And it was also stated that Lady Shiva learns 12 new different martial arts styles every year:
It's basically 1 per month...so, in 10 years, she learns 120 different martial arts styles...and in 20 years, she learns 240...And don't even get me started on her fighting record against other TOP Tier fighters...so tell me, are you people basing your claims in something solid? or his you liking Iron Fist more than Shiva, the only thing?
Actually the moves in all martial arts are basically the same.
I mean :All disciplines have basic moves useful in combat, advanced techniques are rarely used except to make the show or in movies choregraphies.
The learning of pressure points will not differ.
For martial arts that uses grappling and articular controls techniques there is not so much differents techniques that you can use in a fight.
I guess it is because of the lack of knowledge of some writers with martial arts.
Secondly, the arts of Kun Lun are far more powerful than everything you can see on Earth.
The best martial artist is ready to kick the ass of a dragon.
About Shadow Dragon two answers comes :
Or he is quicker than the hypersonic combat speed of superman because he has the physicals to do it, so is not human then metahuman.
Or Superman sucks at close combat against human and he fight as the same speed than a human...
The problem is that Lady Shiva is not capable of hypersonic feats, she is human.
If she beat him then she is hypersonic too OR she is not SO shadow dragon is NOT hypersonic.
You can't overcome hypersonic combat speed with skills.
My conclusion :
This is a plot device... Or something really bad written.
1) Yes, many martial arts, are similar to others, but they are not the same! otherwise, it would make no-sense for their existance! there would only be one.
Make money by attracting new students maybe ? (I am not kiddind about it) But if you follow a bit the professional world of fighting like the MMA you already know that the professionals fighters tend to be complete by adding techniques to their basics in other disciplines. So they works on striking techniques, ground techniques, throwing techniques andsubmissions techniques.
2) Lady Shiva is more skilled than Iron Fist, because she has mastered more different martial arts styles than he has, which means that she knows what Danny knows, and knows alot more...also, without his Chi amps (which basically make Danny meta-human) Shiva has a better record against other TOP Tier fighters.
That's not true. Like I said above there is a few ways how to lead an hand-to-hand fights. Actually there is no ways that she knows the techniques that comes from the Mystical City of Kun-Lun, which is not on Earth.
Danny IS actually the best martial artist in Marvel. And the other Immortal Weapons are far more dangerous than Lady Shiva.
3) Everyone was using high-end showings for Danny, so i decided to do the same for Shiva...no human, no matter how skilled he may be, can beat a Dragon in Hand-to-Hand...also, that version of Superman is not as fast as other versions of him, for exemple, i don't recall seeing him, going lightspeed, like ever...he's supersonic though, but in comics crazy skilled martial artists, are capable of doing crazy stuff, like you mentioned, Danny taking on a Dragon in Hand-to-Hand...Shiva has also dodged Supergirl at least once to my knowledge...the point is, we either acknowledge both showings, or we don't acknowledge none, because they are both high-end showings.
Yeah but how do you explain she can fight guys that can stop bullets with their hands then ? She couldn't even touch them with a proper writing. I actually never saw a depowered Iron Fist Versus Thor but he has high showing against Chi powered Martial Arstists like Davos when he his depowered himself, so it is Danny without Iron Fist.
1) I can see your point, but that's no excuse...every character, even just a little capable in comics, knows a bunch of M.A...but very few knows as much as Shiva does, and with the difference being, that she actually masters them!
Yup so does Danny.
2) I'm not sure about those specific styles that Iron Fist has mastered, though...anyway, not enough to compare him to Lady Shiva.
Sure. He is stronger and more skilled.
3) Shiva has dodged bullets at point blank...and has consistently given good fights to her daughter Cassandra Cain, who has dodged bullets after they've been fired dozens of times...Cassandra is also capable of out-pacing bullets, catching shurikens with her fingers, dodge sniper bullets at very close range, etc.
The point is, beating a Dragon in Hand-to-Hand, is not a feat a human can perform...the same goes for Shiva beating someone in Hand-to.Hand that has moved too fast for Superman...even though, stuff like that often happens in comics...so we either acknowledge both, or we acknowledge none.
Not really. There is more consistency in the feats of Iron Fist.
" Yup so does Danny "
really?...and what martial arts styles has he mastered?
Like I said that's not the number of martial arts that maters... The martial arts they uses in the Immortal cities are contested every 88 years in a tournament between the "Immortal Weapons" (like The Iron Fist) since millenaries. And the actual Iron Fist has the knowledge of all Iron Fist before him and is stronger than any predecessors...
" Sure.
He is stronger and more skilled. "
He's stronger with his chi amps, which makes him meta-human, big deal...also, i don't agree that he's more skilled, and i've already said why, and i've also posted proof backing it up, in this page...so, unless you have proof of what you're saying, there's no point in keep on saying it.
He is at base peak human. That means on Captain America level physically. So imagine with the limitless Chi of Shou-Lao. (Yes the Dragon he killed)
There is nothing that proves that Lady Shiva is on the same level.
So he is stronger. About his skill just read again above.
" Not really.
There is more consistency in the feats of Iron Fist. "
What? Danny performs meta-human stuff without his Chi?...i'm going to need proof.
That is not what I said. I just proved in my other post that the feat between Superman / Shadow Dragon / Lady Shiva was inconsistent.
And it was also stated that Lady Shiva learns 12 new different martial arts styles every year:
It's basically 1 per month...so, in 10 years, she learns 120 different martial arts styles...and in 20 years, she learns 240...And don't even get me started on her fighting record against other TOP Tier fighters...so tell me, are you people basing your claims in something solid? or his you liking Iron Fist more than Shiva, the only thing?
Actually the moves in all martial arts are basically the same.
I mean :All disciplines have basic moves useful in combat, advanced techniques are rarely used except to make the show or in movies choregraphies.
The learning of pressure points will not differ.
For martial arts that uses grappling and articular controls techniques there is not so much differents techniques that you can use in a fight.
I guess it is because of the lack of knowledge of some writers with martial arts.
Secondly, the arts of Kun Lun are far more powerful than everything you can see on Earth.
The best martial artist is ready to kick the ass of a dragon.
About Shadow Dragon two answers comes :
Or he is quicker than the hypersonic combat speed of superman because he has the physicals to do it, so is not human then metahuman.
Or Superman sucks at close combat against human and he fight as the same speed than a human...
The problem is that Lady Shiva is not capable of hypersonic feats, she is human.
If she beat him then she is hypersonic too OR she is not SO shadow dragon is NOT hypersonic.
You can't overcome hypersonic combat speed with skills.
My conclusion :
This is a plot device... Or something really bad written.
1) Yes, many martial arts, are similar to others, but they are not the same! otherwise, it would make no-sense for their existance! there would only be one.
Make money by attracting new students maybe ? (I am not kiddind about it) But if you follow a bit the professional world of fighting like the MMA you already know that the professionals fighters tend to be complete by adding techniques to their basics in other disciplines. So they works on striking techniques, ground techniques, throwing techniques andsubmissions techniques.
2) Lady Shiva is more skilled than Iron Fist, because she has mastered more different martial arts styles than he has, which means that she knows what Danny knows, and knows alot more...also, without his Chi amps (which basically make Danny meta-human) Shiva has a better record against other TOP Tier fighters.
That's not true. Like I said above there is a few ways how to lead an hand-to-hand fights. Actually there is no ways that she knows the techniques that comes from the Mystical City of Kun-Lun, which is not on Earth.
Danny IS actually the best martial artist in Marvel. And the other Immortal Weapons are far more dangerous than Lady Shiva.
3) Everyone was using high-end showings for Danny, so i decided to do the same for Shiva...no human, no matter how skilled he may be, can beat a Dragon in Hand-to-Hand...also, that version of Superman is not as fast as other versions of him, for exemple, i don't recall seeing him, going lightspeed, like ever...he's supersonic though, but in comics crazy skilled martial artists, are capable of doing crazy stuff, like you mentioned, Danny taking on a Dragon in Hand-to-Hand...Shiva has also dodged Supergirl at least once to my knowledge...the point is, we either acknowledge both showings, or we don't acknowledge none, because they are both high-end showings.
Yeah but how do you explain she can fight guys that can stop bullets with their hands then ? She couldn't even touch them with a proper writing. I actually never saw a depowered Iron Fist Versus Thor but he has high showing against Chi powered Martial Arstists like Davos when he his depowered himself, so it is Danny without Iron Fist.
1) I can see your point, but that's no excuse...every character, even just a little capable in comics, knows a bunch of M.A...but very few knows as much as Shiva does, and with the difference being, that she actually masters them!
Yup so does Danny.
2) I'm not sure about those specific styles that Iron Fist has mastered, though...anyway, not enough to compare him to Lady Shiva.
Sure. He is stronger and more skilled.
3) Shiva has dodged bullets at point blank...and has consistently given good fights to her daughter Cassandra Cain, who has dodged bullets after they've been fired dozens of times...Cassandra is also capable of out-pacing bullets, catching shurikens with her fingers, dodge sniper bullets at very close range, etc.
The point is, beating a Dragon in Hand-to-Hand, is not a feat a human can perform...the same goes for Shiva beating someone in Hand-to.Hand that has moved too fast for Superman...even though, stuff like that often happens in comics...so we either acknowledge both, or we acknowledge none.
