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#51 Posted by Inconvenient_Truth (2362 posts) - - Show Bio

Ice Man

#52 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (7230 posts) - - Show Bio

@omgomgwtfwtf said:

Toshiro via kido or soul removal. People forget he's a shinigami. Soul removal is a basic technique for them.

The Rules:

5) Toshiro is not allowed to use any kido spells.

#53 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (16131 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: I didn't say he couldn't reform.How much time did he take? I will not be able to find a scan, but I recall that he said it took quite a toll on him. Perhaps you could look through your issues?

And, even without all that, soul removal is rather easy for a shinigami, rukia did it to ichigo all the time. If bobby's soul is removed, he won't be connected with his body anymore..

#54 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (7230 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: There lies the problem Iceman does not need a body to live standard for Omega level mutants. Only needing one thought to finish the battle. On the other hand Hitsugaya has no Idea who Iceman is and will go for the killing blow(sword slash, zanpakuto attack, bankai etc) but it will take more than one attack to finish the job.

#55 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16131 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: Obviously, he doesn't. But if he's separated from his ice body, he isn't going to be able to fight. And the only time we have seen toushiro attack recklessly is aizen. But of course, it was God damn aizen's trolling, which isn't possible to replicate. He far outclasses bobby in fighting experience, even if he looks like a child, and he's known to trod cautiously, too. Not to mention, I haven't seen iceman's speed feats, while toushiro kept up with halibel, the third espada, so has massive amount of speed. it's not going to be that easy to freeze him..

#56 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (7230 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: Speed feats are not needed when you are able to freezes a city below temperatures any form of life can survive, with a thought.

Never seen Toshiro move faster than some one could think or in all of Bleach for that matter.

#57 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (6954 posts) - - Show Bio
#58 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16131 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: Faster than some one could think? Byakuya was doing it casually,not even in shikai, and that's ichigo, of all people he blitzed. Sorry the video is long, skip to 9:00. He doesn't even know what happened. And toushiro is one of the fastest characters in bleach..

How exactly is he going to freeze someone like that?

#59 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (7230 posts) - - Show Bio

@omgomgwtfwtf: It still backs the Idea Iceman can and has thought without use of his body & this is years away from his current abilities.

@princearagorn1: That faster than ichigo could react not think, clearly Ichigo was thinking in between his movements. Plus I don't think anyone in Bleach is above Quicksilver a know fail speedster.

#60 Posted by xeon1cs (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@carter_esque said:

Tosh could win this fight but Idk if he could actually kill Iceman. I mean, the guy can reform from basically nothing! Tosh would have to endure Drake until he wears himself out and then go in for the fatal blow. Toshiro has the edge in speed and skill but he's clearly not as durable as Drake.

Wear himself out? It's morals off, bro. He instantly rips the water out of Hitsugaya, or flash freezes him. It's not really easy to beat morals off Iceman. Well...it's not easy period.

What does a shinigami's anatomy consist of anyway? They don't have the same anatomy as humans so I'm not sure that Iceman could do that to him. I remember when Aizen faked his death in Soul Society, Capt. Unohana did an autopsy and discovered that one his organs were out of place or something like that. If they have organs and can bleed then I guess that their soul bodies are similar to a human's.

I just assumed that by the fact they bleed, they must possess some level of moisture in their bodies.

#61 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (16131 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: Ichigo wasn't thinking when his sword was broken, he was thinking after that.

And hst characters utilize their full speed in combat. unlike most speedsters, who don't have enough reflexes to keep up, and so can be tripped, or tagged by far slower people.

#62 Posted by OmgOmgWtfWtf (6954 posts) - - Show Bio

@omgomgwtfwtf: It still backs the Idea Iceman can and has thought without use of his body & this is years away from his current abilities.

