerful than the Spirit Bomb, in addition to fighting all day long, and has visibly worn him out.

Also I like how Flash and Superman are seen exchanging words while that waitress is frozen in place yet comic fanboys find it impossible to believe that DBZ characters talk in relativistic speeds during combat as well.

#158 Edited by AnotherVillain (33 posts) - - Show Bio

@theorder14: i'm pretty sure lighting bolts isn't FTL and he dodged yes. but i was asking for combat speed feats. i mean, Batman have fought KK, does that mean Batman's combat speed and reflexes is light speed?

Batman fought KK, and he didn't land a single blow, and he had his belt taken. I can provide scans for this if you need them. Another thing is, characters often don't utilize their speed in battles due to plot elements. Hulk tags Silver Surfer every time they fight, and Surfer has nanosecond reaction time and can travel light years in under a second.

i've seen bits of the movie and got a statement that Billis is MFTL but we will have to wait for the subtitles to get the whole picture. btw u haven't proven Superman can fight in FTL yet and now ur asking for scans >.> i know Superman is fast but i don't think he's FTL in combat speed. i mean, wasn't it already stated that he can't think properly when he's at that speed?

scans coming up in a hour or so

Edit: Here's some scans showing how he deals with beams for now

Thank you for these, alot, you are the second person to actually provide scans so far. But im questioning what you consider FTL combat speed. I can show you lots of scans of Superman dodging lasers and beams like above, i have actually showed you one so far. you claimed that hese are not combat feats, and do not prove that Superman con move FTL. But when i ask you for combat feats, they are similar to mine.

They can both dodge/ block lasers and beams, they can essentially both move FTL. And it has literally never stated that Superman has trouble thinking when he is at that speed. On one occasion, he sped up to match the speed of Wally West (fastest flash to ever live). He had absolutely no problem thinking, and the world actually looked like it had rozen in place around him.

He is perfectly capable of thinking at such speeds.

Thank you for the feats, and sorry if i seemed arrogant/ rude before. I was getting a lot of talk from everyone, and not alot of feats at all.

you cant use that.. thats not new 52 supes... its ssg vs new 52 and in the new 52 in the justice league comic, bloodlusted supes cant hit the flash when they first fought.

#159 Edited by TifaLockhart (14117 posts) - - Show Bio

Dude, I thought the sea was like that because Aquaman destroyed an Imperiex Probe? It's been awhile since I read OWAW.

#160 Posted by Doomnaut (1994 posts) - - Show Bio

#161 Posted by Universalshadow (33 posts) - - Show Bio

@thc: I really don't think Bills through Goku into the sun :/

#162 Posted by Theorder14 (1586 posts) - - Show Bio

@doomnaut said:

huh!?! Yamcha is that you :P

#163 Posted by THC (367 posts) - - Show Bio

@thc: I really don't think Bills through Goku into the sun :/

Have you seen the movie? If someone who has can confirm it never happened, or confirm it did, that would be great. Otherwise, 0:06:

#164 Posted by Batman242 (4862 posts) - - Show Bio

@calebhara said:

@theorder14: i'm pretty sure lighting bolts isn't FTL and he dodged yes. but i was asking for combat speed feats. i mean, Batman have fought KK, does that mean Batman's combat speed and reflexes is light speed?

Batman fought KK, and he didn't land a single blow, and he had his belt taken. I can provide scans for this if you need them. Another thing is, characters often don't utilize their speed in battles due to plot elements. Hulk tags Silver Surfer every time they fight, and Surfer has nanosecond reaction time and can travel light years in under a second.

i've seen bits of the movie and got a statement that Billis is MFTL but we will have to wait for the subtitles to get the whole picture. btw u haven't proven Superman can fight in FTL yet and now ur asking for scans >.> i know Superman is fast but i don't think he's FTL in combat speed. i mean, wasn't it already stated that he can't think properly when he's at that speed?

scans coming up in a hour or so

Edit: Here's some scans showing how he deals with beams for now

Thank you for these, alot, you are the second person to actually provide scans so far. But im questioning what you consider FTL combat speed. I can show you lots of scans of Superman dodging lasers and beams like above, i have actually showed you one so far. you claimed that hese are not combat feats, and do not prove that Superman con move FTL. But when i ask you for combat feats, they are similar to mine.

