#1 Edited by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

Iron Fist (Danny) and Luke Cage vs Venom (Flash) and Scarlet Spider (Kaine)

Team Spider vs Team Power

Rules

  • Morals on
  • Random encounter, no prior knowledge of any characters
  • Team chemistry comes into play
  • Standard gear for both teams
  • No external help, aid or allies, strictly a 2v2
  • Fight is won by Death, KO, Incapacitation or Surrender

Location

Desert City

  • No BFR
  • No bystanders
  • 50 meter starting distance

Who Wins?

#2 Posted by Hyperlight (5442 posts) - - Show Bio

kaine has to attack danny quickly.... if he gives him time to gather chi and raise his stats then he canchop kaine in half but ill give the majority to kaine if he isnt joking.

venom at his base level can take luke.. but his strength will rise of need be. he is also supeior in the other areas other than durability.

team spider

#3 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@hyperlight: Danny doesn't have to gather chi, he only really uses it to augment his striking power. Luke Cage beat down Eddie Brock Venom iirc. I wouldn't count that team out.

#4 Posted by Mattersuit (4270 posts) - - Show Bio

I can only see the Spiders winning if Flash Vulks out.

#5 Posted by gunmetalgrey (1267 posts) - - Show Bio

@hyperlight: Danny needs little to no time to charge up for chi-amped attacks these days:

And his hands are already pretty lethal even without the chi.

Kaine can take a hit though, and has an insanely high pain tolerance. Hmm..

#6 Posted by Bossmonster (2166 posts) - - Show Bio

Team Power.

Even if Iron fist need to gather chi, Cage can by him the time needed for this. After that, it's all down hill for team spider.

#7 Edited by Hyperlight (5442 posts) - - Show Bio

@calebhara: true....very true. but would have to max out his chi manipulation to keep up with kaine

#8 Posted by CalebHara (2329 posts) - - Show Bio

@hyperlight: Not really, his speed feats rival Kaine's. He harldy uses chi to augment his speed at all.

#9 Edited by Nefarious (18670 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 1 gets incapacitated via webbing.

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#10 Posted by gunmetalgrey (1267 posts) - - Show Bio

@nefarious: I'm not sure if Cage is strong enough to break out of webbing, but Danny should be able to shred through it with his chi.

#11 Posted by Warmachine7222 (5 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Heroes For Hire would put up a great fight but in the end I think Thompson and Caine take it.

#12 Edited by Nefarious (18670 posts) - - Show Bio

@warmachine7222: If Danny manages to do that, Spider will knock him and Cage out.

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#13 Posted by laflux (14128 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm torn on this battle. I feel that Luke Cage is the weak link, and could beaten by of the Spider-Team, due to lack of speed and versatility. On the other hand, I would regard Iron Fist as the MVP, given the fact that both Flash and SS have no previous knowledge of the character. Both Kaine and Flash are not adverse to tanking damage when compared to Spider-Man due to their natural durability, healing and pain resistance, which would be disadvantageous when fighting Iron Fist. On the other-hand, by just looking at the two, Iron Fist would know that their powers are Spider-Based just by their costumes, and react accordingly.

Now others may make the assumption that Iron Fist shouldn't beat either Kaine or Venom on the basis that he hasn't beaten Spider-Man, and his conversation with the new Power Man (he did seem to forget that he wrecked through Cap, Spidey and Logan in a training simulation, but we'll that's kinda PIS :p). However, he did say he was able to hold his own, as well as keep up (and his feats are consistent with this) and all his fights against Spider-Man were before his best feats (Knocking out Skaar, Punching out a hellicarrier etc) and more importantly, before studying the book of the Iron Fist. And this is without taking into account Peter's more evasive nature.

If we were to go by the whole incap arguement, then Luke Cage has a decent chance of tearing through it, and Danny could just power through it.

Personally I'd say the fight comes down to whether Fist can take down a non-vulked Venom/SS before Venom/Kaine can bring down Lucas. I'd go with Team Heroes for Hire given the OP conditions, but an argument can be made either way....

I think that's where I'll start

oh and @god_spawn @strider92 @jashro44 @super_soldierxii

what do you think?

