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#151 Posted by theONEtaichou (1519 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: Toshiro used a high level kido to stop his zanpakuto, I think #63 binding spell without incantation iirc so he definately fits the bill of a high level kido master (as a requirement of captains barring Zaraki)

#152 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16721 posts) - - Show Bio
#153 Edited by Carter_esque (6447 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari said:

@princearagorn1 said:

@bmezy: I think you were trying to tell that to me, right?

what we have heard is 'iceman can reform as long as there is moisture in the air'. So he is like living ice/water. Even if his body is vapourised, it still exists in gas form. We don't know if he can do in pure soul form, and I'd say it's unlikely that he can, as even omega level mutants are still mutants because of evolved genes and their powers base from them.. However strong you are, without spiritual nature of powers,you still are powerless in soul form. We have no reason to assume that iceman's soul will be any different than a normal teenager, because his powers, even to exist as a conscious, stem from his genes, not his soul. Buckshot, however makes an excellent point about this, and without kidou, this will be extremely tough to do, considering closing in on someone with insane power like iceman can very well end the fight. But considering the huge speed gap.. he could be capable. Leaving out kidous from hitsugaya is really unfair for him, as they could bind, restrict, or destroy iceman's soul from a distance. That's a part of shinigami characters. as his powers mostly based on ice, and iceman slaughters him in potential and variety on using ice.

You're wrong here on multiple counts.

First, the major advantage that Bobby has in this fight is his ability to control the battlefield for both offensive and defensive purposes. Iceman can just lower the temperature of the area around him to absolute zero as soon as the fight starts, which would effectively negate a speed blitz by Hitsugaya. Or, even if Hitsugaya manages to speed blitz, Bobby could then lower the temperature of the surrounding area to absolute zero in an attempt negate Hitsgaya's speed advantage for the duration of the fight.

Second, while Hitsugaya is asserted to be an expert at kido, his feats using kido are extremely paltry. In fact, off the top of my head, I can't remember him doing anything really impressive with kido. Moreover, there are no kido spells in Bleach that allow you to destroy a person's soul from a distance. Additionally, while there are kido spells that allow the user to restrict or bind somebody those don't work on a person's soul; they've only been shown to work on someone's actual body; they wouldn't work on Bobby because he can simply reconstruct a new body and transfer his consciousness to it.

I may be wrong, or right, but you're not right in any way either. You don't 'effectively negate speed blitz' by doing something, you get speed blitzed before you can do anything at all. And after getting separated from ice form, bobby isn't going to do anything at all. There is no stated reason that his soul should be stronger than an average person. Bobby can do a lot when connected to his body, even if the body is in vapourised state, but without any connection to ice, he's not doing anything. It's like saying we can still punch/eat after we've been separated from our body. Reforming, creating clones, controlling ice, are all based in bobby's body, mutated human. It's never stated to be related to spiritual energy.

Kidous are anyway banned for the fight.

Yes, Hitsugaya hasn't used kidou that much, only thing I can recall is putting an unbreakable-from-outside barrier on hinamori. Being a captain, and a stated expert in kidou, he should be able to use low level kidos. As in, the ones even third seats and lieutenants use without any form of enchantment.

About Everything in bleach is on destroying/binding your souls. About all kidous shown were used on people's shinigami form only. Or hollows/arrancars are corrupted souls as well. Kidous seem to work fine on them. In short, they work on souls. Try again.

@uberhikari: Well... somebody just got OWNED... again

#154 Edited by xeon1cs (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1 said:

@uberhikari said:

@princearagorn1 said:

@bmezy: I think you were trying to tell that to me, right?

what we have heard is 'iceman can reform as long as there is moisture in the air'. So he is like living ice/water. Even if his body is vapourised, it still exists in gas form. We don't know if he can do in pure soul form, and I'd say it's unlikely that he can, as even omega level mutants are still mutants because of evolved genes and their powers base from them.. However strong you are, without spiritual nature of powers,you still are powerless in soul form. We have no reason to assume that iceman's soul will be any different than a normal teenager, because his powers, even to exist as a conscious, stem from his genes, not his soul. Buckshot, however makes an excellent point about this, and without kidou, this will be extremely tough to do, considering closing in on someone with insane power like iceman can very well end the fight. But considering the huge speed gap.. he could be capable. Leaving out kidous from hitsugaya is really unfair for him, as they could bind, restrict, or destroy iceman's soul from a distance. That's a part of shinigami characters. as his powers mostly based on ice, and iceman slaughters him in potential and variety on using ice.