Not really. There is more consistency in the feats of Iron Fist.
" Yup so does Danny "
really?...and what martial arts styles has he mastered?
Like I said that's not the number of martial arts that maters... The martial arts they uses in the Immortal cities are contested every 88 years in a tournament between the "Immortal Weapons" (like The Iron Fist) since millenaries. And the actual Iron Fist has the knowledge of all Iron Fist before him and is stronger than any predecessors...
" Sure.
He is stronger and more skilled. "
He's stronger with his chi amps, which makes him meta-human, big deal...also, i don't agree that he's more skilled, and i've already said why, and i've also posted proof backing it up, in this page...so, unless you have proof of what you're saying, there's no point in keep on saying it.
He is at base peak human. That means on Captain America level physically. So imagine with the limitless Chi of Shou-Lao. (Yes the Dragon he killed)
There is nothing that proves that Lady Shiva is on the same level.
So he is stronger. About his skill just read again above.
" Not really.
There is more consistency in the feats of Iron Fist. "
What? Danny performs meta-human stuff without his Chi?...i'm going to need proof.
That is not what I said. I just proved in my other post that the feat between Superman / Shadow Dragon / Lady Shiva was inconsistent.
Dude, you're not understanding my point...just read though the thread...i've said it like 5 times now...Iron Fist wins with his Chi, and loses without it.
" Like I said that's not the number of martial arts that maters..."
Right...all that matters is that weird tchnique that Danny has mastered...which you think that puts him above someone that has mastered all fighting forms, lol.
" The martial arts they uses in the Immortal cities are contested every 88 years in a tournament between the "Immortal Weapons" (like The Iron Fist) since millenaries.
And the actual Iron Fist has the knowledge of all Iron Fist before him and is stronger than any predecessors..."
That doesn't prove anything...we don't know how skilled the other guys were...so Danny being more skilled than someone who's featless, is a mute point...and the fact that his Chi makes him stronger than the others, or that he's a better Chi user than the others, is also a mute point, because that's not what i'm arguing here, at all!...i'm arguing skill vs skill...i already said that Iron Fist wins here, due to his Chi.
" There is nothing that proves that Lady Shiva is on the same level. "
They are not on the same level...Lady Shiva is more skilled, IMO.
As i said before, Lady Shiva started training Martial Arts with her older sister, since she was a little child...and as a teenager, she almost solo'ed the entire League of Assassins! she was only "stopped" by David Cain (one of Batman's trainers, and a member of the League of Assassins, at the time) who sucker punched Shiva...shortly after that, Shiva stomped him while being pregnant!
She learns 12 new different martial arts styles, every year...so, it's basically 1 per month...that's 120 in 10 years...and in 20 years, it's 240...
And she is a master of all forms of combat:
So please tell me, how is Iron Fist more skilled?
" That is not what I said. I just proved in my other post that the feat between Superman / Shadow Dragon / Lady Shiva was inconsistent. "
I only brought up that exemple (which was a WIS showing) because i saw many people using Danny beating a Dragon in Hand-to-Hand, as a way, to say that he's more skilled...when that was a WIS showing as well...how many times has Iron Fist performed feats, such as beating a Dragon in Hand-to-Hand without his Chi?
@Bat_Girl_CC Mastering all forms of martial arts doesn't mean she is more skilled than danny... That's a dc way of putting her in a tier... Do you think she is more skilled than everyone in DC??? I mean Val, Cass(your girl), Richard Dragon, Ben turner and even slade could all be just as skilled as she is,, well actually Val is so far above her its pitiful... You keep going back to this weird style danny knows that makes him the best... That's not what makes him the best,,, that's just something he can use to beat cass and Sandra... What makes him the best is his training... Is there a character from marvel that could beat a dc top tier person in your eyes????
The drunken thing danny does would create false movements,,, she would read his body one way and he would attack a completely different....
@bat_girl_cc Do you say Val is Meta? He just focuses and uses his chi also... And danny isn't meta,, so just stop with that,,, He does the exact same thing Karate kid does,,, heck most of Marvel martial artist amp their chi.. Ie shang chi.....
Dude, you're not understanding my point...just read though the thread...i've said it like 5 times now...Iron Fist wins with his Chi, and loses without it.
>>>>> I DO ! I am just too stubborn to think that Lady Shiva is superior to Danny without his Chi ! ^^
" Like I said that's not the number of martial arts that maters..."
Right...all that matters is that weird tchnique that Danny has mastered...which you think that puts him above someone that has mastered all fighting forms, lol.
>>>> I gave you my opinion above and I guess you will not change your point of view about it. But I repeat it : the number of martial arts doesnt matters, it's about mastering all aspects in a fight that matters.
" The martial arts they uses in the Immortal cities are contested every 88 years in a tournament between the "Immortal Weapons" (like The Iron Fist) since millenaries.
And the actual Iron Fist has the knowledge of all Iron Fist before him and is stronger than any predecessors..."
That doesn't prove anything...we don't know how skilled the other guys were...so Danny being more skilled than someone who's featless, is a mute point...and the fact that his Chi makes him stronger than the others, or that he's a better Chi user than the others, is also a mute point, because that's not what i'm arguing here, at all!...i'm arguing skill vs skill...i already said that Iron Fist wins here, due to his Chi.
>>>> Can't we say the same about Lady Shiva starring at the first place in the DC World of Martial Arts ? Batman confirms her being so good but the Caped Crusader is clearly less strong than Danny skill wise and physical wise.
" There is nothing that proves that Lady Shiva is on the same level. "
They are not on the same level...Lady Shiva is more skilled, IMO.
>>> Not my opinion ^^ (more scans please, I will try to provide a few more in the week on my own but it will take some time)
As i said before, Lady Shiva started training Martial Arts with her older sister, since she was a little child...and as a teenager, she almost solo'ed the entire League of Assassins! she was only "stopped" by David Cain (one of Batman's trainers, and a member of the League of Assassins, at the time) who sucker punched Shiva...shortly after that, Shiva stomped him while being pregnant!
She learns 12 new different martial arts styles, every year...so, it's basically 1 per month...that's 120 in 10 years...and in 20 years, it's 240...
>>> Like I said I don't see that as a factor.
And she is a master of all forms of combat:
>>> Same about Danny. Even dirty street figthing techniques. And martial arts weapons.
So please tell me, how is Iron Fist more skilled?
>>>> He learned the techniques of all Iron Fist before him. He kicked the ass of the x-mens including Wolverine, Nightcrawler and Colossus without using his Chi.
>>> Dodge a lightning attack from another Immortal Weapon : It is noticeable that Fat Cobra main attribute is his speed even he is very strong (he is super fast in combat)
" That is not what I said. I just proved in my other post that the feat between Superman / Shadow Dragon / Lady Shiva was inconsistent. "
I only brought up that exemple (which was a WIS showing) because i saw many people using Danny beating a Dragon in Hand-to-Hand, as a way, to say that he's more skilled...when that was a WIS showing as well...how many times has Iron Fist performed feats, such as beating a Dragon in Hand-to-Hand without his Chi?
>>>> In fact in order to acquire the Chi of the Dragon Shou-Lao The Undying, Danny has to beat him one-on-one. Numerous people dies trying that.
Davos is as old as Danny's father. He went through the same training regiments as Wendell Rand. Davos has about 28 extra years of fight experience on Danny. On top of that, he received special training from the spirits of past IF. He also stole Danny's IF powers.
Danny without chi defeated a chi amped Davos who has 28 years of fight experience on Danny. So Danny is pretty good, he's one of the best martial artist in Marvel earth.
He heels himself by will... This isn't a chi amp.... I am trying to find the complete Davos fight,, where he has IF powers and gets beat by Danny... Danny is pure skill,,, That's what his character is.... Much like Batman is a great dectective...
@Bat_Girl_CC Mastering all forms of martial arts doesn't mean she is more skilled than danny... That's a dc way of putting her in a tier... Do you think she is more skilled than everyone in DC??? I mean Val, Cass(your girl), Richard Dragon, Ben turner and even slade could all be just as skilled as she is,, well actually Val is so far above her its pitiful... You keep going back to this weird style danny knows that makes him the best... That's not what makes him the best,,, that's just something he can use to beat cass and Sandra... What makes him the best is his training... Is there a character from marvel that could beat a dc top tier person in your eyes????
The drunken thing danny does would create false movements,,, she would read his body one way and he would attack a completely different....
Shiva is more skilled than anyone you just mentioned, minus Karate Kid...but then again, nobody can/should be compared to him...he has no Chi, whatsoever...and he does crazy stuff that most meta-humans can only dream about doing, with no explanation, other than him being crazy skilled...anyway, Iron Fist even with full acess to his Chi can't be compared to K.K...Val, shatters meteors with kicks...causes earthquakes just by stomping the ground...levels montains with one hit...takes out Aliens with Super-human durabillity, with one hit...consistently beats Superman level characters in Hand-to-Hand...etc...he's a PIS machine, but then again it's consistent, so yeah...doesn't make any sense, though.
