iron fist vs lady shiva

Yes it has been stated,,, I will try and find the scans for ya... The martial arts he knows she wouldn't because well its not of earth... And I would never say that Sandra isn't extremely skilled if not the second or third most skilled in all dc because she is that good... Your girl cass and maybe Richard dragon??(Dragon may be just a notch below tho) in her skill class... Well excluding VAL... Cass would be a notch above her because I think her body reading is better?? you probably would know more about that than me tho...I know she beat her twice,, but I really think Sandra was holding back....anyways I will try and find those scans

Iron Fist with chi power

Ok.

Richard Dragon is not as skilled, though they are fairly close...and Cassandra though very good, is not even close to Sandra's skill set...though she would beat her in a fight, due to her childhood under David Cain, allowing her to be able to fluently read Body-Language, and having all the advantages that comes with it...people say, there's no such thing as perfection, but her Body-Reading is as close from it, as comic book character pre cog, can be.

Yup.

I think that reading the body laguage isn't specific to Cassandra Cain and Lady Shiva.
The point is that Lady Shiva have it as in innate ability, that why she is so good.
But can we considerate that all experienced fighters have some degrees of "body language reading", acquired through training and fighting or as an innate ability.
I guess Danny had some, and Taskmaster and Echo (who copies movements with photographic memory), and other experienced martial artist have some degrees of it too.
To win a fight the points that matters are physicals, mental and techniques.

IR

No, reading body language fluently, to the point of looking to someone and being able to see every muscle, every bone and every breath...being able to know what move the opponent will make way before he actually does anything...being able to konw what your opponent is thinking/feeling, etc all by body-reading him, just by looking at him, with a mere glance...that's very much specific to Cassandra Cain.

Now, every TOP-Tier fighter has " a degree " of Body-Reading...but nothing anywhere close to Cassandra Cain...and Lady Shiva is also above most people, because she has mastered the Body-Reading technique, but since she did it through training, and thus, didn't went through the same specific conditions Cassandra has gone through, she is not able to "read" someone as "deeply" as Cassandra can.

Here, a scientist explains to David Cain (Cassandra's father) how Body Language works, and what you would be able to do if you could "read it" fluently, as your first language:

Lady Shiva didn't grew up, like Cass did...Shiva's training, was kinda of "generic", she learned how to read bodies, the same way she learned everything else, by the old fashion way...training/fighting.

Also, Cass has stated on her thoughts, that no amount of martial arts knowledge, substitutes her Body-Reading:

" All this knowledge, no substitue for knowing. "

Which basically means, that Cass would much rather have her Body-Reading, than know all martial arts styles there is.

@bat_girl_cc: Interesting. :)

Sure that helps in a fight if you can pay full attention of what your opponent do.
Has she ever been fooled by someone knowing she has that ability or showing no sign of his next move ?

@bat_girl_cc:

So In your eyes of the dc martial artists not named val, Sandra is the most skilled?? Not that she beats everyone ie slade but she has more skill??

see my top tier for dc would be Sandra, cass, dragon, Wilson, turner, and draken(I know not spelled right) and some put wayne and even hawke in that tier but I think they are notch below the others in terms of skill not that they can't beat the others just not as skilled.... May promethius belongs?? IDK just curious to your thoughts

" Sure that helps in a fight if you can pay full attention of what your opponent do. "

Nope, she doen't need to waste any time...a mere glance at her opponent(s) is enough:

Also, if you read what's stated in the scan where the scientist expains David Cain how Reading Body-Language works, you'll see that it's intuitively for her.

" Has she ever been fooled by someone knowing she has that ability or showing no sign of his next move ? "

Appart from some bad writting, no...because there's really no way to do it...once the Joker did it, and Batman stated that it was because the Joker is crazy, and his Body Language, makes no sense...which is ridiculous...because Cassandra's Body-Reading, has nothing to do, with the fact of her opponents being crazy or not...whatever they do, she'll know way before it happens, and either dodge it, or counter it...also, Cassandra Cain is obviously way faster than the Joker, so Body-Reading or not, the Joker shouldn't be able to tagg her...she has a much better reaction time, having dodged sniper-bullets while having her back turned to the shooter, and with the projectil being just a few inches from her face...and she's also overall way faster than him, having out-paced bullets on panel...so the Joker tagging her is PIS, that alone tells me it was bad-writting.

The only one that can effectively by-pass her Body-Reading, is Deathstroke, and that's because he can control every molecule of his body, also Slade stated that there's only 2 ways of beating Cassandra, from a distance, or by getting inside of her head...Slade can do it, because Slade has drugged her, and turned her into a assassin...well, they have history...in a random encaunter, most people has 0 chances of beating her, specially in Hand-to-Hand.

I agree.

Yep. As in yep it's ridiculous and Joker shouldn't be able to do it, but Deathstroke controlling his muscles not to give anything away has done it.

Not controlling his muscles is not a good idea.
He will sh*t in his pants. ^^

@dimitridkatsis:

Awh I did not know that?? Danny can do that? Is this true??

@axle124: not Danny, Deathstroke. IF would need to focus on his own chi if not the dragon's to take her out.

@dimitridkatsis:

No that is what the drunken style is.. he controls his movements,, He doesn't need chi to do that...

Yeah...about the drunken style.... I don't think it should give him the ability to beat someone with body reading specially not Mister X, I think it's in the WIS, PIS category.

My personal TOP 10:

1) Karate Kid

2) Sa'ar

3) Sensei

4) Cassandra Cain (with Body-Reading)

5) Lady Shiva

6) Richard Dragon

7) Connor Hawke

8) Batman

9) Bronze Tiger

10) Vic Sage

Special Cases:

Wonder Woman - Yeah, Batman once stated that she's the best melee combatant in the world, but with her stats it's really easy to smack people around with ease...with her stats anyone from my list, would whop Superman's a$$ easly...and she has very few skill showings, to belong on my top 10 list.

