And this isn't something that belongs in the battles forum. Read the rules. Only character battles are allowed. Things about which is better should go to other forums.
@theblackshadow: Strange to see you admit you not only liked something from Marvel, but actually loved it. Civil War made a grand political statement, while Identity Crisis made you feel like the heroes were seen as objects by the media and that a death is a publicity stunt and yet they didn't give up on one another. I felt that the characters were very real and that's where I first got a liking for Green Arrow. Watch the birdie!
Although I read both and I liked both I had a hard relating to Identity crises, while on the other hand civil war felt so real and the ending felt so real, you cant always have a happy ending. I was able to relate to each and every hero. One of the most heart breaking parts of the civil war to me was when ms marvel tried to arrested arachne ( julia carpenter "spiderwoman") in front of her daughter it showed so many emotional levels I don’t think D.C. can top that I like D.c. but dc is more of when I want to read something that’s way out there. But don’t get me wrong identity crises was good.
"Identity Crisis was incredible...I liked Civil War but its not quite on the level of Meltzer's work. "
@theblackshadow said:
"in my mind Idenitiy crisis cause it mad you feel for the characters more. Although Civil wat was one of the greatest comic books i ever read. "
All three of you have bad taste.
Both were flawed concepts (Civil War was Cap and Iron Man leading huge numbers of heroes in battle against each other over politics. Identity Crisis was a mystery where the clues didn't add up to the solution where a minor character with no criminal history outwitted Batman) with terrible characterization.
Civil War... It was more than just a comic story. It was a exploratory composition on philosophy in the superhero realm. Identity Crisis was great, especially compared to Countdown. But Civil War changed the way I looked at so many of the characters in it. Some for the better, some for the worse. I think Civil War made the Marvel Universe more realistic.
"Civil War... It was more than just a comic story. It was a exploratory composition on philosophy in the superhero realm."
Then apparently the philosophy of all the superheroes in the Marvel universe is "Getting my way is a lot more important than actually helping anybody."
@Zoom: That's just your opinion. The true philosophy was the right's of the protector's vs the rights of the protected. This kinda stuff has been going on in American politics forever, not with the same consequences, but just as dire. Think of the Civil War over Unemployment Benefits. The parallels are outstanding. True it's a little far out there. But we are on a comic website. Everything can't be perfect, but as long as we're thinking then it's cool. And not everyone thinks Iron Man is a dick, just most of us.
" @Zoom: That's just your opinion. The true philosophy was the right's of the protector's vs the rights of the protected. This kinda stuff has been going on in American politics forever, not with the same consequences, but just as dire. Think of the Civil War over Unemployment Benefits. The parallels are outstanding."
The difference is that my buddy who got laid off didn't try to kill me over it. There may have been parallels to real life events but that doesn't take away that the basic plot points of the entire story were retarded and that 90% of the characters in it acted in ways that don't make sense.
@Zoom: It makes more sense than 90% of the stories happening right now. War of the Supermen, makes sooooo much sense. Batman RIP and Return of Bruce Wayne are sooooooo logical. It's a comic book. The plot is no more or less retarded then everything else in the world of comics. It's a story that's more philosophical than most, that's the only difference. It's more about a clash of philosophical ideologies than some super villain.
" @Zoom: It makes more sense than 90% of the stories happening right now. War of the Supermen, makes sooooo much sense. Batman RIP and Return of Bruce Wayne are sooooooo logical."
You're confusing stupid situations with characters acting stupidly. You can't go to War of Supermen or Return of Bruce Wayne and say "They're not supposed to be doing that!"
@Zoom: I don't know, though I agree most of those characters acted ridiculously, I think the storyline itself was pretty enjoyable. It was interesting to see what would happen if the government decided to become involved in super heroes' lives and force them to reveal their identity. I saw it more as a new values versus old: the growing distaste for the government and the "golden age" of comic books (WWII and post WWII era). Haha the only reason why I'm defending it is because I wrote a 8 page paper about the story. It was fun to write about the contrast in attitude from Captain America's time and present.
" @Zoom: It makes more sense than 90% of the stories happening right now. War of the Supermen, makes sooooo much sense. Batman RIP and Return of Bruce Wayne are sooooooo logical."
You're confusing stupid situations with characters acting stupidly. You can't go to War of Supermen or Return of Bruce Wayne and say "They're not supposed to be doing that!" "
Right. Comic books have crazy situations all the time but how the characters react to them makes sense most of the time.
Iron Man trying to murder his best friend out of nowhere in Civil War doesn't.
@AtPhantom: I understand the thing about acting out of character. Yes, Civil War stretched character personalities a little. But not as drastically as you think. I personally think Civil War was a more reasonable and consistent story than Identity Crisis. BTW Identity Crisis is my favorite "crisis" after 52 (which technically isn't a crisis, but it's still an excellent story). Comparatively speaking, Identity Crisis, and Final Crisis had more "acting out of character" then Civil War. Jean Loring did a complete 180 during that story. Didn't keep me from enjoying the story, or made me pick it apart to the point of hating it, it was something I had to take in and sacrifice for the sake of the story as a whole.
