Iceman vs. + Storm vs. + Alpha Level Mutants

I was going to this as Iceman vs. Storm but I there is more that I want to know about both characters and also about the power levels of certain mutants based on a debate I had with certain other users on the forum. The rundown goes like this.....

1.Iceman vs. Storm
a. What ways could Storm defeat Iceman, if at all?
b. Is Storm more powerful than Iceman?

2.Storm vs. Omega Level Mutants
a.Are there any Omega Level Mutants that Storm is more powerful than?
b.Are there any Omega Level Mutants she could defeat? (Aside from Elixir) (Omega Level Mutants are: Legion, Vulcan, Iceman, Franklin Richards, Jean Grey, Nate Grey, Quentin Quire, Mister M, Hope, &

3.Alpha Level Mutants vs. Omega Level Mutants
a. Are their any Omega Level Mutants that are technically weaker power wise than any Alpha Level Mutants

There are no rules. I want to explore any variables there could possibly be in these scenarios.

Shouldn't this be in the General Discussion Board? It's more question-based than Battle-based. Then again, you are the moderator.

He's all powerful!

Prepare to be completely owned and humiliated!

@vance_astro:

1a. As her powers currently are, she couldn't.

1b. If she could surprise him, and incapacitate him, by rendering him unconscious, while he is in his purely human form. Once he takes on his Ice form, she couldn't.

2a. Given that Omega-level iirc denotes "potentially limitless power", and the fact that Storm is only a potential Omega-level, and thus cannot tap into her full potential power, I would say no. But I guess it depends on your definition.

2b. Depends on the circumstances. Under the right circumstances, she could potentially defeat all of them. Just like, under different circumstances, any of them, including Elixir, could defeat Storm.

3a. Depends on your definition, but for the reason I listed in 2a., I would say no.

@sirmethos said:

Let's say this, if it was just a random encounter do you think Storm could take Vulcan or Legion or someone like Mister M without the rest of her team? I know she has no chance against Franklin,Jean,Quire,Rachel or Nate.

@yourneighborhoodcomicgeek said:

I thought about putting this in the Mutants forum or something like that but I am actually inquiring about at least in Storm's case I am inquiring about who she could and could not beat based on her power level in comparison.

Seeing how Vulcan has survived some pretty hefty damage(Black Bolt's scream being a good example), I just don't see how she could take him down.

Fair enough.

@vance_astro: "Let's say this, if it was just a random encounter do you think Storm could take Vulcan or Legion or someone like Mister M without the rest of her team? I know she has no chance against Franklin,Jean,Quire,Rachel or Nate."

If she got lucky, yes she could. She would have better chances if she had the element of surprise though.

What people tend to forget, with various matches, is that killing the opponent is not the only way of winning. Many times it's not even the most effective one.

Vulcan and Mister M, have both proven that they would be capable of surviving anything she throws at them, regardless of the circumstances. But she could still render them unconscious, or otherwise incapacitate them without resorting to killing them.

As I said, under the right circumstances, she could defeat any of the Omega-class mutants.

Also, Mister M and Legion, are both more powerful than Quire, Rachel and Jean, and possibly Nate, so why would you be certain that Storm cannot defeat those, while having doubts about Mister M and Legion?

@man_of_miracles said:

That's true. Do you know if Vulcan is still capable of shutting off other mutants powers?

What ways would she be capable of incapacitating Vulcan or Mister M? Removing the air from their lungs or something like that?

I wasn't certain that Storm could defeat any Omega Level Mutant ACCEPT maybe Elixir. Vulcan & Mister M are the two i'm the least knowledgeable of, that's why I asked my question the way I did.

1 Iceman

b No she can't beat him unless its like sneak attack while in human form but even Iceman can do this .

2 She probably has the potential

a I think Elixir at best she has a chance to be more powerful than him

b No storm couldn't beat any omega level characters as most of them can one shot her .

3 Omega all the way.

a Yes as i'd hold Apocalypse over some omega class characters since he has tons of variety on his side .

@hellionvulcan said:

Is it possible to knock Iceman out while in Ice Form?

He used to since Apocalypse has beat him by sheer force before but Iceman had no clue he could turn into mist or anything back then .

I can't find the page before this but Iceman was fused in a wall .

current Iceman has defeated Thor like he was nothing to him so yea storm could handle 90's Iceman but current nope .

