#1 Edited by Kingjohnrocks (1995 posts) - - Show Bio

Morals off, bloodlust on.

4 hours prep, both sides.

The ENTIRE Sith Order, meaning every Sith in existence, EU versions for the Star Wars characters, too.

The Heroes include ALL of the Justice League (withdrawling Speedsters such as Flash), with aid from King Bumi and Avatar Aang from Avatar.

Morals off, bloodlust on.

Battle ends in death

Which side wins?

#2 Edited by Kingjohnrocks (1995 posts) - - Show Bio
#3 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

Villains stomp

#4 Posted by Kingjohnrocks (1995 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2: What would Crimson King do to someone like Wonder Woman or MMH?

#5 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingjohnrocks: Crimson King possesses 6 of the 13 Bends of the Rainbow. Alot of them grant some power or rather, however they all have in common in Mind Raping, Communication, and Soul Stealing. All of them also are unbreakable (by physical Means it seems) and possess a Demon Soul/Form.

Black 13 alone is so powerful that even protected by the Multiversal Turtle Beam (Raw Psyhic might that help beat IT) both Callahan, Jake, and Oy were going to kill themselves to appease it and rend their souls. It took Callahan praying to God, feeling Gods strength enter him, ten put back to sleep the Black 13. Its hinted (after being hidden in the One of the Twin Towers in 1980s) to being responsible for calling out the destruction of its prison. First time the failed Garage Car Bombs. Second Time it succeed with the Airplanes.

Anyway point is Black 13 alone Mind Rapes and Soul Rapes.

#6 Posted by Kingjohnrocks (1995 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump.

#7 Posted by Dredeuced (5577 posts) - - Show Bio

Corrigan Spectre + all the magicians in the justice league matched COIE Anti Monitor, more or less. I say that + Phantom Stranger's omniscience makes it so that they've got the firepower to go up against Crimson King. Combined with Hourman One Million's Hour of Power he can age/de-age the rest of the non pseudo abstracts like the Sith. This fight comes down to if amped Corrigan Spectre can hold off dudes like Crimson King. He was massively multiversal in power so it might just be a matter of opinion.

#8 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: Yes and you also have the near Universe Level Darth Sideus, Darth Plagus (who was the most Knowledgable Sith ever it seems), and Exar kun who was more Powerful than Sideus (This guy beat Grandmaster Luke Skywalker!)

Not even counting the fact that All the Sith combine can add their power and become more than Universal with the Force. Jedi done this, Sith certainatly can too.

Then Pennywise the Clown is a Universal Abstract being imprison at the end of Space and Time (the Dead Lights) who took on kids using the Multiversal Power of the Turtle/Bear Beam.

Also Anti Monitor was weak, he was taken on by Flashes and Supermans. I doubt they would fare as well vs All the Sith combining Powers and Pennywise. Crimson king is hardly the main factor. Unless you want to go with Crimson King making it to the top of the Dark Tower, in which case he is One Above All level, he is Stephen kings umero Numerial God of the Stephen King Verses. He stomps then.

#9 Posted by Kingjohnrocks (1995 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2

Exar kun who was more Powerful than Sideus (This guy beat Grandmaster Luke Skywalker!)

Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known.

--Taken from

Vader: The Ultimate Guide

Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

--Taken from

The New Essential Chronology

Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.

--Taken from

The Complete Visual Dictionary

Credit goes to Silver for quotes.

#10 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@kingjohnrocks: Yet from debates Exar Kun own quotes say he is the most Powerful Sith lord in history and even return to beat Grandmaster Luke, something Sideues from my understanding never done.

@shootingnova @jedixman Question. Who was more powerful? Palpatine or Exar Kun?

#11 Edited by Dredeuced (5577 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@dredeuced: Yes and you also have the near Universe Level Darth Sideus, Darth Plagus (who was the most Knowledgable Sith ever it seems), and Exar kun who was more Powerful than Sideus (This guy beat Grandmaster Luke Skywalker!)

Not even counting the fact that All the Sith combine can add their power and become more than Universal with the Force. Jedi done this, Sith certainatly can too.

