Imperial guard vs Galactic Empire

Bump.

Imperial Guard

@army2442:

do the generals fight?

Vader solos lol

@t_hench: If the generals fight vader aint soloing...

@t_hench:

Bump.

generals participate in the fight.

@wut: LOL

Anyways, thanks to Warhounds, the IG is going to stomp pretty hard. The Empire lacks almost anything at this level that is going to hurt a Waround through its voidshields, but a Warhound (Depending on the loadout) is going to decimate whatever field it is put in, but as always, I shall give this a more in-depth look because, why not?

Infantry: Personally, as far as Imperium goes, the Valhallan Ice Warriors would have been a better choice for the Imperial Guard as they are arctic warfare specialist. So normal Stormtroopers, not Vaders Fist/501st, versus the Death Korps of Krieg. Death Korps have a massive morale advantage as they are brave to the point of suicidal and are very... morbid. They have a soldier who has the job of walking around the battlefield, shooting injured Death Korps guardsmen and taking their organs, so they can be used on other Guardsmen who have higher odds of survival. They don't just fight in the deadliest battles, they volunteer for them, and they love a good war of attrition.

Basic equipment is pretty similar. Both wear armor that is very good against ballistic weaponry, both have weaponry with high 'ammo' per cartridge. In terms of lasgun vs blaster, they are pretty equal. Blasters appear to fire faster, but Lasguns do have the option to go full-auto making it equal. Lasguns do more damage to flesh then blasters do, and they travel faster. Since this is Stormtroopers who are given cheap blasters, I would be inclined to believe the Lasgun takes the superiority for its superior accuracy.

As for training, a Death korps Kriegman is going to be better trained and disciplined then normal stormtroopers. They are mostly clones, born on a planet that is a nuclear wasteland and into a military society. The Death World of Krieg gives fifty million troops to the Imperial Guard every year. They are trained in that said planet where the main objective is to weed out the weak, the weak tend to die. They are forced to train in the nuclear wasteland of their homes and only those that survive this are allowed to serve. Most of them don't have names but instead refer to themselves in serial numbers to make it easier to tally their deaths. Couple this with the numerous battles against the enemies of the Imperium, and you have a very disciplined fighting force. The largest weakness of the Krieg is that their military officers love serving on the front lines.

Edge: Death Korps of Krieg - 7/10

Elite Infantry: Oh my lord Army, I think you have massively underestimated just how strong Dark Troopers are. I would feel comfortable putting them up against Space Marines, but against Imperial Storm Troopers? Said Storm Troopers had already been nerfed as they don't have their hellguns and instead have lasguns, they aren't allowed to have specialist weaponry against Dark Troopers who are nearly 9 feet tall, have, essentially, miniguns and rockets to boot. 130,000 of them? That is... ridiculous.

Edge: Dark Trooper - 10/10

Specialist Infantry: Space Marines vs Force Users, ah, how that debate has been going on for eternity. Salamanders are not known for their impressive hand to hand combat, but as Space Marines, they are still going to be good. Before anyone says Lightsaber cuts through power sword, no they don't. Power Swords are covered in a shield just as Lightsabers are. The blade, itself, is only there to add weight behind the blow, the energy shield is what does the damage when the Power Sword hits. Even if the blade was melted and gone, the energy shield would still cover it as if the metal sword was still there.

Mkay, in purely hand to hand, I would be inclined to believe the Salamanders would take it. Even if the clones used the force to amp themselves, they are not the most impressive in terms of lightsaber duelist. A Space Marine is going to be just as fast, just, if not more so, strong, have superior armor, vastly superior durability.

In normal hand to hand, I would be inclined to give a slight edge to the clones for telekinetics. Space Marines are used to dealing with it, but it does not mean it is not effective against them.

In the ranged department, Salamanders take it with their bolters. The clones better not try to hit bolter rounds with their lightsabers and dodging has challenges of its own, but they can use the force to out right block it if they have the necessary skills (Do they have Force Shield?)

Anyways, I give the Salamanders a slight edge thanks to their superiority in ranged combat which allows them to better participate and control the battlefield as a whole.