Storm has some chance against Rachel and Jean they have really inconsistent feats about durability, no matter what they will take majority but Storm could have some wins from them

@vance_astro:

Examples of an Alpha-Level Mutant..?

@heraldofganthet said:

Storm, Scarlet Witch, Cyclops, Gambit, Emma Frost, Psylocke, Magneto, Namor, Aurora, Arclight, etc.

@marlboroman said:

Does Storm have any mental defense?

I remember Juggernaut KO'd an older version of Iceman while in Ice form, but it would seem to me it doesn't make a whole lost of sense that you can KO him by force at this current stage when he can be broken into pieces and and switch between the different states of water (ice,water,mist).

@vance_astro:

Storm, Scarlet Witch, Cyclops, Gambit, Emma Frost, Psylocke, Magneto, Namor, Aurora, Arclight, etc.

I see. Marvel uses a different classification than DC does. If you don't mind, could you tell me the major difference between an Alpha and an Omega in Marvel terms?

In DC, an "Alpha-Level" threat would include many of the founding members of the JLA, Captain Atom, several members of the JSA (like Jakeem Thunder, Alan Scott, and/or Stargirl) etc... The "Omega-Level" threat designation over there is almost exclusively reserved for villains or heroes that turn evil (like the Monarch, for example).

Any help you can provide would be helpful, because many of those Alpha mutants are pretty darned powerful in their own right.

@heraldofganthet said:

Limits. Alpha Level Mutants have caps or limitations on their abilities, Omega Level Mutants don't. For most Omega's their only limit is their experience with the use of their power, their age, their intelligence or their imagination. Scarlet Witch is a reality manipulator and I think alot of people think she's actually believe she's more powerful than some Omegas but her reality manipulation I believe comes from Chaos Magic which was given to her by Chthon, that's not her actual mutant power.

@vance_astro: All he answers to your questions about Storm and her powers can.be found n her power discussion thread.

Storm has a high level of resistance to telepathy due to a combination of her indomitable will and the hyper static synapses within her brain. Shadow King, Xavier, Jean Grey, Rachel, Emma Frost, Elias Bogan have all been countered directly or indirectly by Storm at one of her career. This is a consistent level of resistance. She also countered high level tk i.e Psylocke, Candra

As far as Iceman in concerned, even in his recent incarnation he has been shown to be susceptible to pain. We've already had this discussion and Storm has already knocked him out twice with her lightning. With efficient force he can still be knocked out. She could also just use the process of electrolysis and completely split his atoms altogether. She's also highly resistance to every form of attack Iceman has, I may even argue her being completely immune.

Any omega level mutant that requires air to breath falls under her dominion. It's as easy as evacuating the air from their lungs, a technique she has perfected over the years and is not afraid to use this as a tactic.

Fixed

@roddy010 said:

Where?

@vance_astro: Also besides the internet Storm has never been officially labeled as anything besides potential omega level since the true scope of her powers.are still unknown.

@roddy010 said:

No disrespect, but if this was any other character but Storm and this wasn't comicvine, I would probably go to a thread about her powers to learn about her powers. That's why I made a thread instead.

I'm not arguing whether he's susceptible to pain, pain isn't required to knock someone out. I'm asking if it makes sense that Iceman can be knocked out by force or if Iceman has become victim to PIS because his powers are hard to write against. Like how Thor almost always seems weaker or falls to plot devices when he's with the Avengers because otherwise most of their enemies would easily be taken out by him. I'm not sure about Storm being immune to anything Iceman could do to her but I'm not the most knowledgeable of either character so I would hope someone would provide some incite for the Iceman side.

@roddy010: I wouldn't say she's completely immuned

I agree with most of this. Except for this "highly resistance to every form of attack Iceman has, I may even argue her being completely immune" - I disagree with the immuned part.

@vance_astro: Despite being highly resistant to elemental attacks (due to her connection to the earth's energy that governs the weather patterns) I do believe that she can and would be overcome by Bobby's proficient control over moisture via thermokinesis..I doubt there's little Storm can do to protect herself from his more "deadlier" attacks.