@Night Thrasher: Civil war stretched them beyond belief. But then, so did Identity crisis. They're just as bad in that regard. Final crisis, for all its faults, didn't. For all it's convoluted plot, the characters were more or less spot on.
@AtPhantom: I don't think civil war stretched them beyond belief. Definitely Civil War stretched the characters, but still they remained the same. Tony Stark has always been a prick, not to the same extremes, but he's always been a prick. Cap has always had a bit of a nonconformist streak to him, he's told a President to "shove it" before, so that's not a complete stretch. The characters remained the same, remember Tony Stark is the same prick who destroyed every armor that used his technology, including the guards of a maximum security prison, b/c someone got killed by his tech. Cap was the one who confronted him. Civil War showed a lot of the same character traits as Armor Wars.
" @Zoom: That's just your opinion. The true philosophy was the right's of the protector's vs the rights of the protected. This kinda stuff has been going on in American politics forever, not with the same consequences, but just as dire. Think of the Civil War over Unemployment Benefits. The parallels are outstanding."
The difference is that my buddy who got laid off didn't try to kill me over it. There may have been parallels to real life events but that doesn't take away that the basic plot points of the entire story were retarded and that 90% of the characters in it acted in ways that don't make sense.
@Night Thrasher: Tony was never the kind of prick to build a negative zone prison to put away those who don't agree with him. He was never the kind of prick to hire villains to hunt and kill his former friends. To clone his friend and unleash his insane doppelganger on his friends, just because. Not to mention he then handed out the same technology he fought to keep secret to every damn newbie agent to enforce his agency. Similarly, Cap would never be the one to attack first and ask questions later. He would never fight mindlessly while endangering people he's supposed to protect, without giving a single thought about them. In fact, the whole concept of fighting to make things right is completely stupid. Is killing Iron Man gonna get the law revoked? is killing Cap gonna get the heroes in line? NO, and they should both know that. Real Captain America and Iron Man would know that.
@AtPhantom: Like I said it was a stretch. But not completely out of character. Tony didn't hunt and kill his friends on purpose. He wanted to lock them up, for breaking the law. The "evil doppelganger" wasn't supposed to be an "evil deppelganger", he was supposed to be a show of force to convince Cap that his friends were against him. That way maybe Cap would reconsider and come to his senses. The hiring villains to hunt down superheroes was a little too far IMO, but I got over it. Yes, there are holes in the story, but there are in every story in this genre. But I don't think that everyone was "completely" out of character. I think Millar took traits they both showed to have and stretched them to fit the plot. Tony has been shown to go to extremes for his agenda, Cap has as well. If you want an example of someone acting completely out of character, look at One More Day.
Definitely Identity Crisis. I really enjoyed this arc sure it had its faults, what good story doesn't? But that does not change from the fact that it was still well written and a good read. As well as leading to a stronger darker more motived Tim Drake, mad Dr. Light a threat, and had an awesome scene with Deathstroke.
@Night Thrasher: A stretch is attacking youy friend when you should be on your side. Building a concentration camp in the negative zone is un-freaking-forgivable. That's what Civil war is, stretching them beyond belief. It's not a 180 turn, it;s just playing one side of the character until it's turned into a parody of itself. Identity crisis and one more day fail for a different reason.
@AtPhantom: The whole act of civil war were fully explained to me. I felt that Tony felt he was acting in the best interests of the people, the same with Cap. I think what's bothering you most about the story was the lack of remorse. That kinda threw me off a little, but I felt that Tony's side and Cap's side were both fully explained and justified in their stance. Tony felt that registering heroes was the best decision, if you didn't register you were breaking the law. Once you break the law, after Stamford, and refuse to register, you are no better than a supervillain in the eyes of the normal folks. Tony was the voice of the majority in the story. Most people fail to realize that Tony was actually acting on behalf of the American people.
the reason why i say identity crisis is becuase it showed you what a hero has to go throw every time they put on their mask. civil war didn't. plus the reason why it started in the first place makes no since, i mean hulk and the sentinels alone have been thrasing New york but all of a sudden when a couple of hereos invade a villains house and a school blows up everybody realizes that they need to be monitored. "yeah nice timing idiots". Identity crisis you had areal stroy going on its was like the characters have benn ripped apart and pushed into a corner it also showed you that the justice league has some of the creepest skeletons in their closet. and that sometimes the hero wins but at a big price and the going on what someone said why back when, the evidences did add up the found the foot prints in elongated mans wife head and they figured it out all at the end.
Civil War started off so strong and so original. The only thing that ruined it for me was the ending. I say i liked them equally but Civil War would have taken it for me for sure if it had ended as strongly it had began.
