@wyldsong: people also get confused when his hands glow and think he is using chi any time that happens. They don't understand that is how the character is drawn and his hands glow even when he has no chi abilities at all. Danny was my favorite for about a ten year stretch.
He may have heard of all of them, but I've never seen him manipulate shadow energy by using that fighting style...hence, he hasn't mastered every fighting discipline on his DC Earth if that scan is to be believed...
Good find. From John Layman's run on Detective Comics, if I'm not mistaken (issue 21, 2013). I think you're grasping at straws a little bit with this one, to be honest. It certainly doesn't "flat out prove" anything. As far as we know, it could have simply been the manipulation of shadow energy that Bruce had only heard whispers about. He actually knew the fighting style pretty much instantaneously (which he even states as being a Southeast Asian fighting style), and that could just as well indicate that he had already mastered it, even though he had never seen shadow manipulation used alongside of it before.
Still, I'll grant to you that it could be considered a variation on a style, and thus a sub-style that Bruce had not seen until that point. In any event, the takeaway from that text is kind of ambiguous, and I'm personally not willing to toss away what has generally been accepted as canon from as early as the 1970's (the earliest recorded instance that I know of is Detective Comics #411) that Batman is a master of all styles. I'm definitely not going to concede that based on a single statement by Layman; a guy who, for all we know, wasn't the most well-studied in Batman lore when he first started penning anything Batman related for DC back in 2012.
That being said, I went through what many consider some of Batman's best feats. I can't say I saw anything that would put him over Danny, and Bruce it seems has touched on some of the more spiritual stuff, but obviously hasn't gone all in like Danny. Bruce and Danny have some very comparable feats (minus the fully chi charged Danny feats), and while I would still back Danny for the slight majority, I will say I find it to be closer than I initially thought.
Batman is pretty beastly in hand to hand, I'll give him that, I just don't see where he has taken his martial arts to the levels Danny has.
Fair enough! :)
It has been a pleasure discussing this with you guys. I just wish my other post would have gone through. I think it might have swayed you a bit more. No worries though. This is all hypothetical stuff anyway.
@omnicrono: So, before I get into this, I am just going to make a last statement, and then go back to my old rule or when I see someone state "no chi for Danny", then I will not participate. I was in an odd mood when I broke that rule yesterday, and now that I have slept, I am finding this thread pointless overall, though I do thank you for providing some discussion.
Good find. From John Layman's run on Detective Comics, if I'm not mistaken (issue 21, 2013). I think you're grasping at straws a little bit with this one, to be honest. It certainly doesn't "flat out prove" anything. As far as we know, it could have simply been the manipulation of shadow energy that Bruce had only heard whispers about. He actually knew the fighting style pretty much instantaneously (which he even states as being a Southeast Asian fighting style), which could just as well indicate that he had already mastered it, even though he had never seen shadow manipulation alongside of it before.
He knew of the style, barely, had to think about it, and didn't even come up with the name of the style. It is something he states he has only heard whispers of...meaning he has only heard about it, and never trained in it. Had he trained in it, I am pretty sure his thought process would have been different, instead of placing the fighting style as something he had only heard whispers of.
Still, I'll grant to you that it could be considered a variation on a style, and thus a sub-style that Bruce had not seen until that point. In any event, it's kind of an ambiguous couple of statements, and I'm personally not willing to toss away what has generally been accepted as canon from as early as the 1970's (the earliest recorded instance that I know of is Detective Comics #411) that Batman is a master of all styles. Not based on a single statement by Layman; a guy who, for all we know, wasn't the most well-studied in Batman lore when he first started penning anything Batman related for DC back in 2012.
Can't say that I agree it is accepted canon when I can dig up sources to the contrary and can pull a specific art he has only heard whispers of.
Anyhow, this is not meant as an insult my friend, but I am done with this thread. I'll let the rest of you argue it out, but I think you can understand why I find the setup silly overall, since I have been complaining about it for last few posts=)
"Can't say that I agree it is accepted canon when I can dig up sources to the contrary and can pull a specific art he has only heard whispers of."
In truth, with the exception of that statement from Detective Comics #21 regarding shadow manipulation, I still don't see how anything you showed flat out contradicts the "master of all styles" statements (the accepted canon, generally speaking), which there are also more of than the 1-2 statements that might seem to be to the contrary. I went into that in quite some detail in my lengthy post that failed to go through, but I'm not going attempt to rehash it. Seems we've both had enough with this debate anyway. And that's fine. At the end of the day, we can agree to disagree.