#14 Edited by Strider92 (16092 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: Whenever it comes down to IF Vs Spider-man I always say that Danny can't stay at the same speed as Parker for consistent amounts of time. He can use his chi to boost his reactions and speed for certain amounts of time but from what i've seen he can't stay at this level indefinitely. This coupled with Pete's strong sense of Morals makes Danny a threat to Parker. Peter should take a majority but not as easily as he could if not holding back. In this case we have someone just as fast as Pete but doesn't have any qualms about killing or maiming. Danny admitted Spider-man was hard to fight (due to his unnatural agility and spider-sense) Kaine lacks the spider-sense true but makes up for that with a killer instinct. With Morals On Danny won't be going all out so this lessens his chances of winning even more. Kaine should take a majority due to his stats. Heck he could use his stingers to paralyze Danny. Despite his chi Danny still isn't much above peak human in durability he is the definition of glass cannon. Those poisoned stingers put down a 30tonner in strength and durability at one point I see no reason they shouldn't effect Danny. The same can be said for Venom Vs IF except Venom's durability is slightly better. Rhe fact that Danny also has to charge his chi attacks means that his only real chance is that Kaine and Flash don't go in guns blazing but this is in-character for both of them so I wouldn't like his chances.

Luke Cage is definitely a weak link. Both Kaine and Flash have a very good chance of winning via incap with webbing. Cage's only real asset is his superhuman strength which is around the 25ton mark something Flash might and Kaine definitely should be able to match. He's durable yes but he's too slow to present a significant threat to either Kaine or Flash. This is basically a "anything you can do I can do better" scenario.

Team 2 should take a solid majority.

#15 Posted by Super_SoldierXII (6167 posts) - - Show Bio

@nefarious: I'm not sure if Cage is strong enough to break out of webbing, but Danny should be able to shred through it with his chi.

Cage is more than strong enough to break free of the webbing. The webbing is not a factor in this fight.

#16 Edited by laflux (14128 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: I think the degree to which Iron Fist would be going all out, won't be so much as to completely eliminating the chance of KO'ing either of the Spider team. He knows what the Spider Characters are capable of, so will be holding back less than Flash, although not so much Kaine. Yes, Kaine has the greater natural stats, but its the case of whether he would use them in character against what seems to be at first glance a normal human. As for the Speed arguement, I will concede that Danny probably can't keep up his speed as long as the Spider-Team, but even so, we've seen him mercilessly blitz BP (Who is around Cap's level of Speed), and completely cream his vibranuim suit, while he was mind-controlled, which was Pre studying from the Book of the Iron Fist. We've seen him show enough speed to at least keep with Peter Parker in previous fights. We've even seen him beat Peter, Cap and Logan in a training simulation (while the result is probably false), he still was keeping up his speed (he was mind-controlled there too), and it was Pre Book of the Iron Fist. And his level of Speed is such that he's nonchalantly caught a sniper rifle bullet, and caught bullets from Cap's Pistol (strong enough to put ares on his a$$), and then thrown them back. Combined with the fact that Kaine isn't as evasive as Peter, and doesn't have the SS (which is what Iron Fist pointed out to Power Man in particular), is enough for Danny to keep up along as he's done with Peter (I'd say these facts are countered by the raw speed boost the Other gives you, as mentioned by Peter in his talk with Iron Man).

Flash for me doesn't seem to have that many impressive Speed Feats when compared to Spider-Man. He was weakened against Kraven, with poison, but did seem to struggle to keep up with him. Peter Likewise was cut by a poison knife in Grim Hunt, and still was too Fast for Kraven. Maybe I'm low-balling here, but I've always seen a Non-Vulked Flash as being comparable to Peter in strength, with greater durability, less speed, but with greater versatility (due to shape-shifting and what not).

As for Danny need to Charge his punches, that's something that's largely restricted to his classic feats, or when targeting very big/durable objects. Danny has Charged up his punches against Skaar, The Hellicarrier, and the Train full of explosives to give examples. However those things are alot more durable than Kaine and Venom are, and are countered by Iron Fist Blitzing through BP's Vibranuim armor, casually downing Mister X with a Chi enhanced pressure point, Punching through Spider-Man chest, so fast he couldn't react in the training simulation- even if we say Spider-Man could have reacted (which is I believe), that still requires no real charging up.