They can both dodge/ block lasers and beams, they can essentially both move FTL. And it has literally never stated that Superman has trouble thinking when he is at that speed. On one occasion, he sped up to match the speed of Wally West (fastest flash to ever live). He had absolutely no problem thinking, and the world actually looked like it had rozen in place around him.

He is perfectly capable of thinking at such speeds.

Thank you for the feats, and sorry if i seemed arrogant/ rude before. I was getting a lot of talk from everyone, and not alot of feats at all.

you cant use that.. thats not new 52 supes... its ssg vs new 52 and in the new 52 in the justice league comic, bloodlusted supes cant hit the flash when they first fought.

You mean this? I mean granted, Flash was just playing around, Superman did in fact, tag Flash. Superman wasn't bloodlusted either.

#165 Edited by Theorder14 (1586 posts) - - Show Bio

@thc said:

@universalshadow said:

@thc: I really don't think Bills through Goku into the sun :/

Have you seen the movie? If someone who has can confirm it never happened, or confirm it did, that would be great. Otherwise, 0:06:

Lol, That's not the sun, it's Billis super energy sphere. As for how powerful it is, we will have to wait for the movie

#166 Posted by ImmortalOne (3519 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't get how people are now thinking SSJG = Regular Goku victory over Superman, because you need 6 purehearted Saiyans to actually achieve it. Goku can't achieve it under his own power.

#167 Posted by Batman242 (4862 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't get how people are now thinking SSJG = Regular Goku victory over Superman, because you need 6 purehearted Saiyans to actually achieve it. Goku can't achieve it under his own power.

So basically he needs outside help again? That's basically how he always wins a fight.

#168 Edited by Theorder14 (1586 posts) - - Show Bio

@immortalone said:

I don't get how people are now thinking SSJG = Regular Goku victory over Superman, because you need 6 purehearted Saiyans to actually achieve it. Goku can't achieve it under his own power.

So basically he needs outside help again? That's basically how he always wins a fight.

Acually, he only required the heart of 6 pure saiyans once, after he reverted back to normal form he learned on his own how to use SSG powers and abilitites, it's not as powerful in SSG mode but strong enough i believe. we will just have to wait for the movie to get the whole picture like i mentioned

#169 Edited by russellmania77 (15753 posts) - - Show Bio

@bossmonster: versions of goku? GT wasnt originally supposed to be an alternate universe, ok dbz fanboys do that, just like superman fanboys just say "superman one punch" no proof or nothing, and ya alot of people used to put different versions of supes against goku, you can you tube it, pre-crisis superman vs ssj3 goku or boy prime vs ssj3 goku. now them thinking that regular superman cant beat goku, they put him against unbelievable shit 70 years in the making, after that long of writing for someone, you either gotta make him stronger or weaker (or make him resign his citizenship) revamp after revamp just to keep people interested, no matter what kind of compelling argument dbz fans make, supermaniacs wont like it than start to bring up different versions of supes instead of using canon. but fine if you really want it so very fair than lets just do Golden age superman vs Dragonball goku.

and btw about the heat vision lobotomy thing, goku can sense energy and move...

#170 Posted by Universalshadow (33 posts) - - Show Bio

@batman242: Read Dragon Ball Part 1, Goku handles most of the major villains on his own.

Also Goku kinda 'absorbs the super saiyan god's realm of power' and so he keeps the majority of the SSJG power without the need of outside help.

#171 Posted by SlimJ87D (10557 posts) - - Show Bio

@theorder14: i'm pretty sure lighting bolts isn't FTL and he dodged yes. but i was asking for combat speed feats. i mean, Batman have fought KK, does that mean Batman's combat speed and reflexes is light speed?

Batman fought KK, and he didn't land a single blow, and he had his belt taken. I can provide scans for this if you need them. Another thing is, characters often don't utilize their speed in battles due to plot elements. Hulk tags Silver Surfer every time they fight, and Surfer has nanosecond reaction time and can travel light years in under a second.

i've seen bits of the movie and got a statement that Billis is MFTL but we will have to wait for the subtitles to get the whole picture. btw u haven't proven Superman can fight in FTL yet and now ur asking for scans >.> i know Superman is fast but i don't think he's FTL in combat speed. i mean, wasn't it already stated that he can't think properly when he's at that speed?

scans coming up in a hour or so

Edit: Here's some scans showing how he deals with beams for now

Thank you for these, alot, you are the second person to actually provide scans so far. But im questioning what you consider FTL combat speed. I can show you lots of scans of Superman dodging lasers and beams like above, i have actually showed you one so far. you claimed that hese are not combat feats, and do not prove that Superman con move FTL. But when i ask you for combat feats, they are similar to mine.