" Is there a character from marvel that could beat a dc top tier person in your eyes???? "
It depends of who we are talking about...Daredevil is a class 7 fighter in Marvel, which is the highest, right?...and some people that i know, would argue that Nightwing is better than him...then you got guys like Black Panther who is class 6 by Marvel hand-books, and some people that i know, would argue that he can beat Batman, in Hand-to-Hand, no gear...the point is, when i say that i think that, in raw skill: Lady Shiva > Iron Fist, i'm being honest...and to answer your question, one guy from Marvel that i think that can beat Shiva in Hand-to-Hand is Mister-X, simply because Shiva has fought mind-readers before and that didn't worked well for her.
" The drunken thing danny does would create false movements,,, she would read his body one way and he would attack a completely different.... "
Much like Cassandra Cain, Lady Shiva can also read bodies, but her Body-Reading, is not as good, or as "deep" if you will, as Cassandra's, because she learned and mastered her own version of the Body-Reading technique, through simple training...so, she wasn't born and raised in the same way that Cassie was, which according to the scientist that told David Cain about the Body-Reading in the first place, it's the only way, to effectively, be able to fully read Body-Lauguage...so i'm not sure of how it would go down, regarding Danny's Druken style against Shiva's own version of the Body-Reading...though, Sandra should still be able to Body-Read him.
@bat_girl_cc Do you say Val is Meta? He just focuses and uses his chi also... And danny isn't meta,, so just stop with that,,, He does the exact same thing Karate kid does,,, heck most of Marvel martial artist amp their chi.. Ie shang chi.....
Danny is nothing like Karate Kid...unless for both being labeled as the number 1 in the respective universes...Karate Kid is more Superman level, than Street-level...Danny is not meta-human, when he doesn't get amped by his chi...when he does, he becomes meta, because he's able to do stuff, that's beyond peak-human limits.
Shiva's extremely inconsistent. But I give her the edge if we're using her peak showings. Move prediction, body reading, mastery of an untold number of martial arts, insta learning/mimicking other fighters moves, casual bullet time, and a hobby of finding the best martial artist in the world and killing them in one on one fights. As long as we're not seeing insane chi stuff a non jobbing Shiva would crush.
That said Fist takes it 4.5/10 because he doesn't job nearly as much and has obvious chi amp.
Dude, you're not understanding my point...just read though the thread...i've said it like 5 times now...Iron Fist wins with his Chi, and loses without it.
>>>>> I DO ! I am just too stubborn to think that Lady Shiva is superior to Danny without his Chi ! ^^
" Like I said that's not the number of martial arts that maters..."
Right...all that matters is that weird tchnique that Danny has mastered...which you think that puts him above someone that has mastered all fighting forms, lol.
>>>> I gave you my opinion above and I guess you will not change your point of view about it.
But I repeat it : the number of martial arts doesnt matters, it's about mastering all aspects in a fight that matters.
" The martial arts they uses in the Immortal cities are contested every 88 years in a tournament between the "Immortal Weapons" (like The Iron Fist) since millenaries.
And the actual Iron Fist has the knowledge of all Iron Fist before him and is stronger than any predecessors..."
That doesn't prove anything...we don't know how skilled the other guys were...so Danny being more skilled than someone who's featless, is a mute point...and the fact that his Chi makes him stronger than the others, or that he's a better Chi user than the others, is also a mute point, because that's not what i'm arguing here, at all!...i'm arguing skill vs skill...i already said that Iron Fist wins here, due to his Chi.
>>>> Can't we say the same about Lady Shiva starring at the first place in the DC World of Martial Arts ? Batman confirms her being so good but the Caped Crusader is clearly less strong than Danny skill wise and physical wise.
" There is nothing that proves that Lady Shiva is on the same level. "
They are not on the same level...Lady Shiva is more skilled, IMO.
>>> Not my opinion ^^ (more scans please, I will try to provide a few more in the week on my own but it will take some time)
As i said before, Lady Shiva started training Martial Arts with her older sister, since she was a little child...and as a teenager, she almost solo'ed the entire League of Assassins! she was only "stopped" by David Cain (one of Batman's trainers, and a member of the League of Assassins, at the time) who sucker punched Shiva...shortly after that, Shiva stomped him while being pregnant!
She learns 12 new different martial arts styles, every year...so, it's basically 1 per month...that's 120 in 10 years...and in 20 years, it's 240...
>>> Like I said I don't see that as a factor.
And she is a master of all forms of combat:
>>> Same about Danny. Even dirty street figthing techniques. And martial arts weapons.
So please tell me, how is Iron Fist more skilled?
>>>> He learned the techniques of all Iron Fist before him. He kicked the ass of the x-mens including Wolverine, Nightcrawler and Colossus without using his Chi.
>>> Dodge a lightning attack from another Immortal Weapon : It is noticeable that Fat Cobra main attribute is his speed even he is very strong (he is super fast in combat)
" That is not what I said. I just proved in my other post that the feat between Superman / Shadow Dragon / Lady Shiva was inconsistent. "
I only brought up that exemple (which was a WIS showing) because i saw many people using Danny beating a Dragon in Hand-to-Hand, as a way, to say that he's more skilled...when that was a WIS showing as well...how many times has Iron Fist performed feats, such as beating a Dragon in Hand-to-Hand without his Chi?
>>>> In fact in order to acquire the Chi of the Dragon Shou-Lao The Undying, Danny has to beat him one-on-one. Numerous people dies trying that.
I saw your scans, Iron Fist's hits were having no effect on Logan, and at some point, Danny stated that he knows that he can't beat Wolverine without his Chi, then, he defeated him, by out-smarting him, by turning Wolverine's own momentum against him...and he used his Chi to take out Colossus...the only one that Danny actually out-skilled, was Nightcrawler...it's debatable if Lady Shiva couldn't do the same...also, Danny toke him out, via sucker punch...skill-wise, it wasn't a very impressive showing, and to me, the most impressive part, was Danny landing hits on Logan, but Logan said that his hits did nothing on him, which kinda of implies that he could be letting Danny hit him, since, Logan knows, that he can tank Danny's hits.
As for his fight against Sabertooth, it was a good showing of Danny's skill, no doubt, and he proved that he's much more skilled than his opponent there...but then again, in your scan, Danny stated that Sabertooth only relies on raw strengh...so, i don't see how that proves that he's more skilled than Lady Shiva...on a side note, Shiva has completely embarassed Killer Croc, she out-skilled him, to the point of humilliation...those instances, are good skill showings, but they don't prove that one is more skilled than the other, since they are much more skilled than their opponents...Danny beat Sabertooth without seeing...while Shiva, stomped Killer Croc, like this:
Lady Shiva could replycate everything else, minus the Dragon feat, probably...(WIS)...actually, people saying that Danny can beat Dragon's in Hand-to-Hand without using his Chi, was the reason why i brought up the Shadow Dragon feat, in the first place, which is also a WIS showing.
" >>>> In fact in order to acquire the Chi of the Dragon Shou-Lao The Undying, Danny has to beat him one-on-one. Numerous people dies trying that. "
Numerous FEATLESS people!...this is what i was saying early...we can't quantify the skill of those people...so Danny beating them, or performing better than them, it's not very impressive...it becomes a fodder-feat.
" >>>>> I DO ! I am just too stubborn to think that Lady Shiva is superior to Danny without his Chi ! ^^
>>>> I gave you my opinion above and I guess you will not change your point of view about it.
>>> Like I said I don't see that as a factor."
Yeah, i can see that we are going to have, to agree to disagree.
I saw your scans, Iron Fist's hits were having no effect on Logan, and at some point, Danny stated that he knows that he can't beat Wolverine without his Chi, then, he defeated him, by out-smarting him, by turning Wolverine's own momentum against him...and he used his Chi to take out Colossus...the only one that Danny actually out-skilled, was Nightcrawler...it's debatable if Lady Shiva couldn't do the same...also, Danny toke him out, via sucker punch...skill-wise, it wasn't a very impressive showing, and to me, the most impressive part, was Danny landing hits on Logan, but Logan said that his hits did nothing on him, which kinda of implies that he could be letting Danny hit him, since, Logan knows, that he can tank Danny's hits.
>>> The important thing is that he can those guys who are far above Lady Shiva or Batman. And wolverine is stated as an overall better fighter than Danny. But I agree it is debatable. The point is that Logan skull is inderstrucble and absorb a lot of the impact.
As for his fight against Sabertooth, it was a good showing of Danny's skill, no doubt, and he proved that he's much more skilled than his opponent there...but then again, in your scan, Danny stated that Sabertooth only relies on raw strengh...so, i don't see how that proves that he's more skilled than Lady Shiva...on a side note, Shiva has completely embarassed Killer Croc, she out-skilled him, to the point of humilliation...those instances, are good skill showings, but they don't prove that one is more skilled than the other, since they are much more skilled than their opponents...Danny beat Sabertooth without seeing...while Shiva, stomped Killer Croc, like this:
Lady Shiva could replycate everything else, minus the Dragon feat, probably...(WIS)...actually, people saying that Danny can beat Dragon's in Hand-to-Hand without using his Chi, was the reason why i brought up the Shadow Dragon feat, in the first place, which is also a WIS showing.
>>>>>>>>>> Danny was blinded by the reflection of the snow at the beginning of the fight. And a long time before his upgrade..
