#101 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (25589 posts) - - Show Bio

@regal_rumble_man: They're versatile.. As in, unohana's squad only heals, kenpachi's only good at fights, toshiro's does God knows what.. But Aizen's squad is good at everything. What a surprise!

#102 Edited by Regal_Rumble_Man (885 posts) - - Show Bio
#103 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (25589 posts) - - Show Bio

@regal_rumble_man: Yeah.. sort of. Shinji is good, And their lieutenant was ichimaru.. but he was replaced by hinamori, who is supposedly a master of kidou but only plays the roll to give some emotional depth to hitsugaya's character.. Then there are former members, like renji, and kira.. but meh, who cares.

#104 Posted by Regal_Rumble_Man (885 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: hinamori master of kidou? i'd like someone use that in an argument within a battle thread

>.> make one

#105 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (25589 posts) - - Show Bio

@regal_rumble_man: No, seriously. It was said by kira, who himself is good with mid level kidous.. And why would someone want to make a thread with hinamori in it lol

#106 Posted by Regal_Rumble_Man (885 posts) - - Show Bio
#107 Edited by theONEtaichou (1600 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@theonetaichou said:

Toshirou wins

It's literally impossible for him to win under these circumstances.

points have been made why Toshirou wins... not so quite impossible Lol. Sorry to have fun at your expense, but in all seriousness... the points given here are why the taichou wins.

#108 Posted by xeon1cs (1483 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@theonetaichou said:

Toshirou wins

It's literally impossible for him to win under these circumstances.

points have been made why Toshirou wins... not so quite impossible Lol. Sorry to have fun at your expense, but in all seriousness... the points given here are why the taichou wins.

What points? He has no way to even harm Iceman.

#109 Posted by frogdog (3992 posts) - - Show Bio

LOL at people using the speedbliz, bobby will just reform, not to mention histugaya has nothing to harm Iceman.

#110 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (25589 posts) - - Show Bio

@frogdog said:

LOL at people using the speedbliz, bobby will just reform, not to mention histugaya has nothing to harm Iceman.

But bobby isn't tagging hitsugaya either. Stalemate.

#111 Posted by frogdog (3992 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: hitsugaya doesn't have inifine stamina, not to mention bobby can just ice clones/bodies as a distraction, as he covers the city in ice.

#112 Edited by jamesisaacs (216 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

What points? He has no way to even harm Iceman.

Everything Hitsugaya can do makes this a stomp. Iceman cannot freeze a shinigami who controls the same thing Iceman does but on a superior, supernatural level.

@frogdog said:

@princearagorn1: hitsugaya doesn't have inifine stamina, not to mention bobby can just ice clones/bodies as a distraction, as he covers the city in ice.

A genius level shinigami wouldn't fall for iceclones made by some mutant human, they just wouldn't have the same effect as say a clone manipulated from spiritual power.

P.S. Compared to iceman, yes Hitsugaya has infinite Stamina...
#113 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (25589 posts) - - Show Bio

@frogdog said:

@princearagorn1: hitsugaya doesn't have inifine stamina, not to mention bobby can just ice clones/bodies as a distraction, as he covers the city in ice.

Hitsugaya doesn't need infinite stamina. At his speed, he could keep away from iceman's attacks, or retreat to a safer location, then sneak up. He doesn't have to use high power moves to tire out. And as of the clones, hitsugaya himself is very cautious, and uses ice reflections as a distraction. And his fighting experience is miles ahead, too.I don't think he's going to be distracted.. And even if he is distracted, how much clones do you think bobby will need to distract him, considering he's a shumpo expert?

#114 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (25589 posts) - - Show Bio

@jamesisaacs: I think you're being a bit biased.. just saiyan.

#115 Edited by jamesisaacs (216 posts) - - Show Bio

@jamesisaacs: I think you're being a bit biased.. just saiyan.

It's hard not to when the Bleachverse stomps Iceman...

#116 Posted by Regal_Rumble_Man (885 posts) - - Show Bio

the water in hitsugaya's brain turn into ice or his ice gets transmuted

#117 Posted by X_insignia1 (1406 posts) - - Show Bio

lol did someone just say Bobby has infinite stamina? i recall it being mentioned that extensive high use of his abilities does tax him. After being shattered, repairing does seem to have an affect on his abilities. So those saying " he could keep coming back" is a no-no, because eventually, he would tire out.

#118 Posted by XEL820 (235 posts) - - Show Bio

Morals off? Bobby flash freezes Toshi's molecules to absolute zero in the blink of an eye. Iceman in a stomp.

#119 Posted by X_insignia1 (1406 posts) - - Show Bio

^ no.

#120 Posted by rcranium (154 posts) - - Show Bio

Hitsugaya was a prodigy but it never demonstrated why. He also rushes into battle without thinking twice about it and doesn't seem to have any tactical skill. He was beaten by Aizen twice and Gin once. Byakuya, Kenpachi, Ichigo, Kyoraku, Ukitake (if healthy), Unohana(if she can actually fight), Ichigo, all the vizard captains, Tessai, Yoroichi. and of course Yamamoto. The only ones he might beat are Tousen, Soifon and Kurotsuchi.

#121 Posted by frogdog (3992 posts) - - Show Bio

lol did someone just say Bobby has infinite stamina? i recall it being mentioned that extensive high use of his abilities does tax him. After being shattered, repairing does seem to have an affect on his abilities. So those saying " he could keep coming back" is a no-no, because eventually, he would tire out.

First off, learn to read "hitsugaya doesn't have inifine stamina" I didn't imply bobby had one.

@xeon1cs said:

What points? He has no way to even harm Iceman.