It's still non-canon irregardless. People assume Ice-Man is super powerful just because he has the label 'Omega'. Clearly he's not that powerful given that Mystique managed to beat him two times. Showing evidence of a future Iceman is misleading. He still feels pain while in ice form and it takes substantial amount of effort for him to reform. His powers, as of current, depend on his mental fortitude. His potential power and current power are vastly different.

@xeon1cs: Shinigami are composed of spirit particles, which are considered separate from physical matter. How they differ from normal matter has not been explained.

#63 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (7230 posts) - - Show Bio

@omgomgwtfwtf said:

@mr_ingenuity said:

@omgomgwtfwtf: It still backs the Idea Iceman can and has thought without use of his body & this is years away from his current abilities.

It's still non-canon irregardless. People assume Ice-Man is super powerful just because he has the label 'Omega'. Clearly he's not that powerful given that Mystique managed to beat him two times. Showing evidence of a future Iceman is misleading. He still feels pain while in ice form and it takes substantial amount of effort for him to reform. His powers, as of current, depend on his mental fortitude. His potential power and current power are vastly different.

What I'm getting at is he does not need to reform to attack if all he needs it to think to rebuild & freeze water molecules. But disregarded the non canon scans if you will.

Yes she beat him, but does Toshiro have the same advantages of that fight? Nope.

This is a morals off fight & Iceman has flash frozen huge bodies of water & people. Meaning his attacks are more lethal & cover a wider area.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/10/103201/2053391-1.jpg

@princearagorn1: I say he could not react for the simple reason later he is able to see Byakuya movement & this is reinforced by Renji later in the episode.

#64 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16131 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: Obviously. After his training with urahara, his stats skyrocketed. that's why he could see it. But I may have mistaken your meaning. What simple reason are you referring to exactly?

#65 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (7230 posts) - - Show Bio
#66 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16131 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: Renji has seen it thousands of times, as he says, and he knew what to do. Not to mention he's a vice captain himself, and without limitation, was on par with urahara trained shikai ichigo. He being able to react at that speed isn't really that much of a surprise. That doesn't mean bobby will be able to catch a shumpo user, though.

#67 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (7230 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: Now we can conclude that it's faster than reaction speed not thought. Why we posted video in the first place. And going back to my previous point Hitsugaya has no defense from it.

This is a morals off fight & Iceman has flash frozen huge bodies of water & people. Meaning his attacks are more lethal & cover a wider area.

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/10/103201/2053391-1.jpg

#68 Posted by Carter_esque (6447 posts) - - Show Bio
#69 Posted by alcoholbob (1191 posts) - - Show Bio

Toshiro is immortal as long as there are fan girls, so I say he wins.

#70 Posted by Carter_esque (6447 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: Obviously, he doesn't. But if he's separated from his ice body, he isn't going to be able to fight. And the only time we have seen toushiro attack recklessly is aizen. But of course, it was God damn aizen's trolling, which isn't possible to replicate. He far outclasses bobby in fighting experience, even if he looks like a child, and he's known to trod cautiously, too. Not to mention, I haven't seen iceman's speed feats, while toushiro kept up with halibel, the third espada, so has massive amount of speed. it's not going to be that easy to freeze him..

Exactly. How can Bobby even follow Tosh to flash freeze him??

#71 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16131 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: If you didn't notice, bobby tagged legion first for that. He's not even getting close to toushiro with his speed. What's to stop toushiro to shumpo around and keep slashing at bobby till he's cut badly like he did to the gamer?

#72 Edited by Mr_Ingenuity (7230 posts) - - Show Bio

@carter_esque said:

I knew that Iceman was immensely powerful but I had no idea that he was OP'd. I don't get why he doesn't just solo most of X-Men's rogues gallery with his abilities. I still say that Tosh takes this though.

First off it's against the rules to make matches with winner in mind(biased op is biased) causes for spite matches.

Second you have no feats that show Hitsugaya can resist Icemans lowest temp or 1 shot him before he flash freezes the battlefield. At this point your opinion is irrelevant (until you back it by feats).