@wyldsong: What are Danny's best feats WITHOUT chi?
That's the pain to actually figure out, since due to his training, it is kind of part and parcel of what he does. Let's see, around peak human without chi (with chi he currently can amp to superhuman levels), heightened senses to the point of being able to hear people sweat, extensive blind fighting training (beat Sabertooth while blind), can fight while in deep meditation (had to fight demonic hordes while in deep meditation to help open an otherworldly portal), can enter deathlike states and so on through meditation (once meditated for 3 days and can lower body temp), tank a chi enhanced punch that knocked him through six floors and got back up, can roll with punches, pressure point proficiency, knows martial arts styles to keep telepaths from reading his moves, back when he needed chi to hit peak human speeds he kept up with and beat someone who was faster than Spidey with pure skill when his chi was drained (an enhanced Davos), can sense invisible foes/objects by feeling movements on air currents, has complete control of his nervous system (once deadened the pain caused by corrosive acid dumped on him and having to deal with poisonous gasses), timed a blitz teleport attack from Nightcrawler and smacked him down, has been able fool Spidey's spider-sense before, bullet reaction/dodging, and if I dug around I could come up with some more.
Honestly though as I have said before, I find it pointless to actually debate Danny without chi. Like someone said earlier, no one would think of denying Shang his chi in combat, and the only reason Danny ever gets denied his, is that most don't know he has mastered personal chi, and then had to earn the chi of Shou Lao, and they confuse the two sources of chi thinking they are one in the same...
Bruce trained to learn martial arts under each category from the greatest most prominent fighters inin DC for approximately 15 years as stated in comics numerous times. This means that his training was not overseen from DCs true greatest martial artists aside from lady Shiva who only taught him enough to get his old fighting instincts back. Danny was trained in a remote environment by martial artists confirmed to be the greatest h2h combatants in the marvel universe practically from birth. He lived and breathed martial arts every day of his existence and learned techniques that allowed him to attain superhuman skills like the ironfist which is something batman has not and CANNOT do. Seriously some of you guys are too hard for batman, my favorite DC hero btw. Even with my biased outlook towards the knight Danny wins this fight 8/10 times, there's no denying it. In h2h strictly ironfist beats Bruce hands down pun intended. Richard dragon vs Danny would be a more logical choice for this scenario
Personally...I feel if Iron Fist is fighting w/o chi in H2H only, Batman should fight w/o his armor. In which case, although Bruce is VERY well trained, I don't think his bones could sustain IFs attacks on block. I'm going w/ Iron Fist 10/10
@newecho: Batman has mastered every martial art there is abd perfected 127. He has quite explicitly inferred in his quest that he always drew the line at killing (when taught by Lady Shiva, Henri Ducard, and the Queen) at dedicatinG his life (Kirigi who could've made him immortal but at the very least enhanced his learning abilities to learning a year in a moment) and adopting mysticism (Penumbra). Batman considers abilities such as those unnatural and not worth having if they can be taken away.
@marvelz0mbie: The only thing that we have that says Bruce mastered 127 styles is the discussion he gave to cass. It's not a consistent thing nor does that make him more skilled than Danny.
The following are fivE references published by DC. In return I will require five examples stating Iron Fist is the Master of all forms of Martial Arts.
Batman has MASTERED all 127 major forms. (Batman The Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight)
He is not just Adept, not only Mastered but Perfected all forms. (The Ultimate Guide to the Justice League of America)
He's trained to perfection in every combat form there is plus how he can incapacitate a person in 463 different ways without drawing blood (Batman The Widening Gyre #4)
Is said to be the most highly skilled fighter in the world, possibly the greatest human fighter the world has ever known, and a master of every combat form there is (Batman Secret Files & Origins #1)
Batman is also a Master of All forms of Physical Combat (Who's Who Vol. 1 #2 April 1985)
@marvelz0mbie: ok you gave things that don't help your case considering they differ. The 127 thing in a guide that isn't tied to a real story other than when he hands the disk to cass. You also gave an opinion piece from batman secret files and origin for some reason?
I can show you instances where bats doesn't know styles so that supersedes him being a master of all styles. I also never said Danny has mastered all styles but kun lun incorporates all earthly styles and mystical ones. Danny's case has been made well in this thread..