Everything Hitsugaya can do makes this a stomp. Iceman cannot freeze a shinigami who controls the same thing Iceman does but on a superior, supernatural level.

@frogdog said:

@princearagorn1: hitsugaya doesn't have inifine stamina, not to mention bobby can just ice clones/bodies as a distraction, as he covers the city in ice.

A genius level shinigami wouldn't fall for iceclones made by some mutant human, they just wouldn't have the same effect as say a clone manipulated from spiritual power.

P.S. Compared to iceman, yes Hitsugaya has infinite Stamina...

When hitsugaya can flash freeze a flash freezes a nuclear reactor, can freeze stuff to absolute zero, manipulate hot and cold temperatures, then we can say bobby is inferior to hitsugaya. Just to humor your second point on the supernatural level, Thor compared Iceman's powers to a powerful asgardian frost giant.

Ice clones would absorb any ice attack, hitsugaya throws at them, not mention their size can vary from human to city block.

Lucky for Iceman, fighting the juggernaut and hulk gives him experience with people with superior stamina than his own.

#122 Edited by theONEtaichou (1600 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@theonetaichou said:

@xeon1cs said:

@theonetaichou said:

Toshirou wins

It's literally impossible for him to win under these circumstances.

points have been made why Toshirou wins... not so quite impossible Lol. Sorry to have fun at your expense, but in all seriousness... the points given here are why the taichou wins.

What points? He has no way to even harm Iceman.

Here are some of the points posited here mate...

@xeon1cs said:

What points? He has no way to even harm Iceman.

Everything Hitsugaya can do makes this a stomp. Iceman cannot freeze a shinigami who controls the same thing Iceman does but on a superior, supernatural level.

@frogdog said:

@princearagorn1: hitsugaya doesn't have inifine stamina, not to mention bobby can just ice clones/bodies as a distraction, as he covers the city in ice.

A genius level shinigami wouldn't fall for iceclones made by some mutant human, they just wouldn't have the same effect as say a clone manipulated from spiritual power.

P.S. Compared to iceman, yes Hitsugaya has infinite Stamina...

@frogdog said:

@princearagorn1: hitsugaya doesn't have inifine stamina, not to mention bobby can just ice clones/bodies as a distraction, as he covers the city in ice.

Hitsugaya doesn't need infinite stamina. At his speed, he could keep away from iceman's attacks, or retreat to a safer location, then sneak up. He doesn't have to use high power moves to tire out. And as of the clones, hitsugaya himself is very cautious, and uses ice reflections as a distraction. And his fighting experience is miles ahead, too.I don't think he's going to be distracted.. And even if he is distracted, how much clones do you think bobby will need to distract him, considering he's a shumpo expert?

lol did someone just say Bobby has infinite stamina? i recall it being mentioned that extensive high use of his abilities does tax him. After being shattered, repairing does seem to have an affect on his abilities. So those saying " he could keep coming back" is a no-no, because eventually, he would tire out.

#123 Posted by ssejllenrad (13028 posts) - - Show Bio

That guy with ice powers win... Mr. Freeze! Yeah him!

#124 Edited by theONEtaichou (1600 posts) - - Show Bio

@rcranium said:

Hitsugaya was a prodigy but it never demonstrated why. He also rushes into battle without thinking twice about it and doesn't seem to have any tactical skill. He was beaten by Aizen twice and Gin once. Byakuya, Kenpachi, Ichigo, Kyoraku, Ukitake (if healthy), Unohana(if she can actually fight), Ichigo, all the vizard captains, Tessai, Yoroichi. and of course Yamamoto. The only ones he might beat are Tousen, Soifon and Kurotsuchi.

He is a prodigy, passed and mastered everything from the Shinigami school, I think he graduated in a year, also achieving the best scores ever as well iirc. High level spiritual pressure, achieved his shikai and bankai relativity quickly and has mastered it, I would say Ichigo achieved his fastest (but Ichigo cheated so meh). Has the most powerful zanpakuto of it's type, I think he was having visions of his zanpakuto while living with his grandmother before he even entered the Shinigami school (in other words what takes Shinigamis hundred of years sometimes to even know their the zanpukutos he naturally came to his). And as Kyoraku said to Starrk, probably in a hundred years or so Toshirou would surpass them all (I guess that shows his potential). The people who can beat him are stronger than him that you have listed, having been around far longer than him (barring Ichigo but Ichigo has PIS so meh). Of course they would be stronger, now though. As Kyoraku said, if you probably gave Toshirou a century or two he would mop the floor with everyone (I don't know about Yamamoto though).

@frogdog said:

When hitsugaya can flash freeze a flash freezes a nuclear reactor, can freeze stuff to absolute zero, manipulate hot and cold temperatures, then we can say bobby is inferior to hitsugaya. Just to humor your second point on the supernatural level, Thor compared Iceman's powers to a powerful asgardian frost giant.

Ice clones would absorb any ice attack, hitsugaya throws at them, not mention their size can vary from human to city block.

Lucky for Iceman, fighting the juggernaut and hulk gives him experience with people with superior stamina than his own.

Flash freezing nuclear reactors, absolute zero =/= superior to a supernatural ghost with spiritual power who supernaturally controls the same elements as well, I would say even more superior than Booby (as a kid his spiritual power was so great he would freeze his grandma I think while he slept due to it leaking). Worse is that Toshirou can just use his spiritual pressure to render the effects of Bobby's freezing moot, by increasing it when Bobby tries to freeze him. I also doubt frost giants compare to Toshirou...

