All though Morlun doesn't have any direct feats every time he has been stabbed so far there has been context. Considering Daemos was tanking bullets Morlun probably has piercing resistance. Plus he has a healing factor.
Morlun have shown almost no piercing resistance, only pain tolerance and this is a random encounter and in character, he will probably do as always and rush into Itachi, who have shown to have enough reaction time to summon his susanoo (No way Morlun is faster than a lightning, and no, Spider-Man isn't faster than a lightning too, he only dodges them because of the Spider-Sense)
@mudamudamuda: Morlun endured a barrage of vibranium-tipped Nuclear Warheads, I don't think that Itachi can do the same. Also, he shrugged off the plasma blast from the 2099 Punisher and from an alternate Genis-Vell, I don't think that Itachi can do the same kind of damage with brute strenght. Also, the heat from the Amaterasu is debatable, "normal" humans have survived it, even people with weaker durability and healing factors than Morlun, Karin for instance. Honestly, without genjutsu or his best Susanoo abilities, I don't see him winning here. Morlun will not be able to get past the Susanoo, but he will not be dropped by anything that this Itachi can do, and Itachi had health issues, so he will probably die just by using his chakra eventually.
@mudamudamuda: Morlun endured a barrage of vibranium-tipped Nuclear Warheads, I don't think that Itachi can do the same.
This sounds amazing, can I get the scan ?
Also, he shrugged off the plasma blast from the 2099 Punisher and from an alternate Genis-Vell, I don't think that Itachi can do the same kind of damage with brute strenght.
Heat durability doesn't equal blunt force durability though.
Also, the heat from the Amaterasu is debatable, "normal" humans have survived it, even people with weaker durability and healing factors than Morlun, Karin for instance.
Although she isn't a fighter Karin is not a "normal" human. Let's not forget that as long as she has chakra her healing factor allows her to shrug off obscene amounts of damage :
But that she only survived Amaterasu because Sasuke extinguished the flames. Also Itachi used Amatrerasu to One shot Nagato's Cerberus summon that could regenerate from any damage.
Honestly, without genjutsu or his best Susanoo abilities, I don't see him winning here. Morlun will not be able to get past the Susanoo, but he will not be dropped by anything that this Itachi can do, and Itachi had health issues, so he will probably die just by using his chakra eventually.
Itachi should still have a massive speed advantage since not even Kakashi's sharingan could see him :
The heat resistance and energy resistance feats are counters to Amaterasu (And I should mention that the missiles instance also can be put in that list) :P And with normal people I meant that even taking off the clothes were enough in the past to counter the Amaterasu, and from the damage showed so far, it will not hurt Morlun at all, Karin have a great healing factor, but she isn't known for her heat durability, and if the flames were really hotter than the sun, everybody touched by it would be killed in an instant, and that just don't happens. Also, I should mention that Morlun can drain any kind of energy, he even drained cosmic power, and while I'm not sure, the Amaterasu and even the Susanoo could end being a snack for Morlun.
His durability against blunt force is insane, he completely ignored the damage done by a Spider-Man not holding back and speedblitzed him easily (I'm sure that Itachi is faster, I've said that myself before), so even though he is slower, he isn't exactly a slug here. But even a "massive" speed advantage will not help against an opponent that he can't put down, so far, nobody but the Other could drop him alone. His strenght is no joke either, he ripped throught an adamantium net without much effort, and from what we've seen, the Susanoo isn't exactly as durable as adamantium, and the mirror still have to be consciously used by Itachi, so Morlun could find a breach eventually (And despite the statements, the mirror never endured something with that impact force, the Kirin was pure energy for example and the other thing was the Orochimaru's blade, that even Naruto in his 4-tails mode easily tanked).
But I don't see Morlun damaging Itachi either, but then it comes the problem, Itachi have health issues and can't fight for long time, he gets tired by using his Mangekyo Sharingan and his Susanoo being activated just turns things worse, without his best cards, he can't put Morlun down and every second into the fight, Itachi will be weaker, both by his own health issues and by the fact that Morlun is an energy drainer.