@newecho: Danny has no case in this thread. It is your opinion Kun Lun encorpirates all styles.
Secret Files, the Widening Gyre and Who's Who are actual comic format. The rest are freaking DC Encyclopedia. Discounting that is like discounting Marvel Universe Handbook. Like your really picing and choosing what should be accepted when you can barely produce any references whatsoever.
The only example you can give of Batman not knowing a style is when he fought Penumbra. Batman was familiar but hadn't pursued her style because it depended on mysticism. The Iron Fist is mysticism. The Shroud's teachings were mysticism. Deadman is affiliated with mysticism (I'm aware he isn't a martial artist). I-Ching and the Sensei have adopted mysticism.
Batman will not submit to an ideology (Ra's Al Ghul), murder (for Shiva, the Queen or Henri DuCard) or adopt mysticism(Penumbra abd when he trained in Nanda Parabat with the Question). At that point it's no longer martial arts but magic and super powers and he won't adopt any ability that can be taken from him, relying solely on what he is capable of.
Anyhow I just gave five DC publications that are directly meant to be source material for Batman confirming he knows all martial arts. I'm ready for you to admit your wrong any time you want and I'm still waiting on you to counter with some proof that Kun Lun encorporates all fighting forms. But all I've gotten so far is your opinion.
@marvelz0mbie: go back and read through the thread. The case has been made a dozen times.
You didn't actually make a case and it's about consistency and on panel when dealing with comic characters. That's why the 127 thing is only applicable when it comes to the disc he gave cass. It's never mentioned on panel again.
The Matt fraction run on iron fist tells you that kun lun incorporates all real world and mystical techniques.
@newecho: @newecho: I've read through this thread. Quite literally no cases have been made. No references. You probably can't tell me what Matt Fraction issue number that was that stated Kun Lun encorporates all fighting arts. Probably don't have a scan. I can reference comic after comic. Source material after source material and you'd refute it without any rebuttal. It's laughable.
Batman knowing all martial arts is referenced constantly. I can back it up all night and you'd rebute with nothing. Nothing.
Tsunemoto the greatest assassin of the Yakuza who taught him the healing ability (to staunch a bullet wound) taught him how to live and learn a year of experience and knowledge in a second. (Detective Comics #599)
Can unconsciously slow or Staunch his bleeding (bullet wound) through force of will due to training with Sufi masters (Detective Comics #776)
Kirigi explains him to be genetically perfect and to have a learning ability before he's even twenty. ( Secret Origins of the World's Greatest Super Heroes )
He and Dragon Learned the secret arts of Taoism and the move "Tiger Fist" from H'sein-Tan (Legends of the Dark Knight #53)
Can turn his hand into a 'knife' like that of tempered steel against the Seventh, a master of Akido(Batman: Legends of the Dark Knight #62 and Robin v2 #8)
Master Haim's "Hungry Cobra Deathstrike"
Batman is one of the 7 people in the world who know how to use and defend against it by focusing "Chi" like Iron Fist and Captain America. (Legends of the Dark Knight #129-131)
Richard Dragon, Lady Shiva and Batman, know the most powerful martial arts move, the The Leopard blow, it can kill almost instantly. (Batman #509)
Kirigi taught Bruce the Lethal Vibrating Palm technique which Bruce modified to knock out (Batman #431)
The chest pentration technique that makes the same mark and damage to the victim's chest as an axe. Only 4 people in the world know, one being Batman (Detective Comics #634)
Batman not only knows Dan Kingdom / the Enforcer's Leopard Paw Knuckle technique but also knows how to block and counter it. Can withstand the Leopard Paw Knuckle Strike of Dan Kingdom. Dan Kingdom, Batman and Paul Kirk were all trained by Asano Nitobe (Detective Comics #443)
Defends against The Sensei's spine crusher iron fist technique from behind by trapping him with "The Gymnast's Third Hand" technique. Therefore knows the Spine Crusher technique.