They can both dodge/ block lasers and beams, they can essentially both move FTL. And it has literally never stated that Superman has trouble thinking when he is at that speed. On one occasion, he sped up to match the speed of Wally West (fastest flash to ever live). He had absolutely no problem thinking, and the world actually looked like it had rozen in place around him.

He is perfectly capable of thinking at such speeds.

Thank you for the feats, and sorry if i seemed arrogant/ rude before. I was getting a lot of talk from everyone, and not alot of feats at all.

This scan is being taken out of context. First off, this isn't Wally West, it's Barry Allen.

Second, Barry was only moving a fraction of his speed when Superman caught him. If you read the issue Superman says that Wally is moving at around hypersonic speeds and he struggles and barely catches Barry.

In Barry's own series he later tells Clark everytime they raced he was running for charity and smokes him.

#172 Posted by Batman242 (4862 posts) - - Show Bio

@batman242: Read Dragon Ball Part 1, Goku handles most of the major villains on his own.

Also Goku kinda 'absorbs the super saiyan god's realm of power' and so he keeps the majority of the SSJG power without the need of outside help.

Yea, in Dragon Ball he did. In Dragon Ball Z, he used help lots.

#173 Posted by Bossmonster (2339 posts) - - Show Bio

@bossmonster: versions of goku? GT wasnt originally supposed to be an alternate universe, ok dbz fanboys do that, just like superman fanboys just say "superman one punch" no proof or nothing, and ya alot of people used to put different versions of supes against goku, you can you tube it, pre-crisis superman vs ssj3 goku or boy prime vs ssj3 goku. now them thinking that regular superman cant beat goku, they put him against unbelievable shit 70 years in the making, after that long of writing for someone, you either gotta make him stronger or weaker (or make him resign his citizenship) revamp after revamp just to keep people interested, no matter what kind of compelling argument dbz fans make, supermaniacs wont like it than start to bring up different versions of supes instead of using canon. but fine if you really want it so very fair than lets just do Golden age superman vs Dragonball goku.

and btw about the heat vision lobotomy thing, goku can sense energy and move...

First off, I'm not going to argue if GA Clarks Stands with DB Goku. I'm also not trying to argue New 52- vs SSJG. He is my point.
Goku has different forms or "versions." Base. SSJ. SSJ2 ect. All these threads are Goku version mega badass vs Lame-o Superman. None one ever says "S.A. Superman vs SSJ3 Goku." You never see it. Because it's a clear stomp. You never see "Pre crisis Superman vs SSJ2 Goku" Again clear Stomp. You don't even See "Pre crisis Superman SSJ3 Goku." Too me still a stomp, but maybe closer of a physical fight.
So why do people keep making this match up. New 52 is not developed enough. He is one of the weakest version but only because of his current lack of showings. The reason is that is how bad "fan boys" want Goku to win. What's funny is that do Goku the biggest injustice putting him against weaker types of superman. That's just slightly comical to me.

But the real deal is this. If you look at the Different types of Goku and different types of Superman, there is no way to ever match them up fairly. 9/10 Superman will stomp Goku into the ground. That's just a fact. So, right now, everyone's idea is new 52 vs Goku.
Despite the fact that maybe 12 months from now there will be enough development to show that, like always, Goku will get crushed, SSJG or not. So, I'm really just sick of seeing it.

Especially since, there will always be at least one version of Superman that will man handle Goku. So, why does it matter if Goku can beat New 52 Clark. When at the end of the day, at his strongest, Superman will kill him with ease.

#174 Edited by Nessy3 (94 posts) - - Show Bio

@bossmonster said:

First off, I'm not going to argue if GA Clarks Stands with DB Goku. I'm also not trying to argue New 52- vs SSJG. He is my point.

