Iron Fist ( no chi ) Vs Batman ( no gadgets )

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Erik said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

I know. It's inevitable.

Erik, you must ... yes... this is the only way ... you MUST ... fight Batman.

Only then, will you taste the power of his martial might. Only then, will you acquiesce to the power that is ... THE BATMAN!

Challenge accepted. I live in AZ, tell him to come taste his defeat.

Sorry chum. You're gonna haveta lose more marbles than ya have already, paint your face (or something else adequately villainous), then mosey on down to Gotham, rob a bank, or some such thang, for a shot at the title. AZ is, well, quite frankly, beneath the Dakr Knight's radar.

He could at least send me one of the desert themed guys from Batman Inc.

@entropy_aegis said:

@Erik said:

@Hohenheim_of_light: @HughJass:

Just as I suspected. Well before Crisis. 1971.

It's canon,it features the first encounter between Batman and the League of Assasins(Talia and Ebeneezer Daark).This and a majority of other Ra's al Ghul stories were recollected in the Tales of the Demon trade.

How can that be canon when it predates the Crisis by nearly two decades?

Iron Fist

@Cdogleroy said:

No gadgets? Iron fist.... In a veeeeeeeery close one.. Seemed k kid may have taken bats sparring and I have fist over kk.. Wrong?

I agree that Danny takes it but he's no where near Karate Kid's level. Karate Kid would beat Danny and Bruce in about 10 seconds if he really wanted to.

@Erik said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@Erik said:

@Hohenheim_of_light: @HughJass:

Just as I suspected. Well before Crisis. 1971.

It's canon,it features the first encounter between Batman and the League of Assasins(Talia and Ebeneezer Daark).This and a majority of other Ra's al Ghul stories were recollected in the Tales of the Demon trade.

How can that be canon when it predates the Crisis by nearly two decades?

Alot of stories get reintroduced into post crisis continuity, like the Starbreaker storyline in JLA.

@Erik said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@Erik said:

@Hohenheim_of_light: @HughJass:

Just as I suspected. Well before Crisis. 1971.

It's canon,it features the first encounter between Batman and the League of Assasins(Talia and Ebeneezer Daark).This and a majority of other Ra's al Ghul stories were recollected in the Tales of the Demon trade.

How can that be canon when it predates the Crisis by nearly two decades?

It was recollected Post-crisis along with other Ra's al Ghul stories,in Batman Last Rites we also saw a chained Batman trying to wrestle a shark.This was also a Pre-crisis story.

@entropy_aegis said:

@Erik said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@Erik said:

@Hohenheim_of_light: @HughJass:

Just as I suspected. Well before Crisis. 1971.

It's canon,it features the first encounter between Batman and the League of Assasins(Talia and Ebeneezer Daark).This and a majority of other Ra's al Ghul stories were recollected in the Tales of the Demon trade.

How can that be canon when it predates the Crisis by nearly two decades?

It was recollected Post-crisis along with other Ra's al Ghul stories,in Batman Last Rites we also saw a chained Batman trying to wrestle a shark.This was also a Pre-crisis story.

Alright. The scan is canon then. Batman is a master of all martial arts.

i just read 8 pages of erik and honenhiem arguing about what is and what is not canon and i still cannot tell which side they are on but any ways iron fist wins

@venomyak said:

i just read 8 pages of erik and honenhiem arguing about what is and what is not canon and i still cannot tell which side they are on but any ways iron fist wins

Well I've said it a few times but I'll say it again, I think that Danny would take it in a very very close fight.

@Hohenheim_of_light said:

@Erik said:

@Hohenheim_of_light said:

@Erik said:

@Hohenheim_of_light:

Batgirl V1 issue 07. Batman's lifetime of accumulated martial arts knowledge encompasses 127 martial arts styles.

As for the Wolverine scan. Well you got me. I was being lazy because I do not feel like going and finding the evidence for you. A handbook that happens to be right on that particular thing is just as good.

Are you talking about when he gave Batgirl that disc? He only stated that there was a lifetime worth of knowledge on that disc, not that it's his lifetime of knowledge. In the next scan it states that there are 127 major styles of combat, it sounds like he's saying that there are 127 major styles of combat total, so if he mastered all of those styles that would make him a master of all styles on the planet.