Juggernaut and Hulk are inferior to Toshirou (barring strength and stamina), fighting them is meaningless experience against one who has super speed (shunpo), paralyzing spiritual pressure, supernatural elemental attacks and magic. Without restrictions Toshirou would annihilate Bobby without even raising his reaitsu. Just because they have greater stamina than Bobby (who has never singularly won against them anyway) =/= Bobby can hold his own against Toshirou.

good day

#125 Edited by xeon1cs (1483 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@theonetaichou said:

@xeon1cs said:

@theonetaichou said:

Toshirou wins

It's literally impossible for him to win under these circumstances.

points have been made why Toshirou wins... not so quite impossible Lol. Sorry to have fun at your expense, but in all seriousness... the points given here are why the taichou wins.

What points? He has no way to even harm Iceman.

Here are some of the points posited here mate...

@jamesisaacs said:

@xeon1cs said:

What points? He has no way to even harm Iceman.

Everything Hitsugaya can do makes this a stomp. Iceman cannot freeze a shinigami who controls the same thing Iceman does but on a superior, supernatural level.

@frogdog said:

@princearagorn1: hitsugaya doesn't have inifine stamina, not to mention bobby can just ice clones/bodies as a distraction, as he covers the city in ice.

A genius level shinigami wouldn't fall for iceclones made by some mutant human, they just wouldn't have the same effect as say a clone manipulated from spiritual power.

P.S. Compared to iceman, yes Hitsugaya has infinite Stamina...
@princearagorn1 said:

@frogdog said:

@princearagorn1: hitsugaya doesn't have inifine stamina, not to mention bobby can just ice clones/bodies as a distraction, as he covers the city in ice.

Hitsugaya doesn't need infinite stamina. At his speed, he could keep away from iceman's attacks, or retreat to a safer location, then sneak up. He doesn't have to use high power moves to tire out. And as of the clones, hitsugaya himself is very cautious, and uses ice reflections as a distraction. And his fighting experience is miles ahead, too.I don't think he's going to be distracted.. And even if he is distracted, how much clones do you think bobby will need to distract him, considering he's a shumpo expert?

@x_insignia1 said:

lol did someone just say Bobby has infinite stamina? i recall it being mentioned that extensive high use of his abilities does tax him. After being shattered, repairing does seem to have an affect on his abilities. So those saying " he could keep coming back" is a no-no, because eventually, he would tire out.

How are any of those points? He just states Hitsugaya has better than Iceman at using ice, which isn't even remotely true. Hitsugaya would have no idea which Ice Clone is the real one. They all operate individually.

He's going to keep away from near-absolute freezing? It would have the same effect as Captain Colds ice field does on Flash.

The fight wouldn't even go on long enough for Iceman to get tired. Even if Hitsugaya destroys his body, he'll just jump into his and rip all of the moisture out of his body.

#126 Posted by jamesisaacs (216 posts) - - Show Bio

Hitsugaya cannot be frozen by Iceman anyways. His Reiatsu would prevent his interior from freezing and would bust him out of the ice. Hitsugaya wouldn't lose to individually operating clones neither. Iceman won't be jumping into a shinigami's body neither. You noobs really have no understanding of Bleach at all do you?

#127 Posted by theONEtaichou (1600 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

How are any of those points? He just states Hitsugaya has better than Iceman at using ice, which isn't even remotely true. Hitsugaya would have no idea which Ice Clone is the real one. They all operate individually.

He's going to keep away from near-absolute freezing? It would have the same effect as Captain Colds ice field does on Flash.

The fight wouldn't even go on long enough for Iceman to get tired. Even if Hitsugaya destroys his body, he'll just jump into his and rip all of the moisture out of his body.

Toshirou has demonstrated superiority over his element with his zanpakuto, fighting Tia Harribel who especially had a counter power, turning ice into water, and still managed to freeze her. She even got shocked she was getting frozen. As for ice clones, will Toshirou stand there waiting for Bobby to make all his ice clones? Bobby does not instantly make ice clones, the time it would take to make one would = death from Toshirou. On ice clones, Toshirou's one is superior to Bobby's, it can even seemingly bleed as demonstrated by his fight when Tia Harribel's release not to mention the fact he did it so fast his high speed opponent couldn't tell the difference and actually thought she had killed Toshirou. Out of Bobby's league mate.

As for absolute zero, Toshirou's very spiritual pressure creates freezing ambient temperatures without trying, a feat Bobby must actively do. I doubt Bobby's temperature would hamper Toshirou. Captain Cold's ice field may slow Flash, but Toshirou is not Flash. His powers abound in cold temperatures, I fail to see how being cold would affect him.

You are right, the fight would not go very long for Bobby to get tired. He dies quickly. He has no counter for Toshirou's speed, no way to counter Toshirou's defenses or penetrate them, cannot limit what Toshirou can do with his spiritual pressure including using it for defense say against being frozen. And if Toshirou destroys Bobby's body, while Bobby is in his vapour form he would be at the mercy of Toshirou who once healed his bankai from the ambient vapour around him i.e. Toshirou has control water vapour as well. It would not end well from Bobby

#128 Posted by xeon1cs (1483 posts) - - Show Bio

@theonetaichou: I feel like you just don't have any idea what Iceman actually is. Hitsugaya has literally no way to kill him. And its not about Hitusgaya being slowed down from being cold...its about molecular movement literally stopping.

#129 Posted by uberhikari (2493 posts) - - Show Bio

Hitsugaya can not hurt Bobby with ice-based attacks. What part of this do you people not understand? This isn't rocket science people: You can't use ice-based attacks to harm someone who is made of ice and can control ice. Arguing against this is just silly.