Edge: Salamander - 5.5/10

Light Vehicles: Razorback vs AT-ST. Why the Imperial Guard have Razorbacks? No idea. Those are a Space Marine vehicle, maybe they are for the Salamanders? The most common loadout for Razorbacks are twin-linked heavy bolters for anti-infantry and twin-linked Lascannons for anti-armor. I can tell you right now that a Razorback with twin lascannons is going to pincushin an AT-ST.

As for mobility, I give it to the AT-ST for being a walker and so better able to traverse terrain. AT-ST also wins the speed competition as they go 90 km/p while the Razorback goes 55-70 km/p.

When comparing armor, the Razorback has vastly superior armor and is going to be able to tank hits a lot better. As it is a troop transport compared to a scouting walker, this makes sense.

Weaponry, I have always like the AT-STs concussive grenade launcher, but the Razorback, be it twin lascannons or heavy bolters (punching through 8 inches of steel is easy for such a weapon) is going to dominate.

While the AT-ST is the superior 'scout' vechile, the Razorback will kill an AT-ST if they meet, they outnumber the AT-ST and are going to be better at direct combat and reinforcing the infantry during battles as well as providing covering fire.

Edge: Razorback - 8/10

Heavy Armor: Whoa, whoa... hold the phone. Why in the world does the Imperial Guard have Tau tanks? This is the Imperial Guard... they should have Leman Russ tanks here... not.... Hammerheads. Uhhh.... Uhhh.... Uhhh.... Uhhhh... I'ma just leave this blank.... as... I.... huh. Razorbacks I could take because of the Salamanders, but.... Hammerheads?

Edge: TBD

Air-Power: Imperium takes this. Tie-Fighters go 1,200 km/h in the atmosphere. They are lightly armored. Thunderbolts go 2,200 km/h in atmosphere, have superior armor, and weaponry as they are sporting two lascannons, but also have autocannons, hellstrike missles, and bombs for anti-ground warfare (This is standard equipment). The Imperium is going to easily dominate the skies with far superior fighters.

Edge: Thunderbolt - 10/10

Super Heavies: Massive spite match here. AT-AT (22ish meters) while larger then Warhounds (14ish meters) do not have the weaponry to pose a threat or challenge a Warhound. A common warhound, which I assume these are, has a plasma blastgun and a vulcan megablaster. The vulcan megablaster is an anti-infantry and light tank weapon, but the big monster is the plasma blastgun. The Plasma Blastgun can fire off a superheated ball of plasma that is going to feel like you just got hit by a mini-sun or it is going to fire numerous smaller balls to take out infantry.

The Plasma Blastgun is going to annihilate whatever it hits. On the flip side, the Warhound has Void Shields which are going to be neigh impossible for a AT-AT to get through. A Void Shield works by sending whatever hit it to another dimension.

Edge: Warhound - 10/10

Generals: Pre-Heresy Horus vs Darth Vader. This is one of those fights I wouldn't touch with a thousand foot pool, I will tell you that Horus has a superior track record when it comes to military exploits. He has conquered far more planets, fought against various foes from other humans to monstrous aliens, and is one of the greatest generals of the Great Crusade with the largest winning streak and the largest amount of victories under his belt. Why is he here commanding Salamanders? No idea.

Edge: Not touching this.

Overall: Sooooo normally, I would say this is pretty cut and dry, as the Imperium takes almost all the categories, but that is... a lot.... of Dark Troopers.. I mean... really? There was never nearly that many Dark Troopers. So... if I were to consider what would happen, it would be a grueling war with Star Wars relying heavily on their Dark Troopers, but I don't know how long they would hold up as Star Wars has nothing that can truly threaten a Warhound, their air power is going to be annihilated by the Thunderbolts... Hmmmmmm.... Due to the Warhound and Air Superiority, I believe the Dark Troopers would eventually fall, but they are going to make the Imperium pay for it in guardsmen and stormtrooper blood, but if there Krieg are willing to pay in anything, it is blood.

Victory: Imperial Guard 8/10

Ok replace the titans with 10 imperial knights,

replace the hammerheads with leman man Russ tanks, idk what I was thinking but I thought hammerheads were imperial.

@wut: LOL!!! <---implies i wasn't serious ;)

It's funny, the votes are now equal, 42% for each.

