- Iron Man can use whatever armor he chooses
- Morals on
- No prior knowledge
- No BFR
- Combatants stat 100ft apart
- If unfamiliar with Jin Mo-Ri, his respect thread is HERE ...or you could ask me for his feats
Iron Man vs Jin Mo-Ri
Iron Man blares sonics to briefly incapacitate him and then traps him in a bubble.
@unbreakable_fs4: I don't think you understand what I meant, his sonic attacks don't slow you down or weaken you, they hurt your ears so bad that you either get knocked out or you just helplessly stand there in pain until it stops. Unless he has showings of resistance against attacks like that they would likely leave him helpless just like everyone else that had no resistance:
See, those strength feats of Jin's are impressive, but I still don't think that they would be capable of damaging shields that have tanked a nuke whose yield was amped X 3 (One average nuke has a yield of about 150-300 Kilotons and the nuke that his shields tanked at 2% energy was amped thrice).
Even if the shields could be broken through it would take awhile and in the meantime Tony could just change the settings on his shields and make it so Jin gets shocked every time he touches the shield:
Or he could change the structure of the shield and instead of making it circular bubble shape, he could change it to this:
@noone301994 said:
@unbreakable_fs4: I don't think you understand what I meant, his sonic attacks don't slow you down or weaken you, they hurt your ears so bad that you either get knocked out or you just helplessly stand there in pain until it stops. Unless he has showings of resistance against attacks like that they would likely leave him helpless just like everyone else that had no resistance:
See, those strength feats of Jin's are impressive, but I still don't think that they would be capable of damaging shields that have tanked a nuke whose yield was amped X 3 (One average nuke has a yield of about 150-300 Kilotons and the nuke that his shields tanked at 2% energy was amped thrice).
Even if the shields could be broken through it would take awhile and in the meantime Tony could just change the settings on his shields and make it so Jin gets shocked every time he touches the shield:
Or he could change the structure of the shield and instead of making it circular bubble shape, he could change it to this:
Nice stuff by Iron Man, but what I meant by he'll outrun it, is the sonic attack is just sound waves and these sound waves will have trouble reaching Jin, considering he's massively faster than sound.
As for the shield, Jin would use his staff to break free. His staff can grow in length and thickness on command. It has shown to hit hard enough to put a hole through the moon as well. Also, if Tony changes the settings to electrocute Jin, that will have no effect as he has shown to be highly resistant to electricity after he got struck by lightning and acted like nothing happened and continued what he was doing.
It's actually a little more complicated than that. Sound waves spread out in all directions and if you are within range they affect you. The only way you could avoid them is if you quickly ran out of their range. However, If Iron Man noticed that Jin was trying to outrun them he could just change the settings of the sonic attacks and increase the range and radius of the sound waves:
Even if Jin still made it out of the increased range of the sonic waves Iron Man could just keep the sonics turned on and chase him until Jin was within range and considering Iron Man's flight speed, it wouldn't be very hard to catch him:
Yeah when I went through that respect thread that moon busting attack really caught my eye. However, I don't think that Jin would even be capable of moving, let alone summoning and expanding his staff to free himself. To elaborate, if you closely look at the scan with Apocalypse clearly it was evident that he was incapable of even moving a little bit. When Tony traps you in that type of shield I believe that it squeezes you and makes it impossible to move a muscle. Therefore, Jin would be paralyzed by his extremely strong shields. Although, there is a chance that he could break free. Can he control and manipulate his staff at will or with his mind (i.e. without moving his body)? If he could then his inability to move in the shield would be meaningless and that moon busting staff would expand and break him free.
@unbreakable_fs4: Well I really don't think he could endure the sonic attack to be honest. This scan that I posted below illustrates the amount of decibels that his sonic attacks can reach. At 150 decibels an average person will begin to feel vibrations throughout their entire body and is equivalent to 60 thousand pounds of TNT fired ten feet away from a person and is considered louder than standing 10 feet from a jet engine (140 decibels). 200 decibels will kill you. With that many decibels the bones that vibrate to form sound can not withstand the sound and blast directly into the brain causing the person to die immediately and if that doesn't happen after a few seconds of such high noise frequencies the brain will become unable to withstand the intense vibrations and actually explode. So I'm not really sure if Jin could blitz at the same time as withstanding that noise.
You might be right about Jin being faster in combat speed. What are some of his high end combat speed feats? Because Tony isn't exactly a slouch when it comes to reaction speed. He has shown to react faster than milliseconds and moving so fast that he blurs out of sight:
Well, if he didn't paralyze Apocalypse how can you explain him not moving or even attempting an escape?
If Tony notices that Jin's staff is beginning to rapidly increase in size he could just turn his sonic attacks back on to mess up his concentration and prevent him from growing the staff. Also, I'm not really sure if lightning would work against Iron Man. His Bleeding Edge suit is really good at absorbing high amounts of energy and then dishing it right back:
Well I really don't think he could endure the sonic attack to be honest. This scan that I posted below illustrates the amount of decibels that his sonic attacks can reach. At 150 decibels an average person will begin to feel vibrations throughout their entire body and is equivalent to 60 thousand pounds of TNT fired ten feet away from a person and is considered louder than standing 10 feet from a jet engine (140 decibels). 200 decibels will kill you. With that many decibels the bones that vibrate to form sound can not withstand the sound and blast directly into the brain causing the person to die immediately and if that doesn't happen after a few seconds of such high noise frequencies the brain will become unable to withstand the intense vibrations and actually explode. So I'm not really sure if Jin could blitz at the same time as withstanding that noise.