Second, Hitsugaya has NEVER shown any indication that he has enough control over ice to either freeze objects to absolute zero or stop himself from being frozen at absolute zero. These are facts...deal with them. If Bobby freezes Hitsugaya at absolute zero temperatures, Hitsugaya dies. It's that simple. No one cares about spiritual pressure or the fact that Hitsugaya's ice is "supernatural" (a buzz word that means absolutely nothing in terms of feats) or Hitsugaya being a genius.

#130 Edited by theONEtaichou (1600 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@theonetaichou: I feel like you just don't have any idea what Iceman actually is. Hitsugaya has literally no way to kill him. And its not about Hitusgaya being slowed down from being cold...its about molecular movement literally stopping.

I actually do have an idea of who Iceman is. And Iceman has no way to catch Toshirou, let alone hurt him as well. And when you freeze stuff, is that not the slowing down and eventual stopping of molecular movement? And has Toshirou not frozen things, granted they have never been said to absolute zero? But also considering how Hyōrinmaru freezes and then destroys enemies (with the exception of high level spiritual beings like released espadas) it is unlike anything Bobby has ever done as well, to infer that only Bobby's freezing will work and not vice versa (which is not produced by the removal of heat or motion but by reitsu) is a tad fallacious. BTW is Bobby immortal? Bobby's powers fluctuate with him being tired, particulary mental exhaustion. A plight he would surely find here fighting Toshirou.

#131 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (25589 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@theonetaichou: I feel like you just don't have any idea what Iceman actually is. Hitsugaya has literally no way to kill him. And its not about Hitusgaya being slowed down from being cold...its about molecular movement literally stopping.

Technically, hitsugaya reduces the temperature, too. So molecular movements are slowed down as well. But, iceman can reach lower temperatures, hands down.

#132 Posted by frogdog (3992 posts) - - Show Bio

@frogdog said:

When hitsugaya can flash freeze a flash freezes a nuclear reactor, can freeze stuff to absolute zero, manipulate hot and cold temperatures, then we can say bobby is inferior to hitsugaya. Just to humor your second point on the supernatural level, Thor compared Iceman's powers to a powerful asgardian frost giant.

Ice clones would absorb any ice attack, hitsugaya throws at them, not mention their size can vary from human to city block.

Lucky for Iceman, fighting the juggernaut and hulk gives him experience with people with superior stamina than his own.

Flash freezing nuclear reactors, absolute zero =/= superior to a supernatural ghost with spiritual power who supernaturally controls the same elements as well, I would say even more superior than Booby (as a kid his spiritual power was so great he would freeze his grandma I think while he slept due to it leaking). Worse is that Toshirou can just use his spiritual pressure to render the effects of Bobby's freezing moot, by increasing it when Bobby tries to freeze him. I also doubt frost giants compare to Toshirou...

Juggernaut and Hulk are inferior to Toshirou (barring strength and stamina), fighting them is meaningless experience against one who has super speed (shunpo), paralyzing spiritual pressure, supernatural elemental attacks and magic. Without restrictions Toshirou would annihilate Bobby without even raising his reaitsu. Just because they have greater stamina than Bobby (who has never singularly won against them anyway) =/= Bobby can hold his own against Toshirou.

good day

Your dismissing bobby's feats with poor rebuttals, how is hitsugaya freezing his grandma in his sleep, more impressive than freezing a nuclear reactors within seconds? That's not even getting to the fact that bobby can freeze a whole city, with the potential to cover the whole world. You haven't proven anything that shows hitsugaya being the superior ice manipulater, other than mention that he's Shinigami. Spiritual pressure didn't even kill ichgo's human powerless friends, what chance will have against an omega mutant. Frost Giants are the reason why there's a cold country in Asgard, implying they can't measure to Hitsugaya would downplaying them.

First off Juggernaut main source of power is from a powerful magical being, second both hulk and juggernaut have tagged hero/villians faster than hitsugaya, not to mention that you still haven't shown something that shows hitsugaya being superior, you mentioning Tia Harribel only proves that Hitsugaya isn't better at ice manipulation. Also I find it funny that you bring up Iceman not winning against hulk or Juggernaut, considering that Hitsugaya's track record...

#133 Edited by GonnaRain (758 posts) - - Show Bio

Already said but I feel the need to repeat it: Hitsugaya is incredibly overrated, Ichigo quite close behind. I've been reading Bleach pretty much since it begun (feels like a bazillion years ago, specially with its slow pace), and in my opinion Toushirou is nothing more than fan material. The "genius" and "prodigy" title can only get you so far... And he's getting awfully owned almost every time he engages in a fight against a decent enemy.

The only advantage Toushirou has over Bobby is speed, but I'm almost certain he could be tagged, specially by someone that doesn't need to really target his opponent since he can actually affect the battlefield. Anyways, Toushirou is fast, like pretty much any regular Shinigami using Shunpou, but he hasn't really showed any speed feats to put him at, say, Byakuya's level, and his durability in comparison to other Shinigami is also questionable.

So, at the end I don't think it will be a stomp in Iceman's favor, but I'm sure he wins, let it be because of Toushirou draining first, or flash freezing, Bobby Drake takes this.

Ps. I agree, Bleach is not what it used to be, every time it gets interesting, like the recent Unohana vs. Kenpachi fight, it returns immediately to a million chapters about Ichigo, his background, another new power origin and a soon to come boost. Lately we rarely get any development for the Humans for example... Chad got a mini boost, Inoue gets the badass Shiten Koushun, and then they disappear from Bleach pages for yet another arc...

#134 Posted by Buckshot (19356 posts) - - Show Bio

Ugh, this is terrible. It's not even who people are saying will win, it's how everything is being said. It's just so...ugh.