I'm sure this Warhammer Thread will be doomed like all the other ones, and we'll start talking about Space Tomb Kings and the like.

@fu-dog007: what u mean? XD

@killerwasp: Remember, last thread we were in (the 'Nids vs. Xenos, Things, and the Flood i think) we completely got off topic, and started talking about Blizzard and GW's sketchy relationship, and then about Dakka and then Orks, then we started talking about races we'd like to play as.

It's an endless, vicious AWESOME cycle lol

@fu-dog007: You mean and endless awesome cycle?

@t_hench: I have been waiting to use that video all day :D

@fu-dog007: lol Hey can't blame us we enjoy the series for all. Rather have that then no talking at all XD

@killerwasp:

That is true, it's quite rare that i meet anyone else with Warhammer knowledge such as i, and it warms my heart that i see Warhammer Threads being made ;)

Conversation is better than none

Anyways, I'm also a contributor to the cycle, so i can't say much lol

@fu-dog007: well i've made some idk if u commented on it though but here are some more they have been made plenty of times by other people, but still

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/the-angry-marines-vs-street-fighters-1589443/

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/chaos-champions-vs-dc-and-marvel-4-vs-4-1538896/

http://www.comicvine.com/forums/battles-7/typhus-and-lucius-with-daemon-allies-vs-hulks-1540032/

These are just a few that don't get noticed by a lot, not that i'm asking for any opinions here or per say on this thread, but they are out there just gotta look.

Also,

I want to change the space Marines from salamanders to the sons of horus chapter and the empires stormtroopers are changed to 501st troopers.

Mkay, since it has been updated:

Heavy Armor: A5-RX goes 13-16 MGLT which, at first, looked super fast! Then... when I did the math... it is 57.6 kp/h. Not quite as fast as I thought it was, but still pretty fast for a tank. The Leman Russ goes 21 - 35 kp/h, so t he A5-RX does move faster, but that is understandable as it is more akin to a recon tank then an assault or MBT tank. I don't like the way the put the A5-RX weaponry on with repeating blasters in the front, a missile launcher on the top, but they put their beam cannon on the back facing back... Hm, not a fan of that design.

I don't know the armor of the A5-RX, but the Leman Russ has some serious armor ranging from 100mm (Gun mantle), 150mm (hull), 200mm (turret). It is slow, but very heavily armored and has some good feats for its armor tanking damage, so due to lack of specs on the A5-RX, I give the armor advantage to the Russ.

Armament... I have always seen repeater blasters as more anti-infantry weaponry. So, again, two repeater blasters in front, a six-shot missile launcher on top and a beam cannon at the rear. The Leman Russ has a 120mm smoothbore cannon, the rounds have stablizers to improve accuracy, two sponson heavy bolters, and, usually, a hull-mounted lascannon.The Leman Russ does have different type of ammo, the most relevant being High Explosive, for infantry and light armor, and armor piercing for other heavy armor.

In a straight up slug fest, I would favor the Leman Russ. Its main cannon and lascannon will out range the repeating blasters, and while I like the missile launchers, I have no idea on how powerful they are. That said, the A5-RX tank is faster and so able to get around the battlefields easier and so provide better support to their infantry, but the Leman Russ is going to be better at cuasing damage and pushing the line which is what you want your tanks to do.

Edge: Leman Russ - 7.5/10

Super Heavies: Knights vs AT-ATs... hmm... Could a knight take down an AT-AT? With the right weapons. Knight Errants could thanks to their Thermal Cannon (Melta), but it is very short ranged. They do have shields, but I believe they are Ion Shields and not Void Shields. Void shields are much, much better. AT-AT is going to have more range, its weaponry should be strong enough to take down a Knight (I only say this as some yields in 40k can get pretty wanky)... hmmm.

Fairly close. The At-ATs are going to make a very large target of themselves as they will be a prime target for the Thunderbolts while Knights, which are much smaller, aren't going to attract as much attention, they still will but just not as much. I don't see either playing a huge role as with as many Dark Troopers as there is, the knights are going to be facing serious missile spam, and the At-AT is going to get bombarded by Thunderbolts and their payloads.