Prometheus - to me, he doesn't really count, because his skill comes from the others...it comes from his helmet, which contains the martial arts prowess of the 30 best fighters in the world...without it, he would probably get oneshoted by Alfred.

Constantine Drakon - though obviously very skilled, he relies more on his speed, to the point that leads me to belive that he actually depends alot of it...he could actually speed-Blitz most of my list, but as far, as i'm concerned, he does not have more skill than the ones on my list, so he doesn't belong in there.

Cricket - This one, has the same problem that Drakon has...some skill, insane speed, and few explanations...on a Red Robin issue, he speed-blitzed and effortlessy beat up, both Cassandra Cain and Tim Drake, together at the same time, and Cassandra is a high-end bullet timer...but Tim Drake stated that his speed makes it look like he receives power from the speed force...which leads me to belive that he's meta-human.

Sonia Sato - She's very skilled, but her powers, make it unfair for her opponent(s), and i don't even consider them, skill, per-se.

There's others special cases, also i understand that my list is debatable, and comes purely from my opinion, so...anyway, my TOP 10 is the one i wrote down above, and i linked each of them to their comicvine pages, so you can read a bit about each of them, just in case you don't already know them.

" Is this true?? "

Yes

" Danny can do that? "

I don't think he can, Slade controlling every molecule of his Body, has nothing to do, with skill, or special techniques.

@bat_girl_cc:

I like sensai,,, And honestly I don't know enough about Sa'ar to know if he belongs,,, I will have to research Sa'ar to see how good... I agree on drakon,,, never understood why he was so high on peoples list..

Hawke gets beat to much for me to have him in that top tier,, him and Bruce are just a tick below,,, I think bronze tiger is a little more skilled than both of them... You don't think Slade belongs?? even without upgrades he is really skilled....

as far the controlling molecule thing,,, Danny can do it but probably not without using personal chi so that would probably be out... But I still think he is faster than everyone that has hit shiva and has as much power as bruce...

Danny wins via Falcon Punch,!!!

When you do marvel vs dc as in terms of martial artists ie this fight.... you always have to take something away from the marvel character because they have built in advantages ie iron fist, adamantium, healing factor, radar, super soldier serum, herbs, suits and tech... But that doesn't diminish their skill level.. Which is why I feel like if you put a tier one fighter vs a tier one fighter it should be a draw unless you put the conditions to where it favors one over the other... Val and Danny with all chi are completely different tho because they should never lose to anyone.....Gamora in marvel is different too,, I never really know how to classify her,, because she has some superhuman stats and really her skill should be above everyones including val.. but that is another discussion... Anyways I like the discussions,, love the passion of the people on this site and like learning more about characters that I have either forgotten or don't know much about...

Danny only needs to land one punch which he more than capable of. Danny 7/10 times.

Bronze Tiger was up there with Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon, and was probably even better than them...40 years ago!...his best showings are Pre-Crisis/early Post-Crisis...Deathstroke though very skilled, on the aftermatch of a fight against Batman he stated that he wouldn't like to fight Batman without his enhancements...

Danny is not faster than Bruce without his chi amps, and he's certainly not faster than Cassandra Cain.

The same goes for stricking power, Bruce has punched through bazuca proof glass...Cassandra has punched through 3-inch-quartz...what has Danny ever done without chi, that tops that?

@bat_girl_cc:

Well guys stating that don't mean anything,,, Clark said bruce is the baddest man on the planet once...lol... I guess in a sense he is... Ben is under utilized....

As far as Danny and striking power,,, He is on equal ground with bats,,, the problem with that character people are going to interpret any feat he has as him using chi...He doesn't use chi all the time or even most of the time....

Iron Fist

Does Danny has his Chi here?

No Chi: Shiva

Chi: Iron Fist

Bump. I think Danny could take her without his chi.

Shiva would destroy Danny if he has no chi

Danny defintely wins with his chi.

However i think everyones being a bit to brutal on Fist without the chi. Danny has been able to go toe to toe with Matt Murdock, and defeat someone who had his powers with just H2H.

@no_one_expects_the_silver_surf: Agreed. Danny without his chi is as formiddible as Shiva or Cassie skillwise.

@vance_astro: do you think Danny without chi is as skilled as Shiva?

His normal chi is something he trains for and isn't external. The shou lao chi is something different and would make any fight he is in almost unfair. He doesn't lose his skill and is still as fast as bullets with just the chi he trained to use. People don't understand danny.

@newecho: so do you think he's as skilled as her?

danny via chi otherwise shiva in a good fight

@supermanwithatan01: yes...

@newecho: thanks. Lol what's with the elypsis?

@supermanwithatan01: just an ocd thing with me lol

@newecho: lol oh I do the same thing in texts, my gf hates it haha.

Yes.

@vance_astro: Co-signed.

@vance_astro: I appreciate it, what about Cass? (Danny)

Fist wins for sure

I think she's more skilled than him.

Absolutely not.

@vance_astro: really? It's been a point of interest for me lately. I've had to reach out to yourself (Cass) Jash (Danny at their peak no chi), god_spawn (50/50) and wlydsong (Danny) but they seem soo evenly matched. I appreciate your opinion, haha I'm just all mixed up now.

Lady Shiva should take it without chi. Iron Fist takes it with his chi.

This. Iron Fist is strong with chi.

Danny pimp smacks her head right off

I would say Danny, possibly 9/10. He has much greater speed than Shiva. His skill, at worst, provides a low gap. He also has a utility belt of chi tricks.

Only thing is Danny doesn't chi amp in every battle, so I could see Shiva winning some due to CIS.