Here is the panel which confirms that Morlun was hit with nukes. I am not sure if the above scans were the nukes or generic missiles personally.
Anyways not sure if Morlun can keep up with Itachi still but if he can he might win this. His whole thing is draining life force and Itachis stamina isn't the best so Morlun might win due to his draining ability unless Itachi can put him down quickly. The yata mirror would probably protect itachi from being drained but Itachi probably can't hold susanoo for long...He doesn't have a lot of feats while living, and we've only seen him with his illness and when he was edo.
@jashro44: Anyways not sure if Morlun can keep up with Itachi still but if he can he might win this. His whole thing is draining life force and Itachis stamina isn't the best so Morlun might win due to his draining ability unless Itachi can put him down quickly.
That's if Morlun can tag him (or can Morlun now drain without touching?).
@jashro44: Anyways not sure if Morlun can keep up with Itachi still but if he can he might win this. His whole thing is draining life force and Itachis stamina isn't the best so Morlun might win due to his draining ability unless Itachi can put him down quickly.
That's if Morlun can tag him (or can Morlun now drain without touching?).
He could drain the Susanoo itself, but still, while not faster than Itachi, Morlun isn't a slug, he easily speedblitzed Peter even before his Spider-sense triggered, but I don't think that he will with via brute strenght (If somehow he finds a breach that's not being protected by the Yata Mirror, I'm pretty sure that he would easily rip throught it without much effort, he ripped an adamantium net without much problem. But still, that's not the outcome that I'm seeing, as Jashro said, Itachi have a really bad stamina and his sickness could as well kill him, it was really painful for him to sustain his susanoo and with the nerfs he can't damage Morlun in any way. He could easily tank the Amaterasu and the hits from the Susanoo, that wouldn't even bother him (And if Itachi grabbed him with the Susanoo, he could easily break the hand of the Susanoo).
These and the scan Jashro posted are awesome. It seems I was heavily underestimating Morlun. Thank you for correcting me :)
The heat resistance and energy resistance feats are counters to Amaterasu (And I should mention that the missiles instance also can be put in that list) :P
To be fair, I don't think that Amaterasu works via heat. It's supposed to be a mystical fire and looking back it's feats suggest that. For example you can't 'burn' fire no matter how hot your flames are, yet Amaterasu can :
You also can't 'burn' water regardless of your flames heat, yet Amaterasu can :
If anything it seems to me like Amaterasu 'consumes' the target not just burns them.
And with normal people I meant that even taking off the clothes were enough in the past to counter the Amaterasu,
Ugh, I really dislike when people bring the steel armors instances referring to it as "clothes". Let's be honest, Amaterasu does have low-end feats but they are nowhere near as bad as people make them out to be...
The instance you are talking about is the one with the Samurai I presume ? If so then do keep in mind that the entire fight was happening at speed that not even the Sharingan could see at, yet the Raikage barely had enough time to attack twice. So what seemed like a few minutes in the anime could very well be a few seconds in reality. To further explain this lets look back at Amaterasu's flame other feat against steel level durability :
This :
And this :
Kagutsushi (Amaterasu flames with shape manipulation as you should know) instantly burnt Kidomaru's spider webs that in case you don't remember were explained to be much more durable than steel :
It is also important to note that Amaterasu completely burnt Danzo while he was still mid-air after jumping so that goes to further prove that the time-frame from the samurai fight is inaccurate :
Karin have a great healing factor, but she isn't known for her heat durability, and if the flames were really hotter than the sun, everybody touched by it would be killed in an instant, and that just don't happens.
True, but lets not forget that Karin is part of the Uzumaki clan. Which means that just like Naruto and his mother she would be able to survive things that would normally kill other Ninjas. Remember Kushina ? She got her Bijuu extracted which normally = Instant death, then got impaled by the 9 tails claws and still survived a bit longer than Minato.