I favor the At-ATs slightly more because of their superior range and ability to safely carry troops while I don't see 10 knights making that large of a dent in 130,000 Dark Troopers.

Edge: At-AT - 6/10

Right, right... Forgot -

Overall: Dark Troopers are going to be a real pain. A real... real... real... real...real... real... real... real... real... real pain. The battle is going to turn into a battle of attrition where the Imperium is going to have to rely on its superior air-power to force the Empire to attack them and try to turn it into a battle of attrition using trenches and other methods the Krieg love to employ. Hmmmm, this battle should be fairly close and intense. If they use their vehicles intelligently, they will be a large boon for the Imperium, but Dark Troopers are more then capable of putting them down when they gather and mass their firepower.

I think this comes down to, "Can the Krieg hold the line against the Dark Troopers!" If they can hold the line, they can pull out a win thanks to massed firepower, if they can't then the Dark Troopers can push through and destroy whatever airfield they are using for their Thunderbolts and without those Thunderbolts... Yea.

Empire Victory 5.5/10

@wut: Just one thing Wut, Stormtroopers don't have cheap blasters by any stretch. Unless again if you're comparing it to the opposing weaponry.

@wolfrazer: Empire Stormtroopers are given low-quality blasters. That is how they try to explain the infamous inaccuracy (Which again, I don't see as true). I never said it effects the power, fire rate, or magazine size, just the accuracy. I am sure it is superior to civilian issued weaponry, but lasguns are very accurate which is going to be an edge in their favor.

@wut: The E-11 isn't inaccurate, they are only inaccurate because of main character plot armor. Plus even then, if you recall there were circumstances around them not being able to hit the main characters(least during the movies), when that was taken off(Battle of Endor) 2 of the main characters were shot accurately...which some people forget.

Stormtroopers were given the most powerful equipment available. It wouldn't make sense for the Empire to give their most elite ground troops worthless equipment.

@wolfrazer: "You can't stay on target with these things! You miss your first shot, and you're lying on the ground with a hole blasted through your armor." about the E-11 blaster in Jedi Academy 2.

Personally, I chalk their movie inaccuracy to two things: Vader wanted them alive, so they aren't going to shoot to kill, and two they were meant to get away in order to carry the death star plans out and lead the Empire to the rebel hideout in the first movie.

But, there is reference, in game, of E-11 being inaccurate with the carbine version being superior, and the better choice.

@wut: Yeah except the movies and other showings, aren't accurate to that one statement. Besides that was one Stormtrooper who for all we know could have just been a poor shot and couldn't maintain his blaster, elsewhere it shows Stormtroopers being able to aim and blast their targets just fine.

Also you're correct on that, also in ESB they were allowed to get away so Vader could capture Han and co to get Luke.

@wolfrazer: What other showings? I said I, personally, chalk up their inaccuracy to those reasons, but what I personally consider something doesn't make it so.

If we look at it logically, A. Main Characters in Star Wars are surrounded by an invisible forcefield, B. The E-11 has a high recoil which causes inaccuracy when firing from the hip, or C. The Stormtroopers are lousy shots.

We know it isn't C as Obi-Wan talks about only Stormtroopers being so precise. We know it could be B. We know it is highly unlikely to be A unless we try and use the 'Force' as the invisible all mighty forcefield around them. Odds favor option B.

The fact that they have missed so often, and it has been referenced in another source implies some doubt on the E-11. The Lasgun does not have this doubt. Despite being considered a flashlight, it is a very accurate flashlight. So, yes, the E-11 has some bad accuracy showing which allows anyone to cast doubt on it.

Implying the Empire gives Stormtroopers the best of everything is baseless as the E-11 was a common blaster across the galaxy which means it is cheap. If you are trying to arm billions, probably more given the scale of the Empire, of soldiers, a cheap functioning rifle is preferable to a super elite expense weapon simply due to cost efficiency.

@wut: Was speaking of accuracy, the E-11 isn't inaccurate in other showings when they aren't dealing with main characters. Which people should realize by now, that's pretty much a staple for all movies with good guys in firefights against bad guys, nothing new really.

Actually the E-11 was sold exclusively to the GE during the GCW, it wasn't a regular common blaster.