@princearagorn1: No he didn't he got in closes to focus being his first time doing that & he does not need that here.I have most of my Iceman scans on my other computer but here Rogue flash freezing water with Icemans power.

https://dcomixologyssl.sslcs.cdngc.net/i/1145/26970/4f707d1255150ed2003375010a786b1c.jpg?h=3bbe026fc90aafc1b1b3168345280276

#73 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16131 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: Flash freezing water =/= freezing someone with massive speed. As I said, hitsugaya could repeatedly strike him, and with his speed, bobby won't be able to tag him.

#74 Posted by Mr_Ingenuity (7230 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: Your blatantly ignoring my points. What's the point of trying to catch a person it you can clearly destroy the battle field with the unsuspecting enemy and walk away? If you reasonably answer this question you should know this is mismatch. If you can't I'm finished.

#75 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16131 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: What? I am ignoring your points? Destroying the battle field doesn't mean you win the fight, pal, you have to beat your enemy (ask frieza lol). And unsuspecting enemy? Why would he be unsuspecting, this is a battle, he's not going to be staring at the sky so that iceman can sneak up on him. How do you propose iceman freeze someone who is far faster, and entirely outclassing him in experience, fighting skills? By flash freezing the ground? Shinigami can fly as well if he does so. And what if he decides to just shumpo behind him and separate bobby from his body? The fight is pretty much over if he does so.

How exactly does this sound like a mismatch, you're not providing any reason why he could freeze hitsugaya, just that he can freeze ground/water around him and people who he has tagged. Why would toshiro just stand there and be frozen? He will go out of the range the moment bobby starts doing that, and keep closing in repeatedly.

#76 Posted by Carter_esque (6447 posts) - - Show Bio

Toshiro is immortal as long as there are fan girls, so I say he wins.

What??

#77 Edited by Carter_esque (6447 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: Flash freezing water =/= freezing someone with massive speed. As I said, hitsugaya could repeatedly strike him, and with his speed, bobby won't be able to tag him.

QFT

#78 Posted by alcoholbob (1191 posts) - - Show Bio

@alcoholbob said:

Toshiro is immortal as long as there are fan girls, so I say he wins.

What??

He is always at the top of the popularity charts, just like Kuchiki Byakuya. They always come back from the brink of death due to sheer will of fandom.

#79 Posted by Carter_esque (6447 posts) - - Show Bio

@mr_ingenuity: What? I am ignoring your points? Destroying the battle field doesn't mean you win the fight, pal, you have to beat your enemy (ask frieza lol). And unsuspecting enemy? Why would he be unsuspecting, this is a battle, he's not going to be staring at the sky so that iceman can sneak up on him. How do you propose iceman freeze someone who is far faster, and entirely outclassing him in experience, fighting skills? By flash freezing the ground? Shinigami can fly as well if he does so. And what if he decides to just shumpo behind him and separate bobby from his body? The fight is pretty much over if he does so.

How exactly does this sound like a mismatch, you're not providing any reason why he could freeze hitsugaya, just that he can freeze ground/water around him and people who he has tagged. Why would toshiro just stand there and be frozen? He will go out of the range the moment bobby starts doing that, and keep closing in repeatedly.

Makes sense to me

#80 Posted by Carter_esque (6447 posts) - - Show Bio

@carter_esque said:

I knew that Iceman was immensely powerful but I had no idea that he was OP'd. I don't get why he doesn't just solo most of X-Men's rogues gallery with his abilities. I still say that Tosh takes this though.

First off it's against the rules to make matches with winner in mind(biased op is biased) causes for spite matches.

Second you have no feats that show Hitsugaya can resist Icemans lowest temp or 1 shot him before he flash freezes the battlefield. At this point your opinion is irrelevant (until you back it by feats).

