Isabel Rochev (Arrow) vs Black Widow (MCU)

This is the 2^nd of my Arrow threads that I was supposed to post a couple weeks ago (Emil Blonsky vs Slade Wilson being the 1^st). Without further ado: Isabel Rochev a.k.a. Ravager versus Natasha Romanoff a.k.a. Black Widow.

Rules/Conditions

This is Ravager as she appears in the Arrow series

This is Black Widow as she appears in MCU

All MCU feats apply for Black Widow

“Black Widow wins because Rochev is dead” is NOT a valid argument

In character

Morals off

Win by death

Round 1

Ravager before Blood Transfusion (no Mirakuru)

Hand to Hand only

Random encounter

No prep

Combatants start 15 ft. apart in Queen Consolidated boardroom, but the entire floor is fair game

Round 2

Ravager post Blood Transfusion

Standard gear

Ravager has a pistol and her dual swords

Black Widow has Widow’s Bite, Glock 26, Walther PPK pistol, 2 mini smoke grenades, 4 throwing knives, and a garrote

Random encounter, but opponents have basic knowledge of each other

No prep

Combatants start 50 ft. apart in an abandoned warehouse:

@lukehero@rogueshadow@pokeysteve@sophia89@fallschirmjager@risingbean@pope052@funsiized@princearagorn1@rbt@godzilla44@jokerpoker@deathstroke19@homicidalmaniac@stupid_people@allstarsuperman

Can't really debate gun battles.

Widow should stomp her in hand to hand without the transfusion. With the Mirakuru I think Widow would still win but in a much better fight.

@indomitableregal: Widow, both rounds more proven feats.

R1: Widow should stomp.

R2: Widow take majority because of superior gear & experience.

I'm totally blanking on what Ravager did beyond getting run over. If she has bullet/arrow deflecting a case can be made for her. If not, I think Widow will take both rounds in a heavy majority.

Widow wrecks Round 1. She handily wins Round 2.

To be honest, I don't remember if she has any bullet/arrow deflecting feats. But, like you said, she was run over by a van. It's also important to remember that she stood up seconds later with zero apparent damage. Also, before she was on Mirakuru, she was shot twice and for all intents and purposes was dead. After Slade gave her the transfusion she completely healed. Between her durability and her suit (which is similar to Deathstroke's), she won't be put down easily. It also stands to reason that apart from some of Slade's higher end feats, she should be able to replicate anything done by people on Mirakuru, including Roy, who was able to punch through concrete and steel, and catch Oliver's arrow.

Widow both rounds

@indomitableregal: I don't buy into the feat swapping. Most on CV don't. Just because Roy can do something doesn't mean she can. That'll get you into all sorts of shenanigans on the battle boards. "But Batman trained him, so he can do all the skills Batman can." or "Well, since Venom and Carnage are both symbiotes they can both do feat X with equal aptitude..." Nah, that is way to slippery a slope to be on.

As per the fight, Ravage was as good as dead after being shot and before being given mirakuru. I don't think pre Mirakuru has a shot. Second round she may due to the durability and enhanced physicals. It depends on if she can avoid getting shot, how many times she can tank shots before dropping and what the effect of the Widow's sting would be. That sting dropped Chitauri, who in small groups were giving Captain America trouble.

I agree with the majority. Black Widow dominates round 1 and edges out a narrow victory in round 2.

Widow wins R1.

Isobel one shots Widow in R2.

I agree for the most part, but this isn't your standard case of feat swapping. Everyone who had Mirakuru was shown to have increased strength, durability, reflexes, at least some increase in speed, etc. It's not like Roy could catch an arrow before the injection. The major difference between Ravager and pretty much everyone else that received a transfusion is that she was trained whereas most of them were just common criminals.

Black Widow both rounds.

Best bet then is to speculate. You know that in this example Mirakuru increases those stats. You can cite examples of where Slade did this or Roy did that. Show that X trait is amped and then piggyback that onto feats that particular character actually pulled off. While speculation isn't cold hard feat, sometimes it is all you have.

Mirakuru obviously affected people to different extents. Grundy was much different from Slade who was much different from Roy. None of the unnamed rank and file were on Slade's level. That right there shows that the Mirakuru affects people differently and puts feat sharing into doubt.

