@thetruebarryallen:I guess you didn't get the notification either, (damn CV and their bugs, this wouldn't be the first time this happened) anyways sorry for the late reply.
Looks like someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed, haha.
Not really,
Roddy, I'm not upset. You also claim you haven't directly insulted me and that's a straight up lie. I'm not here to discuss that though; I'm here to discuss Sue's resistance to telepathy.
The tone in your last few post say otherwise. Saying you're being pretentious is not a direct insult, more so a blunt critique than anything. The problem with some of you young users is you don't take criticism very well. You can dish it but you can't take it. So once again stop playing the victim role as if I gave you the verbal beat down of your life. Also I wasn't the one that got off topic with the bs about me being a Storm fan.
I'm actually confused at what you're talking about, I seriously am. You're doing the same thing you're accusing me of doing (calling my arguments false & telling me I don't have proper counters) which is incredibly hypocritical. I'm not ignoring statements made in scans; I'm debating your interpretation of statements and what you're concluding from those statements, lastly. There's no need to resort to foul language here, come now.
You're confusing yourself now and pot is calling the kettle black. You called my argument false first and claimed I was misinterpreting scans, when that's all you have been doing for two pages now. You haven't debunk or counter my post either. And yes you did ignore the statements within the scan I posted to cater to your rants on Sue's shield not being fully insulated. "smart ass" is foul language? You need to stop wearing your heart on your sleeves bro.
What don't you believe? You accuse me of ignoring what's happening in the scans and then you go and ignore whats in the scans. Here's what has been shown in the scans thus far:
> Cable & Sue were using their powers (Telekinesis & Force Fields respectively) to shield themselves from the psionic hurricane & the debris that was flying about. Cable even says "Mrs. Richards! Susan, listen to me! We are in the eye of a psionic hurricane. I don't know how much longer -- even between my telekinesis and your invisible shields -- we can hold out here.". Cable doesn't use telepathy to say that to Sue nor is Sue affected by the psionic hurricane. Her fields are blocking a psionic force; as was the original argument IIRC.
You don't have to try and explain what's going on in the scans. I've already explained them over 5 times already even prior to posting them. So don't try and act like you know the issue like the back of your hand now. I don't believe you read this issue of Cable or at least have as much an understanding of it as you're making it seem. First you claimed Cable never used his telepathy to communicate with Sue when he clearly did. Next you claim Sue's shields were not insulated, despite the fact that they were in the middle of a psionic hurricane.Then you claim she was only blocking debris, I provide proof but you ignore it.
So the point that I made; which was that Sue and Cable were using their powers combined to block the debris and such flying around from the psionic hurricane still stands. The other statement I made about Cable not speaking to Sue via telepathy also stands; he's very clearly using his mouth to form these words.
No they don't because you were wrong about all of that, see above. Also the scan you're referring to wasn't even the scan I was referencing. It was this one.
Sue had her shield up between them because they were about to fight; the narration even states that Cable was acting instinctively and attacked Apocalypse and they fight for two pages. Apocalypse then begins talking about how he knows of a way they can separate Franklin & Onslaught so Sue puts an end to their fighting by creating a field between the two of them and telling Cable that sometimes you need to put aside your differences and work together for a common goal.
It would also appear that Apocalypse is resisting the Psionic Hurricane (possibly using his own powers) because he remains unaffected in this. The artist drew Sue's field when she appeared between them and then we don't see the drawing in the pages after that. To me, that's an indication that she didn't have her field up any longer, perhaps the combined might of Cable & Apocalypse was enough that she didn't need to waste any of her own powers to shield herself.
Except for the fact that we don't see the shield only that statement made by Sue that she created one between them.
This whole argument is purely speculation because it's not explicitly stated that she has her field up or not. I disagree with you and you clearly disagree with me. Sometimes it's okay to agree to disagree.
I can agree to disagree. However I still don't see why Sue would just randomly drop her personal shielding in the middle of a psionic hurricane.
Once again; we can't see the entire field. We can't deduce that it's an entire dome when we can't see all around it. I also understand that she doesn't always have to generate a wall; it's just one of the most common moves that she makes when two of her friends/allies begin conflict with one another. I drew (if you could call it that) a rendition on Microsoft Paint of what we see; we don't see a full bubble around them. If we did then I'd be inclined to agree with you. Once again you saying that it's a full dome is pure speculation on your part; just as much as me saying it's only half of a dome (from what we can see) is speculation on my part.