@wolfrazer: Do you happen to have the quote for the E-11 being sold exclusively to the Empire?

What other showings? I know you are not talking about Endor, are you talking about Hoth because I don't remember any incredible feats of accuracy in that battle, or the attack on the corvette in the first movie?

@wut: Sure.

Although the original E-11 was sold exclusively to Imperial military forces during the GCW, several variants on the successful rifle were also produced.

- Taken from New Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology

I'm actually talking about EU sources, comics really.

@wolfrazer: Thank you, so the other variants are what the others used. Makes sense.

Ah, I see, I thought we were talking about the movies in which they never show any feats of accuracy that offset the constant showing of inaccuracy (Thank god Star Wars canon policy doesn't exist anymore).

I can't think of any comic scans I have ever seen that puts them as incredibly accurate either. They have way better showings in EU, but I have yet to see anything that would imply an E-11 is as accurate as the clone DC-15. (Honestly, they should have stuck with the DC-15S)

@wut: Well they did on Endor via blasting R2 and wounding Leia(amusing enough that R2 is able to go through all 6 movies without getting shot by a ground troop and a Stormtrooper does it. :P).

But yeah, there are some comic scans that show some good accuracy. Although I'm saving them all for a CaV I plan on doing using Stormtroopers, so gonna have to wait I'm afraid.

@wolfrazer: R2 was always good at blaster dodging but taking in the comic relief that was the B1s, I am not surprised he wasn't hit by them. I think he added that in on Endor because someone pointed out that the Stormtroopers kept missing, so he let them hit Leia.... sexism! Should have let Solo get hit.

Make sure you tag me in the CaV you do, I would like to see and read them.

Bump.

Bump.

Imperial Guard.

imperial guard

Bump, reminder I switched out the titans for grey knights.

IG do have a Hammerhead tank............however its a forge world pattern tank with a gun that should be mounted on a Titan lol.

@strider92: Like the shadowsword?

Bloody forge world! You are so lucky you make amazing models. If I had the money, I would play a Death Korps army.

@wut: he gave the imps gray knights thinking it'd make it easier... BUT HE WAS WRONG! XD

@killerwasp: lol I thought he switched it our for Imperial Knights, the mini-titans... but Grey Knights O.o, what in the world?

Despite being an Ork lover, that is a pretty funny picture. :D Personally, I find the Grey Knights useless in vanilla Dawn of War, it is all about Space Marine units and spamming heavy bolters and rocket launchers!

Make the Dark Troopers phase III and we have more of a battle. As is the edge goes to the Imperial Guard.

I meant imperial knights, sorry.

@killerwasp: Sad thing is, Grey Knights aren't nearly as awesome as people make them out to be. I thought each of them was a potent psyker, but it turns out there is only one psyker in the squad that channels the energy of the squad members into active "magic".

Ultramarines are the best!

Bump.

@eisenfauste: Dark Angels would rock the Ultramarines... unless... it was being written by Ward in which case the Dark Angels would declare themselves heretics and kill themselves for not being Ultramarines.

@killerwasp:

Ah, I remember the days when you could field an entire Grey Knight army of 100's of Jokaero and one Inquisitor Coteaz.

@eisenfauste:

Ultramarines are the best!

Please, there are much better units than Ultramarines.

Especially all those different Forge World Space Marines. Carcharodons? Minotaurs? Sign me up!

@fu-dog007: @wut: See the problem is the only other compelling Space Marine Chapters have now turned to Chaos. Thousand Sons, Luna Wolves, Iron Warriors, and especially the Alpha Legion.

The only loyalist chapters that come close would be the Soul Drinkers, or Salamanders.

Mary sue or not I enjoy the Ultramarines lol.

@eisenfauste: Dark Angels are loyalist.... >.> kinda. Okay... so maybe they blew up some Black Templar ships to keep a secret... and maybe they kill people to keep secrets... and maybe they make inquisitors disappear... and maybe... they are way above chapter strength and approaching legion strength because all their 'successor' chapters aren't different chapters at all but just Dark Angels with different colors.

Besides all that.... <.< Totally loyal. If you don't want to disappear, you wouldn't dare say anything.