Then Pennywise the Clown is a Universal Abstract being imprison at the end of Space and Time (the Dead Lights) who took on kids using the Multiversal Power of the Turtle/Bear Beam.

Also Anti Monitor was weak, he was taken on by Flashes and Supermans. I doubt they would fare as well vs All the Sith combining Powers and Pennywise. Crimson king is hardly the main factor. Unless you want to go with Crimson King making it to the top of the Dark Tower, in which case he is One Above All level, he is Stephen kings umero Numerial God of the Stephen King Verses. He stomps then.

Okay, for one, I'm pretty sure Star Wars barely spans more than a couple of galaxies (there's the one main galaxy and the place Revan and co go to stall the sith empire). Secondly, THE ANTI MONITOR IS WEAK? Ahahaha, sure, maybe SCW Anti Monitor or Blackest Night after he got seriously depowered. I'm talking COIE Anti Monitor -- you know, the guy who destroyed infinite numbers of universes and absorbed all of their power into him. Wally destroyed his armor, sure, but he lost after that and Superman never beat him (Supergirl only busted his armor after he got severely weakened, but that didn't actually stop him).

I've seen you debate pennywise before and nothing I can remember even scratches at universal in power, nor an abstract (he is by no means a representation of a universal constant, which is what abstracts are).

#12 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: So you ignor the facts Penny wise is a universal Destroyer, was locked away in the Dead Lights ( a fact the Turtle and IT told Bill in their Universal Psychic batytle across the ends of the Universe....) and took the power of a Multiversal Beam of the Dark Tower to help battle against? Ignoring all this for Pennywise.

Sure I can see why you think the Novel team gets stomp.

Also ever watch SW EU like Clone Wars? In the one Episode Anakin meets the Universal being of the Force. Grand Master Luke skywalker was Universal with what I believe was called the Crunch... might have to ask the name of that crap again. However Luke became Universal after that.

You think the force was Galaxy level or that SW galaxy was NEVER visited by other Galaxy Beings? You be wrong.

#13 Edited by Dredeuced (5577 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced: So you ignor the facts Penny wise is a universal Destroyer, was locked away in the Dead Lights ( a fact the Turtle and IT told Bill in their Universal Psychic batytle across the ends of the Universe....) and took the power of a Multiversal Beam of the Dark Tower to help battle against? Ignoring all this for Pennywise.

Sure I can see why you think the Novel team gets stomp.

Also ever watch SW EU like Clone Wars? In the one Episode Anakin meets the Universal being of the Force. Grand Master Luke skywalker was Universal with what I believe was called the Crunch... might have to ask the name of that crap again. However Luke became Universal after that.

You think the force was Galaxy level or that SW galaxy was NEVER visited by other Galaxy Beings? You be wrong.

Right, but the Sith are not theu niversal force entity or whatever the heck. The biggest most overused feat I see for the Sith is Sidious' blackhole force storm thing or whatever. Even if Luke is Universal (i'm skeptical, feats?) he's not a sith.

When did It destroy a whole universe? I suppose he might've been a universal threat if the Turtle had to interfere, but it's not outright stated. And that still doesn't even come close to matching COIE Anti-Monitor like amped Spectre did, not to mention the JL has a guy who is literally omniscient in Phantom Stranger which is an absurd boon.

#14 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@dredeuced said:

Right, but the Sith are not theu niversal force entity or whatever the heck. The biggest most overused feat I see for the Sith is Sidious' blackhole force storm thing or whatever. Even if Luke is Universal (i'm skeptical, feats?) he's not a sith.

When did It destroy a whole universe? I suppose he might've been a universal threat if the Turtle had to interfere, but it's not outright stated. And that still doesn't even come close to matching COIE Anti-Monitor like amped Spectre did, not to mention the JL has a guy who is literally omniscient in Phantom Stranger which is an absurd boon.

Bolded and underlin the important part. IT was imprison in the Dead Lights were should his true form be free, that Universe would be consume.

Specter is only as powerful as the Presence makes him. In this fight who says Specter will not be kicked in the face like Batman did lol.