It seems to me that the biggest advantage hitsugaya has is speed, but as has been said, that grants him a way to avoid Iceman's attacks, not necessarily beat him. The soul removal thing seemed like a possibility, except that Iceman's consciousness isn't bound to his body and can reform as long as there's moisture. The claim has been made that Iceman will get exhausted from reforming, but I don't think that's likely. In addition to the instances of Iceman reforming that have been posted, there are several others. Among those other instances, he's done it in hell, in a desert, in a burning building, and even by reforming inside a mutant made of fire. Some have suggested that it takes a huge toll on Bobby, and while it does take some effort in some of those instances, the only one that was really debilitating was when he was murdered in human form and reformed from that. When he's destroyed in ice form, he has much less of a problem. Other than what form he's in when he's destroyed, I think a couple other things play a factor. First would be his environment. If he's fighting Hitsugaya, the area is going to be covered in ice. Bobby has expressed that the moisture around him can make feats harder or easier. In a fight with Hitsugaya, he's likely to be functioning at a level he's never been at before simply because the area is going to be full of fuel for him from almost the beginning. The other thing that I think makes this look good for Iceman is that he's come a long way since the feats that were posted. Since those feats, IIRC he's mastered temperature control to the point where he can shut off a mutant's powers just because it has a reaction that depends on heat, he can walk through blazes in his human form and remain unharmed by controlling the temperature in the air touching his body, and he can now hit absolute zero with incredible ease whereas before it took quite a bit of effort and him having a good day. He's also developed the ability to create armies of ice clones with amazing speed and have his consciousness be a part of any or all of them. (This kind of undercuts the "Hitsugaya is a genius, he won't be tricked by ice clones" argument since they'd be less like clones and more like extensions of himself in different bodies.) Iceman being able to stay in this fight for a long time doesn't seem like a stretch to me.

I had some similar questions about Hitsugaya's intelligence as have been put forth. I believe he's a genius since that's how he's presented, but knowing how that affects this fight is another thing entirely. I don't recall much genius tactics from him that suggest he'd easily take Iceman. I'm also curious about the limits of his bankai, since those were suggested early on in the series. And I'd throw in a new thought that I don't think has been mentioned. For the people making a big deal about Hitsugaya's supernatural ice, do you think it would grant Bobby supernatural powers if he started using that ice to reform himself or make other bodies?

I don't know who wins, because for as little as I think Hitsugaya can do to stop Iceman, I don't see how Bobby gets around his speed either. Well, that's not true. I don't think Bobby can overcome the speed, but I do think he can get around it. I see two ways. The first would be that Hitsugaya simply gets instantly frozen when he's not moving, because I doubt that he's going to be running around like the Flash for the whole fight. The other would be that after Bobby is destroyed and Hitsugaya thinks the fight is over, Bobby freezes him or reforms using his moisture. Both tactics are really just Bobby hitting when Hitsugaya doesn't see it coming, but that's how these things go.

And yes, I'm aware of the wacky spiritual properties of shinigami characters, but if the fight is made so these two characters can interact, then I think a lot of the problems there are dealt with.

Moderator
#135 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (25589 posts) - - Show Bio

@buckshot said:

Ugh, this is terrible. It's not even who people are saying will win, it's how everything is being said. It's just so...ugh.

It seems to me that the biggest advantage hitsugaya has is speed, but as has been said, that grants him a way to avoid Iceman's attacks, not necessarily beat him. The soul removal thing seemed like a possibility, except that Iceman's consciousness isn't bound to his body and can reform as long as there's moisture. The claim has been made that Iceman will get exhausted from reforming, but I don't think that's likely. In addition to the instances of Iceman reforming that have been posted, there are several others. Among those other instances, he's done it in hell, in a desert, in a burning building, and even by reforming inside a mutant made of fire. Some have suggested that it takes a huge toll on Bobby, and while it does take some effort in some of those instances, the only one that was really debilitating was when he was murdered in human form and reformed from that. When he's destroyed in ice form, he has much less of a problem. Other than what form he's in when he's destroyed, I think a couple other things play a factor. First would be his environment. If he's fighting Hitsugaya, the area is going to be covered in ice. Bobby has expressed that the moisture around him can make feats harder or easier. In a fight with Hitsugaya, he's likely to be functioning at a level he's never been at before simply because the area is going to be full of fuel for him from almost the beginning. The other thing that I think makes this look good for Iceman is that he's come a long way since the feats that were posted. Since those feats, IIRC he's mastered temperature control to the point where he can shut off a mutant's powers just because it has a reaction that depends on heat, he can walk through blazes in his human form and remain unharmed by controlling the temperature in the air touching his body, and he can now hit absolute zero with incredible ease whereas before it took quite a bit of effort and him having a good day. He's also developed the ability to create armies of ice clones with amazing speed and have his consciousness be a part of any or all of them. (This kind of undercuts the "Hitsugaya is a genius, he won't be tricked by ice clones" argument since they'd be less like clones and more like extensions of himself in different bodies.) Iceman being able to stay in this fight for a long time doesn't seem like a stretch to me.

I had some similar questions about Hitsugaya's intelligence as have been put forth. I believe he's a genius since that's how he's presented, but knowing how that affects this fight is another thing entirely. I don't recall much genius tactics from him that suggest he'd easily take Iceman. I'm also curious about the limits of his bankai, since those were suggested early on in the series. And I'd throw in a new thought that I don't think has been mentioned. For the people making a big deal about Hitsugaya's supernatural ice, do you think it would grant Bobby supernatural powers if he started using that ice to reform himself or make other bodies?