We see 25% (or a 90 degree angle) of Sue's dome in that small panel but the view from over head depicts this is a part of a whole. The shield, once again envelops the three and then some. There is more evidence to support it being a dome shape than a wall honestly. That's why I say this is reaching. Besides Sue's walls are typically generated like this.
Completely different illustration than what we see in X-4
We can once again; agree to disagree.
If we must.
How am I being bias? We're not even talking about the fight here; we're talking about Sue's ability to block Psionic Attacks & Telepathy. This is only my 2nd or 3rd time arguing in an Invisible Woman thread and the last time I was in one I was talking about how Mirror Master would wreck her. You calling me bias seems completely out of the blue, tbh. I guess we can just continue to agree to disagree though. I was looking for a fun discussion but I guess I've been looking in the wrong places. Good luck with all of your future endeavors on this site and enjoy your summer.
You're argument is what I called bias, but you did present some bias behavior throughout your posts. You ignored a lot of what I presented and called my argument false without even reading the scans. Despite being proved wrong about most of your counters, you were adamant on stance. And it's quite clear you feel some type of way about Storm fans from your most recent post. I don't believe you were looking for a "fun discussion" you thought you would come in a put the "storm fans in their place with some quick wit" when honestly it was a failure from beginning to end. You ran into the wrong fan this time.
That's actually wrong; Franklin was reading her mind when her field was down w/o needing a beam:
In Sue's thought bubble we see that she talks about how Franklin will never realize her invisible field is gone and in Franklin's bubble we see him talking about how easily her can read her thoughts now that the shield is down.
Reading minds and manipulating them are two different application of telepathy. And it's quite clear in the third panel, that Franklin had to shoot a beam from his eyes to do latter. So this point was moot.
Franklin hit Sue with the beam only after using telepathy on her; something he hadn't been able to do while her field was up. The Jean showing also wasn't a beam; she was using telekinesis; which isn't shown as beams to my knowledge:
Jean always emits psionic energy when using her telekinesis.
Jean is even amazed that Sue was able to sneak up on her; saying that if she was a human her telepathy would've sensed her. Of course the real reason that Jean was unable to sense her was because Sue had her shields up; shown when Jeans TK also has no effect.
Jean did not have her telepathy at this time, nice try though. It was revealed shortly after this in X-factor, that she lost it while incubating in a psionic cocoon in the Jamaican Bay. That's why she couldn't read Sue's mind. She didn't gain it back until her fight with Psynapse on the astral plane. So this is not an example of Sue blocking Jean telepathy but rather her telekinesis. And I'm the one misinterpreting scans.
@roddy010: I am not going to post for a while as I feel like we are just going round in circles. My last reply to Butterflykyss sums up what I think.
But that scan was to show how she couldn't affect the outside of an inferior force field. She had to attack from the inside. It's not about how strong it is (she was breaking free), it was about how a weaker force field was able sever her connection from the outside atmosphere, therefore Sue (who has much more powerful force fields) should be able to do the same thing.
Another late reply but I had to address this as well. This PIS moment doesn't support Storm's connection being severed from the outside. In The Aladdin Effect, A.I.M. created a powerful barrier around the small town of Venture Ridge, Wyoming that cut it off from the rest of Earth. Storm (along with a few other heroes) was trapped inside and tried to breach the shield with her powers and created a massive lightning bolt as well as condition that were never there before. In order for her to accomplish this she would have to warp weather patterns for miles. She's also used her powers inside of Magneto's shield when she attacked him with a blizzard. As well as breach Fitzroy's shielding of his base by unleashing nature's full fury and has also used her powers within Jean's shields. I don't believe A.I.M. can severe her psionic connection to weather.
Storm. She can control the air inside sue's body. She can basically distract her with lightning and assuming Sue blocks it, she can control the air inside her body or do that pressure thing with the ears to break her concentration. Sue is very powerful but it usually takes her some time to use her powers effectively and that gives storm a huge advantage.