@princearagorn1: No he didn't he got in closes to focus being his first time doing that & he does not need that here.I have most of my Iceman scans on my other computer but here Rogue flash freezing water with Icemans power.

https://dcomixologyssl.sslcs.cdngc.net/i/1145/26970/4f707d1255150ed2003375010a786b1c.jpg?h=3bbe026fc90aafc1b1b3168345280276

This isn't a spite match. I don't have to agree with you just bc you think (w/ emphasis on 'think') you've proven something with your comic scans. All you've really shown me is Iceman displaying his power. I can find scans of Toshiro displaying his abilities that wouldn't sway your opinion either. I posted a list of Toshiro's abilities earlier... did you care to read any of it? That list doesn't display his feats visually but it does detail exactly what he's capable of. I used a list and you've used scans... what have either proven for the sake of this debate?? NOTHING.

Iceman won't be able to react to Toshiro's movements and after a long, hard battle, Tosh will either exhaust Iceman's powers and then one-shot him with any number of techniques or remove his soul. Iceman can't win this. Nice try though

#81 Edited by jamesisaacs (213 posts) - - Show Bio

Hitsugaya can't be frozen by a mere mutated mortal. Only magic or supernatural ice-based attacks can do any real harm him due to his unique physiology. He's infinitely faster, infinitely stronger and much smarter given he is a child prodigy (genius).

#82 Edited by NeonGameWave (7712 posts) - - Show Bio

Iceman slaughters. He is more versatile when it comes to the manipulation of ice and Toshiro wouldn`t be able to put him down.

#83 Posted by xeon1cs (1479 posts) - - Show Bio

@carter_esque: Who cares if he's faster? Bobby instantly freezes the entire battlefield to near absolute zero.

He has absolutely no way to harm Iceman.

#84 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (16131 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs: What does freezing the battlefield has to do with freezing hitsugaya? When has bobby ever frozen someone with combat speed of toshiro? Flash freezing ground =/= flash freezing opponent who is massively faster. And we're not allowing soul crush, or kidou.

#85 Edited by Carter_esque (6447 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1 said:

@xeon1cs: What does freezing the battlefield has to do with freezing hitsugaya? When has bobby ever frozen someone with combat speed of toshiro? Flash freezing ground =/= flash freezing opponent who is massively faster. And we're not allowing soul crush, or kidou.

I didn't put that soul removal isn't allowed, unless it involves using kido. But still, soul removal should only be a last resort for Toshiro.

#86 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16131 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1 said:

@xeon1cs: What does freezing the battlefield has to do with freezing hitsugaya? When has bobby ever frozen someone with combat speed of toshiro? Flash freezing ground =/= flash freezing opponent who is massively faster. And we're not allowing soul crush, or kidou.

I didn't put that soul removal isn't allowed, unless it involves using kido...

No, I mean, the normal reiatsu crush, just presence killing untrained souls.

#87 Posted by Regal_Rumble_Man (874 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1:Not really

there are scans of the internet of Iceman going zero, and toshie is the more popular one with kids nowadays

#88 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (16131 posts) - - Show Bio

@regal_rumble_man said:

@princearagorn1:toshie is the more popular one with kids nowadays

seriously? 0.0

I mean, I know he's awesome and all, but more popular than iceman? that's something new..

#89 Posted by Regal_Rumble_Man (874 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: actually ...

bleach kicked out of HST

plot derailed after rukia

series ending soon...

but for some reason teens still read dat manga

#90 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (16131 posts) - - Show Bio

@regal_rumble_man: It's tite kubo after all.. as I said, I wouldn't be surprised if bleach returns in hst, it was there first.. Things are actually getting back to interesting.. (well, taking out ichigo the quincy hybrid)

#91 Posted by Regal_Rumble_Man (874 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: I would be, since they jumped off the shark and everything seems to be centralized to ichigo that there is no character development for his buddies (chad, orihime, uryu). We want color, they give us black. We want background, they give us white. We want some sense, kubo self inserts his philosophies.

we want background and Ichigo is a hollow-quincy-shinigami-mulatto

It won't touch the light it once had

#92 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (16131 posts) - - Show Bio

@regal_rumble_man: Nah, Add in kenpachi's release, aizen/urahara's ban kai, ishida's developement as quincy, and it will make an interesting mix. There are a lot of things that are to be done yet.