Goku has different forms or "versions." Base. SSJ. SSJ2 ect. All these threads are Goku version mega badass vs Lame-o Superman. None one ever says "S.A. Superman vs SSJ3 Goku." You never see it. Because it's a clear stomp. You never see "Pre crisis Superman vs SSJ2 Goku" Again clear Stomp. You don't even See "Pre crisis Superman SSJ3 Goku." Too me still a stomp, but maybe closer of a physical fight.

So why do people keep making this match up. New 52 is not developed enough. He is one of the weakest version but only because of his current lack of showings. The reason is that is how bad "fan boys" want Goku to win. What's funny is that do Goku the biggest injustice putting him against weaker types of superman. That's just slightly comical to me.

But the real deal is this. If you look at the Different types of Goku and different types of Superman, there is no way to ever match them up fairly. 9/10 Superman will stomp Goku into the ground. That's just a fact. So, right now, everyone's idea is new 52 vs Goku.

Despite the fact that maybe 12 months from now there will be enough development to show that, like always, Goku will get crushed, SSJG or not. So, I'm really just sick of seeing it.

Especially since, there will always be at least one version of Superman that will man handle Goku. So, why does it matter if Goku can beat New 52 Clark. When at the end of the day, at his strongest, Superman will kill him with ease.

Your logic is awful, and the exact opposite of the way the battle forums work. Why would someone make a thread of SA Superman vs Goku if it's a clear stomp? It's about making battles that people can actually argue for either side, a logical and unbiased argument.

Your way of thinking seems to be to use the battle forums to further some sort of weird fetish you get from a comic book character being able to defeat another.

Basically it's like someone coming to me and saying "who would win, Darkseid or Thanos" and me responding with "WTF WHY BASE THANOS, WHY NOT DARKSEID VS THANOS WITH THE HOTU".

That's not the only problem, the thing is that Goku from ssj 1 to 3, and this new transformation are infact the same character, SA superman, SP1M and 52 superman are all parts of different continuities.

#175 Posted by Alexman113 (487 posts) - - Show Bio

@nessy3: He is right in the sense that this debate is hard to do because New 52 Superman doesn't really have any durability feats yet. We know he is physically stronger than pre-flashpoint by lifting the Earth's weight for 5 days and only breaking a sweat because he was out of the sun for that time, but we still don't know what it would take to knock him out. In a year, this might be a good debate, but as of now, there is too much speculation.

#176 Edited by Bossmonster (2339 posts) - - Show Bio

@nessy3:

my logic is fine. You just can't read. This part

"First off, I'm not going to argue if GA Clarks Stands with DB Goku. I'm also not trying to argue New 52- vs SSJG. He is my point."

I went on to say

"All these threads are Goku version mega badass vs Lame-o Superman."

If you think about it, the above matches up with what you in the below

Why would someone make a thread of SA Superman vs Goku if it's a clear stomp

So what trash thinking are you on?

I follow all this up by saying

So why do people keep making this match up. New 52 is not developed enough. He is one of the weakest version but only because of his current lack of showings.

What is the point of throwing a completely developed character at a much lesser developed one (Given that New 52 superman is being used as a superman all his own with none of his old feats) Simple just so people can say he loses to Goku. Why does that matter when Prime could stomp Goku anytime any where with any amount of help he could dream of.

The only person that's got a fetish is you. Wanting to Keyboard cowboy me because you can't see me. Everything I said speaks to the true, but unneeded point you were trying to make, but you're too much of a fan boy to see that. If people want to some thing to debate, why not put SSJG against Prime? Or All Star? That would be a true test of Goku's new powers. Not the under developed New-52 Clark. That's just stupid.

Also, people throw around New, Pre crisis, Silver age, like they aren't the same person. The same with SSJ1, Base form and SSJG. I said different version, because the way the threads are made, one would think they are. Even though they are all the same character.

#177 Edited by Nessy3 (94 posts) - - Show Bio

You say that it's always the most powerful "version" of goku vs the weakest of superman?

@bossmonster said:

Goku has different forms or "versions." Base. SSJ. SSJ2 ect. All these threads are Goku version mega badass vs Lame-o Superman. None one ever says "S.A. Superman vs SSJ3 Goku." You never see it. Because it's a clear stomp. You never see "Pre crisis Superman vs SSJ2 Goku" Again clear Stomp. You don't even See "Pre crisis Superman SSJ3 Goku." Too me still a stomp, but maybe closer of a physical fight.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/ssj4-goku-vs-superman-26792/

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/ss4-goku-vs-superman-prime-421687/

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/superman-prime-1million-vs-goku-687576/

Clearly you are blind to this, people pick the new superman because he is current, strange how you couldn't understand that. Most threads consist of current versions.