@storm_calling: Thank you and very true indeed. TK is always depicted as just another form of energy, so Sue blocking it is plausible. However we have four (possibly five) instances of other forms of psionics bypassing her shields, supporting that certain attacks can get through. It was hinted that Crystal could possibly manipulate the air inside her shield in FF #332, even though this was a dream by Human Torch. Still though, I believe Steve Englehart hinted that this tactic wold be effective against Sue.
@storm_calling: Thank you and very true indeed. TK is always depicted as just another form of energy, so Sue blocking it is plausible. However we have four (possibly five) instances of other forms of psionics bypassing her shields, supporting that certain attacks can get through. It was hinted that Crystal could possibly manipulate the air inside her shield in FF #332, even though this was a dream by Human Torch. Still though, I believe Steve Englehart hinted that this tactic wold be effective against Sue.
That can't be used as evidence. It was a dream. If I used a dream, of say Iceman, for something bad happening to Storm you guys would discredit it.
Also if you read it it says she breathes through the skin of the force filed. Which means that it is usually not air-tight, which would explain Storm using her powers in the field when they teamed up. There was a big group in there, so she wouldn't make it air tight. Therefore Storm was able to use her powers. Sue is not stupid so she will make it air tight in the battle against a person who she knows the powers of
Also if this is considered PIS and a writer not knowing Storm.
Why is the Emma thing with Sue not considered the same? Especially when Sue has blocked telepathy in the past, and most fans ignore it. If I remember correctly, even Storm had some bad showings that made no sense in that same book. You can't have it both ways.
@storm_calling: Thank you and very true indeed. TK is always depicted as just another form of energy, so Sue blocking it is plausible. However we have four (possibly five) instances of other forms of psionics bypassing her shields, supporting that certain attacks can get through. It was hinted that Crystal could possibly manipulate the air inside her shield in FF #332, even though this was a dream by Human Torch. Still though, I believe Steve Englehart hinted that this tactic wold be effective against Sue.
That can't be used as evidence. It was a dream. If I used a dream, of say Iceman, for something bad happening to Storm you guys would discredit it.
Also if you read it it says she breathes through the skin of the force filed. Which means that it is usually not air-tight, which would explain Storm using her powers in the field when they teamed up. There was a big group in there, so she wouldn't make it air tight. Therefore Storm was able to use her powers. Sue is not stupid so she will make it air tight in the battle against a person who she knows the powers of
It being a dream doesn't discredit the fact that it's still a hypothetical situation that could actually happen. It is within Crystal's powerset to pull something like this off (in a real fight) so that's why the Author added it to this fight. It implies that someone could do this to Sue if they have a means to. Also If Iceman defeated Storm in a dream and it was a reasonable defeat. I'd be willing to accept that this is a way for him to win if it's within his powerset.
Making her shield air tight would limit her breathing and she will have to drop her shield for a breath much like she did against Franklin. You have no proof that Sue allowed Storm to use her powers in that instance.
Why is the Emma thing with Sue not considered the same? Especially when Sue has blocked telepathy in the past, and most fans ignore it. If I remember correctly, even Storm had some bad showings that made no sense in that same book. You can't have it both ways.
It's PIS because Bendis completely ignored Storm's powerset for the sake of story progression. This wasn't the case in the X-4 scan I posted. Emma effecting Sue had little impact on the story so it was not PIS. Please give us examples some example of Sue blocking out other telepaths. Because I've only seen this hinted at during her fight with Franklin, who we see has to shoot a beam of psionic energy from his eyes in order to effect her. While we have other telepaths bypassing her shields with no problem.
Also if you read it it says she breathes through the skin of the force filed. Which means that it is usually not air-tight, which would explain Storm using her powers in the field when they teamed up. There was a big group in there, so she wouldn't make it air tight. Therefore Storm was able to use her powers. Sue is not stupid so she will make it air tight in the battle against a person who she knows the powers of
That's not what I took out of Cystal saying that. She was describing how Sue would still need to breath through her field if she hoped to keep the two separate. Sue has blocked/contained Johnny's flames on a number of occasions, so heating up the air around her bubble wouldn't have done anything to the air inside of it. Crystal heated up the air inside of her bubble and forced her to drop out of it so she could get fresh air. Cystal never stated she was heating up the air around the room or around the bubble when she was doing it. This was why she was describing how Sue isn't divorced from the physical, even in her force field. Since those same elements Crystal can manipulate exist within the field as well.