Yes but the problem here is that Jin isn't a normal human. This is the same guy who literally camped in lava-like temperatures for 49 days without a single scratch
He tanks attacks such as this without taking any damage
Gallery
Keep in mind that this is the same opponent that hits hard enough that while being several feet in the air, the air pressure alone from his strike, rips solid earth apart
He will not get easily shaken by 150 decibels like a regular human
You might be right about Jin being faster in combat speed. What are some of his high end combat speed feats? Because Tony isn't exactly a slouch when it comes to reaction speed. He has shown to react faster than milliseconds and moving so fast that he blurs out of sight
He has blitzed 33 superhuman level beings literally before any of them could react and then proceeds to hit a guy who casually left afterimages so fast that he didn't even realize what happened
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He has blitzed a guy who casually tags opponents that move faster than the speed of sound
Gallery
Here again he blitzes another superhuman level opponent before he could react
Gallery
Casually blitzes a guy who could move so fast that he leaves afterimages and appears to teleport
Gallery
I'll stop here for now but I'm sure you get the idea. Also note that every feat I've shown of him blitzing his opponents were when he was depowered due to the loss of his god powers
Well, if he didn't paralyze Apocalypse how can you explain him not moving or even attempting an escape?
Fair enough.
If Tony notices that Jin's staff is beginning to rapidly increase in size he could just turn his sonic attacks back on to mess up his concentration and prevent him from growing the staff. Also, I'm not really sure if lightning would work against Iron Man. His Bleeding Edge suit is really good at absorbing high amounts of energy and then dishing it right back
His staff grows at near light speed, Iron Man will not be reacting to it. As for the point about his lightning, I agree that Iron Man can absorb the energy ...but how much energy exactly can he absorb? Jin has shown to be able to command his lightning to strike endlessly
Gallery
Good point, however, his sonics are so powerful that they have been known to hurt and severely incapacitate people with much better durability than Jin:
Oh wow, light speed? Yeah then honestly, Iron Man could probably trap him in there but then Jin would quickly escape. Iron Man can absorb quite A LOT and I don't think it would be in Jin's best interest to amp Iron Man to such a degree by continuously spamming the lightning:
If the Silver Surfer, Terrax, Thor, and Sentry couldn't overload his armor, no offense, but I don't think Jin could.
Sorry for the late response, been occupied with studying cause it's finals week
Good point, however, his sonics are so powerful that they have been known to hurt and severely incapacitate people with much better durability than Jin
Nice response but as your scans indicated, Jin won't be sitting there waiting for iron man to hit him with a localized sonic assault, which seems to have a shorter hit range than the regular sonic attack. This will without a doubt be an easy dodge for Jin.
Your second scan shows Hercules with more people handling the sonic attack. As your scan shows, while it does ring in their ears, it does no significant damage to them. Iron Man even goes on to say they should endure it for a few more seconds, indicating it can be endured. This gives Jin more than enough time to act.
Third scan isn't the regular Hulk but Ultimate Hulk who eats people. I wouldn't consider him in Hulk's strength and durability class considering he gets easily damaged by Captain America's punches and kicks
As for the fourth scan, Cannonball only is immune to physical forces due to his force field but this force field doesn't protect against non physical attacks such as Sonics, while as for Jin he as a whole is durable
Oh wow, light speed? Yeah then honestly, Iron Man could probably trap him in there but then Jin would quickly escape. Iron Man can absorb quite A LOT and I don't think it would be in Jin's best interest to amp Iron Man to such a degree by continuously spamming the lightning
If the Silver Surfer, Terrax, Thor, and Sentry couldn't overload his armor, no offense, but I don't think Jin could.
I agree about the lightning. Since it wouldn't be in Jin Mo-Ri's best interest to attack with lighting, he'll refrain from using it after he notices it amps IM. Rather Jin would likely go with physical attacks (staff included).
How will IM respond to Jin making 100 clones of himself and each of them attacking with the staff extending near light-speed at IM
Iron Man will not be able to evade an attack such as this that covers a large portion of the planet
@unbreakable_fs4: That's okay. I understand. I'm drawing closer to finals week myself.
Well to address your first point about the localized sonic attack I have to say that you are correct, he wouldn't hit Jin with an attack like that because he's too fast, however, like I previously said, Iron man would notice his speed and then change the settings on his sonic attack and increase the radius and frequency of the sound waves so that Jin couldn't outrun or withstand the attack (again, if he did try to outrun the sonic attack Iron Man could just follow him and spam it while flying at mach speeds).
Clearly Iron Man wasn't using 150 decibels' worth of sound in the second scan and for the third scan, although I realize that it isn't cannon, I figured that 616 Tony's sonics are stronger than that since they were effective against Juggernaut so that's why I decided to post it. I thought that it was relevant because in my opinion, Ultimate Hulk has better durability than Jin. Cap is able to hurt Hulk but it's not like he KO's him:
The Hulk thing is neither here nor there. At the end of the day his sonics have the capability of reaching 150 decibels (if not more) and have been shown to hurt Juggernaut. This feat is impressive for two reasons. The first reason is that it was able to actually hurt the guy immune to pain. The second reason is because Iron Man says that his sonic assault was strong enough to take down a whole regiment. A regiment of soldiers varies between about 3000-6000 soldiers. So do with that what you will.
Honestly, Iron Man wouldn't be able to avoid or tank that attack with the staffs. If they shoot at him at light speed and have the capability of busting the moon, then Iron Man would probably die. He wouldn't be able to react or tank such a hit, however, I honestly don't think that Jin would be able to get to that point. If, in my scenario, Iron Man shoots sonics and Jin and then attempts to trap him inside of his shields Jin will only be able to escape by using his staff to expand and break free. If Tony sees that his shields, that were capable of restraining Apocalypse, were easily broken by an enormous staff he would probably go into defensive mode and either go invisible or create illusions:
After that he could just improvise with surprise attacks.
@thatguywithheadphones: lol we would but it'd be a lot of work transferring all the stuff said here to there, especially for Noone301994 considering he used a lot of spoiler blocks. The other option is to rename the thread and edit it a little, turning it into a CaV
Well to address your first point about the localized sonic attack I have to say that you are correct, he wouldn't hit Jin with an attack like that because he's too fast, however, like I previously said, Iron man would notice his speed and then change the settings on his sonic attack and increase the radius and frequency of the sound waves so that Jin couldn't outrun or withstand the attack (again, if he did try to outrun the sonic attack Iron Man could just follow him and spam it while flying at mach speeds).