You're wrong here on multiple counts.

First, the major advantage that Bobby has in this fight is his ability to control the battlefield for both offensive and defensive purposes. Iceman can just lower the temperature of the area around him to absolute zero as soon as the fight starts, which would effectively negate a speed blitz by Hitsugaya. Or, even if Hitsugaya manages to speed blitz, Bobby could then lower the temperature of the surrounding area to absolute zero in an attempt negate Hitsgaya's speed advantage for the duration of the fight.

Second, while Hitsugaya is asserted to be an expert at kido, his feats using kido are extremely paltry. In fact, off the top of my head, I can't remember him doing anything really impressive with kido. Moreover, there are no kido spells in Bleach that allow you to destroy a person's soul from a distance. Additionally, while there are kido spells that allow the user to restrict or bind somebody those don't work on a person's soul; they've only been shown to work on someone's actual body; they wouldn't work on Bobby because he can simply reconstruct a new body and transfer his consciousness to it.

I may be wrong, or right, but you're not right in any way either. You don't 'effectively negate speed blitz' by doing something, you get speed blitzed before you can do anything at all. And after getting separated from ice form, bobby isn't going to do anything at all. There is no stated reason that his soul should be stronger than an average person. Bobby can do a lot when connected to his body, even if the body is in vapourised state, but without any connection to ice, he's not doing anything. It's like saying we can still punch/eat after we've been separated from our body. Reforming, creating clones, controlling ice, are all based in bobby's body, mutated human. It's never stated to be related to spiritual energy.

Kidous are anyway banned for the fight.

Yes, Hitsugaya hasn't used kidou that much, only thing I can recall is putting an unbreakable-from-outside barrier on hinamori. Being a captain, and a stated expert in kidou, he should be able to use low level kidos. As in, the ones even third seats and lieutenants use without any form of enchantment.

About Everything in bleach is on destroying/binding your souls. About all kidous shown were used on people's shinigami form only. Or hollows/arrancars are corrupted souls as well. Kidous seem to work fine on them. In short, they work on souls. Try again.

@uberhikari: Well... somebody just got OWNED... again

I mean...not really.

Speed blitzing Iceman is pretty pointless. And considering no one can actually tell us what removing someones "soul" actually means, it's also somewhat irrelevant. Also saying Bobby can't do much without his body, is incredibly wrong.

This thread is still a horrible mismatch in Icemans favor. Why we're pretending he wont just freeze Hitsugayas brain, the entire battlefield or rip the moisture out of him instantly, is beyond me.

#155 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16721 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs: Why exactly is it wrong? His powers, like existing without a body, or reforming, are rooted in genes, related to genes. Soul separation seems to mean you have no contact with your body at all. Something like batman 1 millions soul-bottling. Bobby has feats with a vapourised body. But not in soul form. I have yet to see any kind of evidence that mutants have a stronger soul compared to average when they are more powerful.

#156 Edited by xeon1cs (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1 said:

@xeon1cs: Why exactly is it wrong? His powers, like existing without a body, or reforming, are rooted in genes, related to genes. Soul separation seems to mean you have no contact with your body at all. Something like batman 1 millions soul-bottling. Bobby has feats with a vapourised body. But not in soul form. I have yet to see any kind of evidence that mutants have a stronger soul compared to average when they are more powerful.

Except he can function without a body.

We have no idea what removing someones soul actually means. Is it just their consciousness or whatever that is removed from their body? It's just not really defined. Iceman not having contact with his body is something he has done frequently.

Pretty sure it was Buckshot who already explained that as an omega level mutant, he has evolved beyond his need for a body. He isn't tied to his X Gene like other mutants, he doesn't need a body. He is ice, he is moisture, he is water.

#157 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16721 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

He has functioned with body in vapourised state. not in any soul form.