I don't know who wins, because for as little as I think Hitsugaya can do to stop Iceman, I don't see how Bobby gets around his speed either. Well, that's not true. I don't think Bobby can overcome the speed, but I do think he can get around it. I see two ways. The first would be that Hitsugaya simply gets instantly frozen when he's not moving, because I doubt that he's going to be running around like the Flash for the whole fight. The other would be that after Bobby is destroyed and Hitsugaya thinks the fight is over, Bobby freezes him or reforms using his moisture. Both tactics are really just Bobby hitting when Hitsugaya doesn't see it coming, but that's how these things go.

And yes, I'm aware of the wacky spiritual properties of shinigami characters, but if the fight is made so these two characters can interact, then I think a lot of the problems there are dealt with.

This is the post with most sense in it. Agreed with almost everything.

Only point I would add is about a blitz and separation from ice form/body. Because even if iceman's conscious is spread, it doesn't mean he gets additional soul for every clone made. Since kidou are not here, this seems basically the way to go, even if it is a bit out of character. No hassle of regeneration, or flash freeze, or anything.

#136 Posted by Carter_esque (6705 posts) - - Show Bio

@frogdog said:

@princearagorn1: hitsugaya doesn't have inifine stamina, not to mention bobby can just ice clones/bodies as a distraction, as he covers the city in ice.

Bobby doesn't have infinite stamina either or have you forgotten that he can only exhaust the full use of his powers for 5 hrs. before he needs to recover. All Tosh has to do is out last hi by that logic... try again.

#137 Edited by Carter_esque (6705 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

What points? He has no way to even harm Iceman.

Everything Hitsugaya can do makes this a stomp. Iceman cannot freeze a shinigami who controls the same thing Iceman does but on a superior, supernatural level.

@frogdog said:

@princearagorn1: hitsugaya doesn't have inifine stamina, not to mention bobby can just ice clones/bodies as a distraction, as he covers the city in ice.

A genius level shinigami wouldn't fall for iceclones made by some mutant human, they just wouldn't have the same effect as say a clone manipulated from spiritual power.

P.S. Compared to iceman, yes Hitsugaya has infinite Stamina...

QFT

#138 Posted by Buckshot (19356 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: Because even if iceman's conscious is spread, it doesn't mean he gets additional soul for every clone made. Since kidou are not here, this seems basically the way to go, even if it is a bit out of character. No hassle of regeneration, or flash freeze, or anything.

Who says he needs additional souls? Even if Hitsugaya gathered up his "soul", spread out as it may be over all the moisture in the area, why would that stop him? Iceman could just make another body wherever his "soul" ended up. And that's if he even needed another one. He's acted while not having a fully formed body before. He doesn't need a human form to attack from. Why would Hitsugaya separating his "soul" from an ice body (assuming it could be done) matter, if Iceman can make an ice body wherever he wants or attack without one?

@frogdog said:

@princearagorn1: hitsugaya doesn't have inifine stamina, not to mention bobby can just ice clones/bodies as a distraction, as he covers the city in ice.

Bobby doesn't have infinite stamina either or have you forgotten that he can only exhaust the full use of his powers for 5 hrs. before he needs to recover. All Tosh has to do is out last hi by that logic... try again.

Where does this "full use of his powers for 5 hours" thing come from? Was this stated somewhere in regards to current Iceman? And do you imagine Hitsugaya flash stepping nonstop for 5 hours? And say he does, why would Iceman be using his powers to their fullest for 5 hours if he knew he couldn't hit his opponent? Seems far more likely to me that he'd let Hitsugaya destroy him and the attack while his guard was down.

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#139 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (25589 posts) - - Show Bio

@buckshot: Considering iceman is a mutant, his powers are more related to physical features, because they stem from genes. But it (at least from what I know) has nearly no relation to his soul, so his soul is no different from any other human, or evolved/mutated human. So like a normal human, he shouldn't be able to connect back to his ice form, or use the power. When ichigo was in non-shinigami soul form, he was having difficulty adjusting. In that state, hitsugaya has the battle in bag.

Basically, iceman, has his conscious in 10 bodies, but his soul hasn't been stated to undergo any change. So if it is pulled out, the clones/ice form powers of body, are about as useful as a human body. None.

#140 Posted by Buckshot (19356 posts) - - Show Bio

@buckshot: Considering iceman is a mutant, his powers are more related to physical features, because they stem from genes. But it (at least from what I know) has nearly no relation to his soul, so his soul is no different from any other human, or evolved/mutated human. So like a normal human, he shouldn't be able to connect back to his ice form, or use the power. When ichigo was in non-shinigami soul form, he was having difficulty adjusting. In that state, hitsugaya has the battle in bag.

Basically, iceman, has his conscious in 10 bodies, but his soul hasn't been stated to undergo any change. So if it is pulled out, the clones/ice form powers of body, are about as useful as a human body. None.

The idea that physical bodies and genes are needed for powers has been discarded in the case of Omega Level mutants. I usually don't put much stock in labels, but the whole point of the label of Omega is that they've transcended their physical limits. Iceman is, when he feels like it, a consciousness that manipulates ice, not a man with ice powers. Playing guessing games as to how an omega level mutant's soul works, if it's different from their consciousness at all, doesn't have a lot of comic backup. I think the quote that goes "You don't have a soul. You ARE a soul. You have a body." is fitting for Iceman. For a being not used to being separate from their body, having your soul removed might take some adjustment (though the fact that you could adjust at all means you're not suddenly defeated), but I don't think that would be the case for Iceman seeing as he's familiar with existing separate from any physical container or avatar (and remaking one whenever he sees fit).