(Batman Odyssey v2 #7)
Batman can put himself into a ninja trance that increases his adrenaline and strength while negating his pain receptors
Batman: Legends Of The Dark Knight 18
(1991)
In the Orient learned how to bring his brainwaves to the Theta State : Perfectly relaxed yet awake
Batman: Legends Of The Dark Knight 16 (1991)
He and Dragon Learned the secret arts of Taoism from H'sein-Tan and can enter a mental plane in combat once their eyes lock and the battle plays out in their minds at the sametime. The one person observing the fight believed that Batman made Dragon kill himself by simply looking at him unaware of the fight that truly took place (Legends of the Dark Knight #53)
After training 9 months "somewhere in the Himalayas" with Shihan Matsusa, known to be one of the greatest zen warrior monks, he is able to master Tummo meditation ("elemental battle between ice and blood" that takes place while he is meditating nearly naked outside), actually melting the ice he is sitting on (Detective Comics v2 #0)
David Cain invented and taught Batman a unique fighting style that involves the perfect reading of body language by using a modified deadly nerve strike to paralyze Cassandra Cain. (Detective Comics #734)
Chu Chun Li taught him "the Way" a supernatural and ultimate form of Kung Fu deemed Bruce as his favorite student . (Detective Comics #599)
He and Richard Dragon have stalemated in Ju-Jitsu, Karate and American Boxing
(Brave and the Bold #132)
Like Karate Kid knows Kalaripayattu
Superior than Elliot Caldwell in Akido and Tan Tui, Wing Chun, Wushu and Capoeira
Dim Mak, Mauy Thai, Krav Maga... (Batman Confidential #14)
Recognises Penumbra's fighting style, where originated from and that she's using the manipulation of shadow energy that originates from a seemingly secret mystic discipline in India that very few people even know about (Detective Comics v2 #21). Similar to the Shade or the Shroud who Traveled to Nepal and studied martial arts with the cult of Kali or mystic arts from Nanda Parabat
Batman, Paul Kirk, Suicide King and Freeway mastered Asano Nitobe's (agruably the most legendary ninjitsu master in world) fighting style (Batman Family #1).
Hong Kong Wushu (Detective Comics v2 #13)
Bruce refuses to learn due to his no kill code from:
DD and BP were rated as masters of only a few fighting styles, 5/7, but they have fought and defeated people with ratings of 6 and 7s. Come on now.
This. But it actually has been stated that Danny has mastered 'nearly' all martial art known, some of which Bruce would obviously be unfamiliar with on account of them being native to K'un L'un/developed by previous Iron Fists.
All that said, this battle is sort of flawed, because removing chi from Danny isn't really doable, even without the chi of Shou Lao, he still uses his own chi.
Despite already being barely able to stand, running on three hours of sleep, being near death and then getting beaten up by Davos and left to die in the freezing mountains of K'un-Lun, yet he is still able to kill four wolf scouts.
Then he gets mauled by many packs of wolves... yet he is still able to scale the K'un L'un mountains straight after this.
Straight after that he oneshots a huge wild cat with a nerve strike.
And straight after that he goes on to beat Steel Serpent, who is in possession of the Iron Fist, being strong enough to send him flying straight through a stone pillar.
All that is without the chi of Shou Lao and in the space of like, half a day IIRC.
To the best of my knowledge, we've never seen what Danny's physicals are completely devoid of Chi because it's not a power he possesses, but a skill he has honed.
@rogueshadow: yeah, without chi he's also beat Davos who she the iron fist and Davos was able to keep up with Spider-Man with skill alone, not saying Davis can beat Spider-Man.
I have a bunch of post in previous pages here I'm sure.
@rogueshadow: yeah, without chi he's also beat Davos who she the iron fist and Davos was able to keep up with Spider-Man with skill alone, not saying Davis can beat Spider-Man.
I have a bunch of post in previous pages here I'm sure.
Check page 6 for some.
That instance with Davos is what I was referring to above, and he was already messed up by the time they fought, but he still beat him. I meant the chi of Shou Lao/the Iron Fist, because even in such cases where he is without the Iron Fist, he still has his own chi.
@slimj87d: Captain America and Batman are familiar with Chi. Captain America can use chi in the way that real people use chi. Regarding manifesting energy manipulation like Iron Fist then no he can't.
Batman can use it to a borderline grey area which may or may not be extraordinary.
Master Haim's "Hungry Cobra Deathstrike"
Batman is one of the 7 people in the world who know how to use and defend against it by focusing "Chi" like Iron Fist and Captain America. (Legends of the Dark Knight #129-131)
The bat largely rejects these teachings, with a few exceptions like: protecting Wayne Manor and the cave from the occult and: stealth against Darkseid Superman Amazo Luthor Flash WW Jim Gordon.