But notably, what made him an omega level mutant was still his x gene. His powers don't have any kind of spiritual basis, nor has he shown any spiritual energy to say he can fight as a soul. (Examples would be, Goku having massive amount of chi can retain his body and fight. Naruto characters have good amounts of spiritual energy and physical energy. The point is, shinigami are people who come to take the soul after death. as long as you have strengths based in body, you should be technically unable to fight them. Example would be one piece characters. The are insane beasts when in physical form, but there is literally zero evidence to suggest any kind of strengthening of soul. It should be a good idea for any op to mention barring of basic shinigami advantages.)

#158 Edited by xeon1cs (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

He has functioned with body in vapourised state. not in any soul form.

But notably, what made him an omega level mutant was still his x gene. His powers don't have any kind of spiritual basis, nor has he shown any spiritual energy to say he can fight as a soul. (Examples would be, Goku having massive amount of chi can retain his body and fight. Naruto characters have good amounts of spiritual energy and physical energy. The point is, shinigami are people who come to take the soul after death. as long as you have strengths based in body, you should be technically unable to fight them. Example would be one piece characters. The are insane beasts when in physical form, but there is literally zero evidence to suggest any kind of strengthening of soul. It should be a good idea for any op to mention barring of basic shinigami advantages.)

Yes, I understand. However you have no way of knowing what a soul actually means. As it is not clearly defined, as pointed out several times in this thread. How do you know it's not just someones consciousness?

#159 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (16721 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs: Not entirely sure how you are getting soul and consciousness mixed up..

#160 Posted by xeon1cs (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs: Not entirely sure how you are getting soul and consciousness mixed up..

Not getting them mixed up at all, there's just nothing to define that one is different than the other. Especially not in Bleach.

#161 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16721 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@princearagorn1 said:

@xeon1cs: Not entirely sure how you are getting soul and consciousness mixed up..

Not getting them mixed up at all, there's just nothing to define that one is different than the other. Especially not in Bleach.

As in? what are you implying, I mean?

#162 Posted by uberhikari (2474 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@princearagorn1 said:

@xeon1cs: Not entirely sure how you are getting soul and consciousness mixed up..

Not getting them mixed up at all, there's just nothing to define that one is different than the other. Especially not in Bleach.

As in? what are you implying, I mean?

He's implying that since you can't adequately define what a soul is by the standards in Bleach, your statement that Bobby will have his "soul" removed is effectively meaningless. It's like saying you'll remove someone's spirit but then never define what spirit means. If we don't know what a soul is in Bleach, then you can't actually say what removing Bobby's soul would do to him. Thus, any complications or damage that Bobby would receive from Hitsugaya removing his soul would be speculative and unquantifiable, at best.

#163 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16721 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1 said:

@xeon1cs said:

@princearagorn1 said:

@xeon1cs: Not entirely sure how you are getting soul and consciousness mixed up..

Not getting them mixed up at all, there's just nothing to define that one is different than the other. Especially not in Bleach.

As in? what are you implying, I mean?

He's implying that since you can't adequately define what a soul is by the standards in Bleach, your statement that Bobby will have his "soul" removed is effectively meaningless. It's like saying you'll remove someone's spirit but then never define what spirit means. If we don't know what a soul is in Bleach, then you can't actually say what removing Bobby's soul would do to him. Thus, any complications or damage that Bobby would receive from Hitsugaya removing his soul would be speculative and unquantifiable, at best.

For starters, we have know evidence that bobby's soul is any different than normal, he's basically a human with extreme ice related powers. He is able to use his powers with body in vapourised state. But separation of soul means he's disconnected entirely from it, and hence the powers steming from it. Bobby has feats with a destroyed body, but NOT when disconnected from it.

When a human soul is seperated, he/she seemingly has a spirit body, with their physical body laying dead. Equivalently, when iceman's soul is removed, he will be a soul formed teenager with basically no training of soul form, with a lump of lifeless ice on the ground. Assuming that's what will remain on bobby's death, as soul separation means, literally, death. But shinigami seem to be able to reverse it on their own bodies.

#164 Posted by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio

How does Iceman lose here? He can just freeze the guy and go back to his juvenile hijinks.

#165 Edited by Simon_the_digger (2911 posts) - - Show Bio

This should be locked.