Either way, here I have shown you goku vs sp1m, prime, and silver age. You have been proven wrong with a simple google search that took less than half a minute.

Here is some obvious bias.

@bossmonster said:

Despite the fact that maybe 12 months from now there will be enough development to show that, like always, Goku will get crushed, SSJG or not

#178 Posted by xeon1cs (1480 posts) - - Show Bio

@anothervillain: Superman wasn't even bloodlusted when he first encountered Flash, and that was also 5 years in the past.

Superman has been clocked at like 300x FTL for travel speed so far. He literally just slams into Goku and turns him to paste.

#179 Edited by terry2012 (5738 posts) - - Show Bio

@theorder14: Yes he is faster than light speed. Because Goku had to use Instant Transmission just to keep up with bills.

#180 Posted by Bossmonster (2339 posts) - - Show Bio

@nessy3:

Are you impeded??? Did you really prove me wrong?

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/ssj4-goku-vs-superman-26792/<----- four years ago

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/ss4-goku-vs-superman-prime-421687/ < 3 years ago

The last link was at least slightly current. I totally of 7 months old and lock without discussion.

As opposed to the numerous amount of links that have popped up in just the last few few months.

All you proved is I don't google search stupid things.

Blind to what? Most threads consist of who now?? The only reason that would be true is because based of the forum rules if not stated otherwise, it is assumed current version. When the reality is only seasoned at debate will even know the difference.

You brought up threads for four years ago to off set me, yet fail to realize the actually facts of the matter. Lets say you are right (which you are not) in that the reason new - 52 is used is because he is the "current" Superman. Then my point still holds true in that they are using the less developed Superman against a fully developed character which does not make sense, it's not a fair test. It's completely bias. Instead, a true test of both characters would be SSJ 1 vs New-52. That would make more sense as they are closer in development. What sense does it make to throw S.A Superman against Saiyan Saga Goku? That would be dumb. Or Smallville Superman vs SSJ4 Goku?? That is dumb.

What's funny is you went from

Your logic is awful, and the exact opposite of the way the battle forums work. Why would someone make a thread of SA Superman vs Goku if it's a clear stomp? It's about making battles that people can actually argue for either side, a logical and unbiased argument.

Which is just foolish and actually the exact opposite of what I'm saying. Which is the primary reason I question you reading comprehension skills. To posting 4 year old links to prove that from time to time people do eactly what I say shouldn't happen and put an version of Superman against a Goku that he would crush. Still missing the point there, huh big guy?

obvious bias.

Try historical fact. As I have said before, I'm done debating Clark vs Goku. It's over and done with. But as Superman develops, like always he goes from "More powerful than a Locomotive" to "Planet cracker" and evolves into "Reality puncher" and some times "Life creator"

It's a simple as that. Supermans High end feats make Goku's High end feats look silly. Which is why I say, after some development, Superman will be back to battleing people through star cores, in krypotnite fields, that exploded as hard as the big bang only to fly backward in time off speed alone to battle a dark power that can destroy the multi- verse.

But yeah, I'm bias...........

#181 Posted by Nessy3 (94 posts) - - Show Bio

@nessy3:

But yeah, I'm bias...........

That's exactly my point.

Either way, you can find absolutely tons of all different versions of superman vs goku threads, I merely picked the first ones that came up on google, feel free to type them into the search box on this site.

Also of course the character that has been around for some 70 or so years will have more high-end feats, that just what happens, he also has many more embarrassingly low-end feats than goku for the same reason. If people compared both characters lowest points to one another as oppose to picking only their absolute best (which gives the character with a larger base an obvious mathematical advantage) then you will end up with seeing that the only reason that superman seems invincible is because people specifically pick the feats in which he does something ridiculous, which is bound to happen over such a long life span.

And as I've said before, I am not a dbz fan, I do not think it is a good anime and I have not read the manga. I'm just not one of these people that seems to think that dbz fans are the only biased ones.