Anyway, since we are talking about Amaterasu vs things with heat resistance I should probably help you remember you that this happened :
Besides, I don't think anyone takes the hotter than the sun Amaterasu statement seriously. It seem like an obvious figure of speech to me... a very obvious one.
and from the damage showed so far, it will not hurt Morlun at all
I disagree. If Amaterasu can burn the Juubi making it roar in pain and force it to remove it's own flesh to not get consumed, the same Juubi who was no selling Bijuu bombs and even tanked his own this :
Then I see no reason to assume that it won't be enough to damage Morlun. Sure It has some low end feats but that isn't a reason to ignore it's high end feats.
Also, I should mention that Morlun can drain any kind of energy, he even drained cosmic power, and while I'm not sure, the Amaterasu and even the Susanoo could end being a snack for Morlun.
Now this on the other hand is the real problem. If Morlun can indeed absorb Amaterasu then I guess that makes it pretty problematic for Itachi...
His durability against blunt force is insane, he completely ignored the damage done by a Spider-Man not holding back and speedblitzed him easily (I'm sure that Itachi is faster, I've said that myself before), so even though he is slower, he isn't exactly a slug here.
I don't really think that Spiderman's striking strength compares to this to tbh :
But even a "massive" speed advantage will not help against an opponent that he can't put down, so far, nobody but the Other could drop him alone. His strenght is no joke either, he ripped throught an adamantium net without much effort, and from what we've seen, the Susanoo isn't exactly as durable as adamantium,
Umm... a V2 Susanoo can tank mountain busting attacks...
and the mirror still have to be consciously used by Itachi, so Morlun could find a breach eventually (And despite the statements, the mirror never endured something with that impact force, the Kirin was pure energy for example and the other thing was the
I never really mentioned Yata miror because it a NLF. So no point in discussing that. But just so you know Itachi dis not use Yata mirror on Kirin, because Yata mirror negates or redirects attacks. It doesn't tank anything. Had Itachi used it then the mountain would be left standing since Kirin would either be negated or sent back up.
Orochimaru's blade, that even Naruto in his 4-tails mode easily tanked).
I'm not sure how 'even' works in this statement. The Kusanagi blade can even cut diamond and Naruto's chakra cloak can tank 10+ km sized Bijuu bombs lol
But I don't see Morlun damaging Itachi either, but then it comes the problem, Itachi have health issues and can't fight for long time, he gets tired by using his Mangekyo Sharingan and his Susanoo being activated just turns things worse, without his best cards, he can't put Morlun down and every second into the fight, Itachi will be weaker, both by his own health issues and by the fact that Morlun is an energy drainer.
Honestly Itachi's stamina is not as low as people claim. Sure he isn't an Uzumaki but he still had roughly as much stamina as Hebi Sasuke which is a lot since that sasuke could so this without breaking a sweat :
Anyway, with Genjutsus, tsukuyomi and totsuke blade restricted and even if none of the above works Itachi can still sacrifice one of his eyes to use Izanami. Given that his speed advantage combined with his crow clones will surely allows him to use it.
@jashro44: Anyways not sure if Morlun can keep up with Itachi still but if he can he might win this. His whole thing is draining life force and Itachis stamina isn't the best so Morlun might win due to his draining ability unless Itachi can put him down quickly.
That's if Morlun can tag him (or can Morlun now drain without touching?).
Yes Morlun needs physical contact. And I agree Morlun catching Itachi is his biggest obstacle here. His combat speed is pretty inconsistent.
@mudamudamuda: Izanami is still a genjutsu, so it's restricted here too. I know the feats about Amaterasu, but it's temperature it's the problem, an Inheritor (The same race as Morlun) sit down and ignored being completely covered by plasma (That's the same thing that the sun is made of), and wakanda wasted all of its weaponry just to slow him, and failed. And as I've said, we don't even know how he would deal with Amaterasu, he could absorb it, as we know, he , he devoured many kinds of different energies, even life force and we've seen that this kind of power can be absorbed. Madara easily absorbed the Amaterasu thanks to his rinnegan, that's because Amaterasu is a chakra infused flame, a kind of energy that, by its description in Narutoverse, is tied with the Life Force and Stamina of the user.