#166 Edited by xeon1cs (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: I'm saying there is no way to define what a soul is. It could very well just be his consciousness. Which is exactly what he is. His body is meaningless. Having a destroyed body, is in essence, being separated from it. He's not tied to his body at all. He just houses himself within one.

Separating a consciousness from a body, would leave the body essentially lifeless, would it not? That's why I'm saying there's no way to define one over the other.

#167 Edited by uberhikari (2474 posts) - - Show Bio

@uberhikari said:

@princearagorn1 said:

@bmezy: I think you were trying to tell that to me, right?

what we have heard is 'iceman can reform as long as there is moisture in the air'. So he is like living ice/water. Even if his body is vapourised, it still exists in gas form. We don't know if he can do in pure soul form, and I'd say it's unlikely that he can, as even omega level mutants are still mutants because of evolved genes and their powers base from them.. However strong you are, without spiritual nature of powers,you still are powerless in soul form. We have no reason to assume that iceman's soul will be any different than a normal teenager, because his powers, even to exist as a conscious, stem from his genes, not his soul. Buckshot, however makes an excellent point about this, and without kidou, this will be extremely tough to do, considering closing in on someone with insane power like iceman can very well end the fight. But considering the huge speed gap.. he could be capable. Leaving out kidous from hitsugaya is really unfair for him, as they could bind, restrict, or destroy iceman's soul from a distance. That's a part of shinigami characters. as his powers mostly based on ice, and iceman slaughters him in potential and variety on using ice.

You're wrong here on multiple counts.

First, the major advantage that Bobby has in this fight is his ability to control the battlefield for both offensive and defensive purposes. Iceman can just lower the temperature of the area around him to absolute zero as soon as the fight starts, which would effectively negate a speed blitz by Hitsugaya. Or, even if Hitsugaya manages to speed blitz, Bobby could then lower the temperature of the surrounding area to absolute zero in an attempt negate Hitsgaya's speed advantage for the duration of the fight.

Second, while Hitsugaya is asserted to be an expert at kido, his feats using kido are extremely paltry. In fact, off the top of my head, I can't remember him doing anything really impressive with kido. Moreover, there are no kido spells in Bleach that allow you to destroy a person's soul from a distance. Additionally, while there are kido spells that allow the user to restrict or bind somebody those don't work on a person's soul; they've only been shown to work on someone's actual body; they wouldn't work on Bobby because he can simply reconstruct a new body and transfer his consciousness to it.

I may be wrong, or right, but you're not right in any way either. You don't 'effectively negate speed blitz' by doing something, you get speed blitzed before you can do anything at all. And after getting separated from ice form, bobby isn't going to do anything at all. There is no stated reason that his soul should be stronger than an average person. Bobby can do a lot when connected to his body, even if the body is in vapourised state, but without any connection to ice, he's not doing anything. It's like saying we can still punch/eat after we've been separated from our body. Reforming, creating clones, controlling ice, are all based in bobby's body, mutated human. It's never stated to be related to spiritual energy.

Kidous are anyway banned for the fight.

Yes, Hitsugaya hasn't used kidou that much, only thing I can recall is putting an unbreakable-from-outside barrier on hinamori. Being a captain, and a stated expert in kidou, he should be able to use low level kidos. As in, the ones even third seats and lieutenants use without any form of enchantment.

About Everything in bleach is on destroying/binding your souls. About all kidous shown were used on people's shinigami form only. Or hollows/arrancars are corrupted souls as well. Kidous seem to work fine on them. In short, they work on souls. Try again.

First, Hitsugaya being able to speed blitz Bobby would be more feasible if Bobby's powers weren't psionically controlled; he can decrease the temperature of his body and the surrounding area to absolute zero with a thought. And, contrary to popular belief, Bobby's reaction time isn't exactly "slow." He's certainly slower than Hitsugaya with respect to movement speed but 1 thought is all Bobby would need to use his powers. The question is: Could Bobby use his powers before Hitsugaya could cause him a considerable amount of damage? And the answer is, probably, yes.