Vance.. you a beast. I was about to put everything you just said. a lot of people don't know that her potential was enhanced by the presence of Chthon's energies and without him she would probably be a step above domino or longshot haha.

but there are some alphas that can beat omegas due to experience. but the omegas have more potential overall whereas the alphas will eventual cap out on there abilities

a. What ways could Storm defeat Iceman, if at all?

We have seen lightning recently be effective in hurting him so I think she can. Since his progression to full on ice form I have still seen him frequently hurt by energy. He was hurt by Scott's beam during the Onslaught story(actually KO'd IIRC), hurt by a laser beam during Wild Kingdom, hurt M-11 ray blast in X-Men vs Agents of Atlas, and recently hurt by Storm's lightning in New Avengers.I think he does have a vulnerability, not so much to physical force that shatters his form, but to energy effecting his physical form. I'd also be curious how an electrolysis field to split the water molecules that compose his ice form would effect him. Since she also controls moisture on a much greater range than Iceman in general (he typically doesn't have planetary range when he freezes moisture) I think she also has the ability to limit his powers by removing the moisture from all around him. Without him targeting the moisture in her body, which I don't think he'd do from the start, she has the power to limit the effectiveness of his powers.

b. Is Storm more powerful than Iceman?

Based on over all feats and type of power in general she is IMO. She has multiple high end feats, including global feats in continuity, what she did in the galactic core by manipulating the energy of millions of stars and planets is more impressive, defeating the Trion, and hosting Eternity to show strength of her will and spirit.

a.Are there any Omega Level Mutants that Storm is more powerful than?

I think she is more powerful than QQ and Iceman at this point. The rest I think have more impressive feats that show that they are generally more powerful than her.

b.Are there any Omega Level Mutants she could defeat? (Aside from Elixir) (Omega Level Mutants are: Legion, Vulcan, Iceman, Franklin Richards, Jean Grey, Nate Grey, Quentin Quire, Mister M, Hope

I think so. The ones I think she has a chance to beat are Iceman (based on his being effected by energy), Jean Grey, QQ and Hope, since they have human level durability and can be KO'd if they aren't ready to defend against her. Current Nate Grey is not a challenge for her really, but at his peak I think he would beat Storm. I don't know enough about Franklin to know if he falls into that category as well. Legion has been hurt by Storm and others depending on the power(s) that he is wielding at the time, so she has the potential to win there, but I think he would beat Storm under most circumstances. I

a. Are their any Omega Level Mutants that are technically weaker power wise than any Alpha Level Mutants.

I think Magneto and Storm (though I have never seen them labeled officially), and Rachel Grey (though I thought she was mentioned as an omega at one point in the 80's or 90's) have more impressive feats of power that support them being more powerful than Iceman, who has recently started coming into more impressive feats of raw power, and QQ.

@vance_astro: Scarlet Witch isn't a reality warper, she's a powerful Probability Manipulator. It's a fine, but distinct, difference.

Also, Gambit, while I don't recall him being officially named as such, also shows all of the indicators of being Omega-level, at his full potential(alá the New Sun), namely the "potentially limitless energy", potential immortality via leaving his human body(in gambit's case, by transforming to energy), and the ability to manipulate matter(or energy) at a molecular/sub-atomic level.

There are also a few mutants that are, either obviously through their powers, or by proxy via comments made about them, clearly Omega-level, such as Hyperstorm, Mimic, and Synch.

@sirmethos said:

You can't create your own reality, birth children out of thin air, bring people back from the dead and take away and give back powers with the manipulation of "probability". Probability manipulation is what Longshot & Domino have where they effect the "probability" that something will happen. Scarlet Witch can completely change things at will.

Why would Mimic be Omega? I thought there was limits to his Mimics?

I'll pose to you, the same question I posed to Roddy. Do you think Iceman actually has some weakness to energy..OR, does he simply pose a dilemma for writers? Iceman has been around for quite some time, I would think there would be something stated on panel or at least in a bio about him having some type of weakness against energy. The reason I ask this question is because in all my years of reading comics I've seen certain abilities consistently underplayed in comics and I've also seen powerful members of certain teams be taken out by plot devices or a writers disregard for the characters powers because they can't think of any other way to validate the opponent as a threat.

@thunderbolt30 said:

Could you elaborate on what you mean by this?