Also, why do you think Sue allowing a certain form of matter to pass through her field has anything to do with her intercepting a psi link? It doesn't. She's spoken through her field while she's blocked Jean's telekinesis, as well as when she was blocking onslaught's psionic hurricane. She shouldn't have to make her field air tight or sound proof in order to be able to keep out Storm, Songbird or Crystal. They should automatically be blocked from manipulating anything from within her field if their connection to their elements/energy cannot get through.
@roddy010: It being a dream actually does discredit it, it is not canon. While the Storm in a force field is canon. And while making it air tight will have a limit to the air, this battle will definitely be a short one so it doesn't matter. If you take the Crystal battle, then you also see that Sue makes her force field breathable. Which means air is going in and out, which Storm can control. Making it air-tight stops this.
And I could also claim that X-4 thing was the writer not knowing enough about Sue. That book was a mess.
And we've been going around in circles. I am tired of it.
Songbird controls sound. Sound was passing through the force field. Songbird powers could control the sound that was passing through. It being Soundproof stops that.
Crystal controls air. Air was passing through force field. Crystal controls the air passing through the force field. Making it air-tight stops that.
The characters explain it themselves. Read it again.
Songbird controls sound. Sound was passing through the force field. Songbird powers could control the sound that was passing through. It being Soundproof stops that.
Crystal controls air. Air was passing through force field. Crystal controls the air passing through the force field. Making it air-tight stops that.
The characters explain it themselves. Read it again.
None of that has anything to do with Jean.
How about you read it again? Because it's obvious you didn't read anything I said, or purposely ignored it.
@crimz: Can you give other examples of Sue blocking out telepathy besides the Franklin instance? Also the dream took place in 616 so technically it is canon, it just didn't physically happen. And it's not like Crystal or Sue displayed any type of powers besides their normal powerset. I believe this was a scenario type issue so to speak.
Even if Sue can block telepathy (which I haven't seen any scans to support this), telepathy doesn't work like Storm's powers have and Storm has demonstrated her powers can work across her shield.
It seems that the only scenario most people are looking at is weather or not Storm can bypass her shield via air, heat or what not. However, it is highly unlikely that in a fight Sue would sit herself in a bubble and wait for Storm to try and break it. Her shields are more than capable or blocking attacks and Sue is mobile. Storm would probably open with a lighting strike, Sue would block it, and then take her down with a bubble or force blast, etc. Storm has no defense of blocking her attacks, and they are instant and invisible.
I think Sue got this. Her force fields are shown to be capable of blocking many powerful attacks and can also be created from the inside that she can increase its size that'll blow Storm up. She can also use her force field to make Storm unable to breathe. Yeah Sue got this
I'm thinking sue, assuming her fields will keep out whatever force storm uses to manipulate weather. However if her manipulation gets through those fields, sue gets stomped. So basically, to me
@don_sevour: Its like you said, the fields protect Sue and at the same time she can create a force field inside Storm as Storm tries to take down her force field
@kasya: Actually it can b/c Sue can also turn her vision invisible which will render her blind. Also she's still claustrophobic, so Sue can trap her in a box shaped force field
@fairygirl98: you can't make anyone blind who can see the world as energy.
Storm can blend of light with the help of mist or fog, so how is IW going to see her. Storm tanks up the air pressure and sooner or later Sue will have to come out. She EMP HER TO DEATH
@kasya: Yay, my first debate! :D But she needs to see the energy though. So yeah she can make her blind. And also, Sue can just turn the fog or mist invisible. Storm was shown to need assistance in using her powers inside her force field by Sue made a hole for her to electrocute Red Hulk , so she ain't gotta worry about that. Sue can also use her force fields to take oxygen away from her as well by making a bubble around her head and use her fear as an advantage, and also can create a force field inside any part of her body and expand it that'll blow it up. I really don't see how Storm got this
@fairygirl98: Sue needs to imagine which needs concentration to turn anything else invisble, and I don't think she can turn Storm mist invisble because she's in full control. Storm will know every move she makes she can see everything down to the human nervous system. Sue shield is not cutting Storm off from scrambling the electricity in her brain.