Right. A lifetime worth of knowledge on that disc. Either his or others. So you are either saying that he knows 127 different fighting styles or you are saying that he has yet to even catch up to that.

A lifetime of knowledge doesn't mean that it's all of Batman's martial arts knowledge on that disc. I'm stating that he said that there are 127 styles of combat total which really has nothing to do with the disc that he gave Batgirl.

So he has more than a lifetime of knowledge of martial arts? How many lifetimes of knowledge does he have then? Wouldn't a lifetime essentially all that a person knows?? You're making zero sense.

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Erik said:

@Hohenheim_of_light said:

@HughJass:I'm not sure how the Widening Gyre isn't canon either, I'm going to ask entropy and get back to you on that. As far as the Batgirl issue Batman states that there are 127 major styles of combat, so if he mastered 127 styles he would technically have mastered all styles since he's stating that that is the number of styles total, at least on Earth.

There are several hundred distinct martial arts styles. Not just 127.

With new styles developing every month ... or thereabouts.

If a black belt in, say, karate wishes to open his own school outside of his sensei's lineage, he needs to develop his own style. It's still karate, but with a 'twist'.

Crapola if you ask me. It's pandering to the flavor of the month's ego.

Approaches to training, emphasis, competition rules... All of these are legitimate reasons to define a style as 'new'.

Oh, and with no weapons, IF has this. Definitely.

@spiderbuck said:

@Hohenheim_of_light said:

@Erik said:

@Hohenheim_of_light said:

@Erik said:

@Hohenheim_of_light:

Batgirl V1 issue 07. Batman's lifetime of accumulated martial arts knowledge encompasses 127 martial arts styles.

As for the Wolverine scan. Well you got me. I was being lazy because I do not feel like going and finding the evidence for you. A handbook that happens to be right on that particular thing is just as good.

Are you talking about when he gave Batgirl that disc? He only stated that there was a lifetime worth of knowledge on that disc, not that it's his lifetime of knowledge. In the next scan it states that there are 127 major styles of combat, it sounds like he's saying that there are 127 major styles of combat total, so if he mastered all of those styles that would make him a master of all styles on the planet.

Right. A lifetime worth of knowledge on that disc. Either his or others. So you are either saying that he knows 127 different fighting styles or you are saying that he has yet to even catch up to that.

A lifetime of knowledge doesn't mean that it's all of Batman's martial arts knowledge on that disc. I'm stating that he said that there are 127 styles of combat total which really has nothing to do with the disc that he gave Batgirl.

So he has more than a lifetime of knowledge of martial arts? How many lifetimes of knowledge does he have then? Wouldn't a lifetime essentially all that a person knows?? You're making zero sense.

How about instead of the regular trolling you do and putting words in my mouth, you try paying attention to what's been said in the thread?

@spiderbuck said:

@Hohenheim_of_light said:

So he has more than a lifetime of knowledge of martial arts? How many lifetimes of knowledge does he have then? Wouldn't a lifetime essentially all that a person knows?? You're making zero sense.

Sorry i dont understand what you guys are debating about, because the number of styles you know doesnt mean much to be honest. Think it think way, Bruce Lee to be frankly honest is a master of 1 technique Jeen Kune Do, whereas Jackie Chan and Jet Lee know more than 52, are we saying Jet Lee or Jackie Chan beats Bruce Lee senseless since they know so many other styles???????

Besides Hohenheim_of_light did agree Batman loses, he also said Karate Kid wins, both of which are very legibal statement i cant understand what the topic is about.

Yes, Karate Kid > Iron First > Batman!

@Killemall said:

@spiderbuck said:

@Hohenheim_of_light said:

So he has more than a lifetime of knowledge of martial arts? How many lifetimes of knowledge does he have then? Wouldn't a lifetime essentially all that a person knows?? You're making zero sense.

Sorry i dont understand what you guys are debating about, because the number of styles you know doesnt mean much to be honest. Think it think way, Bruce Lee to be frankly honest is a master of 1 technique Jeen Kune Do, whereas Jackie Chan and Jet Lee know more than 52, are we saying Jet Lee or Jackie Chan beats Bruce Lee senseless since they know so many other styles???????

Besides Hohenheim_of_light did agree Batman loses, he also said Karate Kid wins, both of which are very legibal statement i cant understand what the topic is about.