Specter been stomp many times, you blow him up too much do to one showing that was Plot Device. Infact all the Specter Showings is Plot Device as he is only as powerful as he needs to be for DC comic events.

Now you want to bring in omniscient PS.

Fine, lets just used Plot Device showings.

I see you Specter and PS and raise you Dark tower rules by Crimson King.

I win. Auto win as Crimson King in this futur is the OAA level.

Game Set match.

Seriously tho, your using the highest end for plot sake showings. Thats like using HoM Scarlet Witch in a match vs Avengers. Really?

#15 Edited by Dredeuced (5577 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 said:

@dredeuced said:

Right, but the Sith are not theu niversal force entity or whatever the heck. The biggest most overused feat I see for the Sith is Sidious' blackhole force storm thing or whatever. Even if Luke is Universal (i'm skeptical, feats?) he's not a sith.

When did It destroy a whole universe? I suppose he might've been a universal threat if the Turtle had to interfere, but it's not outright stated. And that still doesn't even come close to matching COIE Anti-Monitor like amped Spectre did, not to mention the JL has a guy who is literally omniscient in Phantom Stranger which is an absurd boon.

Bolded and underlin the important part. IT was imprison in the Dead Lights were should his true form be free, that Universe would be consume.

Specter is only as powerful as the Presence makes him. In this fight who says Specter will not be kicked in the face like Batman did lol.

Specter been stomp many times, you blow him up too much do to one showing that was Plot Device. Infact all the Specter Showings is Plot Device as he is only as powerful as he needs to be for DC comic events.

Now you want to bring in omniscient PS.

Fine, lets just used Plot Device showings.

I see you Specter and PS and raise you Dark tower rules by Crimson King.

I win. Auto win as Crimson King in this futur is the OAA level.

Game Set match.

Seriously tho, your using the highest end for plot sake showings. Thats like using HoM Scarlet Witch in a match vs Avengers. Really?

What? I gave you the clear version of Spectre I was talking about. It has nothing to do with plot devices -- Jim Corrigan's Spectre was the most ruthless and powerful version, and by being amped by the Justice League's magicians (which are obviously part of this fight) he was able to duke it out with Anti-Monitor.

I didn't "bring in" omniscient Phantom Stranger. He's a damned Justice League member and one of the more notorious ones outside of the big seven. I didn't even choose an alternate reality Spectre or anything, I used the prime earth version.

And of course I'm using the highest end showing, because it's possible to recreate! Corrigan was part of the justice league, as were those magicians. And yeah, a lot of people in pretty much every Avengers thread bring up how Scarlet Witch is uber powerful. Stop being so spiteful, nothing I said was unreasonable.

Crimson King can't be TOAA level because he's not the writer -- maybe Presence level as he's just an all powerful character but I'd like a little proof. If you want me to show you amped Corrigan taking on COIE Anti Monitor I'd be glad to, I'd just have to go look up one of Killemall's posts in an anti-monitor thread.

Sorry I tried to use some damn logic to make this an interesting fight. Of course I'm using the higher end showings, Kingjohn tossed the freaking Justice League against multiversal godlike beings. No need to get so defensive about Dark Tower or whatever.

edit: Also I'd like to bring up the "Kicked in the face by Batman" thing-- the literal next page, Spectre outright states he let Batman kick him to make him feel better. Batman can't actually kick Spectre and Batman himself admitted he didn't think the kick would work, either.

#16 Posted by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

What? I gave you the clear version of Spectre I was talking about. It has nothing to do with plot devices -- Jim Corrigan's Spectre was the most ruthless and powerful version, and by being amped by the Justice League's magicians (which are obviously part of this fight) he was able to duke it out with Anti-Monitor.

I didn't "bring in" omniscient Phantom Stranger. He's a damned Justice League member and one of the more notorious ones outside of the big seven. I didn't even choose an alternate reality Spectre or anything, I used the prime earth version.

And of course I'm using the highest end showing, because it's possible to recreate! Corrigan was part of the justice league, as were those magicians. And yeah, a lot of people in pretty much every Avengers thread bring up how Scarlet Witch is uber powerful. Stop being so spiteful, nothing I said was unreasonable.

