Iroh and Jeong Jeong vs Combustion Man and P'li

@arcus: My thoughts is that Iroh and Jeong Jeong seem to be the better fire benders, yet also are some of the most powerful fire benders. I think their fire would overwhelm team 2 in my view.

@aressword: They might be better at traditional fire bending, but Combustion Man and P'li have their own unique skill. P'li has also shown some good defensive firebending, easily blocking a large fire blast from a dragon

I don't think we've seen Combustion Man or P'li go up against any grandmaster firebenders to know how they'd fair. I honestly don't see what stopping Iroh or Jeong Jeong from redirecting the blast before they explode in their face. It is firebending afterall.

@storm_calling:

We've never seen Iroh or Jeong Jeong go up against combustion benders to know how they'd fare either

Maybe because there's no evidence combustion blasts can be redirected that way?

Neither of them have ever fought a skilled firebender before. They've largely only faced benders outside of their natural element. Combustion Man's only showing against a firebender was blasting Zuko off a cliff at close range, and P'li's was against a Dragon. So I think in this case, I'll need a little more evidence before I'll be convince that combustion bending would be difficult for fire bending grand masters to deal with.

I don't think there really is evidence needed. It's firebending focused into an explosion. It falls within their element and should be able to fall within their control.

@storm_calling:

And again, neither Iroh nor Jeong Jeong have fought a combustion bender. The same argument works against them. P'li also fought Mako and (in the past) old Zuko

@storm_calling:

It's extremely unlikely they can redirect the combustion blast back to it's source. We've never seen someone do this, and it's honestly tantamount to saying you could redirect a lightning bolt without knowing the redirection technique, or that any earthbender should be able to redirect metal attacks. A sub-element is different enough from it's normal element that it isn't considered a bendable for just anyone. You need skill with the sub-element yourself to manipulate it. There's no reason to suspect combustion bending is any different.

No it's not, because lightning redirection involves manipulating the chi in your body(not all firebenders are capable of doing this). Metal has fragments of earth but they are relative small and are not detectable by most earth benders. Combustion Bending is just focused fire and Zuko already demonstrated the ability to block it(granted after it exploded in his face).

@storm_calling:

Combustion bending involves focusing the chi to your forehead and releasing it in a beam that causes an explosion. It's not focused fire. You don't see a beam of fire, you see a beam of heat that sparks out in smaller booms as it travels before exploding on point. Also, yes. All firebenders can manipulate the chi in their body. Firebenders produce fire by releasing their chi from their body to produce fire. Redirecting lightning just involves manipulating it in a specific way to allow the lightning to flow through your body.

What about an earthbender trying to block a lava attack? Lava is 100% earth, just in a different state of matter. Yet earthbenders can't directly manipulate it without having the specific sub-skill of lavabending, as demonstrated by Bolin's first fight with Ghazan.

- Heat can be manipulated by firebenders.

- Manipulating it in a specific way is what I meant. Fire Benders don't control lightning either. They merely shoot it, as Iroh confirmed. So even in that case it is still not the same thing.

- Lava is heat too, and not all Earth Benders are able to control heated earth, but they can still manipulate it. And as Bolin demonstrated in their final fight, he could manipulate it too.

@storm_calling:

We've never seen heat manipulation done on that fine of a scale. The closest we get is Sozin drawing heat away from the volcano, but that technique was too slow to suggest it could be used on a combustion blast, and I doubt it'd work against the explosion that'd be sure to happen.

Technically speaking combustion benders don't seem to fully control their blasts either. At best they can curve the shot, but can't do much more than direct the chi.

Lava isn't composed of heat. It's just hot rock. Composition wise it's no different than normal earth. Also, Bolin only managed to manipulate it after he realized he could lavabend as well. It was treated as a very special skill, and in Bolin's case was why he couldn't metalbend. He was a lavabender, not a metalbender.

Iroh breathed heat on his shackles to instantly superheat them to burn an earth bender's hand. We've seen Zuko survive a gasoline explosion when Zhao and the pirates tried to have him killed. There is really no difference.