But as you say, ichigo's development is frustrating. I was half expecting to have the new chapter declare genryusai as a contender for ichigo's father. Hmf. Btw we should discuss this on manga/anime thread, I think.. it's off topic.

#93 Edited by Regal_Rumble_Man (874 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: the pool of ideas keep leaking, after kenpachi = then what? after all their bankai's = then what? it is the same formule being cut and dried all over again

didn't he say bankai is rare? every frickin shinigami with a name has one

Hitsugaya can't be frozen by a mere mutated mortal. Only magic or supernatural ice-based attacks can do any real harm him due to his unique physiology. He's infinitely faster, infinitely stronger and much smarter given he is a child prodigy (genius).

whoa easy there cowboy, he got shanked by gin during their first meeting

and are you basing this on favoritism?

#94 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16131 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: the pool of ideas keep leaking, after kenpachi = then what? after all their bankai's = then what? it is the same formule being cut and dried all over again

didn't he say bankai is rare? every frickin shinigami with a name has one

@jamesisaacs said:

Hitsugaya can't be frozen by a mere mutated mortal. Only magic or supernatural ice-based attacks can do any real harm him due to his unique physiology. He's infinitely faster, infinitely stronger and much smarter given he is a child prodigy (genius).

whoa easy there cowboy, he got shanked by gin during their first meeting

and are you basing this on favoritism?

replying the first one on off topic.. as for the second one,

Gin isn't a mere mortal, he's himself a child prodigy shinigami if I recall right, and the same gin later kept ban kai/vizard ichigo over the ropes, and got closer to killing aizen than whole Gotei 13 combined did. It's not a shame in getting shanked by him lol.

#95 Posted by Regal_Rumble_Man (874 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: the gin in that chapter with hinamori and aizen (before kubo gave him better showings), not the ones after or the ones in flashback. 'Prodigy' is a very oddterm in Bleach, shinji is quite dumb for a supposed prodigy.

#96 Posted by PrinceAragorn1 (16131 posts) - - Show Bio

@regal_rumble_man: So what? He didn't receive any known power boost in the given time, I'm perfectly sure we haven't been shown any. It's not like he did some special training and became better after the hinamori arc. And when was shinji ever called a prodigy? Genuinely curious.. I have no idea. Urahara is one thing, but shinji??? Only ones that were called a prodigy were toshiro and ichimaru, as far as i recall. But I haven't read the old bleach in a while..

#97 Posted by rcranium (85 posts) - - Show Bio

Hitsugaya is extremely over rated. His attacks are slow and he calls out the name of the attack telegraphing it. His bankai is very time limited.

#98 Posted by Regal_Rumble_Man (874 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: 5th division >.>

@rcranium said:

Hitsugaya is extremely over rated. His attacks are slow and he calls out the name of the attack telegraphing it. His bankai is very time limited.

I like you

#99 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (16131 posts) - - Show Bio

@regal_rumble_man: What about fifth division? Didn't get you :(

@rcranium said:

Hitsugaya is extremely over rated. His attacks are slow and he calls out the name of the attack telegraphing it. His bankai is very time limited.

Doesn't using the name of attacks got to do with the attack power? Like an unnamed getsuga was much weaker than a named one? Ichigo mentioned it when he used it first iirc.. And he isn't that slow, he was perfectly capable of keeping up with the third espada.. And held back so that he wouldn't harm the wounded members.. And one of the most effective shumpo users, if you see his fights. But I do see your point, he hasn't even matured his ban kai yet, the fan girl club tends to overestimate him..

#100 Posted by Regal_Rumble_Man (874 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1: those dudes supposed to be good in everything (pretty vague)