Widow round 1

Ravager round 2

Yeah, Widow both rounds.

Round 1 widow cleary takes

Round 2 Ravager cleary one shots, she got hit by van and she got back up like it was nothing, Roy had the same mirakuru and broke concrete like it was nothing. She is way to strong and durable for black widow

oh please... Nyssa and Sara needs stay together to beat Isabel.

Ends in glorious sex

Round 1: Widow stomps no question

Round 2: Widow should still win in a difficult fight. Ravaged was struggling to fight Sara who is below Widow and her gear here is pretty solid.

R1: Widow WRECKS. Superior physical capabilities and skill.

R2: Given Widow's superior gadgetry, she should still be able to win.

Widow wins all rounds. And in what world is being hit with a van better then being hit by Hulk?

@indomitableregal: No mirakuru and Black Widow destroys, with mirakuru, she still probably wins

@depinhom: Does she win the 2nd round because of gear, or is the skill difference that large?

@indomitableregal: Skill difference is pretty large without mirakuru

Also, she uses guns and I'm fairly certain Isabel only uses swords but idk

R1: Widow. Better in almost every way.

R2: Probably Ravager due to stats.

R1 Widow

R2 could go either way

@indomitableregal: Yeah but there is nothing to say that it boosts to the same level. If it is a stat increase, then it would scale directly and equally from the stats you already have...no?

So a 120lb female is gonna have less strength and mass to compound then a 210 Male...which would give the male a higher end strength/durability increase. Furthermore, punching power is more about mass and technique then it is strength...so a larger mirakuru who can throw a punch breaking concrete (just as an example) doesn't meanuch for the next guy half his size with no training...or for a woman half his size for that matter.

Natasha takes R1. Gets wrecked in 2.

Ravager couldn't even wreck Diggle, who was only armed with like a cattle prodder while she had full gear. No way is Widow getting stomped in round 2 lol.

That's a very poor logic. Rochev fought a guy who was outright tanking her hits, was more skilled than her and still had him on defensive. The only reason Diggle made it out of there alive was because Felicity ran her over. Do mention the context.

Natasha gets wrecked in R2.

@rbt: She SHOULD have him on the defensive, considering she's not unskilled herself and has a significant stat advantage on him. Widow is more skilled than Rochev. Widow is also quite possibly superior to Diggle in pure H2H and she has MUCH better gear here, so to think she gets wrecked when Diggle was able to hold his own for awhile isn't a fair conclusion IMO. In fact, she could very well outright win round 2 taking her gear into consideration (I didn't even read what gear she had, just assumed she had her Widow's bites and maybe her electric taser sticks).

Widow both rounds

Al-Sah Him was also unable to wreck Diggle. That isn't a low showing. Diggle literally can't win a fight but he also can't get stomped.

Widow

And that is no reason to say that because she didn't wreck Diggle she would loose to Natasha. The fight was interrupted.

Widow is more skilled than Rochev. Widow is also quite possibly superior to Diggle in pure H2H

That's arguable.

and she has MUCH better gear here, so to think she gets wrecked when Diggle was able to hold his own for awhile isn't a fair conclusion IMO.

A)Diggle wasn't holding his own. He was quite clearly getting beat. B)The only reason Diggle survived long enough was because of his durability. He has taken a hit from Grundy without going down. Roy outright smacked him in face with a metal stand and he was alright. Duggle's endurance was the only thing that kept him in fight long enough for Felicity to arrive.

Natasha has shown time to time that she cannot deal with physically superior opponents. At least the one who has an ounce of skill and can fight back.

In fact, she could very well outright win round 2 taking her gear into consideration (I didn't even read what gear she had, just assumed she had her Widow's bites and maybe her electric taser sticks).

And how is she taking down Isobel with her gear? Natasha has no shooting feats against moving targets that I can remember. Even if she does somehow manages to tag Isobel, which is not very likely, Isobel would most likely tank it. And once the fight goes h2h, which it will, Isobel would wreck her worse than she did Diggle.

Bump

9mms are not putting a Mirakuru user down. Isobel loses R1. Stomps R2.

Natasha wrecks R1, gets wrecked R2 - Diggle fighting her is his feat and doesnt scale over to Natasha.