***those instances, are good skill showings, but they don't prove that one is more skilled than the other, since they are much more skilled than their opponents >>> I agree.
" >>>> In fact in order to acquire the Chi of the Dragon Shou-Lao The Undying, Danny has to beat him one-on-one. Numerous people dies trying that. "
Numerous FEATLESS people!...this is what i was saying early...we can't quantify the skill of those people...so Danny beating them, or performing better than them, it's not very impressive...it becomes a fodder-feat.
Actually not >>>> There is a few stories about some of those Iron Fist and they are pretty impressive. I don't have the scans for now.
" >>>>> I DO ! I am just too stubborn to think that Lady Shiva is superior to Danny without his Chi ! ^^
>>>> I gave you my opinion above and I guess you will not change your point of view about it.
>>> Like I said I don't see that as a factor."
Yeah, i can see that we are going to have, to agree to disagree. >>>> Yep.
And again, he beats Sabretooth WITHOUT Chi at a disadvantage.
Skill wise, Iron Fist is a beast even without Chi.
Here he defeats him a 3rd time using his personal chi without the dragon chi. He was weakened and exhausted going into this fight. Danny is capable of taking his face bashed into layers of bricks meaning there's nothing behind these bricks besides more bricks and concrete.
Gallery
Here Danny defeats Davos without chi using various martial art styles. Again, Danny is at a disadvantage as Davos has stolen his powers from him. Here Danny shows that his striking ability by kicking Davo's face into concrete breaking it apart and then punching Davo's face straight into the concrete again breaking it apart. This showcases how strong and durable Davos is as well.
Real fast, I want to show a quick strength, skill and balance feat of Danny's, he's capable of lifting a 120 lbf female up with his leg and hold her while she slides down his body like a pole on a uneven surface (a bed).
Gallery
Here's another speed feat also, this one is on Drako Constantine's level or I would argue even above as these babies are smaller, faster and harder to see than Arrows fired by the green arrow family. Not only that but he's only a few feet away, this is more than likely superior to Drakon's feat.
I also want to mention something else. Here Lady Shiva receives a strong kick from Connor Hawke and she breaks and fractures some ribs.
If that's all it takes to hurt Lady Shiva, Danny can strike with far greater force than that. Again with the Davos feat he's kicked and punched Davos twice so hard that concrete all around them broke apart. He easily blows condensed martial art wooden dummies apart.
Lady Shiva is going to have to hit Danny hard if she wants to knock him out, and that's not easy. Danny took multiple hits from Fat Cobra (who can punch peoples face and cause them to explode into pieces) and he's taken a heavy hit from Prince of Orphins as well.
Skill wise I would say they are about equal. Strength wise, IF seems to have the upper hand seeing that he's a male (not being sexist here but it's just anatomy, science you know). Striking feats wise, I'm sure Lady Shiva has equal feats, but can she bust a large area of concrete on the ground apart like IF? Can she block and chop metal swords like IF? Can she kick apart wooden trees like IF? Speed wise, I'm sure lady Shiva also has some nice speed feats, but is she as fast as Drakon Constantine who I showed IF is faster than? Durability wise, it seems Danny can take a lot more than she can. Danny can have his head bashed into layers of brick walls, take superhuman hits to the face and body by fat cobra and stay conscious, take a heavy hit from Prince of Orphans. Danny can deliver a blow a lot better than Connor Hawke's kick that broke Lady Shivas bones.
I would say for now that Danny has the advantage in too many areas. Speed, strength, durability and possibly striking power. Even if someone could argue that Lady Shiva is slightly more skilled, is she better in speed, strength and durability than Danny? Danny is too skilled for Lady Shiva to land any advance moves like nerve strikes, etc. She has to knock him out, and it takes a lot to easily knock someone like IF out which has been shown above.
Shiva isn't more skilled than the people I named. ... she is as skilled as them and could beat them all exception of Val and slade.... but she could also be beat by any of those guys too... and beating shao Lao is not wis because that is how he got his iron fist and other iron fist have done the same thing.... wolverine isn't more skilled than danny.... he has a built in advantage ie slade but he isn't near what danny is in the skill department... t challa is probably the closest to danny in the skill department. .. but t challa and wolverine both beat shiva... you would have to handicap them for her to have a chance ie take healing factor and panthers suit and tech...
The Davos fight is an awesome sign of skill...he beat someone whom stole his power and who had the same training he has had for even longer....
And val uses chi... he concentrates and focuses himself to find weak points in everything ie what danny does...
Wouldn't she notice his glowing fist and just move out of the way? Isnt one of her main skills to be able to read her opponents body language first andavoid damage altogether?
Also what kind of tanking ability does Ironfist have. Because can't Shiva one shot one kill an opponent of human durability?
1) I know about the Iron Fist vs Sabertooth fight, which is, no doubt, a good showing of skill on Danny's part...but, the problem is, Danny stated that Sabertooth only relies on raw strengh...he didn't used any skill...that's like the Lady Shiva vs Killer Croc fight, that i posted, Shiva humilliated him, without trying...but the problem is, neither Killer Croc or Sabertooth, are even close to being as skilled as Shiva, or Danny are...so, they being defeated by Shiva, or Danny, is a mute point, in a debate about Shiva and Danny's skill.
2) How skilled is Davos?...what skill feats does he have?...also, posting scans of a no-chi Danny beating another Iron Fist, with Danny only using skill, was a bad move from your part...because now, i'm thinking that Shiva can beat Danny with or without chi.
3) Lmao, at Danny being faster than Constantine Drakon!...
Lady Shiva's daughter, Cassandra Cain, is capable of moving at blurring speeds:
She's also, faster than a bullet:
And Shiva fought her 5 times, and she never had a problem with Cassandra's speed...here is a good exemple of it, the closest fight they ever had, with both of them on their prime:
From right, to left:
Gallery
And Shiva, (barely) defeated Connor Hawke 1-on-1:
From right, to left:
Gallery
the same Connor Hawke that Drakon stomped 3 times.
Here is Drakon owning and speed-blitzing Connor:
Danny is a turtle compared to Drakon.
4) Lady Shiva is as durable as Danny is, without his Chi amps...they are both peak-humans.
5) " Lady Shiva is going to have to hit Danny hard if she wants to knock him out, and that's not easy. "
Lady Shiva has mastered the Leopard Blow, which is a technique, that allows her to kill anyone with one hit, one touch...it's not a matter of strengh, or even stricking power, but rather skill...which is what i've been saying all along...Danny wins this here, due to his chi amps...but he would lose without them, due to Shiva being more skilled than him.
1. The croc fight, all you showed was croc talking and her attacking him while his guard was down. Danny was exhausted and sick when he faced Sabretooth, he was actually tired and not on his A game and was more worried about keeping civilians safe. I wasn't trying to use it to compare with the croc fight, but I want to expand on the context of Danny's showings against Sabretooth regardless if he relies on brute strength.
2. "How skilled is Davos?...what skill feats does he have?...also, posting scans of a no-chi Danny beating another Iron Fist, with Danny only using skill, was a bad move from your part...because now, i'm thinking that Shiva can beat Danny with or without chi."
Is this a argument? This sounds like you're just trying to downplay Danny. Davos has been training in martial arts for about 25+ years on top of Danny. He trained in Ku'n Lun and he also trained with past Iron Fist when his spirit was absorbed in a gem. He was able to stalemate and beat Iron Fist early in his career. This was an Iron Fist that was stalemating Shang Chi. So Davos is on Shang Chi's level of experience. Lets try and not downplay Danny's feat of defeating someone on Shang Chi's level that had the power of the Iron Fist. On top of that, the speeds they were moving were at blur speeds.
Since then, Danny has had numerous training regiments that have made him better such as training for the immortal weapons tournament and also having gained a few more years of experience being captured in the 8th mystical city. Danny has overcome Mister X's abilities on the whim also, no one has ever been able to tag Mister X this easily. Mister X is someone that has defeated Taskmaster and Wolverine.
3. So Drakon's best speed feat is catching a bunch of arrows? Danny slapped a bunch of bullet like projectiles out of midair fired at blank range. Shang Chi has moved faster than bullets plenty of times as well, he regularly deflects bullets in with his bracelets also.
That doesn't mean Iron Fist has trouble with Shang Chi speed when they have fought before. I understand what you are trying to say, it's exactly what Danny is saying here against a speedster who can run and move at Mach speeds (I will confirm this when I get a chance to go revisit it in the comic).It's the skill of the delivery, not just the speed which I agree. But Danny can move at fast speeds and is skilled himself.
But I'm just showing you that these characters have moved at blur speeds as well. There's a scan I'm trying to track down that shows Danny actually moving and attacking a man while the bullet is still leaving the barrel and he knocks him out. Here's comparative showing to Cassandra's "blur" speed movement, Danny is surrounded by guards and he takes them out in a circle before they can realize they're being attacked.
And fat Cobra's speed who Danny was able to engage also. He knocks out a group of hydra thugs in a instant.
Again, I understand what you're trying to say, Cassandra is faster than a bullet and Lady Shiva goes at it with her. Same concept, Shang Chi can move faster than a bullet, and Iron Fist puts up with his speed. Danny can also move faster than a bullet if he needs to. Danny was able to slap out a bunch of flechettes that are smaller, harder to see and faster than those arrows fired by the arrow family. Has Cassandra or Drakon slapped dozens of similar like projectiles like Danny did?