And despite the impressive durability feats, we can't know if the Susanoo is as durable as Adamantium, because if it is less durable, Morlun can easily destroy it. But that's not the outcome that I'm seeing, despite Itachi having enough stamina to endure some fights, even if Morlun stopped fighting and waited, Itachi could still be dropped by the overuse of his powers, that's why he relies on genjutsus most of the times. Also, about the impact force that Susanoo can deal, I'm sorry, but I don't think that it's above an improved nuke barrage, and we know what Vibranium can do, and Morlun just shrugged off that. I don't think that morlun will even hit Itachi, but probably the outcome will be Itachi killing himself by having his life-force drained or by wasting all of his chakra (And possibly loosing his vision).
In a fight without the limitations, Itachi would easily win as I've said before.
Morlun have shown almost no piercing resistance, only pain tolerance and this is a random encounter and in character, he will probably do as always and rush into Itachi, who have shown to have enough reaction time to summon his susanoo (No way Morlun is faster than a lightning, and no, Spider-Man isn't faster than a lightning too, he only dodges them because of the Spider-Sense)
Honestly Itachi's stamina is not as low as people claim. Sure he isn't an Uzumaki but he still had roughly as much stamina as Hebi Sasuke which is a lot since that sasuke could so this without breaking a sweat :
In their fight, Itachi's chakra output far exceeded Sasuke's. He started off the fight with three genjutsu's used Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu, and a few other jutsu and then Sasuke's chakra ran out after Kirin. Itachi still managed to use Susano'o and we know Sasuke was out of power because Orochimaru's chakra then began to take over. After Susano'o Itachi was still able to implant some of his chakra in Sasuke in order to create a fail safe for whenever Tobi approached Sasuke.
Izanami is still a genjutsu, so it's restricted here too.
Nope. Izanami is not a genjutsu.
If anything it seems like the ideal answer to this fight since just like against Kabuto Itachi could not put him down due to his healing factor nor actually use genjutsu on him.
I know the feats about Amaterasu, but it's temperature it's the problem, an Inheritor (The same race as Morlun) sit down and ignored being completely covered by plasma (That's the same thing that the sun is made of), and wakanda wasted all of its weaponry just to slow him, and failed.
This hardly matters because as I already said Amaterasu doesn't seem to be heat based. Sure you could argue him withstanding the pain but that doesn't mean that his body will be able to withstand the damage... unless of course you have scans putting Morlun's body's durability at the Juubi's level, which we both know is impossible.
And as I've said, we don't even know how he would deal with Amaterasu, he could absorb it, as we know, he , he devoured many kinds of different energies, even life force and we've seen that this kind of power can be absorbed. Madara easily absorbed the Amaterasu thanks to his rinnegan, that's because Amaterasu is a chakra infused flame, a kind of energy that, by its description in Narutoverse, is tied with the Life Force and Stamina of the user.
Just to be clear Chakra is not life force and stamina. Life force is the stamina. Chakra is life force + spiritual energy.
Anyway, as I previously said. I could accept the idea of Morlun absorbing Amaterasu (although even nagato couldn't so...). That's a possible way for him to deal with it, but he certainly is not tanking it.
And despite the impressive durability feats, we can't know if the Susanoo is as durable as Adamantium, because if it is less durable, Morlun can easily destroy it.
Adamantium durability varies, there are at least 3 different versions of it. You can't just say susanoo is not as durable as Adamantium when it has better feats than the net used. What are Morlun's best striking feats ? Unless he comes close to mountain level (which he doesn't) there is no reason to assume that he will breach Susanoo because of that one feat. If anything that would suggest that the net used had low durability.
but that's not the outcome that I'm seeing, despite Itachi having enough stamina to endure some fights, even if Morlun stopped fighting and waited, Itachi could still be dropped by the overuse of his powers, that's why he relies on genjutsus most of the times.