@vance_astro: Difficult to say for certain but I haven't seen any reason why he shouldn't be vulnerable. I don't think all energy based assaults fall under the same category as his high resistance to physical force. Meaning getting shocked by intense electrical current vs getting blown apart by the concussive force of a bolt having two different effects on him. I agree that it would be more clear if it was specifically stated on panel or apart of a handbook bio, but just like other characters who fall in that same category,it's not like it only happened once or twice, or in circumstances that come off as PIS or WIS, or from the same writer repeatedly.

To clarify I think anything is possible as far as PIS and WIS is concerned, as most well known characters are subjected to it ever so often, but I think this vulnerability to energy has happened consistently enough on panel to support it being a legit weakness. Thinking on the Onslaught battle when Onslaught made Cyclops blast Bobby the writer could have just had Onslaught shut Bobby down telepathically if he wanted. Same thing recently when Storm shot him with lightning in the Infinity story. The writer could have had Rachel attack Bobby with TP while Storm attacked Super Giant. And with M-11 during the X-Men vs Agents of Atlas his being hurt by the beam didn't effect the story. Bobby was still seen fighting later and passed out while fighting some huge dragon.

On the range of moisture control I am speaking to the physical distance of the moisture. Storm can pull moisture to her location or move it away over a vast range. With Iceman I read the Death Seed story that "unlocked' his full power and saw that he was able to freeze the moisture in the air around the planet with no issue, but in general, at least up to now, he doesn't really move moisture in the air, and only freezes and/or uses what is available to him in his immediate vicinity. If they were near a body of water then this point becomes mute, but in an area where moisture isn't readily accessible outside of what is in the air I think she could diminish the effectiveness of his powers by moving the moisture miles out of his reach.

@vance_astro: "You can't create your own reality, birth children out of thin air, bring people back from the dead and take away and give back powers with the manipulation of "probability". Probability manipulation is what Longshot & Domino have where they effect the "probability" that something will happen. Scarlet Witch can completely change things at will."

That's where Scarlet Witch is a powerful probability manipulator. Longshot and Domino change the probability of things happening a few seconds(if that) in the future. I.e. a guy fires a gun, and they change the probability of the bullet hitting(or not hitting) a specific target.

Scarlet Witch can do it the other way, instead of just changing the probability of what will happen, she can change the probability of what has happened.

If you actually look at all her various feats, she has never made any changes, that couldn't have happened through a different course of actions. I.e. she had children, and M-day.

The other part of her being more powerful, is the range in which her powers can affect things. Where Longshot and Domino are relatively localized, she can affect things on a global+ scale.

"Why would Mimic be Omega? I thought there was limits to his Mimics?"

Unlike his Exiles counter-part, Mimic copies the powers of others completely, instead of at 50%, he also copies their IQ, knowledge, and skills. The 100% instead of 50, might be due to the enhancements he got from Onslaught though. Doesn't change the fact that it is 100% he copies.

And considering the level of some of the people he has copied, I don't see any real upper limit. People like Nate Grey(dark x-men #1), Michael Pointer(same), Rachel Summers, Cable, Sentry, and more.

His Exiles counter-part(though not necessarily indicative of the 616 version's power) has copied Dark Phoenix(from an alternate reality).

Storm couldn't move all moisture away from Iceman since she has water inside her very own body which iceman can take advantage of ,Iceman even said he can take over earth any time he wanted & that no one could stop him which means a bloodlusted Iceman can't be hurt by regular means since he is everywhere at once .

You missed my initial post where I already stated the bold.

And outside of what has been unlocked by the death seed when has he ever moved moisture to him? Not freeze it across the planet and be apart of all moisture as a result of the death seed recently unlocking his potential, but actually redirect it to his vicinity for his use on his own? And prior to the death seed when has he done this?

Iceman doesn't move it he can just create it (hes psionic) since theres moisture every where as my main point is that storm can not completely remove moisture from an area while combating Iceman .

@hellionvulcan: Where is it stated that Bobby creates moisture? Prior to the death seed unlocking his potential, which was too recent to see if he can maintain that level of power and be in control of himself in combat (bloodlust withstanding), I believe Iceman only froze the moisture in his immediate vicinity. Outside of the death seed story, which I don't recall it being stated that he creates his own moisture then either but please correct me if I am wrong, do you have a showing where it states Bobby creates his own moisture? To my knowledge he doesn't.