4. To do the Leopard blow, she had to knock Connor out. She wasn't able to just perform the Leopard blow. That's the same as me saying Danny is easily going to land the same nerve strike that disabled Davos whole entire body and caused him to lose the fight. Where has she landed the leopard blow against someone as skilled as Iron Fist easily? She would have to build up a lot of damage to weaken Danny, and what I have shown, it would take a lot of damage to weaken Danny so she could land the blow. Danny has agility and defensive skills that would make it hard for Lady Shiva to easily land the Leopard blow just like it would be hard for Danny to land Wa-Lu stomp nerve strike on Lady Shiva. It will take damage on both parties to land such a hit, and I've shown what Danny can take. You can bash his head into layers of brick walling and shoot him from one mountain to another or pound him with blows like this.
It seems that Lady Shiva is incapable of delivering the amount of damage it would require to exhaust Iron Fist, and Danny could kick with greater force than Connor can to do more than break a few of Lady Shivas ribs.
1) You missed the point...the point is not which feat is more impressive...the point is, both feats are irrelevant, because Shiva and Danny didn't out-fight fighters of their level of skill, they out-fighted 2 characters that are leagues below them in skill...and i brought up, the Killer Croc instance, to compare them, to help explain this.
2) " Is this a argument? This sounds like you're just trying to downplay Danny. Davos has been training in martial arts for about 25+ years on top of Danny. He trained in Ku'n Lun and he also trained with past Iron Fist when his spirit was absorbed in a gem. He was able to stalemate and beat Iron Fist early in his career. "
Here is the thing, i'm not trying to downplay Danny, and none of that puts either Danny or Davos, on Lady Shiva's level of skill...which is what i'm saying since the begining...look here:
Master of all fighting forms:
Learns 12 new different martial arts styles, every year:
It's pretty much one per month...in 10 years, that's 120 different martial arts styles...and in 20 years it's 240...Shiva started very young, so do the math...
" This was an Iron Fist that was stalemating Shang Chi. So Davos is on Shang Chi's level of experience. Lets try and not downplay Danny's feat of defeating someone on Shang Chi's level that had the power of the Iron Fist. Since then, Danny has had numerous training regiments that have made him better such as training for the immortal weapons tournament and also having gained a few more years of experience being captured in the 8th mystical city. Danny has overcome Mister X's abilities on the whim also, no one has ever been able to tag Mister X this easily. Mister X is someone that has defeated Taskmaster and Wolverine. "
Stallemating Shang Chi is very impressive, but if Danny was able to beat Davos while only using skill, then, Shiva should be able to do the same, since skill is something that she's full of.
Overcoming Mister-X special abillity is very impressive, but that doesn't matter regarding what is being debated here, Mister-X is very skilled, but he's basically a mind-reader...and he was able to beat the others thanks to his special abillity, when Wolverine went bersek he beat Mister-X...he's not a good exemple to compare to a fight between Shiva and Danny.
3) You missed the point again...Drakon dodging arrows is just is "hobby"...the point, is that he has the speed, to Blitz a peak-human bullet-timer...which is what Danny, Shiva, Cass, and Connor, are...peak-human bullet-timers, and those are turtles in comparison to Drakon.
Cassandra Cain is a high-end bullet-timer, and she has better speed-feats than Danny, if you want i can post dozens of scans with her dodging multiple bullets after they've been fired...moving too fast for the human eye to perceive, etc...and Shiva was able to contend with her speed, just fine, meanwhile Connor Hawke was able to contend with both, and he got speed-blitzed, and stomped by Drakon, who was just toying around with him.
4) " To do the Leopard blow, she had to knock Connor out. She wasn't able to just perform the Leopard blow. That's the same as me saying Danny is easily going to land the same nerve strike that disabled Davos whole entire body and caused him to lose the fight. Where has she landed the leopard blow against someone as skilled as Iron Fist easily? "
Nope, She can do it, whenever she wants to, the thing is, the Leopard Blow, it's her finishing blow...it's one of those moves, that you only try, when nothing else works...and yeah, she has landed the leopard blow against TOP Tier fighters before...Richard Dragon!:
She defeated him, and killed him, with the Leopard Blow, and Dragon wasn't tired, or exausted or anything like that...here is the full fight:
From right, to left:
Gallery
Also, during her last fight against her daughter, Cassie, Shiva's attacks were pretty destructive...i'm pretty sure, that she could K.O Danny with her blows.
Still, Shiva can kill him, with the leopard blow, so...whatever.
1. I think you missed the point. Killer Croc =/= Sabretooth in skill level whatsoever. @wolverine08 could back me up on this. You're showing a scan of Killer Croc distracted with Lady Shiva talking and Lady Shiva throwing a cheap shot at him during this instance. It's not like IF went "SABRETOOTH! WHAT IS THAT BEHIND YOU!" *Sabretooth turns around and Iron Fist starts to attack*.
2. Since when has quantity equaled quality? Connor Hawke gave her a run for her money and did pretty well against her, is he a master of every single form of combat? No he's not? And if your argument is that she knows every martial arts so she can counter them, she doesn't know Ku'n Lun martial arts, so Danny will come in on top of all the martial arts he knows and one she's not familiar with.
3. Yes, I understand that and those are fair points. My point is that Danny has a reflex showing that is more than impressive than Drakon's catching those arrows, so it'll be hard for Lady Shiva to just go in and Leopard Blow Danny with his kind of speed and reflexes, is that not a fair point? Drakon beating up the Arrow family was not just a blitz, he was also more skilled than they were, so that wasn't just speed and being overwhelmed by speed it was a combination of his skill and speed.
4. First, thanks for those scans and sharing full context behind the whole fight. I appreciate it. You're showing me scans of Lady Shiva getting help defeating Richard Dragon...
Danny's not in that same scenario here, people aren't going to interfere with the fight to let Lady Shiva catch her breath. The showing I showed had Danny actually land his nerve strike mid strikes. Don't forget that they were fighting at blur speeds where the audiences couldn't see them fight anymore.
5. Could you explain to me what kind of level of destruction you are trying to showcase there?
The whole reason why I brought up strength, speed, durability and striking power is because your argument banks of pure skill only, Lady Shiva doesn't have showings that put her on par with Danny when you compare physicals. Danny being able to defeat Sabretooth while weakened is a skill feat, the Killer Croc eye poke doesn't compare. Danny defeating Davos amped up on chi is another skill feat. Davos is someone Danny has said is on Shang-Chi's level. He's also been able to catch Spider-man and hit Spider-man.
Gallery
Gallery
Lets not forget his showing against Mister X either, someone that does this. The last showing is a good one because DP's mind was more of a distraction and Mister X was still skilled enough to get the best of him.
Gallery
Danny is a skilled man and I would say he's on par with her skill wise. If you disagree that he's as skilled as her, you haven't countered how he physically outmatches her in durability, strength and striking power.
Richard Dragon and Cassandra Cain got nothing on Iron Fist when it comes to striking ability. Your whole argument has now banked on Lady Shiva landing a leopard blow. Iron Fist doesn't need a fancy name for his striking ability, Iron Fist can just land any of his strikes and hits that chop down a monster, blow trees and wooden dummies apart and breaks apart a human size area of concrete on the ground, something with more devistation than that kick Connor landed or that uppercut from Richard Dragon that downed Lady Shiva which gave her a bloody nose. But he doesn't even need to throw all that effort in, he can land fast swifter blows like the Wa-Lu stomp nerve strike.
1) " I think you missed the point. Killer Croc =/= Sabretooth in skill level whatsoever. @wolverine08 could back me up on this. You're showing a scan of Killer Croc distracted with Lady Shiva talking and Lady Shiva throwing a cheap shot at him during this instance. It's not like IF went "SABRETOOTH! WHAT IS THAT BEHIND YOU!" *Sabretooth turns around and Iron Fist starts to attack*."
Seriously??...why do you continue to reply to me, if you don't read my replies?...i going to say it again...the point is not which feat was more impressive...the point was neither is relevent in a Lady Shiva vs Danny, skill vs skill debate, because they both defeated opponents that are far below them in skill, and i gave you the Shiva vs Killer Croc exemple, to help expain this...also, what you're saying about the Shiva vs killer Croc fight, is complete non-sense, Shiva just falt-out humilliated him, there's no way to get around that...also, you should ready your own scans!...Sabertooth may or may not be more skilled than Killer Croc, but the fact is, in the first fight that you posted, Danny stated that Sabertooth only relies on raw strengh, and that he has no martial arts skill...and on the second, it was stated that it was a fight between the animal against the discipline...so, even if Sabertooth is very skilled, he wasn't using any skill against Danny on their fights, so Danny basically defeated a opponent with no skill.
2) " Since when has quantity equaled quality? Connor Hawke gave her a run for her money and did pretty well against her, is he a master of every single form of combat? No he's not? And if your argument is that she knows every martial arts so she can counter them, she doesn't know Ku'n Lun martial arts, so Danny will come in on top of all the martial arts he knows and one she's not familiar with.