If combustion benders can curve their shots then Iroh and Jeong Jeong should be able to do the same to save themselves from it.

Lava benders apply heat to their earth bending somehow, which prevents regular earth benders from manipulating it in that state. I honestly don't see why any earth bender still wouldn't be able to manipulated it though. Lava is just heated mud, so maybe the metal clan was just more equipped at bending basic earth and metal as opposed to liquid earth. Same for Bolin.

The problem with this comparison is that we've never seen a firebender be incapable of blocking a combustion blast. Zuko already demonstrated that it can be done.

@storm_calling:

Um. Heating metal isn't the same as somehow reaching out and altering the path of a beam of heated, explosive chi and turning it around.

I agree with you, honestly. I find it odd that normal earthbenders can't manipulate lava given it IS just hot rock. But well, it's a mystical universe so I guess some things can't be explained logically.

I'm not arguing that it can't be blocked. It definitely can. Earlier in this same thread I argued that Jeong Jeong should definitely be able to block it given he's so much better at fire shields than Zuko. I'm arguing that they can't take control of the combustion beam and bend it to their will as if it were normal fire.

He heated the metal by controlling the heat from his breath. I just wanted to provide an example of Iroh himself manipulating heat. I think combustion bending is still firebending that involves all the basic methods, just in a focused fashion. A firebender like Zuko who is limited in skill was able to redirect a powerful gasoline explosion.

I agree, I think it was something that they probably just wanted to make special, without really making total sense of how they were going to limit other benders from it. I just don't see benders like Toph(old version) having a tough time with someone with this sort of special bending. The same applies to Iroh and Jeong Jeong with the combustion benders.

If it can be blocked using firebending, then I see no reason why it can't be redirected as well. If combustion benders are able to control their blast(or at least curve them), then that suggest that firebending can be used to control it after it's fired.

@arcus: Fair enough, however iroh wasn't called dragon of the west for no reason.

@storm_calling:

We'll just have to agree to disagree. There's no evidence that a combustion blast can be bent, and I for one believe it behaves just like any other sub-element in that only people with that sub-element can bend it.

@aressword: true. P'li wasn't locked up in a special prison for 13 years for no reason

1) Iroh solos
2) Iroh laughs at them while slowly burning their limbs off.

@d3athstroke: why does he solo?

Aside from the fact that it's a form of firebending that can be blocked by another firebender and can be curved by a combustion bender. P'li absorbed the firebending of Zuko's dragon to turn it into a blast, so that suggest heat is the primary candidate for the skill. There's really no evidence that it can't be bent by a skilled enough firebender, which was my primary point in my previous post. I never claimed that they absolutely should be able to bend it.

Fact is, we've never seen a combustion bender go toe to toe with a firebending grandmaster. It's not that unique of a subset skill that it would be impossible to counter bend either. Iroh and Jeong Jeong can even use their firebending to detonate the blast early or in their face as well.

I'm afraid that argument doesn't work the other way around. Grandmasters are the absolute best of the best in terms of their classical element. For P'li or Combustion Man to prove their worth in this case, we need more evidence that their form of firebending can hold up against the true masters. Mako had no more experience when he was fighting P'li than Zuko had when he fought Combustion Man(and it wasn't a one on one fight anyway). There's no reason to believe Ghazan would hold his own in a fight with Grandma Toph for example.

We never saw old man Zuko fight P'li. He fought Ghazan(which was a rather lackluster fight). And even if he had, old man Zuko has not proven that he is a firebender on par with Iroh or Jeong Jeong..

There's no evidence to suggest Jeong Jeong or Iroh would be capable of doing anything like that. Just because there's not evidence that they absolutely can't do it doesn't mean we can assume that they can do it. Until we see a firebender who's not a combustion bender bend or detonate a combustion shot, we have to assume that it can't be done

What? Yes there is. If Zuko can shield the blast with a firewall to detonate the shot before it blew him up, then Iroh and Jeong Jeong can do the same.

And again, I never claimed that they would be able to redirect the blast, just that there isn't anything preventing them from doing it. It was only hypothetical and not a method I was claiming they would absolutely use in this fight to win.