Identity Crisis: No characters behaved in line with continuity/characterization. Rape Civil War: No characters behaved in line with characterization. No Rape.
" @Night Thrasher: Tony was never the kind of prick to build a negative zone prison to put away those who don't agree with him. He was never the kind of prick to hire villains to hunt and kill his former friends. To clone his friend and unleash his insane doppelganger on his friends, just because. Not to mention he then handed out the same technology he fought to keep secret to every damn newbie agent to enforce his agency. Similarly, Cap would never be the one to attack first and ask questions later. He would never fight mindlessly while endangering people he's supposed to protect, without giving a single thought about them. In fact, the whole concept of fighting to make things right is completely stupid. Is killing Iron Man gonna get the law revoked? is killing Cap gonna get the heroes in line? NO, and they should both know that. Real Captain America and Iron Man would know that. "
The funniest part about Civil War for me was that if you took Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic out of that plotline, it made perfect sense. Who do we know that is always accidentally creating robots that go out and try to kill the Avengers? Hank Pym.
He was the only person that was acting how you'd expect him to and he was the only one to turn out to be a skrull.
"going on what someone said why back when, the evidences did add up the found the foot prints in elongated mans wife head and they figured it out all at the end. "
Wrong. Batman said that not a single carpet fiber was out of place in Sue and Ralph's home. The Atom verified this. The Ray couldn't figure out what hit Sue.
Yet the solution was that somebody stood on the carpet and blasted Sue with a flamethrower? Get out of here.
Its even funnier that Doctor Midnight rules out Doctor Light as the killer because Sue's lungs were pink. Ugh...last time I checked, Dr. Light can kill somebody in under a second by burning them. That's not a lot of time to breathe in carbon monoxide and turn her lungs black. Shoddy detective work all around when Batman, Mr Miracle, Superman, the Ray, the Atom, Metamorpho and the Metal Men are outwitted by an insane lawyer.
Additional plot holes/continuity errors in Identity Crisis:
1) Most of the JLA Satallite did not know Superman or Batman's secret identities at the time. Robin was not even allowed to tell his very best friends in Young Justice or his long term girlfriend Spoiler what his real name was. There is therefore zero logical explanation that Jean Loring would know Robin's secret identity and be able to put out a contract on his father.
2) For that matter, how the hell did Jean Loring find out about the Calculator in order to use his services? Its not like he makes a habit of handing out his phone number to the wives of superheroes.
3) Captain Boomerang has always been far more deadly than your average soldier with a machine gun. For him to suddenly become fat and bald (since he showed up in Flash earlier that year and again during Identity Crisis totally healthy with a full head of hair) and so incompetant that a civilian with no firearm training or combat experience could kill him is ridiculous.
4) Firestorm has a healing factor. There's really no reason why the Shining Knight's sword caused him to explode or for the sword to melt.
5) Jean Loring is hugely out of character and irrational to the point of murdering her best friend and impulse buying a flamethrower.
6) Nobody checks to see if Jean Loring, who is hugely out of character and irrational, is being mind controled or something. Nobody thought to mind wipe her either. Instead, they send the woman who knows Robin's secret identity to Arkham Asylum...even though she doesn't live in Gotham, didn't commit any crimes in Gotham and Arkham Asylum is without a doubt the worst place to receive mental care in the entire country.
7) Wildcat beating information out of Mirror Master is a joke. This was retconned in the pages of JSA where Mirror Master easily escapes from Wildcat as well as Stargirl and STRIPES.
8) Heat Wave is seen as a suspect in the murder of Sue Dibney. At the time he was reformed and had been working with the government in Illinois. Underworld Unleashed aside, he had been a hero since the Silver Age. Yet, the JLI tracks him down in Keystone City. I guess they not only didn't ask the Flash where he was, but they didn't talk to anybody who had even seen Heat Wave in the past few years. They just picked a random city (Heat Wave lived in Central City as a supervillain) and happened to find him. Great detective work there, chums.
9) Superman does not care that his friends mindwiped Dr. Light let alone Batman and the Martian Manhunter. Sound like the planet's most ethical hero to you? Me neither.
10) Elongated Man and Sue Dibney were consistantly two of the happiest characters in comics for years after her rape was supposed to take place. She also had no problem hanging out with the other Dr. Light who wore the exact same costume as the man who raped her.
11) Wally West is randomly wearing Barry Allen's costume for half series. Green Arrow II is randomly white. Not really Metzler's fault.
12) The Atom meets Jean one hour after she murdered Sue. He says he's more than an hour late. So Jean made an appointment to meet with Ray and then decided to go kill someone in the middle of it?
13) Geo-Force puts flowers on the grave of his sister, Terra. Problem? He knows she's still alive and living in L.A. (Though later, it would be retconned that the Terra in L.A. was a clone.)
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