In my opinion, if the fighter "A" is more knowledgeable in martial arts, and has more training, than the fighter "B"...then, the fighter "A" is defenitely better and more complete, than the fighter "B"...therefor, he is much more likely to win a fight between the 2.
Connor Hawke is pretty good, but he's no Shiva, and that's why he lost, just like Danny would lose, if he fought Lady Shiva, without his chi amps.
Also, did i mentioned that Lady Shiva has mastered the Body-Reading technique?...
During a fight between Cassie and Shiva, Cass noted that Shiva is also able to "read her opponents":
at the time, Cassandra had lost, her own abillity to Body-Read, and that's why, she got stomped like that...regardless, without his Chi, Danny is going down, no matter what weird techniques he has mastered.
3) " Yes, I understand that and those are fair points. My point is that Danny has a reflex showing that is more than impressive than Drakon's catching those arrows, so it'll be hard for Lady Shiva to just go in and Leopard Blow Danny with his kind of speed and reflexes, is that not a fair point? Drakon beating up the Arrow family was not just a blitz, he was also more skilled than they were, so that wasn't just speed and being overwhelmed by speed it was a combination of his skill and speed. "
I don't think that Drakon is more skilled than Connor Hawke...if you look at the their fight that i posted, you'll see that he's moving so fast, that the arrow family just can't keep up...they aren't able to dodge, or to counter any of his attacks, he lands hit after hit, and the reader gets the impression, that they don't even see him moving, it's like they only hear his voice, and they got hit, right after...he is clearly blitzing them, there.
Also, every single opponent that Drakon has ever faced, mentioned his insane speed...Drakon has few appearences, and the writters didn't had enough time and space, to fully explain how he does what he does, and if he's meta-human or not, but everytime he appears, it's always implyed that he does what he does, due to being faster than everyone else.
I also disagree with Danny having better reflexes than Lady Shiva, who is a bullet-timer:
From right, to left:
Gallery
I'd say their reflexes are pretty much the same.
4) " First, thanks for those scans and sharing full context behind the whole fight. I appreciate it. You're showing me scans of Lady Shiva getting help defeating Richard Dragon..."
What help?...Shiva clearly stated that she wantted no help, and then she proceeded to take them out, one by one...something that Dragon wasn't able to do...if anything, it could be said that Shiva got the wrost of it, because she had the trouble of taking them down, while Dragon had time to rest, since all they did, was pulling Dragon off of Shiva, and restraining him, then Dragon just stood still, watching Shiva taking them down...also, we don't know what would have happened if Shiva's followers hadn't interfered...yeah, it looks like she would lose, but Shiva could have dodged the blow, theres no way to know that...what we do know, is that they had a amazing, and very even fight, with each of them, having one opportunity to finish off the other, Dragon couldn't take advantage of his, while Shiva toke advantage of her's.
" Danny's not in that same scenario here, people aren't going to interfere with the fight to let Lady Shiva catch her breath. The showing I showed had Danny actually land his nerve strike mid strikes. Don't forget that they were fighting at blur speeds where the audiences couldn't see them fight anymore. "
On this post, i already posted a scan of Lady Shiva paralysing Cassandra Cain, with one nerve-strike...also, i mentioned before, Lady Shiva has consistently keep up with her daughter in combat, who is someone that has consistently dodged bullets after they've been fired, moved too fast to be seen, etc.
5) Nope, Danny has better physicals than Shiva, ONLY with his chi amps...which makes him basically, a "amped peak-human"...without his chi, they are at the same level, IMO.
Nope, Lady Shiva has feats of taking on faster opponents than her, as well.
Here, she defeats the Shadow Dragon, in Hand-to-Hand:
From right, to left:
Gallery
Someone who's speed has impressed even Superman!:
The scans are not in the correct order, i also don't have the full scans of their fight, but the important thing here, is what Superman states...just read what he says.
" Richard Dragon and Cassandra Cain got nothing on Iron Fist when it comes to striking ability. Your whole argument has now banked on Lady Shiva landing a leopard blow. Iron Fist doesn't need a fancy name for his striking ability, Iron Fist can just land any of his strikes and hits that chop down a monster, blow trees and wooden dummies apart and breaks apart a human size area of concrete on the ground"
You clearly, don't know, who Cassandra Cain is...
Here you have some of the stricking power feats:
Some feats are in more than one scan, which you can see from right, to left:
1. Am I not supposed to reply to you to clear up any miscommunications we may be having? My point was that you underrate Sabretooth, he’s not as skill defecent as someone like killer croc. Sure Danny is more skilled than he is, but the context was that Danny had already gone through other battles, was exhausted and sick himself and beat Sabretooth who has a gap in skill compared to Killer Croc. There’s no analogy when you compare Lady Shiva’s showing with killer croc with Danny’s showing against Sabretooth, even with the whole comparison of skill gaps you try to present, it doesn’t compare when you have Lady Shiva doing a cheap shot to Danny not having such an advantage over Sabretooth and actually coming in with a disadvantage himself. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
2. Connor Hawke is definitely good in skill, there’s no doubt about that when you have someone like Batman and Nightwing say so themselves. But does Connor Hawke have feats like Danny? Is he physically as fast, strong, durable and has the striking power on par with Danny? I believe he doesn’t, and that’s why Lady Shiva can’t’ defeat Danny like she did Connor Hawke. Danny has a martial arts style that Lady Shiva has never seen before and your whole argument was that she can easily read his body when he has overcome a martial arts telepath that beat Wolverine and Taskmaster. I’m sure she’s going to have as much of a difficulty at reading Danny as she has with her other skilled opponents like you have shown, Richard Dragon and Connor Hawke. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
3. Because there’s no narration or context throughout that fight, I won’t argue with you how Drakon took out the Arrow family. If he purely blitzed them with speed only or if he was just not fast but also skilled and a combination of the two displayed that. The reason I say this is because the scans I showed of Danny’s speed actually narrates and expresses that Danny moved at speeds where humans only saw as a blur when he fought Davos. Danny took out multiple guards before they even knew he initiated his attack. Another scan I have is of Danny taking out 6 thugs holding guns that were all 2 or 3 feet apart from each other in a single heartbeat. This is not to say that these thugs are of any importance but the narration expresses a quantifiable feat for us to understand what happened. It gives a clearer context to the feat.
4. You said so yourself that she could or would have lost to Richard Dragon if it wasn’t for her followers interfering. Although she did come out on top, the interference takes away how she beat Richard Dragon. I don’t see how she even got the worst of it, she got popped in the nose real hard and was about to succumb to Richard Dragon’s blow. Because she didn’t, was able to get her wind back thanks to the interference, she was able to deliver the Leopard blow.
5. A lot of those Cassandra Cain striking feats are impressive. I don’t want to sound like I’m downplaying them when I compare them to Danny’s, but some of the scans you show are of a aftermath which we have no knowledge of what happened during:
I don’t think they are as impressive as Danny hitting Davos and then Davos into pavement and causing all this area damage. For one, Danny hit Davos first, that means only half the remaining impacting force of Davos hitting the concrete caused that meaning Danny’s strike was much greater and would have caused more damage:
or karate chopping not just a power line but that giant monster.
But your point is fair. Those are all strikes that could easily break human ribs and bones and Lady Shiva was capable of dealing with them in all of their fights with her skills.
I’m still going with Danny. He’s just as skilled as Lady Shiva is. He defeated Davos while he was amped on chi. Davos is someone that is on par with Shang Chi. He overcame Mister X martial arts telepath’s ability to read him, someone that has great showings against Wolverine, Taskmaster and Deadpool. He easily took down the Cat, who also rivals Shang Chi in fighting and the Cat has humiliated Deadpool before. He’s taken on Sabretooth 3 times at a disadvantage in all of those encounters; the last time was a Sabretooth who had his healing factor and skill level established against the likes of Wolverine and Lady Deathstrike. Striking wise, he doesn’t need something fancy like the Leopard blow; all his strikes I have shown are enough to kill Lady Shiva. He’s more durable than Lady Shiva, he’s been blown from a mountain 100s of feet into a mountain, taken multiple hits from Fat Cobra, Had his head bashed into brick walls that had more bricks layered behind them by Sabretooth. The quickest way Lady Shiva can defeat Danny is a Leopard blow while Danny doesn’t need such a special technique, all his strikes are as powerful as the leopard blow or is arguably more powerful. Speed and reflexes, he’s done just as much as Lady Shiva has and more by slapping bullet like projectiles out of midair.
Even if someone were to argue that Lady Shiva is more skilled, the gap wouldn’t be wide enough to make up for all the physicals Danny has over here in striking, strength, speed and durability. Those are a lot of stats she would have to overcome with such a small gap in skill.
@slimj87d: Concerning the richard dragon fight thats from chuck dixons mini. I haven't read it but I recall saren giving reasons why its not canon in another thread.