Actually, Bruce Lee trained in Wing Chun Kung Fu. Jeen Kune Do is his own shoot off from that.

Saying Jet Lee 'knows' of 52 styles is, first off, different from saying he knows or has studied 52 different martial arts. It is also a far cry from being able to say Jet Lee has 'mastered' said styles or disciplines. If Jet Lee and/or Jackie Chan had mastered many other styles, then yes, they would beat Bruce Lee.

Jet Lee probably would anyway. He was the 5 time Kung Fu champion in China. Which competitions did Bruce Lee win again? Right.

I'll throw at ya a better analogy; in the world of MMA (UFC), who would win, the fighter who has mastered wrestling, knows of jui jitsu, and other arts, but has only really mastered the finer points of wrestling, or the dude who has mastered wrestling, jui jitsu, karate, muay thai, and kick boxing? This is really the more apt way of looking at things.

The more well rounded fighter will always win. I'd say having mastered 127 different martial arts denotes an extremely well rounded fighter. A supernatural one in fact.

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Killemall said:

Actually, Bruce Lee trained in Wing Chun Kung Fu. Jeen Kune Do is his own shoot off from that.

Saying Jet Lee 'knows' of 52 styles is, first off, different from saying he knows or has studied 52 different martial arts. It is also a far cry from being able to say Jet Lee has 'mastered' said styles or disciplines. If Jet Lee and/or Jackie Chan had mastered many other styles, then yes, they would beat Bruce Lee.

Jet Lee probably would anyway. He was the 5 time Kung Fu champion in China. Which competitions did Bruce Lee win again? Right.

I'll throw at ya a better analogy; in the world of MMA (UFC), who would win, the fighter who has mastered wrestling, knows of jui jitsu, and other arts, but has only really mastered the finer points of wrestling, or the dude who has mastered wrestling, jui jitsu, karate, muay thai, and kick boxing? This is really the more apt way of looking at things.

The more well rounded fighter will always win. I'd say having mastered 127 different martial arts denotes an extremely well rounded fighter. A supernatural one in fact.

• Opps my bad :)
• I still dont think Jet Lee could beat Bruce Lee, because well Bruce Lee and Wong Fei-hung (both totally different styles) are always respected perhaps as the best fighters to ever live.
• What i meant was someone who knows 1 art well could perhaps beat ppl who know 50. Its like being Jack of all and master of none.
• I dont agree with the last para, specially the word ALWAYS, because just because u know more styles doesnt necessary mean you are a better fighter.

@Killemall said:

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@Killemall said:

Actually, Bruce Lee trained in Wing Chun Kung Fu. Jeen Kune Do is his own shoot off from that.

Saying Jet Lee 'knows' of 52 styles is, first off, different from saying he knows or has studied 52 different martial arts. It is also a far cry from being able to say Jet Lee has 'mastered' said styles or disciplines. If Jet Lee and/or Jackie Chan had mastered many other styles, then yes, they would beat Bruce Lee.

Jet Lee probably would anyway. He was the 5 time Kung Fu champion in China. Which competitions did Bruce Lee win again? Right.

I'll throw at ya a better analogy; in the world of MMA (UFC), who would win, the fighter who has mastered wrestling, knows of jui jitsu, and other arts, but has only really mastered the finer points of wrestling, or the dude who has mastered wrestling, jui jitsu, karate, muay thai, and kick boxing? This is really the more apt way of looking at things.

The more well rounded fighter will always win. I'd say having mastered 127 different martial arts denotes an extremely well rounded fighter. A supernatural one in fact.

• Opps my bad :)
• I still dont think Jet Lee could beat Bruce Lee, because well Bruce Lee and Wong Fei-hung (both totally different styles) are always respected perhaps as the best fighters to ever live.
• What i meant was someone who knows 1 art well could perhaps beat ppl who know 50. Its like being Jack of all and master of none.
• I dont agree with the last para, specially the word ALWAYS, because just because u know more styles doesnt necessary mean you are a better fighter.

- Bruce Lee was an amazing athlete and a great martial artist. Bad actor, but a great martial artist. He was not, however, a prize fighter nor was he a recognized champion of anything really. His status as a martial legend gets ahead of him. Jet Lee, on the other hand, is a 5 time Kung Fu Chinese champion. That's huge. His greater status as an icon aside, I truly doubt Bruce Lee would win that one based off martial accomplishments alone.