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#141 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (25589 posts) - - Show Bio

@buckshot: For Iceman, his ice form seems to be his body, as in, living ice. So separating human soul from his body should be equivalent with separating bobby's soul from ice body, right?

#142 Posted by Buckshot (19356 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: His ice form is his body when he chooses for it to be his body. He can house his consciousness in other bodies or spread amongst many. Separating his "soul" from his body may do nothing at all. If you notice, I've used "soul" in quotes a couple of times because we don't know exactly what that means in other universes. It may equate to Bobby's consciousness, in which case, it not being connected to an ice body would change absolutely nothing for him. Why don't you post some images of Bleach characters moving souls around for me. I haven't looked at Bleach for a while.

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#143 Posted by Cole_Mercer (271 posts) - - Show Bio

Tosh wins just from the fact that he's a skilled strategist and tactician, something that Bobby lacks. Hell, Tosh doesn't even have to use his abilities on him.

#144 Posted by BMEZY (1264 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1 Being mentally exhausted & physically damned are to different things. And the fact that Ice Man can think to reform after his body evaporated means he could very well attack in the same circumstances.

what you don't understand is that bobby actually doesn't need a body, he can exist and still use the full scope of his powers as nothing but a sentient thought.

#145 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (9275 posts) - - Show Bio

@bmezy said:

@mr_ingenuity said:

@princearagorn1 Being mentally exhausted & physically damned are to different things. And the fact that Ice Man can think to reform after his body evaporated means he could very well attack in the same circumstances.

what you don't understand is that bobby actually doesn't need a body, he can exist and still use the full scope of his powers as nothing but a sentient thought.

Actually I was incline this would be a stomp in favor of iceman, before pulling out of the debate, making the same points you are making(against fanboys).

#146 Edited by Ryanmcfarland (60 posts) - - Show Bio

Toshiro by speed alone iceman is to slow

#147 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (25589 posts) - - Show Bio

@bmezy: I think you were trying to tell that to me, right?

what we have heard is 'iceman can reform as long as there is moisture in the air'. So he is like living ice/water. Even if his body is vapourised, it still exists in gas form. We don't know if he can do in pure soul form, and I'd say it's unlikely that he can, as even omega level mutants are still mutants because of evolved genes and their powers base from them.. However strong you are, without spiritual nature of powers,you still are powerless in soul form. We have no reason to assume that iceman's soul will be any different than a normal teenager, because his powers, even to exist as a conscious, stem from his genes, not his soul. Buckshot, however makes an excellent point about this, and without kidou, this will be extremely tough to do, considering closing in on someone with insane power like iceman can very well end the fight. But considering the huge speed gap.. he could be capable. Leaving out kidous from hitsugaya is really unfair for him, as they could bind, restrict, or destroy iceman's soul from a distance. That's a part of shinigami characters. as his powers mostly based on ice, and iceman slaughters him in potential and variety on using ice.

#148 Posted by uberhikari (2493 posts) - - Show Bio

@bmezy: I think you were trying to tell that to me, right?

what we have heard is 'iceman can reform as long as there is moisture in the air'. So he is like living ice/water. Even if his body is vapourised, it still exists in gas form. We don't know if he can do in pure soul form, and I'd say it's unlikely that he can, as even omega level mutants are still mutants because of evolved genes and their powers base from them.. However strong you are, without spiritual nature of powers,you still are powerless in soul form. We have no reason to assume that iceman's soul will be any different than a normal teenager, because his powers, even to exist as a conscious, stem from his genes, not his soul. Buckshot, however makes an excellent point about this, and without kidou, this will be extremely tough to do, considering closing in on someone with insane power like iceman can very well end the fight. But considering the huge speed gap.. he could be capable. Leaving out kidous from hitsugaya is really unfair for him, as they could bind, restrict, or destroy iceman's soul from a distance. That's a part of shinigami characters. as his powers mostly based on ice, and iceman slaughters him in potential and variety on using ice.

You're wrong here on multiple counts.

First, the major advantage that Bobby has in this fight is his ability to control the battlefield for both offensive and defensive purposes. Iceman can just lower the temperature of the area around him to absolute zero as soon as the fight starts, which would effectively negate a speed blitz by Hitsugaya. Or, even if Hitsugaya manages to speed blitz, Bobby could then lower the temperature of the surrounding area to absolute zero in an attempt negate Hitsgaya's speed advantage for the duration of the fight.

Second, while Hitsugaya is asserted to be an expert at kido, his feats using kido are extremely paltry. In fact, off the top of my head, I can't remember him doing anything really impressive with kido. Moreover, there are no kido spells in Bleach that allow you to destroy a person's soul from a distance. Additionally, while there are kido spells that allow the user to restrict or bind somebody those don't work on a person's soul; they've only been shown to work on someone's actual body; they wouldn't work on Bobby because he can simply reconstruct a new body and transfer his consciousness to it.

#149 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (25589 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1 said:

@bmezy: I think you were trying to tell that to me, right?

what we have heard is 'iceman can reform as long as there is moisture in the air'. So he is like living ice/water. Even if his body is vapourised, it still exists in gas form. We don't know if he can do in pure soul form, and I'd say it's unlikely that he can, as even omega level mutants are still mutants because of evolved genes and their powers base from them.. However strong you are, without spiritual nature of powers,you still are powerless in soul form. We have no reason to assume that iceman's soul will be any different than a normal teenager, because his powers, even to exist as a conscious, stem from his genes, not his soul. Buckshot, however makes an excellent point about this, and without kidou, this will be extremely tough to do, considering closing in on someone with insane power like iceman can very well end the fight. But considering the huge speed gap.. he could be capable. Leaving out kidous from hitsugaya is really unfair for him, as they could bind, restrict, or destroy iceman's soul from a distance. That's a part of shinigami characters. as his powers mostly based on ice, and iceman slaughters him in potential and variety on using ice.