The Stingers and Danny's Durability are valid points. Even so, the instance I'm 90 percent I'm sure your referencing to is with El Muerto and Iron Spider-Man enhanced by The Other. That battle took place in a wrestling ring, so makes doing such a thing more easy, as it is a close quarter environment. Furthermore, El Muerto had Spider-Man locked in a submission hold, and this is when Spider-Man's stingers inadvertently activated, and scratched him. Danny is not going to be going for Submission holds, in fact his whole style of fighting would be completely different (based on striking- no surprise there). Also we have to remember that for all of El Muerto strength he has shown no displayed healing factor, so we need to take that into account. For example Luke Cage is supposed to stronger than Spider-Man (I say supposed, since honestly, Peter's top end feats are just as good) but his healing factor is faster than Luke Cage's. Danny has displayed amped healing via chi on multiple ocassions. Danny's Durability is definitely a weak link (which is I think it comes down to who can hit who), but it would be implausible for Danny to slice through a giants leg with his hands, without a significant degree of Superhuman durability. He also was taking a beating from Fat Cobra (who is explicitly stated to have Super-Strength at the level of 5 tons in his bio) that he can amp using chi to levels where he is literally disintegrating Ninja's with Thunderclaps, and creating fissures in the ground by jumping. And Iron Fist wasn't 100 Percent during this time.

As For Luke Cage

HE ABLEZZZ TO slAPZZ ARounD sHe HULKz and Tankzs An NUkezz IN AgE Of ULtron. HE SOLOSZZZ

Bendis............ Will you ever write a crossover anywhere near the level of House of Marvel Again?

#17 Edited by Hyperlight (5442 posts) - - Show Bio

@calebhara: really? IIRC danny is a human that can augment his physical stats but at a base level he is human

#19 Edited by Strider92 (16092 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: Did you just quote yourself lol!?

Anyways I agree with a few things however Danny is not going to be on lethal mode and will be testing the boundaries of what his opponent (whether Kaine or Flash) can take thus initially he's not going to hit them with enough juice to one-shot either because he won't be aware of their durability level (yes he is aware of Spider-man's but Kaine doesn't dress like Peter and Danny isn't the kind of guy to make a guess at the fact Kaine might be Pete physical equal and rick being wrong and out-right killing someone) as soon as Kaine does get tagged he's going to know to stop trying to take blows and given how he's traded blows with Carnage who was around the 80ton level its unlikely that Danny will one-shot him with an initial attack. After that its possible as he'll be more aware of Kaine's superior durability and will turn up the tempo but this in turn also lets Kaine know how hard he can hit and to start avoiding.

At the end of the day IF's only way of taking down Kaine is to hit him with and Iron Fist. Kaine on the other hand has webbing for incap, stingers for paralysis, enough strength to KO Danny, the will the actually hurt him and the speed to do it (given what we saw of Kaine's fight vs Wolverine).

#20 Posted by laflux (14128 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92: By mistake. Its the longest piece on non-trolling work I've put on the vine............... in a while

Is Carnage really at the 80 ton mark? I remember a vulked out Venom over-powering him, and I wouldn't put him on that level. Toxin probably has the most legitimate claim of such a high tonnage figure.

Yeah, the Paralysis could work, I just don't think it would be as easy as when Spider-Man did so against El Muerto. I still reckon Danny could power through the Webbing with chi.

And there is always- THE HYPNOTIC FIST.

Man I really wish they would bring that back :P

#21 Edited by Strider92 (16092 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: My mistake Carnage is a 50tonner. Still pretty impressive though and Flash-Venom should never over-power Carnage psychically. Him doing that is PIS.

#22 Posted by Hyperlight (5442 posts) - - Show Bio

@calebhara thats as a result of his chi.. not training. its not possible to train yourself to superhuman capacity because its outside your bodies capability to do so. just like how cap cant get any stronger naturally because his body is already maxed out. anything stronger than peak human is in the superhuman category and people cant get there without outside influence.

anything that IF does that is of superhuman caliber is a result of his bond with shou lou the undying

#23 Posted by VeganDiet (978 posts) - - Show Bio

@gunmetalgrey said:

@nefarious: I'm not sure if Cage is strong enough to break out of webbing, but Danny should be able to shred through it with his chi.

Cage is more than strong enough to break free of the webbing. The webbing is not a factor in this fight.

Ummm didn't Peter's organic webs hold down Iron Man when he spammed them?

#24 Edited by Sylvain (1640 posts) - - Show Bio

Team Power

#25 Posted by TDK_1997 (14456 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2 should take the majority.

#26 Edited by laflux (14128 posts) - - Show Bio
#27 Posted by tparks (4340 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux said:

I'm torn on this battle. I feel that Luke Cage is the weak link, and could beaten by of the Spider-Team, due to lack of speed and versatility. On the other hand, I would regard Iron Fist as the MVP, given the fact that both Flash and SS have no previous knowledge of the character. Both Kaine and Flash are not adverse to tanking damage when compared to Spider-Man due to their natural durability, healing and pain resistance, which would be disadvantageous when fighting Iron Fist. On the other-hand, by just looking at the two, Iron Fist would know that their powers are Spider-Based just by their costumes, and react accordingly.