- I think we need to be clear between 'knowing' an art and having 'mastered' said art. Batman has purportedly mastered 127 styles. That does not denote a 'jack of all trades master of none'. That is flat out proclaiming 'master of many'. Period. So one who has mastered 127 martial styles is far better positioned than one who simply 'knows' every style on earth or has mastered but a few.

- And you're flat out wrong in disagreeing. That, or you simply misunderstand. Aside from chance (lucky punch) the well rounded fighter will always win against one who has focussed on one art to the detriment of all the rest. Now, if the 'well rounded' fighter is only mediocre in said disciplines and the other is a master wrestler, well then the 'well rounded' fighter is going to spend the match on his back. I am not referring to such a situation. I am, of course, referring to one who has actually mastered all his arts versus an opponent who has mastered but one.

@Killemall said:

@spiderbuck said:

@Hohenheim_of_light said:

So he has more than a lifetime of knowledge of martial arts? How many lifetimes of knowledge does he have then? Wouldn't a lifetime essentially all that a person knows?? You're making zero sense.

Sorry i dont understand what you guys are debating about, because the number of styles you know doesnt mean much to be honest. Think it think way, Bruce Lee to be frankly honest is a master of 1 technique Jeen Kune Do, whereas Jackie Chan and Jet Lee know more than 52, are we saying Jet Lee or Jackie Chan beats Bruce Lee senseless since they know so many other styles???????

Besides Hohenheim_of_light did agree Batman loses, he also said Karate Kid wins, both of which are very legibal statement i cant understand what the topic is about.

Agreed. Knowing dozens of fighting styles at some point is simply redundant. There are only so many ways to bend a limb or throw a strike.

Edit: The issue I was taking was with the argument that Batman somehow has more MA knowledge than the "lifetime's worth" he refers to on the disc.

"He only stated that there was a lifetime worth of knowledge on that disc, not that it's his lifetime of knowledge." - H

As if by making a distinction between "a" and "his" MA knowledge is going to make a difference. The implication here is that Batman has another disc with techniques there weren't on the first disc or something. Way back in the middle of the first disc it was too much already.

It's NOT about if you know studied on, five, ten or fifty lifetimes worth of super secret martial arts discs. Seriously... who needs 127 martial arts? That's just spamming. As discussed, there are only so many ways to knock someone out, break a limb, or choke someone unconscious.

@Hohenheim_of_light said:

@spiderbuck said:

@Hohenheim_of_light said:

@Erik said:

@Hohenheim_of_light said:

@Erik said:

@Hohenheim_of_light:

Batgirl V1 issue 07. Batman's lifetime of accumulated martial arts knowledge encompasses 127 martial arts styles.

As for the Wolverine scan. Well you got me. I was being lazy because I do not feel like going and finding the evidence for you. A handbook that happens to be right on that particular thing is just as good.

Are you talking about when he gave Batgirl that disc? He only stated that there was a lifetime worth of knowledge on that disc, not that it's his lifetime of knowledge. In the next scan it states that there are 127 major styles of combat, it sounds like he's saying that there are 127 major styles of combat total, so if he mastered all of those styles that would make him a master of all styles on the planet.

Right. A lifetime worth of knowledge on that disc. Either his or others. So you are either saying that he knows 127 different fighting styles or you are saying that he has yet to even catch up to that.

A lifetime of knowledge doesn't mean that it's all of Batman's martial arts knowledge on that disc. I'm stating that he said that there are 127 styles of combat total which really has nothing to do with the disc that he gave Batgirl.

So he has more than a lifetime of knowledge of martial arts? How many lifetimes of knowledge does he have then? Wouldn't a lifetime essentially all that a person knows?? You're making zero sense.

How about instead of the regular trolling you do and putting words in my mouth, you try paying attention to what's been said in the thread?

Don't talk to me about putting stuff in your mouth you sick freak. That's the second time you called me a troll. If I didn't know any better I'd think you were baiting me into engaging in a flame war with you or something. You need to relax with all that stuff.

@spiderbuck: Hey, hey, hey. Enough of that.

Honestly, Batman's mastery of 127 types of martial arts is BS in my opinion. Not because it's a comic, but because timeline wise, even with his genius level intellect there is not enough time for him to be a technological genius, hacker, entrepreneur, detective and a master of 127 martial arts.