It would be highly unlikely for Tony to react to Jin and change his tactic from localized assault to wide range assault before Jin goes in for the blitz after dodging. Tony would have to have reaction/combat speed equivalent to his travel speed to do that. Also, a flaw in your above statement that I didn't notice earlier is that in order for Tony to pursue Jin while blasting his sonic attack he'd have to fly under mach speed. Mach 1 is the speed of sound (around 760 mph), if his attack is sound based, in order for it to not get left behind by Tony as he flies, he'd have to fly under mach 1. No matter what range the attack is, it will spread slower than Tony will fly if he flies above mach 1. It will be impossible to approach Jin while flying at speeds under the speed of sound.
Clearly Iron Man wasn't using 150 decibels' worth of sound in the second scan and for the third scan, although I realize that it isn't cannon, I figured that 616 Tony's sonics are stronger than that since they were effective against Juggernaut so that's why I decided to post it. I thought that it was relevant because in my opinion, Ultimate Hulk has better durability than Jin. Cap is able to hurt Hulk but it's not like he KO's him
Fair enough. As for you point about Ultimate Hulk being more durable, I respectfully disagree. If Ultimate Hulk was indeed more durable, hits from Cap wouldn't even phase him let alone make him bleed and even knock him out for a brief period. While Ult. Hulk did indeed get back up, it doesn't take away from the fact that someone like Cap damaged him to such a degree in the first place.
So I find it highly unlikely that he's more durable than Jin considering Jin was tanking hits while depowered from another guy who hits this hard
The Hulk thing is neither here nor there. At the end of the day his sonics have the capability of reaching 150 decibels (if not more) and have been shown to hurt Juggernaut. This feat is impressive for two reasons. The first reason is that it was able to actually hurt the guy immune to pain. The second reason is because Iron Man says that his sonic assault was strong enough to take down a whole regiment. A regiment of soldiers varies between about 3000-6000 soldiers. So do with that what you will.
It is without a doubt an impressive feat but I'd like to touch on something in what you said. IIRC regular Juggs is invulnerable to physical attacks and magical due to his force field, this however does apply to things such as psionics attacks (when without his helmet), while different from sonic attacks, it does however show that Juggs is susceptible to pain if attacked correctly.
Also, while Tony taking out a whole regiment with his sonic attack is a good feat, it would be the equivalent of Tony walking through a wet paper towel when you take into account his opponents where regular humans.
Honestly, Iron Man wouldn't be able to avoid or tank that attack with the staffs. If they shoot at him at light speed and have the capability of busting the moon, then Iron Man would probably die. He wouldn't be able to react or tank such a hit, however, I honestly don't think that Jin would be able to get to that point. If, in my scenario, Iron Man shoots sonics and Jin and then attempts to trap him inside of his shields Jin will only be able to escape by using his staff to expand and break free. If Tony sees that his shields, that were capable of restraining Apocalypse, were easily broken by an enormous staff he would probably go into defensive mode and either go invisible or create illusions
Good tactic. Honestly, Jin has never faced an opponent that can become invisible. He'll most likely wait it out as soon as Tony becomes invisible and wait for an attack. He'll rely on his martial arts instincts, superior combat, and reaction speed to evade the initial assault which will also give away IM's location, then he'll strike with the staff.
Off-Topic: Some are suggesting we do a CaV, I know it'll be hard on you to repost your scans so do you want me to rename the thread to make it a CaV or are you good with not going into a CaV & keeping it as we are?
@unbreakable_fs4 said:
It would be highly unlikely for Tony to react to Jin and change his tactic from localized assault to wide range assault before Jin goes in for the blitz after dodging. Tony would have to have reaction/combat speed equivalent to his travel speed to do that. Also, a flaw in your above statement that I didn't notice earlier is that in order for Tony to pursue Jin while blasting his sonic attack he'd have to fly under mach speed. Mach 1 is the speed of sound (around 760 mph), if his attack is sound based, in order for it to not get left behind by Tony as he flies, he'd have to fly under mach 1. No matter what range the attack is, it will spread slower than Tony will fly if he flies above mach 1. It will be impossible to approach Jin while flying at speeds under the speed of sound.
Sorry for taking so long to respond.
Well Iron Man only uses the localized sonic attacks when he doesn't want to hurt anyone else from the noise. Since no one else would be in the area he wouldn't use the localized sonic attack, therefore, he would just use the standard sonic attack and at 150 decibels it would have a range of at least 20+ kilometers (extreme lowballing and conservative number). Jin would have to run very far away to outrun the very loud noise. In that time Iron Man would have more than enough time to get high up in the air and then change the settings so that it has a wider range. You brought up a good point that I overlooked about him having to go under the speed of sound for the sonics to keep up. Hopefully Tony wouldn't have overlooked that like I did haha. If he increased the range of the sonic attacks (higher than 20 km) he might not even have to chase Jin. He could just wait it out. If Tony spams the sonic attack and keeps it going but Jin runs out of range and doesn't come back wouldn't it still count as a win for Iron Man? But let's say that he does chase Jin. There are a few things that Tony could do to Jin to slow him down in order to continue to shoot sonics at him. If Iron Man caught up to him and started spamming repulsors and missiles it could overwhelm Jin and it might even force him to stop or slow down to change directions (due to the destruction of the battlefield). Iron Man's arsenal and energy capacity is so high that Jin would have to constantly be on the move in order to effectively dodge every attack. He might not even get a chance to counter-attack (especially since Tony can fly really high). Tony is a tactical genius. If he could control the direction that Jin travels (by shooting in specific directions) he could use this to his advantage and lure Jin into a corner to trap him. For example, say that Jin is running away and Iron Man begins shooting repulsors and missiles on Jin's North, South, and West sides, that would then force him to either jump high into the air, where he would be vulnerable, or he could go East. So he could sort of guide Jin to a trap by forcing him to dodge in a specific direction. You can see how that might be advantageous for Iron Man if he plans on trapping him. Scans to prove that his missiles and repulsors could change the landscape or do serious damage:
Fair enough. As for you point about Ultimate Hulk being more durable, I respectfully disagree. If Ultimate Hulk was indeed more durable, hits from Cap wouldn't even phase him let alone make him bleed and even knock him out for a brief period. While Ult. Hulk did indeed get back up, it doesn't take away from the fact that someone like Cap damaged him to such a degree in the first place.