You're wrong here on multiple counts.

First, the major advantage that Bobby has in this fight is his ability to control the battlefield for both offensive and defensive purposes. Iceman can just lower the temperature of the area around him to absolute zero as soon as the fight starts, which would effectively negate a speed blitz by Hitsugaya. Or, even if Hitsugaya manages to speed blitz, Bobby could then lower the temperature of the surrounding area to absolute zero in an attempt negate Hitsgaya's speed advantage for the duration of the fight.

Second, while Hitsugaya is asserted to be an expert at kido, his feats using kido are extremely paltry. In fact, off the top of my head, I can't remember him doing anything really impressive with kido. Moreover, there are no kido spells in Bleach that allow you to destroy a person's soul from a distance. Additionally, while there are kido spells that allow the user to restrict or bind somebody those don't work on a person's soul; they've only been shown to work on someone's actual body; they wouldn't work on Bobby because he can simply reconstruct a new body and transfer his consciousness to it.

I may be wrong, or right, but you're not right in any way either. You don't 'effectively negate speed blitz' by doing something, you get speed blitzed before you can do anything at all. And after getting separated from ice form, bobby isn't going to do anything at all. There is no stated reason that his soul should be stronger than an average person. Bobby can do a lot when connected to his body, even if the body is in vapourised state, but without any connection to ice, he's not doing anything. It's like saying we can still punch/eat after we've been separated from our body. Reforming, creating clones, controlling ice, are all based in bobby's body, mutated human. It's never stated to be related to spiritual energy.

Kidous are anyway banned for the fight.

Yes, Hitsugaya hasn't used kidou that much, only thing I can recall is putting an unbreakable-from-outside barrier on hinamori. Being a captain, and a stated expert in kidou, he should be able to use low level kidos. As in, the ones even third seats and lieutenants use without any form of enchantment.

About Everything in bleach is on destroying/binding your souls. About all kidous shown were used on people's shinigami form only. Or hollows/arrancars are corrupted souls as well. Kidous seem to work fine on them. In short, they work on souls. Try again.

#150 Posted by theONEtaichou (1600 posts) - - Show Bio

@frogdog said:

Your dismissing bobby's feats with poor rebuttals, how is hitsugaya freezing his grandma in his sleep, more impressive than freezing a nuclear reactors within seconds? That's not even getting to the fact that bobby can freeze a whole city, with the potential to cover the whole world. You haven't proven anything that shows hitsugaya being the superior ice manipulater, other than mention that he's Shinigami. Spiritual pressure didn't even kill ichgo's human powerless friends, what chance will have against an omega mutant. Frost Giants are the reason why there's a cold country in Asgard, implying they can't measure to Hitsugaya would downplaying them.

First off Juggernaut main source of power is from a powerful magical being, second both hulk and juggernaut have tagged hero/villians faster than hitsugaya, not to mention that you still haven't shown something that shows hitsugaya being superior, you mentioning Tia Harribel only proves that Hitsugaya isn't better at ice manipulation. Also I find it funny that you bring up Iceman not winning against hulk or Juggernaut, considering that Hitsugaya's track record...

I am not dismissing Bobby's feats. I agree with them, I just don't believe they would garner a win for him over Toshiro. I used the leaking freezing spiritual pressure of Toshiro to re-inforce the point of his high reaitsu, compared to even high level captain shinigamis which was a counter to Bobby being compared to a frost giant by Thor. It wasn't a counter point to flash freezing a nuclear reactor. As for freezing a whole city, Toshiro waas afraid to use his Hyōten Hyakkasō, due to being afraid of killing the injured vice captains and instead enveloped the portion of the city where he was fighting the tres espada, even changing the weather (Starrk is surprised by it and talks about Toshirou with Shunsui). It is also shown that without his control (as well as the mere release) it changes the weather of the Seiretei (a city, bleach manga Chapter 132). The only reason Toshiro has never demonstrated to actually freeze a city is because he has never had to.

As for Ichigo's friends they have high reaitsu as well, Chad and Inoue being the most powerful. The others due to hanging around Ichigo (and his lack of control of his immense reiatsu) developed high reiatsu as well, evidenced by them being able to even see shinigamis as well as as stand in Aizen's presence. It has nothing to do with being human, omega level mutant or not. Without some level of reiatsu Bobby would die (hence the reason reiatsu crush is not allowed in the OP).

Also not every frost giant is Laufey, many shown over the years couldn't take Toshiro either, nor Bobby for that matter. I fail to see what being compared to them means.

As for hulk and juggs, them tagging faster people is PIS and you know it mate. People always bring up hulk fighting surfer/ tagging quicksilver yet spiderman, captain america dance around them consistently. These guys have no super speed to speak of, fighting them gives no experience against someone of a captain shinigami, friend. And mate, I mention Tia because her power worked directly against Toshiro (as well as Bobby's to a degree). Toshiro fought his equal (I would put Tia above him actually but that's neither here or there) who had a power that directly went against his power (he would turn things to ice, she would turn them back to water), the equivalent of say superman fighting a superman-esque villian powered and using kryptonite. Also mate, I brought Bobby not winning against juggs/hulk because people were stating that Bobby's experience fighting them = enough experience to fight someone of Toshiro's level, which is not true. And his track record is quite good, he has won more often than not, stalemated at worst and besides Aizen rarely ever lost.