#182 Posted by DanM (133 posts) - - Show Bio

@danm said:

I can see why some on here give DBZ fans a hard time as many can be quite delusional at times, but with that being said, many also fail to realize and acknowledge many key points. First and foremost being, if in character, superman hardly If ever starts out full force unless under certain extreme circumstances so if the battle starts out something like they are both a hundred yards away from another or what have you then you can basically make no valid argument for him performing a speed blitz, throwing him into the sun or any other extreme, out of character responses typically given for his win as its not his character given normal battle circumstances. Now goku is much more of a actual warrior then superman is, while clark was off performing farm chores and running around trying to snap the perfect photograph, goku was battling armies and other wordily beings, the technical fighting aspect is heavily in his favor not to mention battle sense and strategy, he is far more efficient and experienced in these things. A more realistic approach to this battle would be superman approaching goku while holding back a great deal, now goku can also sense energy levels so he would know how powerful superman was way before superman had any idea who he was up against. So a feeling out approach to a unknown enemy compared to a battle hardened warrior knowing what he's up against and having enough practical knowledge to take advantage of the situation. This has always seemed much more likely in my mind.

Both fighters are bloodlusted, so what they would normally do is irrelevant.

The more likely scenario is Superman just instantly lobotomizes Goku.

I realize here they are both bloodlusted, seeing as this is the thousandth goku vs superman thread I have seen and the most recent one I figured I would break down what I feel to be a rather large misconception with how this particular battle seems to play out in some peoples heads. In a morals on, in character battle between the two, a very strong case can be made for goku winning as in character superman is known to hold back and wont lobotomize somebody. He will be battling a opponent who will be able to sense his power and use his years of training and battle experience to take advantage of the situation. Give that scenario I would go with goku for the vast majority, though if bloodlusted and somehow aware of one another abilities I would go with superman for the majority.

#183 Edited by Omnicrono (2012 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't seen SSG Goku in action, but I can say irrevocably that Goku beats Superman. I believe SS3 Goku has enough "power" to defeat Superman, therefore SSG Goku probably does as well.

#184 Posted by Bossmonster (2339 posts) - - Show Bio

@nessy3: If you didn't know that the "I'm bias" bit was me being sarcastic then........

Seems you are ready to talk like you have some sense and stop with all the attacking and I'll follow suit.

First, I do not think Clark is invincible. It's clear that I don't think Goku can beat him, but I know clark is beatable.

Second, you are again making my point. Superman, as a whole is far beyond Goku. I think it's just a silly match up. Because at his best, Superman is "Invincible" for Goku. He just is. This is why people say "this version" or "that version" vs Goku. My question to that is, why does it matter? Why debate Goku defeating a dumbed down character. Hell, Goku wouldn't even want that. He'd "Want to fight him at his very best and push himself to the limit" right? So what is with all these threads of him battling the lower end version of Clark.

Why not get one definitive debate in taking into account all the facts and see exactly how long Goku could last, which is the exact same thing the character would do if he where "in character."

The only DC character that I actually like is The Flash. I hate everyone else in DC. I also hate DBZ. I think the series crapping on Dragon Ball which was actually a cool martial arts Manga. I just want to put that out there.

But to say "Could this character at there best, beat another character with several serious limitation" is just extremely silly to me. I've done a few thread battles. An normally, if I use a character I think is more powerful, I don't dumb him down, I give him a challenge. 2 v1. or prep or Location advantage. To make it more balance.

Never the less, I think this thread is dumb and I'll always say that Clark is going to stump Goku because I look at both characters as a whole not broken up.

#185 Edited by Perpetr8rMike (590 posts) - - Show Bio

Dc Fanbois (Please note Fanboy and Fanboi is not the same, Fanboi is for those insane fans who just go overboard and do not even want to see or listen to reason or a proper debate.)

According to DC who are the Owners and Controllers of the Dc Multiverse Post-Crisis or Modern Superman does not exist anymore. There is ONLY New-52 Superman. So while you may love to bring up Golden Age (Beaten to death by Prime)l Silver Age (Retconned into Post-Crisis) or Post Crisis Superman (Flashpointed into New-52) There is only 1 CANON Superman. That is NEW-52 SUPERMAN.

Where as Goku is the same as he always was, the CANON Goku is the one from the series, the current movie, etc. He is still growing but has his full background to draw from.

So the Superman vs Goku debate can rage using Officially Non-Canon Supermen all you want. But in the world of CANON Goku would stomp New-52 Superman.. who btw was once knocked out by an RPG...