Itachi relies on genjutsu because he is a pacifist. He was traumatized as child from all the wars remember. People keep on over exaggerating Itachi's lack of stamina but it really is nowhere near as bad. Sure he may have less Stamina than most high tiers but in a world where even nameless fodders could fight for several days straight, that seems hardly relevant.
Also, about the impact force that Susanoo can deal, I'm sorry, but I don't think that it's above an improved nuke barrage, and we know what Vibranium can do, and Morlun just shrugged off that.
I was comparing that to the Spiderman instance you mentioned not the nukes.
I don't think that morlun will even hit Itachi, but probably the outcome will be Itachi killing himself by having his life-force drained or by wasting all of his chakra (And possibly loosing his vision).
Itachi can use clones to recover. Ninjas have pills that refill their chakra you know ? Itachi doesn't need to overexert himself anyway. I still see him ending the fight with izanami.
Honestly Itachi's stamina is not as low as people claim. Sure he isn't an Uzumaki but he still had roughly as much stamina as Hebi Sasuke which is a lot since that sasuke could so this without breaking a sweat :
In their fight, Itachi's chakra output far exceeded Sasuke's. He started off the fight with three genjutsu's used Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu, and a few other jutsu and then Sasuke's chakra ran out after Kirin. Itachi still managed to use Susano'o and we know Sasuke was out of power because Orochimaru's chakra then began to take over. After Susano'o Itachi was still able to implant some of his chakra in Sasuke in order to create a fail safe for whenever Tobi approached Sasuke.
@mudamudamuda: Technically, Izanami is still a genjutsu (Like Izanagi), it just doesn't uses the opponent eyes like most of the other genjutsus that Itachi used, instead, it uses the sensations shared between the user and the target (kabuto said that he was immune to genjutsu because he didn't knew that Itachi had one that didn't used the body sensations as a conductor). As it was mentioned, it was created to be used against the Izanagi, because the Uchihas couldn't easily use regular genjutsu on another member of the clan (That's why Itachi had problems with Sasuke). But, being a genjutsu, he still isn't avaible here.
Technically, Izanami is still a genjutsu (Like Izanagi),
Well no. It's clearly being treated as something different no matter how you see it. BTW Izanagi is not a genjutsu either, only the first part of the illusion is genjutsu related. Izanagi is a variant of the Sage of six paths reality warping 'creation of all things'.
Genjutsu does not allow you to re-write reality, Izanagi does.
it just doesn't uses the opponent eyes like most of the other genjutsus that Itachi used, instead, it uses the sensations shared between the user and the target (kabuto said that he was immune to genjutsu because he didn't knew that Itachi had one that didn't used the body sensations as a conductor).
Actually, that's not right.
Itachi has other genjutsu that work without eye contact (the one he used on Naruto and Kurenai). Kabuto should know about hem since he was after all a spy collecting intel (he even knew about Kotoamatsu).
As it was mentioned, it was created to be used against the Izanagi, because the Uchihas couldn't easily use regular genjutsu on another member of the clan (That's why Itachi had problems with Sasuke). But, being a genjutsu, he still isn't avaible here.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by regular genjutsu ? Eye based genjutsu ? If so then you should know that sharingan grants you near immunity against other kinds of genjutsu not just Dojutsu :
Gallery
The only kind of genjutsus that effectively worked on sharingan/rinnegan users are sound based genjutsus. Which isn't surprising since the Sharingan is known to be weak against sound based attacks (Not even susanoo can block them).
Anyway, you made some good and interesting points. But it doesn't seem like either side will convince the other so we can agree to disagree if you want to.
@hiddenlight: Alright then. Good debating, bro. This was a very fun discussion and you helped me learn new things about Morlun. So thank you and have a nice day. :D
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