Moreover, your response to me is somewhat disingenuous because you flat out ignored certain parts of my response to you. Here's what I said:

Or, even if Hitsugaya manages to speed blitz, Bobby could then lower the temperature of the surrounding area to absolute zero in an attempt [to] negate Hitsgaya's speed advantage for the duration of the fight.

So, even if Hitsugaya manages to speed blitz at the beginning of the fight it will most likely be the first and last time that Hitsugaya would be able to touch or get near Bobby for the duration of the fight. Hitsugaya is absolute helpless here because, like I stated before, Iceman can control the entire battlefield for both offensive and defensive purposes.

Second, even after people keep telling you that you're wrong, you continue to assert over and over again that Iceman actually needs a body in order to fight. This is NOT true. Iceman doesn't need a physical body to access his powers, a body is just something he likes to have for whatever reason. He's perfectly okay with existing as a disembodied consciousness. Additionally, Bobby doesn't need "any connection to ice," because he can create, control and manipulate ice. And while it is true that Bobby's genes are responsible for his powers, they are the CAUSE of his powers, not the SOURCE of his powers. There is an important difference. Bobby's mutated genes are what caused him to become a mutant but the source of Bobby's powers is psionics, i.e., hydrokinesis, cryokinesis, and thermal energy manipulation. It is precisely because Iceman's abilities are psionic in nature that he doesn't need a physical body to access his powers; his consciousness is all that is required.

Third, the idea that Bleach has "soul" based attacks that bind or destroy a person's soul is somewhat of a technicality. Bleach is about souls like Shinigami and Hollows, but the idea that their attacks target the soul directly, like Dark Schneider's spell Judas Priest, which completely erases a target's soul from existence, is dubious. The souls in Bleach are very peculiar: Souls can have their "limbs" removed, they can "bleed," and Ukitake even has a disease that resembles tuberculosis. Souls can't be dismembered, bleed, or be afflicted with Earthly diseases, which is why I always proceed with caution when discussing the supposed soul-based abilities of Bleach characters.

#168 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (16721 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@princearagorn1: I'm saying there is no way to define what a soul is. It could very well just be his consciousness. Which is exactly what he is. His body is meaningless. Having a destroyed body, is in essence, being separated from it. He's not tied to his body at all. He just houses himself within one.

Separating a consciousness from a body, would leave the body essentially lifeless, would it not? That's why I'm saying there's no way to define one over the other.

So basically we leave the point hanging due to lack of details.. right?

#169 Posted by xeon1cs (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@princearagorn1: I'm saying there is no way to define what a soul is. It could very well just be his consciousness. Which is exactly what he is. His body is meaningless. Having a destroyed body, is in essence, being separated from it. He's not tied to his body at all. He just houses himself within one.

Separating a consciousness from a body, would leave the body essentially lifeless, would it not? That's why I'm saying there's no way to define one over the other.

So basically we leave the point hanging due to lack of details.. right?

I mean, there's just nothing to really determine that a consciousness is different than a soul in Bleach, or any other universe for that matter, unless specified, is there really?

#170 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16721 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@princearagorn1 said:

@xeon1cs said:

@princearagorn1: I'm saying there is no way to define what a soul is. It could very well just be his consciousness. Which is exactly what he is. His body is meaningless. Having a destroyed body, is in essence, being separated from it. He's not tied to his body at all. He just houses himself within one.

Separating a consciousness from a body, would leave the body essentially lifeless, would it not? That's why I'm saying there's no way to define one over the other.

So basically we leave the point hanging due to lack of details.. right?

I mean, there's just nothing to really determine that a consciousness is different than a soul in Bleach, or any other universe for that matter, unless specified, is there really?

No, but btw, what will happen when bobby dies, exactly?

#171 Edited by xeon1cs (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1 said:

@xeon1cs said:

@princearagorn1 said:

@xeon1cs said:

@princearagorn1: I'm saying there is no way to define what a soul is. It could very well just be his consciousness. Which is exactly what he is. His body is meaningless. Having a destroyed body, is in essence, being separated from it. He's not tied to his body at all. He just houses himself within one.

Separating a consciousness from a body, would leave the body essentially lifeless, would it not? That's why I'm saying there's no way to define one over the other.

So basically we leave the point hanging due to lack of details.. right?