So I find it highly unlikely that he's more durable than Jin considering Jin was tanking hits while depowered from another guy who hits this hard
Well that might have just been an inconsistency, maybe he has better feats of durability. I don't really know but for now we can agree that Jin probably has better durability. It's not that important anyway.
It is without a doubt an impressive feat but I'd like to touch on something in what you said. IIRC regular Juggs is invulnerable to physical attacks and magical due to his force field, this however does apply to things such as psionics attacks (when without his helmet), while different from sonic attacks, it does however show that Juggs is susceptible to pain if attacked correctly.
Also, while Tony taking out a whole regiment with his sonic attack is a good feat, it would be the equivalent of Tony walking through a wet paper towel when you take into account his opponents where regular humans.
I see your point about Juggernaut and the other scans but at the end of the day Jin has no sonic resistance feats and his durability isn't on their level. In fact, I'm not even convinced that he's in Iron Man's league when it comes to durability:
If he has ears and can hear it should do damage. Especially at 150+ decibels. Resistance or not that would be really loud and painful.
Good tactic. Honestly, Jin has never faced an opponent that can become invisible. He'll most likely wait it out as soon as Tony becomes invisible and wait for an attack. He'll rely on his martial arts instincts, superior combat, and reaction speed to evade the initial assault which will also give away IM's location, then he'll strike with the staff.
The problem with that (Jin relying on his instinct and reaction speed) might be that Iron Man can also emit illusions and if Tony produces an image of himself behind Jin and Jin reacts thinking that Iron Man revealed himself and attacks, that could leave him vulnerable to an attack from invisible Iron Man.
Off-Topic: Some are suggesting we do a CaV, I know it'll be hard on you to repost your scans so do you want me to rename the thread to make it a CaV or are you good with not going into a CaV & keeping it as we are?
You can re-name it to a CaV. I wouldn't mind that. No one else seems to be making an argument.
Superman has already shown that superhuman level characters can walk off sonic effects. Not to mention Sonic attacks take time to work, once he uses them he has already been hit in the face and is flying backwards into a mountain.
He can take invisible opponents. This is Jin Mo-Ri fighting almost blind aka with no senses, tagging opponents after they touch him before they can move again.
Also tagging or not after Iron-Man goes invisible he dies.
My favorite Manhwa :3
@cresentking said:
@sirneko: in the new chapter he tanked a attack that would cut the planet in half
Yes he did
He needs to break 1 part of the armor and put a little piece of his weapon inside the suit to destroy it, it destroyed strongest material in heavens.
Sorry for taking so long to respond.
No problem :)
Well Iron Man only uses the localized sonic attacks when he doesn't want to hurt anyone else from the noise. Since no one else would be in the area he wouldn't use the localized sonic attack, therefore, he would just use the standard sonic attack and at 150 decibels it would have a range of at least 20+ kilometers (extreme lowballing and conservative number). Jin would have to run very far away to outrun the very loud noise. In that time Iron Man would have more than enough time to get high up in the air and then change the settings so that it has a wider range. You brought up a good point that I overlooked about him having to go under the speed of sound for the sonics to keep up. Hopefully Tony wouldn't have overlooked that like I did haha. If he increased the range of the sonic attacks (higher than 20 km) he might not even have to chase Jin. He could just wait it out. If Tony spams the sonic attack and keeps it going but Jin runs out of range and doesn't come back wouldn't it still count as a win for Iron Man?
This argument only holds true if you believe that Jin can't endure the attack for one or two seconds. You used a helmet-less Juggernaut, which I pointed out; a significantly weaker Hulk, which I pointed out was hurt easily by Cap, and Cannonball, who's force field doesn't protect against sonic based attacks. I'm not claiming Jin embarrasses them in durability but I'm saying his showings such as shrugging off his eardrums being broken and continuing in his fight should be taken into account
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You saw the results of the fight in the scans posted above by SirNeko. Jin ignores this damage and delivers a kick but stops short of her chin. He moved so fast, the wind pressure shook her brain rendering her immobile and unable to fight.
Do not take this incident as a reason why IM can beat Jin with sound attacks cause this was also when he was without his god powers
I've shown you him shrugging off getting his ear drums damaged, I see no reason why he can't endure IM's sonics for a second or two and blitz him.
If Iron Man caught up to him and started spamming repulsors and missiles it could overwhelm Jin and it might even force him to stop or slow down to change directions (due to the destruction of the battlefield). Iron Man's arsenal and energy capacity is so high that Jin would have to constantly be on the move in order to effectively dodge every attack. He might not even get a chance to counter-attack (especially since Tony can fly really high). Tony is a tactical genius. If he could control the direction that Jin travels (by shooting in specific directions) he could use this to his advantage and lure Jin into a corner to trap him. For example, say that Jin is running away and Iron Man begins shooting repulsors and missiles on Jin's North, South, and West sides, that would then force him to either jump high into the air, where he would be vulnerable, or he could go East. So he could sort of guide Jin to a trap by forcing him to dodge in a specific direction. You can see how that might be advantageous for Iron Man if he plans on trapping him. Scans to prove that his missiles and repulsors could change the landscape or do serious damage
I doubt IM's repulsors and missiles will overwhelm him considering he has tanked an attack that damn near cleaved the whole planet in half (scans where posted above by others but I'll post it for argument's sake)
Flight wont be an advantage at all considering Jin still wields his staff which can grow in length all the way to the moon and hits hard enough to pierce it.