1. Am I not supposed to reply to you to clear up any miscommunications we may be having? My point was that you underrate Sabretooth, he’s not as skill defecent as someone like killer croc. Sure Danny is more skilled than he is, but the context was that Danny had already gone through other battles, was exhausted and sick himself and beat Sabretooth who has a gap in skill compared to Killer Croc. There’s no analogy when you compare Lady Shiva’s showing with killer croc with Danny’s showing against Sabretooth, even with the whole comparison of skill gaps you try to present, it doesn’t compare when you have Lady Shiva doing a cheap shot to Danny not having such an advantage over Sabretooth and actually coming in with a disadvantage himself. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
2. Connor Hawke is definitely good in skill, there’s no doubt about that when you have someone like Batman and Nightwing say so themselves. But does Connor Hawke have feats like Danny? Is he physically as fast, strong, durable and has the striking power on par with Danny? I believe he doesn’t, and that’s why Lady Shiva can’t’ defeat Danny like she did Connor Hawke. Danny has a martial arts style that Lady Shiva has never seen before and your whole argument was that she can easily read his body when he has overcome a martial arts telepath that beat Wolverine and Taskmaster. I’m sure she’s going to have as much of a difficulty at reading Danny as she has with her other skilled opponents like you have shown, Richard Dragon and Connor Hawke. We’ll just have to agree to disagree.
3. Because there’s no narration or context throughout that fight, I won’t argue with you how Drakon took out the Arrow family. If he purely blitzed them with speed only or if he was just not fast but also skilled and a combination of the two displayed that. The reason I say this is because the scans I showed of Danny’s speed actually narrates and expresses that Danny moved at speeds where humans only saw as a blur when he fought Davos. Danny took out multiple guards before they even knew he initiated his attack. Another scan I have is of Danny taking out 6 thugs holding guns that were all 2 or 3 feet apart from each other in a single heartbeat. This is not to say that these thugs are of any importance but the narration expresses a quantifiable feat for us to understand what happened. It gives a clearer context to the feat.
4. You said so yourself that she could or would have lost to Richard Dragon if it wasn’t for her followers interfering. Although she did come out on top, the interference takes away how she beat Richard Dragon. I don’t see how she even got the worst of it, she got popped in the nose real hard and was about to succumb to Richard Dragon’s blow. Because she didn’t, was able to get her wind back thanks to the interference, she was able to deliver the Leopard blow.
5. A lot of those Cassandra Cain striking feats are impressive. I don’t want to sound like I’m downplaying them when I compare them to Danny’s, but some of the scans you show are of a aftermath which we have no knowledge of what happened during:
I don’t think they are as impressive as Danny hitting Davos and then Davos into pavement and causing all this area damage. For one, Danny hit Davos first, that means only half the remaining impacting force of Davos hitting the concrete caused that meaning Danny’s strike was much greater and would have caused more damage:
or karate chopping not just a power line but that giant monster.
But your point is fair. Those are all strikes that could easily break human ribs and bones and Lady Shiva was capable of dealing with them in all of their fights with her skills.
I’m still going with Danny. He’s just as skilled as Lady Shiva is. He defeated Davos while he was amped on chi. Davos is someone that is on par with Shang Chi. He overcame Mister X martial arts telepath’s ability to read him, someone that has great showings against Wolverine, Taskmaster and Deadpool. He easily took down the Cat, who also rivals Shang Chi in fighting and the Cat has humiliated Deadpool before. He’s taken on Sabretooth 3 times at a disadvantage in all of those encounters; the last time was a Sabretooth who had his healing factor and skill level established against the likes of Wolverine and Lady Deathstrike. Striking wise, he doesn’t need something fancy like the Leopard blow; all his strikes I have shown are enough to kill Lady Shiva. He’s more durable than Lady Shiva, he’s been blown from a mountain 100s of feet into a mountain, taken multiple hits from Fat Cobra, Had his head bashed into brick walls that had more bricks layered behind them by Sabretooth. The quickest way Lady Shiva can defeat Danny is a Leopard blow while Danny doesn’t need such a special technique, all his strikes are as powerful as the leopard blow or is arguably more powerful. Speed and reflexes, he’s done just as much as Lady Shiva has and more by slapping bullet like projectiles out of midair.
Even if someone were to argue that Lady Shiva is more skilled, the gap wouldn’t be wide enough to make up for all the physicals Danny has over here in striking, strength, speed and durability. Those are a lot of stats she would have to overcome with such a small gap in skill.
And I’ll agree to disagree otherwise.
1) Sorry if i sounded rude early, or something, but i get really annoyed when i'm on a debate, and i note that the person who's debating with me, either doesn't read or skips the main points of my arguments...it makes me feel like i'm wasting my time...
Anyway, i never said that Sabertooth isn't skilled, all i said, is that during his fights against Iron Fist, Danny stated that he only relies on raw strengh, and that he has no martial arts skill...so, regardless of his actual level of skill, if he didn't used skill against Danny, then, for all invents and purposes, Danny defeated someone with no skill...has for the Killer Croc vs Shiva fight, yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree...to me, she out-skilled him, to the point of humilliation, but whatever...it's doesn't matter anyway, because in skill: Lady Shiva and Danny >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Killers Croc and Sabertooth, their not good exemples, and i only provided one of them, to help explain, why the other is a bad exemple.
2) I've debated this many times, in Cassandra Cain vs Mister-X threads...Mister-X precog is different from Cassandra's or Lady Shiva's...it's not about which one is better, but rather, what they are about...one reads minds, the other reads bodies...we can't really compare, because they are so different...so, just because Danny was able to overcome one, that doesn't mean, he would overcome the other...as for Taskmaster, he has the Copy Move Abillity, Connor Hawke has that too, and so has Cassandra, and Shiva holded her own just fine, against them, and she beat Connor Hawke.
3) I understand what you're saying, and you're right, Drakon is not all about speed, he's also very skilled, though speed is his main asset.
Anyway, like i said before, Cass has equal, if not better speed feats than Danny, and Shiva holded her own against her, in combat many times.
4) Even if Lady Shiva managed to dodge Richard Dragon's blow, Dragon would always be on a better position to win the fight, there's no way to get around that...all i'm saying is that she did beat fair and square...i mean, she didn't got any advantage with the interference...they started fighting in equal terms...then they got stopped...then Shiva killed her own ninjas, and then they restarted the fight...which Lady Shiva won in the end...if anything, one could argue, that Lady Shiva got tired from fighting and killing her own ninjas, while Richard Dragon just stood there, watching.
5) I don't understand what you mean, they are not meant to be skill feats, hence why i didn't posted the whole thing for each...(besides that being alot of scans, and thus taking alot of time)...all you need to know, is her stricking power which is all in there, though, for some reason, some scans are out of order...maybe that's why you don't understand...if you want, i can repost each of them "by segment".
Cass oneshotted a sky-scrapper telepathic monster, that was smacking around Superboy...so, that tops beating a Dragon, in my book.
6) I don't think Lady Shiva is skilled to the point, of making Danny look like roockie or something...but i do think she's more skilled...also, i don't agree with Danny having any stats advantage over her, unless we're talking about Danny with his Chi, here, which is pretty much meta-human...like i said, Shiva has consistently holded her own against people who has performed similar feats to the ones of Danny...Lady Shiva herself has dodged bullets at point blank range.
@bat_girl_cc: I understand the frustration. I believe miscommunication happened on both of our parts. I can totally where you are coming from and I can see how someone could come to the conclusion that lady shiva can take a majority over Danny with your arguments as Jashro44 is torn apart between both combatants and many others here.
So we don't repeat ourselves, we'll just have to agree to disagree and see what others have to say or add in.
Right now Danny has lost his abilities again and has had his hands broken in his series, we'll see how his non chi feats go there and if they are impressive I will share them with you here if you would like.
Thank you for your time, patience and sharing your insight on Cassandra Cain, Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon.
P. S. Is what Jashro44 said is true? Is the Richard dragon vs lady shiva fight not canon?
It doesn't matter if the dragon fight is non cannon,, Sandra is as skilled as Dragon,,, could beat him anytime... She isn't more skilled than danny tho which is the point...
The body reading thing is cool and could be used if Sandra never gets hit ever,,, but she does.... I know bat_girl doesn't like the argument of Danny using a style in which will use the body reading against her but that's exactly what happens.... Even if that didn't work,,, Danny is fast enough to hit her without it... Danny is faster than huntress, nightwing, connor hawke,, and bruce whom have all hit Sandra...
And Sabertooth is actually very skilled in combat,,, way more skilled than croc but your point about be outclassed in the skill department by danny is valid,,, That's more of a power showing than anything...
Davos with the iron fist would wipe the floor with shiva, and danny beat him without chi,,, He has beaten Shang chi without chi and Shang would do very well against shiva if not beat her....So the skill is there....
@bat_girl_cc: I understand the frustration. I believe miscommunication happened on both of our parts. I can totally where you are coming from and I can see how someone could come to the conclusion that lady shiva can take a majority over Danny with your arguments as Jashro44 is torn apart between both combatants and many others here.
So we don't repeat ourselves, we'll just have to agree to disagree and see what others have to say or add in.
Right now Danny has lost his abilities again and has had his hands broken in his series, we'll see how his non chi feats go there and if they are impressive I will share them with you here if you would like.
Thank you for your time, patience and sharing your insight on Cassandra Cain, Lady Shiva and Richard Dragon.
P. S. Is what Jashro44 said is true? Is the Richard dragon vs lady shiva fight not canon?
Agreed, no problem.