Now others may make the assumption that Iron Fist shouldn't beat either Kaine or Venom on the basis that he hasn't beaten Spider-Man, and his conversation with the new Power Man (he did seem to forget that he wrecked through Cap, Spidey and Logan in a training simulation, but we'll that's kinda PIS :p). However, he did say he was able to hold his own, as well as keep up (and his feats are consistent with this) and all his fights against Spider-Man were before his best feats (Knocking out Skaar, Punching out a hellicarrier etc) and more importantly, before studying the book of the Iron Fist. And this is without taking into account Peter's more evasive nature.

If we were to go by the whole incap arguement, then Luke Cage has a decent chance of tearing through it, and Danny could just power through it.

Personally I'd say the fight comes down to whether Fist can take down a non-vulked Venom/SS before Venom/Kaine can bring down Lucas. I'd go with Team Heroes for Hire given the OP conditions, but an argument can be made either way....

I think that's where I'll start

oh and @god_spawn @strider92 @jashro44 @super_soldierxii

what do you think?

Nailed it.

Online
#28 Posted by SwordandShields (712 posts) - - Show Bio

Good Thread i see. Lets keep it going.

#29 Posted by jashro44 (19589 posts) - - Show Bio

@laflux: I haven't been online for a few days so I am a little late. As far as this fight goes I do for the most part agree with you. Only things I really disagree with is that iron fist blitzed black panther. In that fight black panther had no issues keeping up with Danny. All iron fist did was punch him repeatedly. The vibranium suit allows black panther to take hits from iron fist but whenever he gets hit he gets staggerd which allows danny to continue to stagger him with every punch making it hard for black panther to do anything in return. Black panther even showed in that fight he was fast and skilled enough to slip a sonic device in iron fists ear. I also disagree with Danny beating spider-man, cap and wolverine in a training simulation because that wasn't the real them. I would say that the computer was just inaccurate. Also about the skaar showing but IIRC skaar wasn't knocked out. It was later revealed that Skaar was a double agent so he could have been faking.

I would say Kaine vs iron fist could go either way personally. Kaine doesn't have spider-sense which is the thing that gave iron fist so much problems according to Danny. So we really shouldn't be comparing how iron fist does with spider-man. And all though iron fist did state spider-sense made it difficult for tagging Peter he also stated that if he had powermans chi reading ability to cancel out spider-mans spider-sense he could tag him. He then gave powerman tips to tag spider-man which actually worked. So he could possibly tag Kaine since he doesn't have to figure out a way to stay a step ahead of spider-mans spider-sense. Kaine is more brutal but he also doesn't use his agility much. Same applies to venom vs iron fist.

As far as dealing with cage goes they have a speed advantage and all though cages durability and strength will make putting him down really tough they could just dodge him and deal with him later (they could toss him to the side for a bit) to double team iron fist. Danny wont last long against both venom and kaine and once luke cage catches up this could be a 2 on 1. Granted venom and kaine never really did get along and cage and iron fist are actually really close friends so they have the team work advantage.

I would say this fight can go either way.

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#30 Posted by laflux (14128 posts) - - Show Bio

@jashro44: I did mention the simulation was Kinda PIS, I just mentioned it because it showed Danny didn't have to charge his punches for them to be effective. I know he didn't knock out Scar, I don't think I said he did (correct me if I'm wrong), I just mentioned it. Although point taken with BP :p

#31 Posted by Stronger (4948 posts) - - Show Bio

Team Venom wins.

#32 Posted by anurag_50 (128 posts) - - Show Bio

From what I saw of the Kaine vs Wolverine fight, I'd deduce that Kaine is fast enough to nail Danny. And I haven't read much of Iron Fist, so although it's known that he can augment his speed and agility, I am unaware of whether he can keep that agility throughout the fight, and given that he cannot match Kaine on the strength-level, I'd say that Kaine has a pretty decent chance of beating Iron Fist. If Danny somehow manages to get an Iron-Fist-KO punch on him, however, the tables would turn, but I doubt that Scarlet Spider is fast enough to dodge it.

And Power Man vs Venom is a battle I can't comment on. I haven't read much of any of them. But in all probability, Venom wins.

So, it's Team Spider for me.. Unless someone convinces me otherwise :)

#33 Posted by dondave (34402 posts) - - Show Bio

Team 2

#34 Posted by ShenKuei (1584 posts) - - Show Bio

Leaning towards team 2.