I believe that he probably knows various techniques taken from each one of those martial arts and probably mastered a few of the important ones.

Besides that, it's not the quantity but a mixture of the quality and quantity.

Yeah, well that's just like, your opinion, man. He mastered them all.

@SlimJ87D said:

Besides that, it's not the quantity but a mixture of the quality and quantity.

so full of win.

@Static Shock said:

@spiderbuck: Hey, hey, hey. Enough of that.

fair enough. but that's the second time dude has called me a troll. no es cool.

Idk, pretty close battle.

@HughJass said:

Yeah, well that's just like, your opinion, man. He mastered them all.

Sure buddy. Where's the hard proof that he has. There's a lot of times someone says something in a comic book that is exaggerated. Mastering 127 forms of combat I'd like to see. Feat wise, I don't think we have ever seen him perform 127 different kinds of ways to kick and punch that are vastly different.

@joshmightbe said:

its a good fight but Iron Fist wins

This. Exactly.

@SlimJ87D said:

@HughJass said:

Yeah, well that's just like, your opinion, man. He mastered them all.

Sure buddy. Where's the hard proof that he has. There's a lot of times someone says something in a comic book that is exaggerated. Mastering 127 forms of combat I'd like to see. Feat wise, I don't think we have ever seen him perform 127 different kinds of ways to kick and punch that are vastly different.

It's been said multiple times in narrative, by every DC Encyclopedia, by Batman, and others. There you go.

"B-but my high school maffs and sciences and sensei said..." in 3, 2, 1...

@HughJass said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@HughJass said:

Yeah, well that's just like, your opinion, man. He mastered them all.

Sure buddy. Where's the hard proof that he has. There's a lot of times someone says something in a comic book that is exaggerated. Mastering 127 forms of combat I'd like to see. Feat wise, I don't think we have ever seen him perform 127 different kinds of ways to kick and punch that are vastly different.

It's been said multiple times in narrative, by every DC Encyclopedia, by Batman, and others. There you go.

"B-but my high school maffs and sensei said..." in 3, 2, 1...

I took a quick picture of one of my Batman guides. It doesn't say he MASTERED them. It said he learned them. There is a major difference when you tell someone you learned how to multiply and you actually mastered multiplication.

Coincidentally, there are various other users that agree with me:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-322530-127-fighting-styles.html

Back to the main point, EVEN IF it said he mastered them, this is like everyone saying Sentry has the power of millions of exploding suns and yet do we see anything remotely close to that? No.

So like, where's the proof bro? Or, is it just your opinion.

Gallery

@SlimJ87D: Ummm...does that entry saying he learned them mean he cannot have mastered them? Didn't think so. There are people who agree with me too so moot point.

Iron Fist wins.

@HughJass:

Sure buddy, I think we've read Sentry has the power of millions of exploding suns more often then they have stated Batman's ability to master every form of combat. I don't think you're getting the point. Batman can say he mastered 127 or every form of combat yet people that have been doing martial arts their whole lives never say they mastered their martial art.

But lets just agree to disagree.

@SlimJ87D said:

Sure buddy, I think we've read Sentry has the power of millions of exploding suns more often then they have stated Batman's ability to master every form of combat. I don't think you're getting the point. Batman can say he mastered 127 or every form of combat yet people that have been doing martial arts their whole lives never say they mastered their martial art.

But lets just agree to disagree.

I'm not going comment on the Sentry because that's a straw man. We'll agree to disagree but I'd just like to comment on your last point. DC humans are clearly superior to us both physically and mentally. Heros such as Batman have achieved far more than we could hope of ever accomplishing of in terms of strength, reflexes, speed, tech, etc. Why should we say something is impossible in the DC universe if it seems impossible in ours? The two are clearly not in liaison.

@HughJass: Well first, people here didn't understand that it wasn't the quality of your combat but how many forms of combat you know that gets you the win. So a large margin of people here assumed "Batman wins because he knows more styles of combat." It is clear that this is not true because Batman has gotten beat up and kidnapped from time to time. Like just recently in batman and Robin.

Second, I have a different view of mastery over a form of combat because everyone I've practiced with always tells me the same thing after every lesson. That they are still learning themselves. These are guys that were raised into the martial arts. So I just have a different definition of "mastery" than you do. That's why I'd rather agree to disagree.