Also as for Goku fighting the strongest Superman, without aid or what not. SA SUPERMAN vs GOKU (Whatever his max form) would be a damn good fight, I think people over do SA's power, yes he moved worlds and what not, He sneezed out a solar system with outside help, that was not his normal power.

ALSO please Comic fans, my brothers and sisters, DBZ and virtually any Animated medium be it Manga or TV or Movies shows things from perspective. We see in Flash comics a speed trail to show Flash's speed and his fights when fighting other speedsters we do not just get a blank background and have to assume a fighting is going on. This is the same for DBZ, we see speech and actions as the fighters do so we can enjoy the scene. So yes while your screaming Hyper sonic we can see them dodging and attacking, defending, and counter-attacking in 'real-time' to them which is faster then most can do. I do believe once in Super Saiyan they are moving in Light speed as they always note the increased speed and when a new form is reached the other fighters are struggling to even witness the fight when they can clearly see and react in extremely high speeds already.

#186 Posted by SSJLozza (1528 posts) - - Show Bio

Goku stomps even harder now he can go SSJG...

#187 Posted by Nessy3 (94 posts) - - Show Bio

@nessy3:

But to say "Could this character at there best, beat another character with several serious limitation" is just extremely silly to me. I've done a few thread battles. An normally, if I use a character I think is more powerful, I don't dumb him down, I give him a challenge. 2 v1. or prep or Location advantage. To make it more balance.

Never the less, I think this thread is dumb and I'll always say that Clark is going to stump Goku because I look at both characters as a whole not broken up.

The point is to make even battles, it's not about comparing 2 characters, it's about starting a debate and using logic to try to get your point across, not about having a character that you like win.

Whether the new superman is dumbed down or not, it doesn't matter, because it makes a much better fight than some of the more powerful versions of superman, and without it being at least remotely even there isn't anything to debate.

And to say that you'll always say that Clark is going to stomp Goku, what if it is current Clark vs current Goku? What do you say to that?

#188 Posted by NeonGameWave (8438 posts) - - Show Bio

Dc Fanbois (Please note Fanboy and Fanboi is not the same, Fanboi is for those insane fans who just go overboard and do not even want to see or listen to reason or a proper debate.)

According to DC who are the Owners and Controllers of the Dc Multiverse Post-Crisis or Modern Superman does not exist anymore. There is ONLY New-52 Superman. So while you may love to bring up Golden Age (Beaten to death by Prime)l Silver Age (Retconned into Post-Crisis) or Post Crisis Superman (Flashpointed into New-52) There is only 1 CANON Superman. That is NEW-52 SUPERMAN.

Where as Goku is the same as he always was, the CANON Goku is the one from the series, the current movie, etc. He is still growing but has his full background to draw from.

So the Superman vs Goku debate can rage using Officially Non-Canon Supermen all you want. But in the world of CANON Goku would stomp New-52 Superman.. who btw was once knocked out by an RPG...

Also as for Goku fighting the strongest Superman, without aid or what not. SA SUPERMAN vs GOKU (Whatever his max form) would be a damn good fight, I think people over do SA's power, yes he moved worlds and what not, He sneezed out a solar system with outside help, that was not his normal power.

ALSO please Comic fans, my brothers and sisters, DBZ and virtually any Animated medium be it Manga or TV or Movies shows things from perspective. We see in Flash comics a speed trail to show Flash's speed and his fights when fighting other speedsters we do not just get a blank background and have to assume a fighting is going on. This is the same for DBZ, we see speech and actions as the fighters do so we can enjoy the scene. So yes while your screaming Hyper sonic we can see them dodging and attacking, defending, and counter-attacking in 'real-time' to them which is faster then most can do. I do believe once in Super Saiyan they are moving in Light speed as they always note the increased speed and when a new form is reached the other fighters are struggling to even witness the fight when they can clearly see and react in extremely high speeds already.

Agreed.

#190 Posted by Evil Incarnate (4158 posts) - - Show Bio

It's kind of funny that Goku has to get to some insanely powerful level to contend with standard Superman and we're not even a full year into his New 52 series. I can only imagine what's going to happen when he acquires more feats...