There was no point in you making a point. My first post specifically stated that outside of Iceman targeting the moisture in her body.If he didn't go for the water In Storm's body then I see no reason why she couldn't remove the atmospheric moisture away from their area so he has nothing to freeze. That point still remains unless you can provide proof that he creates his own moisture (combing oxygen and hydrogen molecules from the air...?), which would be news to me. I don't see how his powers being psionic means anything as it pertains to actually creating moisture.

@vance_astro: I've always thought Storm was an Omega Lvl mutant as well as Bobby.

She's never been confirmed. Only hinted at.

@thunderbolt30: Exactly, didn't Xavier once said he thinks Storm is Omega LvL?

Not that I recall. A sentinel hinted at her being possible omega, another book stated she was in the elite class of mutants that have omega level potential, and in classic uncanny, when she became Rogue-Storm she transformed into a being with lightning for hair and breathed fire and ice, and was uber powerful. I don' think there is anything else outside of these instances.

@thunderbolt30: Fair enough... Thank you for the info.

I don't quite understand her powers any more. I always thought her limitation was that she could only manipulate weather patterns as they naturally exist, that would accurately describe why she's not Omega but there are different things she's shown that have made it hard for me to figure out why she's not Omega at this point.

Scarlet Witch's powers USED TO be limited to probability manipulation. She can alter reality now....

@vance_astro: I like how, instead of giving examples(or even scans) of actual feats, to defend your position. You provide a scan from the same general source, that say Sentry has "potentially limitless power", and flat out states that Squirrel Girl has defeated both Thanos, Terrax and Dr. Doom.

If that is considered a legitimate source for debating material, then I guess I have to set aside my opinion that Sentry is far less powerful than that, and that Squirrel Girl's defeats are mostly PIS.

That said, I concede the point :)

@sirmethos said:

1.If birthing children without being impregnated by anyone and taking away half of the mutant populations powers doesn't prove she's a reality warper, then I don't know what to tell you. I don't know what scans i'm supposed to show to prove my point when you've dismissed instances of her CLEARLY warping reality. Creating two twins out of thin air has NOTHING to do with probability. That CAN'T happen so there's no PROBABILITY it will, no manipulation of the probability field will create this effect. That doesn't even make any sense.

2.Sentry DOES have potentially limitless power. POTENTIALLY<-------------------

3.Squirrel Girl DID defeat Thanos, Terrax, & Dr.Doom on panel.

Sentry is stated to have possibly unlimited power with "MENTAL STABILITY", Sentry's mental state was in bad shape for MOST of the time he existed. Squirrel Girl is a joke character and everyone knows that so I don't really see the point you're making by saying the handbook is wrong for pointing out 3 characters she ACTUALLY defeated and for constantly disregarding what her actual powers are, THAT'S THE POINT of the character, that's the JOKE. Her stats purposely don't match her feats. The Marvel Handbooks may not always be accurate when it comes to the LEVEL of power each character has as far as the rankings, but at the very least they KNOW what each characters powers ARE. I'm saying she can warp reality because i've SEEN her do it. The book (WHICH IS WRITTEN BY A MARVEL WRITER) says she can do it. What argument do you actually have against it? All you've really done is took the feats I presented and said they weren't reality warping and then you're going to try and act is if I don't know what counts as valid evidence in battle forums?

@thunderbolt30 said:

Thanks for your detailed response. I think the reason i'm asking is because I don't really understand why it is that energy attacks do anything different from physical blows. I understand those are two different types of attacks but I don't know what it is about his physiology that makes him susceptible to those type of attacks. Also as far as PIS, if you look at a character like Spider-Man..I feel like his speed is almost always undersold and his speed feats are constantly contradicted by how much he's hit by characters that are slower than him and when he had Spider-Sense, you couldn't even make the case that characters "snuck up on him" or that he didn't "see the attack coming" because he should have. So basically the point I'm making is, i've seen a characters powers completely disregarded when it seems the writer doesn't have any wiggle room because if his speed was written how they should be, most of the characters he's fought over the years wouldn't have even been able to touch him. See where i'm going?