Crimson King can't be TOAA level because he's not the writer -- maybe Presence level as he's just an all powerful character but I'd like a little proof. If you want me to show you amped Corrigan taking on COIE Anti Monitor I'd be glad to, I'd just have to go look up one of Killemall's posts in an anti-monitor thread.

Sorry I tried to use some damn logic to make this an interesting fight, I'll never ever threaten your precious Dark Tower junk again, christ. Sound like a kid at a playground going "NUH UH MINE'S BETTER"

1) you gave me a BS specific Specter that is not current.

2) Yeah, Superman has also been Thought Robot, why not mention him?

3) People who do that are showing their lack of debate. That is not the standard or current power of Scarlet Witch. Same with the characters your picking. Has nothing to do with Spiteful. Your flat out being bias.

4) Errrr. Wrongo. Stepjhen King wrote HIMSELF in the book as a character whos stories is the will of his Dark Tower. Read the books then try to talk about them.

5) You use no damn logic. You brought up your personel favorite and overpowered "versions" to make a case. I know the Current Crimson King and Pennywise would stomp. The Last known showings of Sideuos and Exan Kun with all that Sith power to drain and add are Universal of Star Wars Verse.

These are facts.

The Heroes include ALL of the Justice League (withdrawling Speedsters such as Flash), with aid from King Bumi and Avatar Aang from Avatar.

All this says is all the Avatar Characters and the New 52 Justice League. Your nit picking certain versions. I can do that too. OAA level Crimson King. I win.

The point is this is a sever mismatch.

#17 Edited by Dredeuced (5577 posts) - - Show Bio

@cadencev2 He said ALL of the Justice League. If he meant literally the 6 new 52 members then you should've just freaking flagged the thread and left. If that's the case I concede and KingJohn should be embarassed for making such a terrible mismatch of a thread -- despite knowing how powerful It is from your previous debate with him.

I didn't mention thought robot because there's literally 0 ways to recreate that level of power in this scenario. I'm not trying to freaking cheese you or do stuff that's unreasoanble. Corrigan was a member of the Justice League.

Spectre isn't my personal favorite, what the hell? I used plenty of logic, I was just assuming all former members of the Justice League, except the Speedsters, were allowed so the fight could be reasonable, because I could actually make an argument if that was the case. How is my logic faulty, assuming all Justice League members are allowed? I'm absolutely offended that you think I'm playing favorites here -- I don't give a single damn about Spectre and I think he's an inconsistent pseudo-mary sue plot device, but those kinds of characters are really powerful, so I brought it up to make it a discussion.

Then you get all pissy with me because I didn't just roll over and accept everything you say as gospel.

#18 Posted by reikai (4256 posts) - - Show Bio

People always ask "Who is the most powerful sith". Put it like this, the EU Writers don't care, but George Lucas said Sidious is. Same way he said Luke is the most powerful Jedi. Some people forget to mention Exar Kun possessed one of Luke's students and pulled a surprise mind-screw on Luke before he knew what was wrong.

Plot and Circumstance can kill anyone. Some claim Vader is the 2nd most powerful Sith, yet we know of plenty who've done better things than him, and some writers like Drew Karpyshyn who say their characters like Revan and Darth Bane are equal to Vader (this of course said 'equal' so Lucas wouldn't fire him or other writers for claiming their stuff was better than George's)

In all honestly who is the "most powerful" is irrelevant in Star Wars since the plot can be used to beat anybody. And I still feel Marka Ragnos was the most powerful Sith to ever exist. He knew it. But he didn't need to be a whiny little bantha baby about dying or pull some crap to try and stay alive. Naga Sadow used force rituals to extend his life for another 600yrs after his exile. Vitiate used a ritual to make himself all but immortal. Sidious kept making clones to transfer to because he never wanted to let go of his power or accept the Sith can exist without him.