#191 Edited by russellmania77 (15753 posts) - - Show Bio

@bossmonster: so like i said about superman "fanbois", all they say is superman curbstomp.

all you been saying is superman destroys goku with out any proof. and it really doesnt matter if goku fights silver age superman, superman prime 1 million, obama superman, kingdom cum superman or superboy prime (who actually shattered reality said he had no power from being away from the yellow sun so long, and also survived a universal destruction while having the power of the gardians) dont matter cuz none of them exist anymore, meaning no longer canon, theres only new 52 superman, which who has not shown any feats of surviving a explosion enough to take out a solar system, which canon goku can do in ssj 2. but let me guess "goku has never blown up a solar system", correct, in the cell saga, cell was able to gather enough ki to do so, or maybe you havent seen it cuz you think dragonball is somehow better.

#192 Posted by SMXLR8 (1505 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssjlozza said:

Goku stomps even harder now he can go SSJG...

well he did not stomp before but now maybe I have to see the movie first

#193 Posted by SMXLR8 (1505 posts) - - Show Bio

@russellmania77: cell's statement might be true but he needs the sun to do that since he can't do that in one shot

#194 Edited by Batman242 (4862 posts) - - Show Bio

@russellmania77: Do you have any proof that Goku can take a punch that can crack/destroy a planet? I don't think you do. Do you have any proof that Goku can withstand Superman's heat vision? Don't think so. Do you have any proof that freeze breath won't work on Goku? That I would like to see. Goku is over Superman in combat speed and training, but nothing else basically. Superman is stronger, faster, and smarter. I see no reason not to believe that Superman can't beat SSJ 1 - 4 power levels of Goku.

This SSJG is something who's abilities I haven't seen as of yet, hardly anybody on this website has, so everything here so far is speculation....

#195 Posted by russellmania77 (15753 posts) - - Show Bio

@smxlr8: why would goku need the sun to use he's ki?

@batman242: i never said anything about ssjg. but fine, when goku fought bills for the first time, he punched a hole thru king kai's whole planet, and got hit with an attack strong enough to put goku down. maybe that doenst matter, but also the more ki you have the more durable you are, frieza was getting stomped on by ssj goku and still survived a planet explosion and as far as i know, superman's strongest heat vision shown was when he blasted a bunch of doomsday clones that batman was able to kill. do you have any proof goku can not take a punch that can destroy/crack a planet? I DONT THINK SO

#196 Posted by SMXLR8 (1505 posts) - - Show Bio

@russellmania77: cell needs the the sun to SS bust , he shots a ki blast in to the sun cause a chain reaction

#197 Posted by Batman242 (4862 posts) - - Show Bio

@smxlr8: why would goku need the sun to use he's ki?

@batman242: i never said anything about ssjg. but fine, when goku fought bills for the first time, he punched a hole thru king kai's whole planet, and got hit with an attack strong enough to put goku down. maybe that doenst matter, but also the more ki you have the more durable you are, frieza was getting stomped on by ssj goku and still survived a planet explosion and as far as i know, superman's strongest heat vision shown was when he blasted a bunch of doomsday clones that batman was able to kill. do you have any proof goku can not take a punch that can destroy/crack a planet? I DONT THINK SO

King Kai's planet is a very small one.... not even the size of a moon nor Pluto. You're right, it doesn't matter, It doesn't show how durable Goku is. Superman can definitely take a punch like that though. Superman also split an ocean with his heat vision. He doesn't use his heat vision to the fullest because he likes to hold back, but when he doesn't hold back, he can just insta-lobotomize or incinerate Goku with it... because like I said, Goku doesn't show any high end durability feats against such things. I don't think he'd be able to dodge it easily either since it comes so quickly.

#198 Edited by Batman242 (4862 posts) - - Show Bio

@smxlr8 said:

@russellmania77: cell needs the the sun to SS bust , he shots a ki blast in to the sun cause a chain reaction

So Frieza and Buu are potential SS busters as well?

#199 Posted by russellmania77 (15753 posts) - - Show Bio

@smxlr8: never said he needed the sun, he said he gathered enough ki to destroy the solar system and if he did than ok whats wrong with hitting the sun?

#200 Posted by russellmania77 (15753 posts) - - Show Bio

@batman242: so frieza is as strong as cell? I DONT THINK SO. and kid buu destroyed a galaxy, so to answer your question, yes... yes buu is a ss buster.