Well that might have just been an inconsistency, maybe he has better feats of durability. I don't really know but for now we can agree that Jin probably has better durability. It's not that important anyway.
It is quite important. His durability will allow him to take the damage IM will dish out, while IM will struggle to take a hit from Jin
I see your point about Juggernaut and the other scans but at the end of the day Jin has no sonic resistance feats and his durability isn't on their level. In fact, I'm not even convinced that he's in Iron Man's league when it comes to durability
So now you're backtracking? You just stated you agree Jin has better durability yet now you say he doesn't?
While he indeed has no sonic resistance, he has shown to shrug off eardrum damage without too much trouble. I see no reason why he can't endure for one or two seconds and blitz.
As for your case for IM's durability being better. The scan shown, while impressive, Sentry was clearly holding back. It was clear when he states "Bad idea Tony" when IM tries to resist and fly away (a page before the one you posted). The result of the fight is plain when Sentry finally actually tries to stop him
As for the Magneto scan. It is indeed a good durability feat but that much would prove irrelevant against Jin
If he has ears and can hear it should do damage. Especially at 150+ decibels. Resistance or not that would be really loud and painful.
While it will be painful, he can endure it as I've shown above.
The problem with that (Jin relying on his instinct and reaction speed) might be that Iron Man can also emit illusions and if Tony produces an image of himself behind Jin and Jin reacts thinking that Iron Man revealed himself and attacks, that could leave him vulnerable to an attack from invisible Iron Man.
It won't work because his battle senses will aid him greatly. He and his friend have deduced an original copy out of numerous duplicates before....not just illusions but legit solid clones. The invisibility will only pose a minor nuisance, as Jin will just have to keep alert for one cause he'll know the fakes
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Never mind about the CaV since people started posting
@unbreakable_fs4 said:
This argument only holds true if you believe that Jin cant endure the attack for one or two seconds. You used a helmet-less Juggernaut, which I pointed out; a significantly weaker Hulk, which I pointed out was hurt easily by Cap, and Cannonball, who's force field doesn't protect against sonic based attacks. I'm not claiming Jin embarrasses them in durability but I'm saying his showings such as shrugging off his eardrums being broken and continuing in his fight should be taken into account
You saw the results of the fight in the scans posted above by SirNeko. Jin ignores this damage and delivers a kick but stops short of her chin. The moved so fast, the wind pressure shook her brain rendering her immobile and unable to fight.
Do not take this incident as a reason why IM can beat Jin with sound attacks cause this was also when he was without his god powers
I've shown you him shrugging off getting his ear drums damaged, I see no reason why he cant endure IM's sonics for a second or two and blitz him.
Yeah the Juggernaut was helmet-less but he has durability MUCH better than Jin's which means he is much tougher. If he's tougher than Jin and he couldn't even move or speak after being blasted by Tony's sonic attacks then how would Jin be able to tank it better? Do you see what I'm trying to say here? How could Jin ignore the pain and blitz when Juggernaut couldn't?
I doubt IM's repulsors and missiles will overwhelm him considering he has tanked an attack that damn near cleaved the whole planet in half (scans where posted above by others but I'll post it for argument's sake)
Flight wont be an advantage at all considering Jin still wields his staff which can grow in length all the way to the moon and hits hard enough to pierce it.
To me that attack looked more like a strength feat because he caught that dudes hand and then the force of stopping such a powerful hit caused the planet to crack. Flight would be an advantage because the only way he could hit Iron Man is if he uses the staff but Iron Man's travel speed is extremely fast so he would have to aim it just in the right spot so he wouldn't miss which would be hard considering the missile and repulsor barrages that Tony would be sending his way. Jin wouldn't be able to shrug off constant city busting attacks.
It is quite important. His durability will allow him to take the damage IM will dish out, while IM will struggle to take a hit from Jin
So now you're backtracking? You just stated you agree Jin has better durability yet now you say he doesn't?
I was referring to Ultimate Hulk and Jin. I was saying that I wasn't sure if it was PIS that Ultimate Hulk got smacked around by Ultimate Captain America and then I went on to say that it didn't matter either way and that we could just agree that Jin had better durability than Ultimate Hulk. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
While he indeed has no sonic resistance, he has shown to shrug off eardrum damage without too much trouble. I see no reason why he can't endure for one or two seconds and blitz.
Because Juggernaut couldn't.
As for your case for IM's durability being better. The scan shown, while impressive, Sentry was clearly holding back. It was clear when he states "Bad idea Tony" when IM tries to resist and fly away (a page before the one you posted). The result of the fight is plain when Sentry finally actually tries to stop him
Iron Man wasn't serious during that fight either. He was trying to get away from the city to avoid civilian casualties. Sentry didn't seem like he held back very much when he punched Iron Man so hard that he flew back several city blocks and Iron Man didn't even have so much as a scratch in his armor. You can try to discredit those feats if you want I've got plenty more:
It won't work because his battle senses will aid him greatly. He and his friend have deduced an original copy out of numerous duplicates before....not just illusions but legit solid clones. The invisibility will only pose a minor nuisance, as Jin will just have to keep alert for one cause he'll know the fakes
How could he detect the fakes exactly? Would he be able to sense that they are fake or something? Could you elaborate about why they wouldn't make a difference in the fight? Like I said before, I don't see why it wouldn't be helpful if Jin was just standing there and waiting for Iron Man to appear and then all of a sudden he sees, what he thinks is Iron Man reappearing for a sneak attack, and then as soon as Jin turns around to shoot his staff at the decoy Iron Man blasts him from behind and then quickly goes invisible once more. He could really wear him down that way.