No one in SW is a universe-level threat. Only person who could've potentially been that was Vitiate if his plans had come to fruition and he turned into a Force God. But that never happens. Still, a number of them can be dangerous if not taken out quickly. Combined mental attacks from them all could pose an issue, and Naga Sadow in his Meditation Chamber is nothin to sneeze out.

Course nothing aside from Sith Sorcery and Mind Attacks will work on people like Superman and co who have absurd durability. To which they'd have to stop him or Supes can vape anyone within the scope of his vision.

#19 Edited by Pokergeist (22351 posts) - - Show Bio

@reikai: I hear only of Exan Kun and Palpatine as the top Siths. Im not a super big SW fan. Also I thought Luke was Universal when he temporary became a Force God to end Palpatine Force Spirit or some garbage.

Also I thought from the EU there is 3 Uber Force Gods or Bedlame Spirits. 1 is a Jedi, another is a Sith, and a old man who is neither but more powerful than Both? It was explained in a Clone Wars Episode and how Anakin was suppose to replace the old man as the balance.

@dredeuced: Fair enough. Did ya flag it? My Flag button has not work the past few days.

#20 Posted by JediXMan (30709 posts) - - Show Bio

I just came here to say that Palpatine is the most powerful Sith.

That is all.

Moderator
#21 Posted by Dredeuced (5577 posts) - - Show Bio

@reikai: I hear only of Exan Kun and Palpatine as the top Siths. Im not a super big SW fan. Also I thought Luke was Universal when he temporary became a Force God to end Palpatine Force Spirit or some garbage.

Also I thought from the EU there is 3 Uber Force Gods or Bedlame Spirits. 1 is a Jedi, another is a Sith, and a old man who is neither but more powerful than Both? It was explained in a Clone Wars Episode and how Anakin was suppose to replace the old man as the balance.

@dredeuced: Fair enough. Did ya flag it? My Flag button has not work the past few days.

I didn't flag it at first because I was trying to make a semblance of an argument with the history of the JL roster. If he confirms that he only meant the normal/current JL members then it should definitely get flagged for a mismatch.

#22 Posted by reikai (4256 posts) - - Show Bio

Mortis Episodes. They were Force Wielders and were supposed to be like Conduits for each aspect of the Force. Daughter was the Light, Son was the Dark, and Father was the one who kept them in balance. But they weren't gods. They were all killed after all. And Father wanted Anakin to replace him in order to keep his children in balance and from ever leaving Mortis.

Bedlam spirits are also just complete garbage. Claimed omnipotence, never really did anything, and only showed up in one comic once, and then vanished, and haven't been seen in the EU since. It was complete crap.

#23 Posted by Kingjohnrocks (1995 posts) - - Show Bio

@shootingnova

What do you think about this? Who is the most powerful Sith Lord? Kun or Palpatine?

#24 Edited by ShootingNova (17851 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes, Palpatine is the most powerful Sith Lord. Numerous canonical sources have already pointed to this.

I don't want to go much further, but I will warn people to ignore reikai's post - not only was it not Lucas who said Palpatine was the most powerful Sith Lord (this was numerous source books and novels), but even if Lucas did say it was so, Lucas's word clearly transcends reikai's. Not a single idea as to why he believes it is fanwank or anything of the sort.

And he thinks Marka Ragnos is the most powerful Sith Lord. Right, the most powerful Sith Lord is one with no feats except getting defeated by a padawan.

#25 Edited by Kingjohnrocks (1995 posts) - - Show Bio

Does anyone still think Villians win?

#26 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33634 posts) - - Show Bio

All Hail The Crimson King

#27 Edited by those_eyes (7073 posts) - - Show Bio
#28 Posted by ImTheBat (59 posts) - - Show Bio
#29 Edited by KingOfAsh (3618 posts) - - Show Bio

Pennywise & Crimson King are both at least Universal. They win with ease.

#30 Posted by DarkRaiden (7521 posts) - - Show Bio

Heroes.

#31 Posted by The_Titan_Lord (5851 posts) - - Show Bio
#32 Edited by Baron_von_Santa (4340 posts) - - Show Bio

which spectre and is the PS new 52 or the original one, because they are all that matters. if its corrigan spectre then heros win