@kasya: It doesn't take that much concentration for her to be and turn anything invisible unless if its too enormous for her. And I think I saw somewhere of her turning a whole island invisible, so yeah she can do that. Storm is only in full control of creating and manipulating the mist, not when Sue interferes so yeah she can. Also Storm can see all that through her eyes which she will need but she won't be able to if she's blind. And can you explain more on that last sentence, I'm not quite understanding in what you mean? :/
@fairygirl98: first of all Storm freezes the area to sub zero remember Sue is still a human. Storm sends a EMP to the brain gives her a massive seizure that could kill her. Even if Sue but a force field on Storm she does not cut Storm off from her powers and putting a force field on Storm makes it even worst.
@kasya: Sue also can create a force field around herself which won't make her be affected by Storm's ice-age thing and neither will her EMP also, don't forget she needed Sue to make a hole for her to use her powers on Red Hulk. And I don't mean she put a force field like around her in the outside, I meant put a force field in the inside which she won't be able to use her powers b/c like say if a force field is in her lungs, she will be unable to breathe that she can't be able to use her powers, and Sue will just expand its size which will blow her up, or can just shape it into a deadly shape that will injure her insides severely.
@fairygirl98: That was just for a lightning bolt she's not blocking actual manipulation by Storm.Storm would destroy her morals off.Storm keeps freezing her shield to sub-zero temperatures like I said. Or put a Vortex over her to make it to where she can't get air. And honey if Storm wanted to send a EMP to the head Sue shields ain't stopping her.Storm could have did what she did to Sinister which would kill Sue since she's a normal human.Sue can't cut off Storm powers it would be like trying to turn off nature itself.
@kasya: Either way though, Storm can't break through her shield and can't work her powers inside it. Storm's ice age temperature wouldn't work on her shield like how Johnny's Super Nova protected her and her team. Her vortex wouldn't work either since she'll have her shield up. And um boo, Storm's EMP isn't going through her shield just b/c it shut off a starship. Sue blocked off stuff like that before like Psi-lord's telepathy. And what did Storm do to Sinister? And I don't mean cut off Storm's powers, more like prevent her to use them by making a force field inside her which will do something to her insides that she won't be able to fight.
@fairygirl98: First she managed to send a EMP to Clor brain. IW won't survive a EMP to the brain. Storm manipulated the electricity in Sinister head that gave him a massive Seizure thanks to his genetic mutation.He was able to survive but most humans would have die. And the vortex was for Sue not to get anymore air throught her shield. And just because she blocked off PSI-Lord does not mean it would be the same with storm. And whats Sue fastest reaction time like time I check Storm trumps her on that and knows whats she about to do.
@kasya: No, her force shields already has air if she wants it to. Back then, Crystal had to use her powers inside Sue's shield to make her unable to breathe and Sue has improved her shields to not be attacked inside, so there's no way Storm's vortex will be able to make her not get any air when she's inside her shield. Though Sue can make a bubble around Storm's head that contains no oxygen that'll make her unable to breathe. Storm's EMP isn't any different than Psi-Lord's telepathy b/c they are both psionic based on thinking and Sue is capable of blocking off things like that and Jean Grey's telekinesis. And I told you, Sue will already have her shield up and her force fields are shown to make shockwaves which are capable of hurting some like Titania. And don't get me started on how she is when she gets angry. There still an echo of Malice that's still lurking in her mind that will take control over her whenever she looses it that makes her use her powers in a very powerful degree that she chooses not to that not even Storm will be able to take. Sue can just rip her to shreds if she wants to
@fairygirl98: you can't make anyone blind who can see the world as energy.
Storm can blend of light with the help of mist or fog, so how is IW going to see her. Storm tanks up the air pressure and sooner or later Sue will have to come out. She EMP HER TO DEATH
You make a good point there. Truth be told, this is a most difficult battle here. Either gal has a chance to win. They might be fairly evenly matched. Though Sue is a favorite of mine, I cannot help but recall how Crystal defeated her back in Fantastic Four #332 and Storm would appear to be even more powerful than Crystal. Yes, Sue's powers might be better than when she lost the catfight to Crystal. Hence, it is hard to decide who has the edge here. As for the catfight in Fantastic Four #332 not counting, since it took place in a dream, I believe such a thesis is flawed. Dream or real, the situation presented therein is still valid from my point of view.
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