I mean, there's just nothing to really determine that a consciousness is different than a soul in Bleach, or any other universe for that matter, unless specified, is there really?

No, but btw, what will happen when bobby dies, exactly?

Do we know if he can even die? I mean, he was killed in his human form, and he reformed himself.

I could be wrong, but for all intents and purposes, Bobby is immortal.

#172 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16721 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:


No, but btw, what will happen when bobby dies, exactly?

Do we know if he can even die? I mean, he was killed in his human form, and he reformed himself.

I could be wrong, but for all intents and purposes, Bobby is immortal.

???

#173 Posted by xeon1cs (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

No, but btw, what will happen when bobby dies, exactly?

Do we know if he can even die? I mean, he was killed in his human form, and he reformed himself.

I could be wrong, but for all intents and purposes, Bobby is immortal.

???

I mean that's not really a response.

#174 Edited by DireDrill (2447 posts) - - Show Bio

All Omega Level Mutants are functionally immortal. It is one of the criteria for getting into the club.

#175 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16721 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@princearagorn1 said:

@xeon1cs said:

No, but btw, what will happen when bobby dies, exactly?

Do we know if he can even die? I mean, he was killed in his human form, and he reformed himself.

I could be wrong, but for all intents and purposes, Bobby is immortal.

???

I mean that's not really a response.

Immortal sounds one hell of a hype. What if he's hit by sok's bullet?

#176 Posted by xeon1cs (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@princearagorn1 said:

@xeon1cs said:

No, but btw, what will happen when bobby dies, exactly?

Do we know if he can even die? I mean, he was killed in his human form, and he reformed himself.

I could be wrong, but for all intents and purposes, Bobby is immortal.

???

I mean that's not really a response.

Immortal sounds one hell of a hype. What if he's hit by sok's bullet?

Hitsugaya isn't SoK. So I dont see how that's relevant.

Either way, I guess it would destroy his body. I dont know if it would actually KILL him. Has SoK shot and killed someone who was basically an elemental?

#177 Posted by Bossmoss4l (242 posts) - - Show Bio

Didn't Iceman beat Oblivion?

#178 Posted by Buckshot (18915 posts) - - Show Bio

@bmezy: I think you were trying to tell that to me, right?

what we have heard is 'iceman can reform as long as there is moisture in the air'. So he is like living ice/water. Even if his body is vapourised, it still exists in gas form. We don't know if he can do in pure soul form, and I'd say it's unlikely that he can, as even omega level mutants are still mutants because of evolved genes and their powers base from them.. However strong you are, without spiritual nature of powers,you still are powerless in soul form. We have no reason to assume that iceman's soul will be any different than a normal teenager, because his powers, even to exist as a conscious, stem from his genes, not his soul. Buckshot, however makes an excellent point about this, and without kidou, this will be extremely tough to do, considering closing in on someone with insane power like iceman can very well end the fight. But considering the huge speed gap.. he could be capable. Leaving out kidous from hitsugaya is really unfair for him, as they could bind, restrict, or destroy iceman's soul from a distance. That's a part of shinigami characters. as his powers mostly based on ice, and iceman slaughters him in potential and variety on using ice.

I'm glad multiple other people were able to point out your misstep here while I was away. But to reiterate, it comes down to you relying on Bobby needing a connection to his genes or his body...despite him showing he can function without them. When he's destroyed it's not that he's still existing in a body in a gas form (though even then, you'd be hard pressed to support the idea that he needs his genes to use his powers), it's that his consciousness exists and he can act on moisture. He can't physically manifest without moisture, but it appears he still exists. Then there's the problem of the soul/consciousness question which, again, others have attempted to point out. This is why I asked about examples (images) of a soul being messed with in bleach to see if maybe i could extract something from them to apply to the discussion. As it stands though, it just doesn't really seem, to me, that a shinigami removing him from his body would be that much different from his body just being destroyed, which he's shown multiple times he can handle.

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#179 Posted by theONEtaichou (1519 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonetaichou: When did that happen?

the Muramasa arc (although I do get many consider it non-canon as it's not in the manga)

#180 Posted by theONEtaichou (1519 posts) - - Show Bio

are we really moving into a discussion of the difference of consciousness vs soul and their states/qualities?