Umm there's a difference between Zuko shielding himself (that's all he did, he didn't manipulate the blast) and saying that Iroh and Jeong Jeong could actually manipulate a combustion blast by controlling where it goes or when it detonates. I agree it's possible for them to shield themselves from it, but that's all that's been shown possible

@arcus: That's not what you quoted in my post(or at least bolded). You said there was no evidence that they could detonate the blast before it could reach them, not that there was no evidence that Iroh and Jeong Jeong could control the blast themselves. The fact that Zuko was able to create a firewall to block the blast suggest that the blast can be detonated early by firebending. Jeong Jeong could form a firewall close to them and cause the explosion to detonate in their face.

I never claimed that they could actually manipulate the blast, I stated that I didn't see why they couldn't, and that was only speaking hypothetically. It was not a method I was claiming they could absolutely use in this fight.

Zuko blocked the blast, he didn't detonate the blast

The blast detonated on the firewall(not on Zuko); therefore, a firewall close to them would detonate the blast in their face.

It didn't detonate immediately when it hit Zuko's shield, and there's no reason to think Zuko caused it to detonate. The shield just kept the blast from reaching him

@arcus: Yes it did. It clearly exploded when it hit the shield, and immediately.

There is every reason to think the firewall caused the shot to detonate. Otherwise it would've went through the shield and exploded in Zuko's face. That's how the blast work. When they meet another force they detonate on contact. A skilled firebender could form a firewall in front of the bender or at a safe distance and make the blast explode early.

@storm_calling: Fair enough, looks like it did detonate. Though it is worth noting that the explosive force was all directed forwards, pushing Zuko off the ledge. It didn't harm Combustion Man at all. Jeong Jeong's the only firebender we've seen with the skill to form a firewall at a distance

The blast detonates in AOE fashion. It does not blast straight forward. It only appeared that way in this case because Zuko was the only one caught in the blast radius and was blocking it. If you observe closely enough at :58, the blast launches the other way as well.

To some degree, yes, but it didn't blast backwards and affect Combustion Man in the slightest

@arcus: Have a look at 1:04-1:05. Combustion Man was at a safe distance from the detonation, which was why he wasn't affected.

@storm_calling: how close are you expecting people to be able to get?

Team 1 wins both rounds, no contest. Less experienced teenagers have beaten Sparky sparky boom man, one of them not even a bender, may I remind you. Two fully grown men, both being experienced white lotus members who have mastered firebending to the highest potential easily win this. It has also been hinted at in the series that Iroh rivals the fire lord himself, having killed a legendary dragon and being nicknamed 'dragon of the west'.

I haven't seen P'li yet, as I'm still catching up on LOK episodes.

They don't need to get close. Iroh and Jeong Jeong should be able to form fire walls at far distances. Besides, I don't think the blast Combustion Man used on Zuko was all that powerful. He probably held back in hopes of not being caught in the blast radius.

Jeong Jeong could, Iroh's never shown that ability so there's no reason to assume he can

Sokka beat Combustion Man with a weapon Iroh and Jeong Jeong don't have and with a decent amount of luck (not that there was no skill or anything). Iroh and Jeong Jeong couldn't defeat Combustion Man the same way, so that's irrelevant.

You mean aside from the fact that he's a grandmaster firebender? I don't think you've been giving the old masters the credit they deserve in this fight.

@storm_calling:

Jeong Jeong's the only firebender we've ever seen create fire walls at a distance. Assuming that Iroh can do that just because he's a grandmaster would be like assuming Jeong Jeong or Ozai can redirect lightning even though they've never shown that skill

So now firewall is a sub bending element? Ok, I'm done debating this topic.

Iroh and Jeong Jeong for the majority. Have a nice day.

@arcus: Sokka beat cm with a well placed shot that he calculated in his head by studying where the blasts were shot from, mind you. Luck had nothing to do with the victory. And it wasn't the boomerang that won, anything could hit cm in his third eye and knock him out. At one point, a PEBBLE had the same effect on him. Literally anyone can KO cm by throwing any hard object.