Never mind about the CaV since people started posting
Sorry for the late response
Yeah the Juggernaut was helmet-less but he has durability MUCH better than Jin's which means he is much tougher. If he's tougher than Jin and he couldn't even move or speak after being blasted by Tony's sonic attacks then how would Jin be able to tank it better? Do you see what I'm trying to say here? How could Jin ignore the pain and blitz when Juggernaut couldn't?
IIRC this Juggernaut is from Thunderbolts and he was severely depowered. Luke Cage even states this
He even gets damaged by attacks from the same class 25 Luke Cage. Easily gets pushed back and bloodied up by a punch from him. King Hyperion has even broken his leg with a kick and was about to kill him until someone intervened
Gallery
This Juggernaut is not in the same durability class as Jin
To me that attack looked more like a strength feat because he caught that dudes hand and then the force of stopping such a powerful hit caused the planet to crack. Flight would be an advantage because the only way he could hit Iron Man is if he uses the staff but Iron Man's travel speed is extremely fast so he would have to aim it just in the right spot so he wouldn't miss which would be hard considering the missile and repulsor barrages that Tony would be sending his way. Jin wouldn't be able to shrug off constant city busting attacks.
It is somewhat a strength feat but mostly a durability feat. What caused the planet to crack was the speed in which the lightning blade was swung. It was so fast that the force alone cut the ground from hundreds of feet in the air. Jin got directly hit by this blade but wasn't cleaved in half.
I was referring to Ultimate Hulk and Jin. I was saying that I wasn't sure if it was PIS that Ultimate Hulk got smacked around by Ultimate Captain America and then I went on to say that it didn't matter either way and that we could just agree that Jin had better durability than Ultimate Hulk. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
It's cool, also sorry for misinterpreting that :)
Because Juggernaut couldn't
As I said previously, this Juggs was quite depowered
Iron Man wasn't serious during that fight either. He was trying to get away from the city to avoid civilian casualties. Sentry didn't seem like he held back very much when he punched Iron Man so hard that he flew back several city blocks and Iron Man didn't even have so much as a scratch in his armor. You can try to discredit those feats if you want I've got plenty more
I won't deny IM's durability, it's great but I've already made my case for Jin's being better. He tanks hits that only the air pressure alone changes the terrain and causes planetary devastation. Let's not forget Jin bypassing IM's durability with his staff.
How could he detect the fakes exactly? Would he be able to sense that they are fake or something? Could you elaborate about why they wouldn't make a difference in the fight? Like I said before, I don't see why it wouldn't be helpful if Jin was just standing there and waiting for Iron Man to appear and then all of a sudden he sees, what he thinks is Iron Man reappearing for a sneak attack, and then as soon as Jin turns around to shoot his staff at the decoy Iron Man blasts him from behind and then quickly goes invisible once more. He could really wear him down that way
From my understanding it's by observing the characteristics and slight actions of the clones that allow him to detect if they are different. Also, you're forgetting that Jin's superior combat speed will come into play here. He can react the instant Tony attacks. He has reacted to surprise attacks numerous times
Here he is suddenly attacked by a guy who leaves afterimages, and he reacts, dodging all his attacks
Gallery
@unbreakable_fs4 said:
Sorry for the late response
That's okay man you're good. I just started finals today.
IIRC this Juggernaut is from Thunderbolts and he was severely depowered. Luke Cage even states this
He even gets damaged by attacks from the same class 25 Luke Cage. Easily gets pushed back and bloodied up by a punch from him. King Hyperion has even broken his leg with a kick and was about to kill him until someone intervened
This Juggernaut is not in the same durability class as Jin
It doesn't really matter that he was depowered. He has shown to be affected by sonic attacks in different scenarios as well:
It is somewhat a strength feat but mostly a durability feat. What caused the planet to crack was the speed in which the lightning blade was swung. It was so fast that the force alone cut the ground from hundreds of feet in the air. Jin got directly hit by this blade but wasn't cleaved in half.
The only reason he wasn't cut in half was because he raised his arm to block the attack. If his durability was THAT good then why didn't he just stand there and let the blade cut him if it was only capable of cutting a little bit through his shoulder? It would have cut him in half had he not raised his arm to prevent that man from slicing any further.
It's cool, also sorry for misinterpreting that :)
That's okay man. You're good.
I won't deny IM's durability, it's great but I've already made my case for Jin's being better. He tanks hits that only the air pressure alone changes the terrain and causes planetary devastation. Let's not forget Jin bypassing IM's durability with his staff.
Jin would be capable of bypassing Iron Man's armor with his staff but let's not forget that that's literally his only option. Iron Man's armor and shields casually tank nukes so there is nothing else he could do to harm Tony. Being a genius and master tactician, Iron Man would be able to figure this out. He would know that he needs to constantly spam and stay moving to avoid being tagged by the staff. He's extremely maneuverable so if he's moving at mach speeds and is maneuvering through the air at an extremely unpredictable level then it would be hard for Jin to aim and properly expand the staff, especially if city-busting attacks are bombarding him.
From my understanding it's by observing the characteristics and slight actions of the clones that allow him to detect if they are different. Also, you're forgetting that Jin's superior combat speed will come into play here. He can react the instant Tony attacks. He has reacted to surprise attacks numerous times
The actions of the clones would be exactly the same as the movements of Tony or his A.I. His decoys wouldn't just be some stiff looking distractions that stand there and look pretty. I doubt that Jin could tell the difference until after attacking one. Yeah I guess having a quick reaction time is a good way to counteract the invisibility and illusions but what if Iron Man disguised an illusion to have stealth? As soon as the decoy comes out of stealth mode Jin would react extremely fast to attack and in the middle of the attack, right before Jin realizes it was a trick, here comes an Iron fist flying from out of nowhere at Jin's face at 2386 MPH:
You might argue that Jin could react to even THAT but if he's right in the middle of hitting, what he believes to be the REAL Tony, his reaction would be slightly slower because he would be really surprised by the trick. If that's not convincing enough then he could just do what he's done in the past when dealing with speedsters:
It would be pretty hard for Jin to immediately react if he thinks that he finally caught the real Iron Man. He would be surprised and if Tony shot a beam so large that it couldn't be easily dodged (or an Iron fist moving at mach speeds) I think that even with his fast speed and reaction he'd get hit (due mostly to being surprised).