@slimj87d: I would agree. But what Danny knows with manifesting energy manipulation is no longer martial arts. He knows martial arts too, just not near as much as Batman. Danny subjected himself to mysticism. And if Batman learned anything from Nanda Parabat (DC's Kun Lun) and rubbing shoulders with Penumbra and Richard Dragon that mysticism is a super power and a slippery slope and he rejects those teachings.
Batman gets the edge in martial arts ability
Iron Fist gets the edge in mysticism and energy manipulation
@marvelz0mbie: that's not true. Many people from Kun Lum learn how to use their chi to do things that Danny does through training and learning kun lun martial arts.
So it is due to their training in their art.
It sounds like you're going too out of the way her to deny this. You're in denial.
@slimj87d: Well just like everyone from Nanda Parabat isn't a better martial artist than Batman just because they smash boulders and have their souls leave their body, because its mysticism. The same can be said for Kun Lun. Those folks from Kun Lun at that point are learning mysticism not martial arts. Being a martial artist helped them use mysticism for sure. But Batman suspects learning mysticism comes with a catch. Dr. Tzin Tzin for example.
@marvelz0mbie: You're arguing that because Danny has mysticism he doesn't have martial arts which is just not true. The two are entirely unrelated and doing so is a fallacy.
@conner_wolf: I'm arguing that just because he has mysticism doesn't mean he is the best martial artist or knows many martial arts.
I'm arguing that martial arts and mysticism are related but not dependent on one's prowess with each. For instance you could be only a good Martial artist but be able to generate Kamehameha blasts. Or you could be a better martial artist and not be able to generate Kamehameha blasts. Because martial arts and mysticism are not the same thing.
And im arguing that Chi and mysticism and dark arts is something that many martial artist could possess but choose not to. Dr. Tzin Tzin, Iron Fist, the Shroud, Penumbra and likely Black Panther chose it. Batman, and Captain America did not.
@marvelz0mbie: that's not the point. I don't even th you read everything we were talking about earlier... You must have selective reading or read a sentence but didn't und the bigger picture. I'm just going to summarize for you and move on, I don't want to repeat myself.
Counter argument#1; People try to argue that "more Martial arts, more wins" when that's not true as BP, DD and MK are rated 5/7, 5/7 and 4/7 but they have beaten some of the best martial artists in marvel, like Wolverine who is like Batman and knows all martial art styles. Captain America beat a guy that was like prometh and downloaded every Martial arts into himself. So Batman knowing more Martial arts doesn't ensure anything when mastering and delivery of what you know is enough.
Counter argument #2; "Oh, but him knowing more Martial arts allows him to counter other martial artist!" Along with point #1 above which already proves this wrong, Danny learned Kun Lun martial arts, one that just doesn't focus on skill and techniques, but also how to summon and utilize ones chi to boost their physical abilities to superhuman levels. And that's ON TOP of all the other types of martial arts he learned and picked up, so even if that was a valid post Batman isn't familiar with Danny's. But point 1 already disproved this argument.
Wolverine likely has the most time spent training but has never been said to have Mastered All Martial Arts.
And guys like Captain America, and Wolverine don't win on their martial arts solely. Captain America doesn't produce fatigue poisons and has the Shield, Wolverine has Mutant powers and Adamantium claws, Iron Fist has Kun Lun mysticism, which compliments their Martial Arts.
Iron Fist lived in Kun Lun from childhood to adulthood and doesn't possess a worldly exposure to martial arts. Kun Lun arts likely have adopted many forms but is still one art.
The 'guy' Captain America beat was Cache. Do not soil Prometheus's legacy by comparing him to Cache.
Cache was sythetic computer with an artificial digitized humanoid body. His body was a durable yet somewhat normal body and wasn't as fast, strong or highly trained as Captain America. He was programmed with a knowledge of all fighting techniques it could find on the Internet. It wasn't a master of anything.
Even without his helmet, Prometheus is a very skilled combatant, proficient in several forms of hand-to-hand combat including Judo, Kickboxing, Boxing, Karate, Capoeira, Silat, Savate and possibly more.
He had been able to download a CD into his central nervous system that contains 30 of the World's Best Martial Arts Masters (similar to Taskmaster's photographic reflexes), one of them being Batman's fighting style. He was a Master's Master.
@marvelz0mbie: that's all stuff I've already talked about in this thread. Sorry, I've been participating in this thread since like page 1 or 2 and it's just redundant for me to rewrite the same stuff over and over again.
Connor wolf seems to have a different angle, maybe you can discuss new things with him.
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