To be clear, i'm not saying this is definitely a case of PIS or bad writing i'm just saying I can see how that would be viable, and I also am having trouble understanding what the weakness is to energy or why he even feels pain considering that he can be broken down in the smaller forms and even other forms of water. How would his nervous system still be in tact the way it is when he's in his human form?

I get what you mean about the range of moisture. I kind of thought that's what you meant, I just wanted to be sure. As far as her completely removing the moisture from the area around him, do you have any scans or have any reference to where she's done something like that? (Not saying she hasn't, but just for my own personal information and for everyone else posting in the thread's sake.)

@bmezy: Then you clearly have no understanding of how Storm's powers operate. the hypothalamus, which is located in the brain, regulates the temp within the body. due to their mutant biology Storm and Bobby's hypothalamus regulate temp to the extreme thus he can transform his body into organic matter and she can adapt to even the harshest conditions. Her body subconsciously regulates temperature in and round her all the time making her highly resistant. 30+ years of development however has placed her to be immune to the elements. It's been stated and displayed on panel numerous times. She's endure being in the atmosphere where it is so cold and so thin a human would die in minutes (she was up there for hours) and proceeded to channel a hyper blizzard through herself to spread it across the entire North America. Hell she's even held Iceman while he unleashed near absolute zero cold and was unaffected. Even recently she's escaped Bobby's flash freeze with no harm done to herself. if he's going to freeze her internally he will have to overcome her subconscious which I don't see him pulling off.

@vance_astro:

Kind of. I don't believe she has been in a combat situation where she needed to do that specifically on a large scale, but she has done it in a more localized attack. Here she is removing the moisture out of the air around Magneto to subtlely dehydrate him:

Gallery

There is also this example from when Ororo first started learning how to use her powers. During a severe drought in her village she used her powers to generate a rainstorm that lasted several days. What she hadn't realized is that she didn't create the moisture needed for the storm, but that she actually pulled the moisture from somewhere else, which caused a severe drought in that location:

This may also be helpful. Here she has amplified the effectiveness of Iceman's powers by drawing a low level blanket of moisture in the air around them so that he would automatically freezing it. Conversely, she should be able to do take the same approach by removing the moisture in the air for the opposite effect:

Sorry about the picture alignment. I can't seem to get it to look neater when I tried to edit the post.

@thunderbolt30 said:

@vance_astro:

Kind of. I don't believe she has been in a combat situation where she needed to do that specifically on a large scale, but she has done it in a more localized attack. Here she is removing the moisture out of the air around Magneto to subtlely dehydrate him:

Gallery

There is also this example from when Ororo first started learning how to use her powers. During a severe drought in her village she used her powers to generate a rainstorm that lasted several days. What she hadn't realized is that she didn't create the moisture needed for the storm, but that she actually pulled the moisture from somewhere else, which caused a severe drought in that location:

This may also be helpful. Here she has amplified the effectiveness of Iceman's powers by drawing a low level blanket of moisture in the air around them so that he would automatically freezing it. Conversely, she should be able to do take the same approach by removing the moisture in the air for the opposite effect:

Sorry about the picture alignment. I can't seem to get it to look neater when I tried to edit the post.

Thanks for these scans.

@vance_astro:

1. I already explained, in one of my earlier points, how those two incidents are not necessarily reality warping. It seems I didn't explain it well enough, since you obviously didn't get it, and as such, I apologize for my explanation being, apparently, lacking.

Regardless, it has been pointed out to me, that M-Day, was done via her magic, not her "power", in a PM.

Creating her twins, as I already pointed out in one of my previous posts, is very possible via her Probability Manipulation.

in changing, not what can/will happen, but what has happened, Wanda effectively changes probability backwards in time. How her twins were created through that, should be obvious. And she could have made M-day happen the same way.

But I already conceded the point, so it's pointless to keep arguing about that :)

2. I'm aware that Squirrel Girl is a joke character, and yet whenever her beating Thanos, Dr. Doom, etc. comes up, people disregard it as PIS. If the handbook is considered a legitimate source, then they can no longer be disregarded as such, since those feats have been officially recognized.

As a side-note, related to point 1. How would you define Reality Warping?

I'm curious about how much(or how little) it would take for a character to be, by you, considered a Reality Warper, without an official classification as such.

And additionally, in your opinion, in a straight up fight, can someone who is not a reality warper, defeat a reality warper who has control of his/her powers?