It doesn't really matter that he was depowered. He has shown to be affected by sonic attacks in different scenarios as well
Despite Juggernaut's durability he does seem susceptible to sonic attacks as Nimrod said. I still stand firmly by my point that this attack can be endured. Hercules has endured it and continued on fighting in Captain America: Civil War, I see no reason why Jin doesn't do the same for a second or two. He has shown that he can endure immense pain with little effort (I'll provide scans and context for jin's pain tolerance if needed)
Gallery
For some reason, in the scans above IM implied it affects only the human mind, but I doubt that's really the case, but if it were true, Jin should shrug it off cause he's a god and not human
The only reason he wasn't cut in half was because he raised his arm to block the attack. If his durability was THAT good then why didn't he just stand there and let the blade cut him if it was only capable of cutting a little bit through his shoulder? It would have cut him in half had he not raised his arm to prevent that man from slicing any further
You're misunderstanding. What I meant by durability is that, as you can see the lightning blade didn't touch anything excluding Jin, but why was it able to do so much damage to the planet? Just the wind pressure from hundreds of feet from the ground, cut the planet, yet Jin was unaffected by this same planet-cutting force and only took damage from the blade itself. Basically showing that his durability is higher than the planet's
Jin would be capable of bypassing Iron Man's armor with his staff but let's not forget that that's literally his only option. Iron Man's armor and shields casually tank nukes so there is nothing else he could do to harm Tony. Being a genius and master tactician, Iron Man would be able to figure this out. He would know that he needs to constantly spam and stay moving to avoid being tagged by the staff. He's extremely maneuverable so if he's moving at mach speeds and is maneuvering through the air at an extremely unpredictable level then it would be hard for Jin to aim and properly expand the staff, especially if city-busting attacks are bombarding him.
Are you implying that everyone who has ever physically harmed Tony hit's with the force greater than a nuke?
As for the staff, when Jin commands it, it will without a doubt hit Tony, considering it's speed is far greater than anything he's ever displayed and also taking into account that it can increase in size (length and thickness). When Jin clones himself, the staff covers a large portion of the planet, one-shotting thousands of enemies who were above people who could tank multiple nukes and a giant meteor
The actions of the clones would be exactly the same as the movements of Tony or his A.I. His decoys wouldn't just be some stiff looking distractions that stand there and look pretty. I doubt that Jin could tell the difference until after attacking one. Yeah I guess having a quick reaction time is a good way to counteract the invisibility and illusions but what if Iron Man disguised an illusion to have stealth? As soon as the decoy comes out of stealth mode Jin would react extremely fast to attack and in the middle of the attack, right before Jin realizes it was a trick, here comes an Iron fist flying from out of nowhere at Jin's face at 2386 MPH
No, you slightly misunderstood what I meant when I said he could discern the copies from the real one. I meant it in a more complex way, such as noticing the irregular actions taken in the current situation. Like for example, he'd know that IM is trying to create a diversion and wants to go on the defensive(by him making copies and implementing his camouflage) as you stated previously, so he'd look to see behavior that contradicts this action.
Also this tactic can also be thwarted by Jin making a matching number of clones and eliminating the fakes, which will greatly reduce the chances of a surprise attack
You might argue that Jin could react to even THAT but if he's right in the middle of hitting, what he believes to be the REAL Tony, his reaction would be slightly slower because he would be really surprised by the trick. If that's not convincing enough then he could just do what he's done in the past when dealing with speedsters
It would be pretty hard for Jin to immediately react if he thinks that he finally caught the real Iron Man. He would be surprised and if Tony shot a beam so large that it couldn't be easily dodged (or an Iron fist moving at mach speeds) I think that even with his fast speed and reaction he'd get hit (due mostly to being surprised)
Not to sound like I'm underrating his energy beams but I don't think it's much to a guy who relaxes in lava for 7 weeks and comes out without a single scratch or burn, and I don't think it'll be much considering he's literally ignored lightning hitting him ...and we both know lightning is hotter than the surface of the sun
@unbreakable_fs4 said:
It doesn't really matter that he was depowered. He has shown to be affected by sonic attacks in different scenarios as well
Despite Juggernaut's durability he does seem susceptible to sonic attacks as Nimrod said. I still stand firmly by my point that this attack can be endured. Hercules has endured it and continued on fighting in Captain America: Civil War, I see no reason why Jin doesn't do the same for a second or two. He has shown that he can endure immense pain with little effort (I'll provide scans and context for jin's pain tolerance if needed)
For some reason, in the scans above IM implied it affects only the human mind, but I doubt that's really the case, but if it were true, Jin should shrug it off cause he's a god and not human
Well, to be fair Hercules was off-panel when the sonic attack was being used so we don't really know if he was being affected or not. For all we know he could have been in agonizing pain, similarly to the scan I showed before. Hercules didn't show up until after Tony turned off his sonics after all. I mean if it didn't affect him at all then why didn't he intervene sooner? Plus Hercules and Juggernaut have durability and pain tolerance on a completely other level when compared to Jin. That I know for sure. Saying, "Hercules could do it" or something doesn't help your case because I highly doubt Jin is on the same level as them.
You're misunderstanding. What I meant by durability is that, as you can see the lightning blade didn't touch anything excluding Jin, but why was it able to do so much damage to the planet? Just the wind pressure from hundreds of feet from the ground, cut the planet, yet Jin was unaffected by this same planet-cutting force and only took damage from the blade itself. Basically showing that his durability is higher than the planet's
I think I do understand what you're saying. "The fact that the blade was able to break the planet but not Jin proves he has amazing durability." However, the only reason that Jin didn't get sliced in two is simply because he blocked grabbed that dudes hand and blocked the attack before it could cut too deep. So it's hard to say what his durability level was based on this because it wasn't really pushed far. Can you honestly tell me that if he hadn't blocked that attack his durability would have saved him? No. Otherwise he wouldn't have blocked.