@miracle-sama: it wasn't a pebble, it was a piece of the rock Toph launched at CM but he blew up. But wow, just pick up a pebble huh? So Jeong Jeong are gonna try to throw pebbles at him and land one right on his third eye with enough force to stun him? They'd have a better chance sticking with firebending @storm_calling: no, it's a skill. I don't know why that makes you so upset.

@arcus: I'm not upset. I'm just at a point where I feel like I've debated this long enough(especially considering how desperate you seem to be trying to cling to ways to limit Iroh and Jeong Jeong). I think I've more than presented an adequate argument. Even if Iroh couldn't form a firewall(which he clearly can, since he formed firewalls to defend himself and all of the other White Lotus members with him during Sozin's comet), Jeong Jeong could solo by forming a firewall ring around Combustion Man and P'li, which would prevent them both from firing their blast. Iroh can also shoot lightning at them, which they have no calling for either.

@storm_calling:

I'm sorry you feel I'm underestimating Iroh and Jeong Jeong by going by their respective feats

Iroh blocked blasts, he didn't use fire walls like Jeong Jeong

P'li could bend an opening in the fire wall

Lightning can be dodged

He blocked the blast with a fire wall. Please rewatch the scene.

Going by your logic, P'li has never shown that she can split a firewall. That is only a skill Zhao showcased, so there is no reason to assume she can do it. See how that works?

@storm_calling:

I have, he didn't use a fire walk like Jeong Jeong

Actually, no. Here's why:

1. Zhao's not a particularly good bender, certainly not good enough to have specialized moves. Jeong Jeong, on the other hand, would be good enough to have his own skills

2. Bending or moving fire that's already in existence is basic level firebending, just like it would be for any of the other elements

3. P'li showed she has regular firebending, most notably when she bent a blast from Druk. She can handle large amounts of fire

Your point? It was still a firewall that was made at a distance, which he can form in this fight to detonate their blast. You tried to claim that since he hasn't been shown making any he couldn't form them at a range to detonate them early. Clearly a firebender of his caliber is capable of doing something like that. You just didn't want to admit it because you wanted to limit him in this fight.

Zhao was still a powerful Firebender, he just lacked self control. Both Zuko and Aang were able to exploit this in their fight with him. I am well aware P'li has regular firebending, but that still doesn't mean she has shown enough skill in it to actually split of firewall of Jeong Jeong's caliber. I don't have a problem believing that she is capable of doing it, I'm just trying to show how your logic can play against you and how your arguments sound in reverse. Give the characters their credit and you won't have to worry about me doing that.

@storm_calling:

The only time he made fire that he wasn't projecting from his body was when he was breathing and charging the fireball. Even then it wasn't anything close to a fire wall, nor did it seem to be something he could create anywhere.

Zhao' probably the weakest named firebender in the series (except for maybe some minor characters). He's not that powerful or skilled, above average at best, but below P'li. He doesn't have good control over fire, so if he can open a hole than P'li, who's shown excellent control over fire, could certainly make an opening

@arcus: As I said prior, I'm done debating the subject. What you're suggesting doesn't prevent Jeong Jeong from doing what i said, or Iroh from forming firewalls at a relative distance to block their attack. I still say you're limiting them though, but will leave it at that.

As for Zhao, he was not the weakest firebender. He actually whooped Zuko really well in their duel until Iroh gave his nephew some advice to overcome his weakness(which had nothing to do with firebending). Aang also used Jeong Jeong's advice to overcome Zhao's weakness, but that wasn't a firebending duel anyway. so those are special cases. P'li rarely firebended. Her skill level where she excelled was in her combustion bending. However, I still agree that she should be able to make an opening in Jeong Jeong's flamewall. I think she's at least skilled enough to do that.

@storm_calling:

If you feel that my recognizing that Jeong Jeong is a highly skilled firebender who could easily have his own unique moves, ok

Iroh just told Zuko to remember basic firebending. A weakened, injured Zuko later beat Zhao at the North Pole