Well, i've seen many arguments being made both in favor of still being cannon, and others against it...i think it should be considered cannon, the same way many Pre-Flashpoint stuff is still considered cannon...it happened in continuity didn't?...so unless stated otherwise by DC, as far, as i'm concern, it's cannon.
@bat_girl_cc: from my research, it has a lot of continuity errors with the past and this made it questionably canon. When the author was interviewed about the continuity issues, he openly admitted that he didn't know about the character that well and didn't research him enough. Then came geoff Johns writing that had continuity that aligned with Richard Dragon's original background and ignored the mini series.
This is what I have gathered from my research, I personally don't know what to beli.
- I alreay adressed most of your points, i'm not going to be here repeating myself forever...
I already showed away i think that Lady Shiva is more skilled than Danny, if you agree, or not, that's up to you, though, the evidence is there, and it's quite clear...
Danny stated that Sabertooth was only using raw streng against him, and that he has no martial arts skill...so, regardless of his actual level of skill, the fact is, Danny defeated someone who either doesn't have, or at least wasn't showing/using any skill...so, the feat itself it's irrelevant, in skill vs skill, debate.
- Huntress and Nightwing tagging Sandra is WIS...Lady Shiva has defeated TOP Tier martial artist's that are way above them in skill, and that could oneshot either Nightwing or Huntress easly...she's also a bullet timer...she has consistently holded her own against her daughter Cassandra Cain, who's feats completely dwarf the ones that Huntress and Nightwing have performed...Cass has also humilliated Nightwing twice, plus, she also oneshotted him through a Wall, once...and Huntress isn't even in the top 100 in skill in DC...and Danny without his Chi has no feats to put him above Bruce, also Bruce stated that Connor Hawke is the second nbest fighter in the world just below Shiva...so no, Danny has not better chances of tagging Shiva, than Bruce and Connor would have.
- I've already said it before, but i'm going to say it again, mentioning that Danny has defeated another Iron Fist, while only using his skill, is a bad move for a Iron Fist supporter...because, it makes me think that Lady Shiva can beat Iron Fist with or without chi.
@bat_girl_cc: from my research, it has a lot of continuity errors with the past and this made it questionably canon. When the author was interviewed about the continuity issues, he openly admitted that he didn't know about the character that well and didn't research him enough. Then came geoff Johns writing that had continuity that aligned with Richard Dragon's original background and ignored the mini series.
This is what I have gathered from my research, I personally don't know what to beli.
Yes, but that always happens, to almost every character...writters that don't know the characters well, or that just writte them horribly...and no-one complains about being cannon or not...just in the new 52, you have Wonder Woman and Justice League, which looks like 2 completely different Dianas...like 2 different dimensions, in the way the charcater is portrayed...so is one of them non-canon?...personally, i think people just have this weird need of dismissing Richard Dragon's feats...for some reason.
I agree that huntress and nightwing should not be able to touch her,,, They aren't even close to her,,, but again danny is... He is past Richard dragon, connor hawke,,slade, and bruce in skill, so he could hit her even if he can't use the drunken style to confuse her...
- I've already said it before, but i'm going to say it again, mentioning that Danny has defeated another Iron Fist, while only using his skill, is a bad move for a Iron Fist supporter...because, it makes me think that Lady Shiva can beat Iron Fist with or without chi.
I love Iron Fist and I think without chi (personal or Shou Lao) Shiva takes a slight majority but let's not get ridiculous.
I agree that huntress and nightwing should not be able to touch her,,, They aren't even close to her,,, but again danny is... He is past Richard dragon, connor hawke,,slade, and bruce in skill, so he could hit her even if he can't use the drunken style to confuse her...
Even if he hits her, then, what?...Lady Shiva has tanked hits from Batman, who has stricking power feats, such as punching through Bazuka proof glass, destroying Mister Freeze's visor, etc...she has tanked hits from Cassandra Cain, who has stricking power feats, such as opening huge holes on large brick Walls, punching through 3-inch-quartz, etc.
Iron Fist would oneshot her, if he landed one hit on her, while using his Chi, if not, no he can't.
- I've already said it before, but i'm going to say it again, mentioning that Danny has defeated another Iron Fist, while only using his skill, is a bad move for a Iron Fist supporter...because, it makes me think that Lady Shiva can beat Iron Fist with or without chi.
I love Iron Fist and I think without chi (personal or Shou Lao) Shiva takes a slight majority but let's not get ridiculous.
Of course that i don't think that Shiva would beat Davos...i'm just saying, that if we are up to belive that Danny can, while only using skill, then Shiva could too, since she's even more skilled.
- I've already said it before, but i'm going to say it again, mentioning that Danny has defeated another Iron Fist, while only using his skill, is a bad move for a Iron Fist supporter...because, it makes me think that Lady Shiva can beat Iron Fist with or without chi.
I love Iron Fist and I think without chi (personal or Shou Lao) Shiva takes a slight majority but let's not get ridiculous.
Of course that i don't think that Shiva would beat Davos...i'm just saying, that if we are up to belive that Danny can, while only using skill, then Shiva could too, since she's even more skilled.
While taking down an Iron Fist is a great show of skill I personally don't think it's the only reason Danny won there. If Davos had used the chi the way we've seen Danny use it, Danny would've been wrecked for starters so I don't think you can just say because Danny can beat Davos Iron First with no chi and skill alone Shiva can do the same to Danny.
- I've already said it before, but i'm going to say it again, mentioning that Danny has defeated another Iron Fist, while only using his skill, is a bad move for a Iron Fist supporter...because, it makes me think that Lady Shiva can beat Iron Fist with or without chi.
I love Iron Fist and I think without chi (personal or Shou Lao) Shiva takes a slight majority but let's not get ridiculous.
Of course that i don't think that Shiva would beat Davos...i'm just saying, that if we are up to belive that Danny can, while only using skill, then Shiva could too, since she's even more skilled.
While taking down an Iron Fist is a great show of skill I personally don't think it's the only reason Danny won there. If Davos had used the chi the way we've seen Danny use it, Danny would've been wrecked for starters so I don't think you can just say because Danny can beat Davos Iron First with no chi and skill alone Shiva can do the same to Danny.
Fair Enough.
" While taking down an Iron Fist is a great show of skill I personally don't think it's the only reason Danny won there. If Davos had used the chi the way we've seen Danny use it, Danny would've been wrecked for starters "
That is yet, another reason, why it's pointless to bring that up!...people have said it, a few times now, but since i'm not a Marvel reader, though, i like to keep myself updated about what happens on the Marvel Universe, i didn't read that issue, nor did i saw the scans, so thanks for providing context.
But that's where you and I differ,,, she isn't more skilled than danny... at best she is as skilled as him.. He is faster than Bruce and just as much punching power. With his normal chi he is amazing,, but with shou lao he is ridiculus.... ... And Davos having the iron fist and not knowing how to use it as well as Danny is not relevant because Davos without the Iron fist is still very skilled and him having the iron fist just made him that much more powerful and that much faster.... The iron fist doesn't improve skill,, Speed, healing, and power yeah but not skill...(well you know what I mean technique)
But that's where you and I differ,,, she isn't more skilled than danny... at best she is as skilled as him.. He is faster than Bruce and just as much punching power. With his normal chi he is amazing,, but with shou lao he is ridiculus.... ... And Davos having the iron fist and not knowing how to use it as well as Danny is not relevant because Davos without the Iron fist is still very skilled and him having the iron fist just made him that much more powerful and that much faster.... The iron fist doesn't improve skill,, Speed, healing, and power yeah but not skill...(well you know what I mean technique)
Yeah, she is, and i've already said why i think so...just read through the thread.
Some Iron Fist supporter's have argued that quantity =/= quality...and even though some times, that rule does indeed apply, the thing is, it's kind of a weak counter, for the fact, that Lady Shiva has more training, she has also mastered more different martials arts styles, and she has better skill feats...in skill: Lady Shiva > Danny, IMO, i'm not saying that Danny can't contend with her, but she's more skilled than him, and she can also read bodies, which should nulifie Danny's Druken style.
She hasn't had more training.. Time isn't the same on K'un-Lun... He has trained in a mystical martial arts that incorporates all Martial Arts,,, so he actually knows everything she knows and more... but thanks for the debate... so I recognize I won't be able to change your mind but still this is what makes this stuff fun to talk about..
She hasn't had more training.. Time isn't the same on K'un-Lun... He has trained in a mystical martial arts that incorporates all Martial Arts,,, so he actually knows everything she knows and more... but thanks for the debate... so I recognize I won't be able to change your mind but still this is what makes this stuff fun to talk about..
" She hasn't had more training.. Time isn't the same on K'un-Lun... "
Lady Shiva has trainned pretty much, all of her life.
" He has trained in a mystical martial arts that incorporates all Martial Arts,,, so he actually knows everything she knows and more... "
Has that actually been stated? or you're just assuming that it's like that?...scans?...
Also, there's no way, that he can know more than she knows, since she knows everything:
At best, he can know has much, which i doubt he does.
" but thanks for the debate... so I recognize I won't be able to change your mind but still this is what makes this stuff fun to talk about... "
You're welcome ;)
No, you won't...because you haven't convinced me that Danny is more skilled...though, given Lady Shiva's skill set, that's kinda of impossible...
Log in to comment