Are you implying that everyone who has ever physically harmed Tony hit's with the force greater than a nuke?
If nukes and hits from Thor and Hulk don't breach his armor then... In my opinion nothing short of that force should be able to harm his suit.
As for the staff, when Jin commands it, it will without a doubt hit Tony, considering it's speed is far greater than anything he's ever displayed and also taking into account that it can increase in size (length and thickness). When Jin clones himself, the staff covers a large portion of the planet, one-shotting thousands of enemies who were above people who could tank multiple nukes and a giant meteor
Yeah I guess using Tony's flight maneuverability is a bad argument in the face of Jin's staff especially if Jin shoots out dozens of them at once that can expand. I'll just abandon ship on that front then. We can agree that if Tony doesn't use his brain and utilize his invisibility and illusions. He'd get crushed.
No, you slightly misunderstood what I meant when I said he could discern the copies from the real one. I meant it in a more complex way, such as noticing the irregular actions taken in the current situation. Like for example, he'd know that IM is trying to create a diversion and wants to go on the defensive(by him making copies and implementing his camouflage) as you stated previously, so he'd look to see behavior that contradicts this action.
Gotcha. Makes more sense.
Also this tactic can also be thwarted by Jin making a matching number of clones and eliminating the fakes, which will greatly reduce the chances of a surprise attack
That's true. I forgot about his clones. Well Iron Man could cover himself better by using a smokescreen. That would give him a lot better cover if he used a hit and run tactic by shooting a repulsor and then quickly going back into stealth mode.
Not to sound like I'm underrating his energy beams but I don't think it's much to a guy who relaxes in lava for 7 weeks and comes out without a single scratch or burn, and I don't think it'll be much considering he's literally ignored lightning hitting him ...and we both know lightning is hotter than the surface of the sun
Actually his repulsors are a little bit more complicated than just being traditional lasers that burn through things. He does have those but his Repulsors are "reactionless force projections -- one way push." So just because Jin is resistant to heat doesn't mean that they wouldn't affect him. He has different types of repulsor beams that he can use. One of them is the burning one that doesn't push you back but just cooks you:
The other one is the one that pushes you back:
And that's my little history lesson about Iron Man's repulsors lol.
Also, I have a question about gas attacks. Does Jin have resistance to them? Because Iron Man can and has used knockout and toxic gas before:
@unbreakable_fs4 said:
Indeed he was but he was right next to him before Tony BFR'd Cap to a different building. As for the pain endurance, Jin has practically fought for days going from battle to battle. He fought four full fights with multiple spear-like constructs through his body. He used a technique multiple times that allows a person to use their body's 100% capacity but the downside is the technique is extremely painful to the point that you die from the shock your body goes through. When someone else tried it she almost passed out from the pain after like a minute. She even goes on to comment on how Jin has used it multiple times while enduring the pain like it doesn't hurt. (tell me if you need scans, i'm too lazy to post it now)
I'm sure he can withstand pain.
It just seems a little odd to me that he waited that long to assist Captain America. Especially when there was a panel that clearly showed Hercules rushing over to help his comrade after noticing Iron Man beating him. You don't have to post scans of those events, I believe you, however, at the end of the day I still don't see his pain tolerance being higher than Juggernaut's. Don't you think Juggernaut could have replicated those feats? Hercules even? Yet they were still harmed by sonic attacks. Even if I were to budge on my opinion of this it wouldn't help Jin's case much. If Jin could withstand the sound, at the very best, his fighting ability would be drastically hindered and his reaction time would be significantly slower. His sonic attacks aren't the same as any other loud noises or sonic attacks. They are designed to put the mind into stasis. He has upgraded and modified weaponry to such a large extent that half of his weapons are unheard of (Repulsor beams).
lol I understand it's a little confusing but that's not what I was saying. What cut the planet wasn't the blade but the force behind the swing. This same force hit Jin along with the blade. He can stop the blade from slicing him but he cant stop the wind-like force that split the planet from hitting him.
Here's an example that may help: If you've ever stood next to the road when a car that's going very fast zooms by, you'll notice you get hit with a strong force or wind. Now this gust of wind doesn't damage you in any way but getting hit by the car at that high speed will. Now, we both know this is fiction but imagine amplifying that wind to the point where it's so strong that it can split the ground past the earth's crust and stretch more than halfway around the planet. Now wouldn't the car be traveling at preposterous speeds to be able to generate such a wind? Wouldn't it make logical sense that getting hit by the car would hurt and damage you more than getting hit by that wind? Jin took the force of the car (the lightning blade) but stopped it (strength feat) and he also took the wind-like force completely with out protection (durability)
Ohh okay that makes more sense. I'm still not on board about how he tanked the wind of that swing though.. By looking at the scan it looks like the wind blew nowhere near Jin.
You misunderstood my statement. I said harm him not breach the suit. Tony has been hurt multiple times without his suit being breached. As you can see in the scan I previously posted, Sentry KO'ed him without breaching his suit
Iron Man's actually created countermeasures for that:
This is a very valid tactic. Jin would most likely rely on quick reactions to save him, I doubt it'll be easy though.
Agreed. He would be almost impossible to detect while being invisible and in smoke.
Thanks for the explanations, I actually didn't know this :)
You're welcome :)
No he doesn't. I am amazed at IM's versatility lol. If he utilizes this tactic, he'd most likely take this fight. If he can quickly use it
Well if Tony could create a giant amount of smoke to engulf the battlefield why not replace the smoke with knockout gas while invisible? The number one reason that I am such a die hard Iron Man fan is due to his versatility. He has so many weapons and gadgets at his disposal that he puts Batman's utility belt to shame lol.
Your posts are pretty badly formatted I can't make head or tails, but how does Iron-Man counter this?
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