I can only believe that he knows various techniques from all said martial arts and that he knows enough to teach them like how a brown belt is allowed to teach Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. This is evident by just looking at his proteges, Barbara, Dick and Tim.

@SlimJ87D: Trust me, I see where you're coming from. I wrestle at the D1 level and am still learning as well. But I still believe characters like Batman are meant to take things like this to the extreme and truly master all forms of combat known to him. I don't think it's supposed to be realistic in that sense.

@SlimJ87D said:

@HughJass:

Sure buddy, I think we've read Sentry has the power of millions of exploding suns more often then they have stated Batman's ability to master every form of combat. I don't think you're getting the point. Batman can say he mastered 127 or every form of combat yet people that have been doing martial arts their whole lives never say they mastered their martial art.

But lets just agree to disagree.

Sentry ain't Batman,he has never done anything to prove his billion sun non sense.Batman has plenty of feats showing his skill.

@entropy_aegis said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@HughJass:

Sure buddy, I think we've read Sentry has the power of millions of exploding suns more often then they have stated Batman's ability to master every form of combat. I don't think you're getting the point. Batman can say he mastered 127 or every form of combat yet people that have been doing martial arts their whole lives never say they mastered their martial art.

But lets just agree to disagree.

Sentry ain't Batman,he has never done anything to prove his billion sun non sense.Batman has plenty of feats showing his skill.

K, assuming that he does. It doesn't constitute a win just because you know 127 styles, and someone knows 10 styles. Just saying. I don't know who would win in this battle.

@SlimJ87D said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@SlimJ87D said:

@HughJass:

Sure buddy, I think we've read Sentry has the power of millions of exploding suns more often then they have stated Batman's ability to master every form of combat. I don't think you're getting the point. Batman can say he mastered 127 or every form of combat yet people that have been doing martial arts their whole lives never say they mastered their martial art.

But lets just agree to disagree.

Sentry ain't Batman,he has never done anything to prove his billion sun non sense.Batman has plenty of feats showing his skill.

K, assuming that he does. It doesn't constitute a win just because you know 127 styles, and someone knows 10 styles. Just saying. I don't know who would win in this battle.

True.

@SlimJ87D said:

Honestly, Batman's mastery of 127 types of martial arts is BS in my opinion. Not because it's a comic, but because timeline wise, even with his genius level intellect there is not enough time for him to be a technological genius, hacker, entrepreneur, detective and a master of 127 martial arts.

I believe that he probably knows various techniques taken from each one of those martial arts and probably mastered a few of the important ones.

Besides that, it's not the quantity but a mixture of the quality and quantity.

Well, I think we've just been shown the scan that pretty much ends that discussion. It was said Batman 'knows of' 127 different forms ... not mastered.

Such being the case, I agree that 'mastering' a martial form is far more beneficial. However, I'm pretty sure Bruce is far from merely mediocre in any one of his chosen arts. I believe we both would agree to look at the equation this way;

Quality is superior, or more advantageous, to mere quantity with the greatest combination of both quantity and quality, married together, being the optimum scenario.

However, the fact remains, one who has 'mastered' more arts has a distinct advantage in a martial battle gainst an opponent who has mastered fewer given that both opponents are fairly equal physically.

@spiderbuck said:

@Killemall said:

@spiderbuck said:

@Hohenheim_of_light said:

So he has more than a lifetime of knowledge of martial arts? How many lifetimes of knowledge does he have then? Wouldn't a lifetime essentially all that a person knows?? You're making zero sense.

Sorry i dont understand what you guys are debating about, because the number of styles you know doesnt mean much to be honest. Think it think way, Bruce Lee to be frankly honest is a master of 1 technique Jeen Kune Do, whereas Jackie Chan and Jet Lee know more than 52, are we saying Jet Lee or Jackie Chan beats Bruce Lee senseless since they know so many other styles???????

Besides Hohenheim_of_light did agree Batman loses, he also said Karate Kid wins, both of which are very legibal statement i cant understand what the topic is about.

Agreed. Knowing dozens of fighting styles at some point is simply redundant. There are only so many ways to bend a limb or throw a strike.

Edit: The issue I was taking was with the argument that Batman somehow has more MA knowledge than the "lifetime's worth" he refers to on the disc.

"He only stated that there was a lifetime worth of knowledge on that disc, not that it's his lifetime of knowledge." - H

As if by making a distinction between "a" and "his" MA knowledge is going to make a difference. The implication here is that Batman has another disc with techniques there weren't on the first disc or something. Way back in the middle of the first disc it was too much already.

It's NOT about if you know studied on, five, ten or fifty lifetimes worth of super secret martial arts discs. Seriously... who needs 127 martial arts? That's just spamming. As discussed, there are only so many ways to knock someone out, break a limb, or choke someone unconscious.

Not really. I completely disagree with that comment.

- There are arts that focus on striking with fists (boxing), others with feet and fists (kick boxing), others with feet, fists, elbows and knees (muay thai) with different combo variations throughout. One who learns only muay thai is generally far weaker and slower with his hands than the boxer ... so every MMA fighter knows that they ignore boxing at their peril (just to lend one example).

- There are other arts that focus on shoot fighting, grappling (including dirty boxing), submissions, submission defense, wrestling, ground and pound (pankration), and different combinations and variations throughout. A jui jitsu specialist is all well and good. Without the wrestling skills to take em to the mat, you're gimped (just to lend another small example) and without the ground and pound to soften / break through their guard / submission defense, you're also gimped.

- There are arts that focus on defense (Aikido) and others that focus on static kata offense (karate), fluid kata offense (kung fu), focusing and projecting chi throughout every movement / kata exercise (tai chi).

- There are arts that focus on weapons training (Iaijitsu, kendo) or a combination of striking and weapons training (ninjutsu etc.).

If there is a man or woman who has in actuality mastered all these forms (plus the dozens of other equally pertinent and unique forms of defense not mentioned here), they would rightly be considered a martial god.

Unforunately, for us mere mortals, it is a physical impossibility. For most, mastering but one, is an endeavor of a lifetime that few can attain or aspire to.

@HughJass said:

@SlimJ87D: Trust me, I see where you're coming from. I wrestle at the D1 level and am still learning as well. But I still believe characters like Batman are meant to take things like this to the extreme and truly master all forms of combat known to him. I don't think it's supposed to be realistic in that sense.

You're a D1 wrestler and you are buying all of this "mastered 127 styles" stuff? Let's say you fight someone who is splitting his time between "127" styles... you think they are going to be able to stuff a takedown from you? Deathstroke beat the dirt of Batman from pillar to post, NOT because he knew "128" styles, but rather because he's more proficient at the arts he's chosen to focus on.

But srsly, much respect on that, and good luck this upcoming season. Let me know how it goes, and if you are ever in the bay area hit me up and you can drop by my gym for some legit training doing some sub grappling. The gym is run by well known mma champs. High level wrestlers are always welcome and being a wrestler myself it's always nice to have someone around to roll with who enjoys takedowns and won't just pull guard or expect you to.

@Super_SoldierXII said:

@spiderbuck said:

If there is a man or woman who has in actuality mastered all these forms (plus the dozens of other equally pertinent and unique forms of defense not mentioned here), they would rightly be considered a martial god.

Unforunately, for us mere mortals, it is a physical impossibility. For most, mastering but one, is an endeavor of a lifetime that few can attain or aspire to.

As to the second part of your post: Batman is a badass, no doubt, but he is in fact a mere mortal, and therefore, it is also a physical and logical impossibility.

Regarding the first part: MMA fighters don't become champions because they are knowledgeable or proficient in more arts than another, it's more often about which skills match up best with their opponents at the highest levels, but generally it's just being so much better at one aspect of your fight game that you are able to impose a victory on the strength of that one aspect of your game where you excel.

I do agree that diversity in training is important. I practice nogi, bjj with a gi, judo, mui thai, boxing, etc. But the fact is, splitting your time between all of those arts, you can never "master" them all. There is always one aspect of your game where you just have to be awesome. For me that will always be wrestling. For IF, he's just so high level, while remaining well rounded, that he will be able to impose his style on Bats.

@spiderbuck said:

You're a D1 wrestler and you are buying all of this "mastered 127 styles" stuff? Let's say you fight someone who is splitting his time between "127" styles... you think they are going to be able to stuff a takedown from you? Deathstroke beat the dirt of Batman from pillar to post, NOT because he knew "128" styles, but rather because he's more proficient at the arts he's chosen to focus on.

I'm buying it because it's a comic book (and I'm a Batman fan). I really don't know what else to say. Of course it's not feasible in real life, but again...Batman is a comic book character. A human in our universe shouldn't be able to dodge bullets either.

@SlimJ87D:It doesn't state that he hasn't mastered them either, if there are a few credible sources that says that he's mastered every fighting style, and no statement or source to contradict it than it's pretty valid.

I don't think it matters how many styles he knows anyway and I do agree that it's quality over quantity, good thing that Batman possesses both in spades.

That said I'd say Rand would take it in an extremely close fight. I haven't seen anyone here actually state that Batman wins, or that a fighter is superior because he knows more styles, so far most of this thread has been debating on the validity of Batman knowing every style and not how good he is because of it. If people actually debate Batman winning in martial arts against another opponent I rarely see anyone mention how many styles he masters, I personally rarely mention it and use the actual martial arts feats he's performed.

@spiderbuck:

@HughJass:

Guys, the quantity thing does not matter in this debate anymore. This topic isn't going anywhere. We've discussed how realistic it is to believe Batman knows these styles more than we have the actual battle itself. We all agreed that it's not quantity, but rather quality.

So debate about the actual fight with some feats or let the topic rest while you guys agree to disagree.

@spiderbuck said:

But srsly, much respect on that, and good luck this upcoming season. Let me know how it goes, and if you are ever in the bay area hit me up and you can drop by my gym for some legit training doing some sub grappling. The gym is run by well known mma champs. High level wrestlers are always welcome and being a wrestler myself it's always nice to have someone around to roll with who enjoys takedowns and won't just pull guard or expect you to.

Hey thanks a lot but I'm actually just a back up. The coach let me walk on to the team mostly because of my work ethic. I just love the sport and it's awesome to get to roll with some of these guys (although I pretty much get my ass kicked every day).

@HughJass said:

@spiderbuck said:

You're a D1 wrestler and you are buying all of this "mastered 127 styles" stuff? Let's say you fight someone who is splitting his time between "127" styles... you think they are going to be able to stuff a takedown from you? Deathstroke beat the dirt of Batman from pillar to post, NOT because he knew "128" styles, but rather because he's more proficient at the arts he's chosen to focus on.

I'm buying it because it's a comic book (and I'm a Batman fan). I really don't know what else to say. Of course it's not feasible in real life, but again...Batman is a comic book character. A human in our universe shouldn't be able to dodge bullets either.

hmm... I suppose, but I think that's CIS, but it's necessary to suspend belief to a certain extent so that's somewhat understandable.

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/off-topic/5/how-is-it-that-batman-can-dodge-bullets/580597/

@Death Certificate said:

Cause he's the Goddamned batman JK Well mainly due fact that bullets in comic are only fatal to human support characters.

@HughJass said:

@spiderbuck said:

But srsly, much respect on that, and good luck this upcoming season. Let me know how it goes, and if you are ever in the bay area hit me up and you can drop by my gym for some legit training doing some sub grappling. The gym is run by well known mma champs. High level wrestlers are always welcome and being a wrestler myself it's always nice to have someone around to roll with who enjoys takedowns and won't just pull guard or expect you to.

Hey thanks a lot but I'm actually just a back up. The coach let me walk on to the team mostly because of my work ethic. I just love the sport and it's awesome to get to roll with some of these guys (although I just get my ass kicked every day).

The training you are getting right now is invaluable. I know people who would pay hundreds of dollars a month for the privilege if were even available to them (which for most people, it's just not). You have a good attitude and no ego, so enjoy and embrace the ass kickings, for only fire forges steel.

IF 5.5/10

Batman breaks him in half everytime.

not to sound stupid but regardless of powers/gadgets or not iron still wins cuz "he has forgot about fighting more then you'll ever know" or something like that, which pretty much says he is king of all hand to hand combat and knows how to imply it cuz hes practiced every possible counter attack etc etc.. sure batman is smart and he applies that during battle but theres things batman doesnt know besides the typical martial arts and crap so iron fist has far more expierence and sure it depends on how each attack is applied on both parties but hey you cant fuck with the statement about 'forgetting how to fight cuz you know how so much' and its batman, bm is bm cuz its bm no matter what you say to him his response is always "im batman" so it comes down to who you favor in this fight not actual stats or whatever